SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The context of my post is not for you to do anything to destroy your self esteem, but on the contrary..to get your self esteem back. If you want your marriage back then that's a bonus to you reclaiming yourself.

But, you see, what you are suggesting - the exposing of the A to snap everyone back to reality, becoming the OPs' worst nightmare etc., these are the suggestions I'm objecting to. Yes, they may work, but at what cost to the BS. I've never had to do any of it, and I still feel like my H is with me only because he couldn't have her, if I had to resort to maneuvers like that in order to keep him, it would kill me - my ego would cause me to die of sheer torment and humiliation, especially since everyone around us would know (because I told them). I think people like Sandra Bullock have everyone's respect because of how they handled it - they did not fight, rant, act up, nothing - they just quietly and immediately filed for D. That is the only way to preserve your sanity, integrity and self-esteem - Spouse, you wanted someone else, you are free to have them, have a nice life! Everything else is a horrible compromise, and the more you DO the more pathetic you look. Just my opinion, of course.

[This message edited by skylers_mom at 8:30 AM, June 7th (Monday)]

skyler's mom,

there are people on this site who have done exactly as sandra bullock has done and there are some that have done some of the things I mentioned.

There are men and women on this site and others who have done the things I posted about and recovered their marriage. I have heard some say that they had struggled with wanting the marriage after fighting so hard. Some have said they are glad they fought for it. it depends on the individual.

If you feel that it is losing your self respect to fight for it then please do not. Do what you know you can be proud to live with.

However for those who choose and have chosen to fight, I am just offering encouragement.

Heartless Bytch,

So very sorry for your situation.

However, unless you were a saint and the WS has a serious disorder that needs attention, there may be some things in you that need attention.

Actually, several serious disorders.

WH5,

Thank YOU...for your comment

UR_AN_IDIOT,

You crack me up. Sounding like the lunchroom bully

TrulyReconciled, My sympathies for the several disorders..that has(had?) to be tough.

floridaredman, I do like your post and did get what you were saying originally ... but still appreciated the edited versions by the others too

I think every situation/affair is different and every BS is at a different point in their life.

In my case I sort 180'd the night of dday ... but 180 with the intent to D. Because my FWH wanted the M, he started taking steps to prove that .... once I decided to give it a chance, he became somewhat "foggy" and blame-shifted/gaslit a bit. I still have missing parts but we are a lot father than we were just 2 weeks ago.... mainly cuz I think I did fight to get him out of that foggy state of mind and cuz I had support here at SI.

I do think though depending on the circumstances, I may have chosen not to fight. If he was so foggy in a SA lifestyle & not willing to get help .... or if he continued to leave the house and go sleep with OW .... I just don't know if I would care to "fight" any longer. I can't say for sure because I'm not in that situation but I applause any of those who have stayed in the deepest darkest hours and now have a better S because of it ..... I know people can change and I deeply believe in commitment but I also know how hard of a struggle it's been (still is) for me and my FWH is really trying. I just think I would say "fine, live like that but live without me" .... I gave FWH the choice many times the first couple weeks of R, calmly saying "you have a choice, you don't have to stay married, I won't make a D hard for you" ......

IDK, I think your post is great and like the answers it's getting. Just think everyone's situation is unique even though we are all on the same boat.

broken13,

Thank you for that

This confuses me:

If it's an exit affair and they are POSITIVE that it's over (because WS's will say that the marriage is over in fogspeak) then let it go.

If WS's in the fog say the M is over, then how are you supposed to know if it's an exit A or not?

and I still feel like my H is with me only because he couldn't have her

skylers_mom, perhaps that is what colors your view of those who didn't just quietly divorce as "pathetic".

JMO.

tennispro4,

In an exit affair a WS will not have any part of the BS afterwards. The exit affair is the nail in the coffin.

You judge by actions and not words.

A foggy WS will say one thing but their actions are what you should watch.

They will say the marriage is over, but not really do anything to end it.

An exit affair is when the WS has already left the marriage, mind body and soul and seals the deal by having an affair so the BS won't want them back. Sometimes the exit affair backfires when the WS realizes how much the BS cares after the affair is revealed.

I don't know if it's worth fighting. Resolving to simply D and move on has done wonders for my sanity.

I suppose if my wife had come clean, told me the truth, and expressed remorse, I would have been willing to try R for a few months, but she has done nothing but deny and lie. She is terrified of herself, and now that is no longer my problem.

HA! romanticidiot, I'm with you.

BTDT, got the t shirt and it still did me no good.

(ETA: Sorry mods; misused the forum.)

[This message edited by Sad in AZ at 12:10 AM, June 8th (Tuesday)]

and I still feel like my H is with me only because he couldn't have her

skylers_mom, perhaps that is what colors your view of those who didn't just quietly divorce as "pathetic".

JMO.

What I view as pathetic is any activity designed to "win over" a romantic partner who clearly prefers someone else. Even without infidelity involved - think about some HS drama, kid A getting involved in crazy antics to get the attention of kid B, when everyone knows that B would much rather date kid C (how is that for gender neutral? ). After a while isn't everyone looking at kid A thinking "aw come on, don't you have any self-respect/value your dignity - the harder you try the dumber you look..." Unfortunately, the one thing all As have in common is that at some point, when presented with a choice, the WS chooses in favor of the OP. Then, if the situation doesn't work out for whatever reason, the WS ends up back with the BS. And no matter how favorable the circumstances, the best one being that the WS wakes up and realizes that his BS totally rocks compared to the OP, there will always be a "history" of that M where the BS was not the preferred choice. It just so happens that this particular aspect haunts me to no end, but its existence is 100% true for every BS in every A. The only thing that varies is the BS's ability to tolerate it/get over it/whatever you want to call it, possibly even rationalize it away so that she can live with it, and with herself. If you have a less than ideal scenario, i.e. the BS has to resort to and more more (or less) dramatic moves in order to keep the A from continuing and "make" the WS to chose her after all, the more she will end up looking (and feeling!) like the kid A in my HS example. Personally, I find it yucky - been trying to live with this since 2001 and it's so not working for me. Telling someone to fight hard, do whatever it takes to stop the A, etc. sounds to me like encouraging them to hurt themselves worse. Even if she succeeds, is any M really more valuable than one's self-respect? The OP in 99% of the As didn't have to fight nearly as hard to "get" the WS - all she had to do is just be her irresistible self. And what will happen to the BS in the (very unlikely) scenario where she fights like hell, and loses anyway - her WS and the OP ride off into the sunset, laughing hysterically at the desperate BS's psycho moves (in their opinion at least) and then live happily ever after. Wouldn't she be infinitely, infinitely better off if she had pulled a Sandra Bullock on them?

Besides, isn't all this "fighting for the M" a total contradiction of the 180 we've been recommending here? The 180 sounds a lot healthier to me.

[This message edited by skylers_mom at 4:41 AM, June 8th (Tuesday)]

skylers mom,

my FWW didnt prefer anyone else... she allways prefered me. But she had insecurities and feelings that she wanted to fix. She looked to what had mad her feel better in the past, trialed it, found that it provided a short term respise but didnt cure anything so needed to keep applying it. She did not see that she wasnt really fixing the problem just soothing the symptoms. she did not see that she could have got the same respite within the M if she had been willing to fight for it... but really at no point did she ever prefer her AP over Me... her AP's could have been anyone... hell half the time they were.

Infidelity and its dynamic is not like the dating he likes her she like the otherguy dynamic in HS Drama's... IMHO its a poor metaphor, because it doesnt provide any real insight into our situations.

You ask what do you get if you want to R and you give it 100% you 'fight' to save your M, and fail anyway? What you get is the knowledge that you gave it your best effort, you gave it 100%, you didnt hold back and self-sabotage the R. With that knowledge you can walk proudly in front of your friends, your family, and your children. You can go on with your life free from any guilt .

The 180 is not a contradiction of fighting for the marriage as FM tried to so in-eloquantly say... rather it is one of the tools that you can use to fight for the M... you can fight for the M by becoming a stronger, more self aware, more self reliant person. you can fight for the M by continuing to verify for as long as it takes to feel secure again. You can fight for the M by kicking your spouse off the fence and forcing them to make a decision between you and the AP. You can also fight for the M by overcoming your fears and extending them some trust even though the chance exists that it will be abused. you can fight for your M by trying to control you own obsessions, and yes you can even fight for your M by listening to what your WS says and by trying to address their concerns and needs.

Personally i dont really like the term Fight for your M... in someways i do agree that it is an oxymoron. I think the message would have come across much better had FM used the phrase fight for yourself. ... not that i like that either... fight impies one against the other...

become a protagonist, a champion for yourself.

that is what i strive to achieve.

Thank you for further explaining what I meant Sour Cherry drops.

I wrote out the post in sort of a "football coach" dynamic.

It came across as too aggressive.

And set people off balance. The context of it was to fight for yourself..fight for what you want

Here is the definiition of fight. A WS becomes an enemy of a marriage and you have to go to battle with them either to regain your marriage(if you want that) or just your sanity and self-respect. It's not a physical fight..but a mental one.

fight   

–noun

1.a battle or combat.

2.any contest or struggle: a fight for recovery from an illness.

3.an angry argument or disagreement: Whenever we discuss politics, we end up in a fight.

4.Boxing. a bout or contest.

5.a game or diversion in which the participants hit or pelt each other with something harmless: a pillow fight; a water fight.

6.ability, will, or inclination to fight: There was no fight left in him.

–verb (used without object)

7.to engage in battle or in single combat; attempt to defend oneself against or to subdue, defeat, or destroy an adversary.

8.to contend in any manner; strive vigorously for or against something: He fought bravely against despair.

–verb (used with object)

9.to contend with in battle or combat; war against: England fought Germany.

10.to contend with or against in any manner: to fight despair; to fight the passage of a bill.

11.to carry on (a battle, duel, etc.).

12.to maintain (a cause, quarrel, etc.) by fighting or contending.

13.to make (one's way) by fighting or striving.

14.to cause or set (a boxer, animal, etc.) to fight.

15.to manage or maneuver (troops, ships, guns, planes, etc.) in battle.

—Idioms

16.fight it out, to fight until a decision is reached: Let them fight it out among themselves.

17.fight shy of. shy1 (def. 12).

18.fight with windmills.

There are many terms for fighting. I understand the apprehensiveness at the word.

floridaredman, what exactly did your wife do to fight back? From the history posted on your profile, it doesn't appear she did anything. You'd moved onto a life with your OP and turned your back on your wife and your kids. The only reason you ended up back with your wife a year later was because you discovered your OP was cheating on you.

Are you now saying there was something your wife should have done differently?

I hear what skylersmom is saying and have to agree, simply because that's what makes choosing to R so damn hard.

If my FWW had during her A decided I was awesome and it was her insecurities and so on and so forth she would have been adult enough to not betray me for her own selfish reasons. She came out of her fog recently and can see that now, but at the time.. no, I was not worth it.

That is what I mean by shadowboxing. If it is a fog, then engaging in a conflict simply validates it as real and worthwhile. OM was not competition not just because I had no idea but because FWW's perspective on reality was busted. It isn't a fight to stop dumping resources into that hole, or climb out of it, unless you are in a frame of mind to accept that the WS view is real.

I see a windmill and can't help but tilt, but there is a major difference between asserting yourself and entering a conflict, imo.

lieshurt..no. I left the home and my wife did not have to deal with me flip flopping between her and the OP. It disgusts me now to even have to type that.

Reality hit me rather quickly when the OP cheated.

My wife totally 180'd me. Only called me when the kids needed something.

I didn't deserve a chance back, but she gave me it.

I wanted to come back..my wife didn't have to fight..I did.

My wife had ground rules and boundaries when I came back.

I couldn't have a cell phone(this lasted 2 years)

I couldn't go on the internet(this lasted 2 and a half years)

I just went work church and home.

I see a lot of BS's dealing with foggy WS's and It is painful to know that I once caused that kind of pain.

So knowing what a WS thinks, I tell them to fight back.

I went through the pain of betraying my wife and the pain of my own infidelity crashing around me.

I did not subject my wife to the pain of my infidelity..that was mine to bear, I just did whatever she asked.

OH yes..I came back after what the OP did, but it was not without consequences.

My wife laid down the guidelines and I followed them.

I will never go down that path again.

Gosh, I really don't want to come across as someone who has to get the last word, so I promise I will shut up after this one.

my FWW didnt prefer anyone else... she allways prefered me.

See, if you can find a way to convince yourself of that, that's half the battle right there. I can't help but believe that every time my H went ahead and fucked his OW, he was choosing her, because he could have spent the same time (and have the same sex) with me.

But she had insecurities and feelings that she wanted to fix. She looked to what had mad her feel better in the past, trialed it, found that it provided a short term respise but didnt cure anything so needed to keep applying it. She did not see that she wasnt really fixing the problem just soothing the symptoms. she did not see that she could have got the same respite within the M if she had been willing to fight for it... but really at no point did she ever prefer her AP over Me... her AP's could have been anyone... hell half the time they were.

Well, I had insecurities too and getting several guys in bed would have built up my ego too, yet I didn't screw around on my H because it was my preference to be with him rather than anyone else. This is the rationalization I mentioned earlier - for the life of me I can't come up with one for my own situation, I mean I can come up with some (and my FWH got really creative with them) but in the end my cold, rational left brain doesn't buy any of them. He wanted to fuck her so much that the risk of losing me was an acceptable price to pay - that's _preference_ period. So what that he told her that he loved me after they were done (actions? vs words? which one speaks louder? )

I've never been in your shoes (multiple OPs) but I can sort of imagine that it lessens the specialness of any one of them - after all none of them was special enough if your WW kept on finding more. That perhaps makes it easier for the BS to truly believe that their WS's behavior does not reflect on them, that the OPs were/could have been anyone, etc. etc.

Infidelity and its dynamic is not like the dating he likes her she like the otherguy dynamic in HS Drama's... IMHO its a poor metaphor, because it doesnt provide any real insight into our situations.

I can see how with multiple OPs my HS drama metaphor doesn't really apply. It very much applied to mine and everyone else's whose WS is not a serial (mine never cheated on any previous GFs) and only had one OW.

You ask what do you get if you want to R and you give it 100% you 'fight' to save your M, and fail anyway? What you get is the knowledge that you gave it your best effort, you gave it 100%, you didnt hold back and self-sabotage the R. With that knowledge you can walk proudly in front of your friends, your family, and your children. You can go on with your life free from any guilt .

OMG, that just so depends on what you can live with. I couldn't walk proudly in front of anyone knowing that I had invested the best 20 yrs of my life, and in the last stretch fought like mad to hang on to some guy who in the end said "piss on you, I just used you for all these years, until finally the love of my life came along". I'll take "venom spewing bitch" over "honorable, gracious loser" any day. Better yet, if you can keep your wits about you and your emotions under control, be a Sandra Bullock :-)

The 180 is not a contradiction of fighting for the marriage as FM tried to so in-eloquantly say...

I disagree. If you take action to fuck with the OPs life, to expose the A to everyone you know and their uncle, that's devoting energy to THEM, the exact opposite of the 180. The 180 is not supposed to be the tool to get them back (although some do). And the reason why I like it is because it help the BS preserve whatever little shreds of dignity she/he has left. If the WS comes back crawling, begs for forgiveness and a second chance, then MAYBE you could consider giving them one without compromising too much of yourself. Anything else is self-sabotage, and the opposite of "fighting for yourself" imho.

So skyler's_mom,

Are you saying that those BS's who fought for their marriage compromised their dignity, even if the marriage survived? Just curious

hmmmm ... this is interesting. I'm sorta agreeing with skylers_mom answers to SourCherryDrops..... but it's one of those things that I haven't been in those shoes so I can't say for sure. I just don't honestly believe that I would feel like I had any dignity left if I fought for a serial cheater ... or even a cheater that was cake-eating while saying he was in full R. My heart sinks to my stomach when I read some of the SI members sig lines and see the multiple ddays over many years

AND I'm not saying that floridaredman, you wife doesn't have dignity .... or SourCherryDrops, you either (anyone in this type of situation). I'm just saying that for me personally I would feel like the biggest loser. I think every situation is unique and I don't judge. I just feel that I would have no self esteem left and would lose myself and everything I stand for if I had to fight for someone to show me the love and respect I deserve.

Right now, if I found out anything was happening with my FWH, I wouldn't think twice. I'd be gone. It's a deal breaker ... I don't want someone that doesn't want me. Maybe I don't understand the FOG completely but I'm not going to beg for someone to be with me. I mean how many chances do one offer another that keeps stomping their heart in the dirt? I flat out told FWH to go and live that life. I would rather be alone than lonely and with him. He said he didn't want to and to the best of my knowledge is 100% in this R.

I guess to me it's cut and dry. I played games with my first husband. I was young and insecure and didn't think I could live without him. I am completely and deeply in love with my husband now.... never, ever thought we'd be going through this. I just refuse to stay with someone that would continual to disrespect me, our M and our vows. I mean this is not a joke that we are in, it's a commitment. Either get on board or get off.

I do believe fighting for the M if both people are committed to the R. I know there are set backs and it's all baby steps. I just don't understand how people can ever get past multiple A or even the WS leaving and living for a bit with the AP before coming back. I ever told FWH that a separation wouldn't work. It's M or D. All or none.

I'll keep reading this thread .... interesting