SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Grieving is not something just a BS experiences. A WS lost themselves, what they valued, what their self worth was. All those things have to be grieved as well.

Though not always true in some cases but with my FWH - he not only had to grieve as above - but he had to grieve his feeling of loss of the very intense feelings he had with the OW.

That part really sucks to see your H work on "getting over" his lover - while we are working on our M and R - and I'm working on healing.

That was (and still is to a certain degree) extremely hard to deal with while we were going through the early months of R. It's been almost a year now since DDay - and he has definitely gotten "over" those early stages of a "lost loved" (as he thought), but the scary part is - I think he hasn't completely "gotten over" the illusion of how "GREAT" it was - and still at times compres that to us - especially when we have a disagreement - and he wonders "whats wrong with us" "why can't we get along" "why isn't it more natural" "we always off tempo". I know he's thinking and comparing that moment (and ultmately us) to that fantasy and illusion he thought (though he said he felt like it) he was in.

Wow- tough topic...

After d-day and for about 9 months, I would have agreed with Wincing entire. However, when a wayward is seriously remorseful-- or at least in shock by their own behavior-- setting themselves aside to address the pain of the betrayed is somewhat counter productive.

The complexity of the issues in a marriage before an affair combined with the aftermath for both the wayard and the betrayed suggest that focus needs to be on healing both people.

I've noticed how we say that an affair is the result of something broken inside the wayard-- this is true-- and expecting them to ignore what is broken or keep it quiet while the betrayed tries to rebuild can cause more harm than good. It forces one of the behavior characteristics that contributed to the affair in the first place-- compartmentalizing.

Perhaps not for all-- but looking back over my nightmare-- I realize that much of my xWW reluctance to embrace what I thought I needed was not her refusing to be accountable, it was about her being shocked and overwhelmed by her choice and behavior during the affair- and how it impacted every stakeholder-- family, the littles, us...

The stumbling block to addressing this was a pre affair marriage issue (juvenile communication conflict skills for both of us) and, sadly, healing for both of us in a relationship could not begin in a rational way until we addressed this. What I thought was her refusal to be accountable was her not knowing how to communicate what she really felt. My only communication was the anger shield masking my hurt. I had no idea that what I wanted from her would come from her working on herself. I did not notice that healing from this was something I could do inside myself- and that I needed to address my own pain regardless of who caused it.

It would have been better if we could discuss this like grown ups after d-day (before would have prevented this whole nightmare). We could have recognized and supported our internal recoveries while recognizing that we are responsible for our behavior and not relying on the spouse for things we should find in ourselves.

1985 has helped us in this process (not that xWW has ever come here-- she hates this place) by helping me realize something that I sort of knew but never pinpointed until one of her posts-- our marriage had problems and pain before the affair,that pain is real and valid, and comparing them so one gets addressed before the other negates both.

Dealing with my grief is a hard difficult process-- and so is my xWW's. If we ignore one for the other we would get nowhere.

I think Wincing's post is valid for both when R is a consideration. As people we can offer the same sort of support without giving up our need for the same thing. In my head I think that is what a good relationship is all about. I just wished I could of, we could have, figured that out sooner.

Great topic. I love you people. Wish my xWW would come here.

Q

Of course hindsight is great.

This is a great topic.

okay....

So everyone is grieving.

BS and WS.

I didn't realize this had become a trip to WHO DESERVES MORE COMPASSION, RECOGNITION, HUMANITY, MERCY, etc...LAND.

I missed the bus that took me to the city of SOMEONE ELSE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR HEALING ME?

Somehow, somewhere I arrived in the land of I AM THE ONLY ONE RESPONSIBLE AND CAPABLE OF HEALING MYSELF.

Plausibly, I slept through the state of GIVING EMPATHY TO WS MEANS THAT I CONDONE OR APPROVE WHAT WS DID.

I must have dozed off sometime after the EMPATHY AND FORGIVENESS MEANS YOU CANNOT ASSERT PERSONAL BOUNDARIES AND MAKE CHOICES WHEN WS OR BS CONTINUE TO CRUSH AFOREMENTIONED BOUNDARIES/EXPECTATIONS exit ramp.

I mean, really, who WOULDN'T have missed that exit ramp sign? It was so drawn out and convoluted! Yanno?

I have a fabulous NEW home in the land of I AM THE ONLY ONE RESPONSIBLE AND CAPABLE OF HEALING MYSELF. I currently share it with my WS who keeps trying to redecorate into a home that would be more appreciated and marketable in the land of I FEEL REGRET FOR WHAT I HAVE DONE AND WILL MAKE ANY EFFORT TO REPAIR THIS FOR YOU RATHER THAN FOR MYSELF SINCE THAT WOULD REQUIRE ME TO LOOK INSIDE AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WHICH IS BROKEN IN ME AND THAT WHICH I HATE ABOUT MYSELF SO IT IS EASIER TO PLACATE YOU WITH THE APPEARANCE OF REMORSE AND LOVE FOR YOU WHEN I KNOW I WILL NEVER LOVE YOU UNTIL I LOVE MYSELF AND I JUST DON'T WANT TO FACE THAT GUILT, SHAME AND SELF LOATHING SO DEAL WITH WHAT I AM WILLING TO OFFER YOU BECAUSE IT IS THE BEST I AM WILLING TO DO.

So, when WH tries to redecorate I remind WH that WE AGREED to live in this new home with communicated expectations from both of us as to what living in this new home was going to be. And I re-affirm my love and hope and belief in WH. And I re-affirm that WH's choice to redecorate and crush the new expectations negates the reason we chose to move into our new home in the first place.

I love off-the-wall ways of reminding myself that I am the keeper of me. That WH is the keeper of him. And that we must define for ourselves, and communicate to our spouse, what it is that we are willing to live with in the M. Now THAT can change at any given time as we grow and heal individually and as a couple. But personal responsibility for your own happiness and healing is just that, your own. Ownership, repentance for our individual choices is our own, as well.

As a BS, I have empathy for the feelings that plague my WH. I cannot change those. As my WH cannot change the feelings that I must process in order for me to heal from this betrayal.

I can offer my own responsibility to heal myself. I can offer repentance for hurts I have caused my WH by my choices, regardless of WHY I felt and responded the way I did. I can offer an opportunity for forgiveness. I can offer an opportunity for reconciliation. I can offer an opportunity to work together on building a solid marriage from the ashes of what we have now.

We are all responsible for our own choices. As a child/adult that has been, throughout this lifetime, on the receiving end of abuse/neglect/molestation from my Grandfather, Father, Mother, Sisters and extended family (in relation to the aforementioned abuse), I can truly say BTDT to the self-loathing WS must feel.

So, yah, I get it.

It just never occurred to me to use my pain for what I have done in my life,or what has been done to me,as reasoning that I am not capable of repenting for what I have done to someone else and then not taking the steps to seek forgiveness and change my heart. Because I am the only one that can do that.

It doesn't negate anyone's feelings. If anything it affirms both WS and BS feelings. It just says that you are responsible for what you do with those feelings. And only you. And you are responsible for either holding onto those feelings or choosing to see the truth in the lies you chose to believe about YOURSELF. Then replace those lies with the truth.

I am having a verbal vomit moment. I would blame it on something or someone; however that would be counterproductive to everything I just typed.

SO, I say "love to ALL of you, WS and BS" and know that you are capable and worthy of the effort, the effort to flush the hurt and lies out of YOUR LIFE and rediscover the amazing person that remains.

Truth is, Emerson was right, "we must be our OWN before we can be ANOTHERS"...

Y'all have a FABULOUS DAY!!!!!

(((grief topic)))

[This message edited by let it be me at 2:35 PM, September 7th (Tuesday)]

Wow! Thanks let_it_be_me. That was a really great post. Read it twice already and I'll be reading it again. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and insight.

This has helped pierce the pain of inadequacy and worthlessness that has dogged me and been my constant companion since learning of the affair. It is almost a surreal feeling to begin to realize that I do not have to worry about what I did wrong or about the "why" in the actions of my spouse. I cannot be accountable for someone else's choices, decisions, and the resulting repercussions. It wasn't anything wrong with me; such a justification only prevents necessary introspection. Obviously I can't answer the "why" try as I might. While it may be painful it's not an excercise for my benefit.

I feel in so much of this I've been working on two fronts. It's only been a disservice to each of us. Thank you for helping me to identify and clarify some of the fundamental errors in my thinking that have created fruitless circular thinking.

All affair are different, all marriages are different, and all reconciliation is different.

As a WS, I knew I had destroyed my marriage, no doubt about it. I had thrown in the towel and decided it was over and gave myself permission to have an affair.

If my BS had tried to get me to fix our marriage, it would not have happened. He wanted a new start, he welcomed me back to our marriage with love and open arms. I was not asking this of him. I was not even sure that this is what I wanted at first. I still cared about him and wanted to try for his sake and for the kids and also for mine because I wanted to like myself.

In our situation, we would never have reconciled if my H behaved the way described on here. It would have just confirmed my belief that we could not recover and that our marriage was over.

That is not to say that I was not willing to do all the things that we read about that would be good for rebuilding: No contact, complete transparency, honesty about all affair related and pre-affair related details. But, so was my H willing to do all the things he read about that would help us recover as well.

Most of all, he was willing to listen to me about the things that I had been unhappy about for many years, and tried numerous times to tell him.

I think that in our relationship I had been the one to put in the 80% for many, many years. Perhaps this is why he decided he was willing to put in 80% in order to save us.

I am so happy I joined this website. I have only a couple people to talk to about this, and I feel like I am annoying and obsessive. Plus, my mom is one of those people and she just tells me I will never get over it, that I will probably get divorced.

Anyway, this post truly touched me. I really do feel my husband is dead. I grieve for him every time I think about a date before the day he left me and had an affair with someone else. (actually the emotional affair started before that, but he vehemently denies that. Says they were just friends.) I feel like I am being overdramatic by saying that I feel like my husband is gone. I even feel like part of my self has been murdered. I will never be that trusting woman who felt so blessed to have a man that treated me like a queen. Anyway, thank you for this post.

Thank you W_S, love the post and sent to my FWH. It certainly describes the weather here in FL and my emotions from minute to minute

Onlysolution-

I'm glad that you and your H have been able to navigate R. I've really appreciated this thread for providing other perspectives and what has worked.

I was hoping you would further explain what you meant when you said

"In our situation, we would never have reconciled if my H behaved the way described on here. It would have just confirmed my belief that we could not recover and that our marriage was over."

Does this mean he unequivocally knew he wanted to R independent of you and didn't waver? No anger or uncertainty? I ask mainly out of sheer amazement at that kind of strength and self-assuredness. How long was it before you committed to fixing the marriage? Does it make sense to you that as a BS I feel/felt more like you and I needed him to be sure?

Thank you. I edited to clarify after re-reading wincings original post.

[This message edited by lucidlunacy at 8:15 PM, September 7th (Tuesday)]

1.) I agree with both W_S and Uncertainone. As a previous poster said, one doesn't have to be wrong for the other to be right.

2.) Wincings, what you said in your initial post describes to a perfect T why my XH and I rug-swept after my first A and could not try to reconcile after the second. He was completely unwilling---and understandably so---both times to go through that up/down/sideways swing of emotions that would have been required to work through the aftermath of my betrayal(s). And me? I'm honestly not sure. I like to say I could have hung in there...but I'll never know.

BW here - two years out.

Wincing's post is spot on. I'd do just about ANYTHING for my WH to have written it.

This escpially resonates with me:

Yes we (WSes) do have grief... The caveat is that a WS caused their own grief. They inflicted this pain on themselves. I inflicted my pain on myself. I slit my own wrists, I killed my marriage and I killed who I thought I was. That is something that I had to work out myself. I had to do it myself. How hateful would it have been of me to expect my BH to help me fix myself when he was doing everything he could to bind up his own wounds?

My FWH and I have had many conversation about his pain and his grief - and while I know what he did does pain him, it was HIS doing.

Marriage problems may be 50/50 - but I didn't run to someone else and betray the person I vowed to not to.

It's not about comparing pain - it about understanding the other's pain.

It's not about comparing pain - it about understanding the other's pain.

That was actually my whole point to begin with. It got broken down to was wincing right or was I right.

The views aren't diametrically opposed. My problem with the post to begin with, and I tried to be very clear, was that it was missing a voice. The WS's. And yes we do have one.

Do you all think that WS's here don't get that the BS is in pain and we caused that pain? My issue was in this forum, unlike most others, we have over 10 posts that have been written describing what a BS feels and how a WS needs to react. Most of us live with our BS and if we don't we have and have seen the pain and devastation caused.

We all signed up here, most of us right after d day, knowing that our marriages may not make it and that we had to do whatever we could to save it. Read the WS's posts.

Coming to this forum and being told "a BS is in pain and you caused it so you either have to deal or get out" is not helpful, nor is it true.

We grieve. We have no reference materials on here about that. We have anger. We have pain. We hurt.

My husband is a firefighter. He responds to serious accidents all the time caused many times by speed, drunk driving, not paying attention. Many are catastrophic and have multiple injuries.

He doesn't stand over the mangled bodies of the people that caused it and lecture them on the dangers of speeding and how it affected others at the scene. Would it be true? Of course, but not the time. He triages. He stops the bleeding. He stablizes. He transports. Then the lessons can begin.

That's how I view the WS forum here. It's triage for the newbies and once they're stablized the lessons can begin from WS's and BS's alike that can share their pain, their solutions in dealing with common challenges.

WS's have not given up their right to feel, exist, hurt, and start the incredibly hard road to healing, growth and actuality with support from others that have also traveled that path.

We have a voice.

ETA: I'd do just about ANYTHING for my WH to have written it.

Many of the WS's on this forum have written this. The do it every day with their responses to newbies, their posts, and with their spouses (those that have successfully R, or SO's for those that have successfully moved on).

I undertand many BS's wish their WS felt these things. I'm sorry they haven't joined and done the hard work the WS's here have and are. Hopefully they will.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 10:43 AM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

Helping the BS Heal, What Can We Do

Rebouling trust

Things that every WS needs to know

How much does my BS hurt?

The Life Boat

4 H's and 4 R's

I agree with UO, there's no 'guide' / 'How to' about WS's grief and healing, just single experiences.

Maybe someone should write down something significant.

Most of material is directed to how WSs should help theirs BSs.

Lost...Exactly. I'm working on one right now. I hope I can count on the wise WS's on this site for help and contributions. I'm trying to piece together some of the amazing posts from them that have helped me.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Also:

If you think you could never do this but you did (Brokenroad)

Helpful books (Fallen)

Maia's withdrawal guide (Maia, presumedly)

I'll edit the links in later, now time to go home.

~L.

there's some really great posts out there...uncertainone, you are definitely on to something.....there is something to be said about a WS who makes the choice to come here and open themselves up to the both the support and constructive criticism this community has to offer. that's brave...especially considering the labels (generally they are earned) that WS's are cowards, liars, avoid conflict, etc. I'm sure we can all remember those WS's who have left and never returned after being called on their shit...they weren't ready...maybe they never will be..but, the rest of us who make the Wayward Forum - we're here...we own our shit daily...we help others do the same...that is no easy task...

[This message edited by MissesJai at 10:49 AM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

Coming to this forum and being told "a BS is in pain and you caused it so you either have to deal or get out" is not helpful, nor is it true.

I read and read and read your post over and over and over....

Then I started humming the theme song to Phineas and Ferb in my head, smiled thinking about Perry the Platypus, and found myself troubled.

You're thinking, "Of course you are troubled...You are sincerely enjoying humming the title sequence to a Disney cartoon show!".

I see that. Okay. Fair shot.

I shall reveal, here in front of all you witnesses, that is NOT what troubled me. Well at least not this time.

That quote. Above.

It IS true. So very very very very very true that the 'WS needs to deal with it' or get out.

Just like the BS needs to deal with the WS pain, hurt, guilt, shame (etc...) or get out.

Both statements are accurate.

The decision is as individual as, well, the individuals making the decisions....

You do have to deal with the consequences of your actions as well as the consequences of actions that were done to you.

I think most of us are here because along the line, we forgot that. Put our happiness on others and defined that happiness within our expectations of how OTHERS should act towards us and what it means about us if they, heaven forbid, don't!?!?!?!

Hows that workin' for me now?

Not so good, I must say.

My WH has caused this pain.

My WH must deal with how I process that in order for us to stay M.

My WH is in pain for what he has done.

I must deal with how WH processes that in order for us to stay M.

Truth.

Reading between the lines I come up with this nugget of wisdom for myself. And yes, I am currently in negotiations with the fortune cookie companies to mass produce this in their brilliantly marketed Chinese version of the Magic 8 Ball.....

It is my individual decision what I am willing to accept in this M with WH.

It is my WH's individual decision what he is willing to accept in this M with me.

Combine the aforementioned statements and you have a formula that works for EVERY A, regardless of the specific circumstances.

The devil is in the details. HOW that is going to work for us is different than HOW that is going to work for y'all.

There is no secret pill or miracle laser treatment that will fix everyone's individual circumstances.

WH, you must deal with my grief over the trauma you have brought into my life or get out.

I must deal with your grief over the trauma you have brought into my life or I need to get out.

We both, WH and I, must decide for ourselves (and communicate clearly and with respect) what boundaries we have set on this process and continually communicate our feelings on this as/if our boundaries change.

WH and I can either accept,respect and fulfill our grief healing within those boundaries or we need to "get the hell out".

I cannot control whether WH will respect how I grieve.

WH cannot control whether I will respect how WH grieves.

That does not mean either of us don't deserve to grieve OR that either of us must put up with any unhealthy behaviors in the others grieving process. It just means put up (respect others grieving process and boundaries) or shut up and get out.

So, in summation (and y'all are going FINALLY this chick is soooo long-winded if you have even made it this far in the post), I do not necessarily agree with your opinion (and yet still love you as a person and respect your right to disagree ) and DO believe that the statement not only is TRUE for me but that it is a most HELPFUL statement for the WS to hear. Hell, definitely something that some of us BS's need to understand, in reverse, as well!!!!

Love to y'all...

Thanks for letting me spew the mad ramblings of a crazed woman!!!!

HAPPY WEDNESDAY!

E.T.A. ~ I am BY NO MEANS saying this is an easy thing TO DO... and I struggle with it daily. But that is MY choice to stay and struggle for WH and myself as long as we keep it within eachothers boundaries for this grieving healing process!!!

[This message edited by let it be me at 3:08 PM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

We both, WH and I, must decide for ourselves (and communicate clearly and with respect) what boundaries we have set on this process and continually communicate our feelings on this as/if our boundaries change.

I have LOVED your posts on this!!!

Exactly!! It's a process constantly needing to be re-evaluated.

It's not two sides. It's a team...hopefully

My problem with the post to begin with, and I tried to be very clear, was that it was missing a voice. The WS's. And yes we do have one.

Do you believe all posts here should be about the WS voice only? I think there is a lot of value to the WS from posts like these as well.

Do you all think that WS's here don't get that the BS is in pain and we caused that pain?

No, not all, but some, yes. There are newer WS that are still coming to grips with their actions, some WS that come here suggested by their BS, some lurkers who come and read whether they are considering confessing, just confessed, or just found out. There are also some that are not so new but yet rediscover what the "rollercoaster" is all about.

Furthermore, there are some WS, like my WH when he was foggy, who didn't quite grasp what I was going through until he read a narrative in a book about what the BS goes through. He otherwise thought I was being dramatic (dramatic is not a word usually associate with me by my peers). So even though he lived through the initial stages of shock, denial, sadness, rage, etc. with me, it didn't register until he read someone else's narrative.

Coming to this forum and being told "a BS is in pain and you caused it so you either have to deal or get out" is not helpful, nor is it true.

Actually, you have to deal. Whether you decide that you want to deal with it by communicating with your BS and reaching some form of understanding, sticking your head in the sand and ignoring it, by pointing fingers at the BS, ending the M, martyring yourself to the BS, and every other which way in between, you have to deal with it. There is no escaping it.

Now, if you are talking about the BS confusion wincing posted about, you can ignore it and you can ask your BS to ignore it but it is detrimental to the healing of the M. It alienates and diminishes intimacy because instead of the BS running to the WS for comfort when the rollercoaster hits, we have to either stuff it, deal with it on our own, or find someone else (not necessarily of the opposite sex) to listen to us. Any of those three causes a bigger drift in the relationship. And if that is what the WS wants, they might as well leave the M.

Do you believe all posts here should be about the WS voice only?

No, I just think some need to be. The BS's viewpoint in this forum is very well represented!!! You missed the point of my post and that's ok.

Fallen pretty much nailed it.

Merging the emotional side of grief with the intellectual recognition of our part in the pain is not an easy thing to do. It is something only the most determined WSes will put the effort into.

You can't compare pain. It all hurts and it all sucks, and when it's happening to you, it's the worst pain on the planet. Yes, I know I caused it, and that exacerbates it, but it doesn't invalidate how I feel. In order to heal their marriage, WSes must heal themselves, and part of that process is working through their own feelings of grief and loss.

My husband understood that how he responded to my efforts to do that had a huge impact on the success of our R. If he'd shown it me was hopeless and that he didn't care about the work I was doing, we wouldn't be together. I'd have been too afraid to keep trying.

This forum isn't about healing our BSes. It's here for us to heal ourselves

ETA: icbtih8, BS's have JFO, General, Reconcialiation AND WS forum (Posts not with a stop sign) to express your pain and help the WS's understand what you're going through. WS need a place to express their emotions and have guidence. You seem to think that a WS expieriencing grief or anger or frustration is not owning their shit. That's not true. It's part of the process.

This isn't the only post that's in WS forum "explaining the BS point of view". There are many. They say many of the exact same things. I have never posted on any of them and have bumped them as well to help the WS's.

It's ok for the WS to have their struggles acknowledge and validated as well. If that causes you pain, I'm sorry.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 2:10 PM, September 8th (Wednesday)]

You have to decide if you can live with the things that your BS is going to say and do through the long haul.

I think this concisely sums up my last two INSANELY long posts!!!!!

And, obviously and honestly, I HAVE BEEN known to be excessive in my attempts to communicate to my audience. I mean, seriously, everyone hears things differently... speaking to my audience..

Dang. There I go again!

Thanks for the topic (((((wincings_sparkle)))))!!!!

[This message edited by let it be me at 3:13 PM, September 8th (Wednesday)]