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Sorry for deleting my original post. I feel that I've done BH too much wrong already, and didn't want another post to make him look like the bad guy. He went out this weekend to bars to get away from the pain he feels at home, and ended the night leaving with the waittress. She got him in a hotel room because she wanted to take care of him. The kissed and she left because he had too much to drink but left her phone number. I couldn't get a hold of BH all day, and got a call late at night that he was at a hotel and didn't know where he was at, and that he needed me to find him. I went with DD to meet him at the hotel, knowing before I got there that some woman probably just left. He said he missed me and wanted me there and that's why he called me. He kept telling me how beautiful the woman was, how he felt such relief to be with someone that just liked him for him and took care of him. He can't wait to call her next weekend. I told him how much it hurts me that he's seeking comfort from other women, when I beg for the chance to comfort him. But he said I'm the one that hurt him and he doesn't want any comfort from me. That these other women are more exciting, and just kind to him, it made him happy to be away from the hell with me. He said he's not specifically seeking sex, but when another woman likes him he's not going to deny himself the opportunity to be taken care of.

I told him I couldn't live with being officially married to him and listen to his stories of being with other women and how nice they are continually. It makes me lose all sense of dignity, and I'd rather leave if he continues to go out with other women. But he said he's not trying to seek revenge, but looking for embrace in the world outside from me to lift him up. Said he forms friendships talking to people, and the women are just what naturally follows from them liking him. He said I'm weak and have no back bone, not assertive like these other women and it's refreshing to him. He's staying for DD, but hates me for what I did. He alternates between wanting to work it out with me and wanting to leave me, but that he can't contemplate a chance back with me until he's healed with comfort from outside.

I'm lost. I was in my affair for a long time. How can I say he can't have girls outside to comfort him if that's what he needs now? But how long? And I'm afraid it'll only lead him to fall in love with someone new and end our marriage.

He wasn't abusive for years. He only ocassionally slap me last year, and he said he never did that with any previous girlfriends. He only did that with me because he really loved me and wanted me to understand what he wanted me to learn. The were never that painful, and it was rare. I was already in my affair and in the fog, and I really think my emotional detachment contributed a lot to his frustration with me.

[This message edited by burntashes at 2:06 PM, September 28th (Tuesday)]

burntashes, you're a 35 year old mother of a 4 year old daughter and you're seriously asking this?

You've received over 6 pages on one thread and I don't know how many others on another one with members offering support, resources, places for you to turn to.

I just have two questions for you.

I picked him up from a hotel one of the woman left him at this weekend.

Was your daughter with you?

Do you have anyone that can take your daughter right now? A family memeber, a relative, a good friend that's stable, because the two of you are in such a destructive toxic dance I'm terrified for her.

Should I accept this is what he needs to heal?

Yes.

Is that what you wanted to hear?

"I know nothing he does would even come close to the sins of my cheating, but I can’t help but feel like a doormat sometimes sitting by when he’s out wooing other women."

He is cheating. So, yes it not only comes close but is cheating and he has been abusive on top of it. Please get out and find a safe place for that sweet baby of yours! From a BS.

BS treading lightly here

No this is not going to help his healing one iota! He's on a downward spiral and trying to punish you.

Two wrongs don't make it right and this is very toxic for both of you.

From reading your profile, he's had a history of drinking, and until he WANTS help. I don't see any positive in any of your story. You need to protect you and your DD

burntashes

Honey you are in a toxic relationship. Look what you did was wrong granted. It was wrong.

Right now it sounds like he needs his space to find him. If he wants to cheat that is all on him not you.

Sweetie you work on fixing you. You get yourself in a safe living place for you and your child. Then you work on who you are and who you want to be ok.

I wish you the best honey.

What he is asking of you is wholly unacceptable.

And it does not lend itself to healing in any way, shape, or form.

i came on too late to read your actual post, but coul..def surmise from your responses what it entailed....

you say you have too much to work through right now...may i ask what it is exactly you need to do?

are you happy in this marriage?, were you ever happy in this marriage?

is he happy?

hon, my heart aches for you, you did wrong, but i ask you now with the following analogy as a mom..

if your daughter stole money from you haht punishment would be appropriate?

should she be spanked?

should she be put into her room all day?

sent to bed without any supper?

take away all of her belongings including her bed, so she can appreciate what she does have? she is 4 already, and its never too early to teach them

should her fingers be cut off?

i personally would think at 4, a good talking to would be inorder, if she does it again then maybe up the anti a bit...like taking away a favorite belonging of hers so she can see the value of your own belongings, teaching empathy as well as stealing is wrong...

now you have beeen at si for some time, you have heard from us bs's (quite a few of us) and ws's alike...we are all telling you that your husband may very well be in a devastated state and is hurting beyond, but i ask you the things he is doing to you and asking of you....do you really believe you deserve them all...would your daughter deserve all of the above punishments for her behavior if she stole...

there are appropriate punishments for every crime, then there are the disproportionate ones, the one that have all of us responding to you with resounding NO's....

what are you afraid of?, are you afraid to be without him? are you afraid to raise your daughter alone?....

talk to us about your fear and let us see if we can help you sort through them...

He's. Not. Trying. To. Heal.

People who are trying to heal act like it.

He's trying to punish you, and you're letting him. Over and over again. I've never heard of a single treatment modality for mental illness that promoted inflicting unrelenting emotional pain on another human being as a healing process.

I understand where your mind is: you did this to him, so you have to stay and take it until he returns to being whatever your mind has idealized him.

Let's suppose that this is all your fault: according to him, he will NEVER forgive you, you will NEVER be equal, no matter how many threesomes you have or how many women he fucks. Where's the healing in a life of endless torment?

You're doing him no favors by encouraging the dark path that he's currently going down. NONE. He's like an out of control child at the moment, and he needs help from somebody who can make him see that what he's doing is wrong. You are too full of toxic shame to be that person.

Abuse creates toxic shame - the feeling of being flawed and diminished and never measuring up. Toxic shame feels much worse than guilt. With guilt, you've done something wrong; but you can repair that - you can do something about it. With toxic shame there's something wrong with you and there's nothing you can do about it; you are inadequate and defective. Toxic shame is the core of the wounded child.

~~Leo Booth/John Bradshaw

veritas, thanks for that quote, it sounds like I've been going through something similar.

t/j over.

Iwant, I almost cried when I read your post. I deleted my original post because I don’t want to cast BH in a bad light. I’ve hurt him too much already. The whole thing is not fair to him. He gave me a lot, beyond just love. He taught me so much but I never appreciated enough what he has to give until recently. But the analogy, the heartfelt questions, makes me think hard about the situation.

Do I think I deserve all this? I don’t know, but a lot of times I feel that I do. I feel very hurt that he was out all day and found comfort in a new beautiful woman he met. The only reason it didn’t get physical was she walked out. But when I think about how much I lied to him and how much it hurts him every day, I feel that I deserve hell. I feel responsible for his acting out because he was never like this before my confession.

Was I ever happy in this marriage? Yes, for many years I felt like the luckiest woman on earth for his love. I only started to become unhappy when he started telling me he was tired of me. He started alternating between passionate love and telling me there’s nothing to me, and my emotions have been on a roller coaster ride. I told him I was unhappy, and he said he was unhappy too, that I have a lot of qualities that make me hard to live with, but he still managed to stay faithful all those years. I wish I had been that strong before.

Veritas, your post about toxic shame is poignant. I do feel it, but I am not encouraging him on this path. It was difficult for me to take a stand, but I told him repeatedly in no uncertain terms after picking him up this weekend that I cannot take this anymore. I told him that I understand he’s very hurt, that he’d rather be with another woman because it gives him peace rather than feeling pain from the embrace, but he has to make a choice. If this is what he’ll continue to do, I’m leaving. At first he said then go. But later he said he needs me, that maybe I was right and he wants to stay because he loves me but he’s just having a hard time dealing with this. He feels he made a fool of himself and wants to be good but doesn’t know how.

So I guess I already know the answer to my own question and I told him how I feel about it. But he’s so devastated my heart breaks looking at him, I want to forget about my pain and get back to being close with him. I just don’t know how to help him heal from his pain beyond daily apology and telling him I love him. I want to make him feel a sense of peace with me again, a power that I gave to these other women due to my cheating. I hate what I did.

Burntashes, first of all, I owe you a reply to your PM. I will try to do so tonight.

Second of all: let me tell you a little bit about my D-day aftermath. First let me say that my XH witnessed (by way of finding text massages and cell phone pics between me and OM) abominably slutty, disgusting behavior. (Disclaimer: the S-word is used by ME at MY situation only.) At first he said he hoped we could reconcile. Then he said R of this marriage wasn't possible, but that if we took some time apart and worked on ourselves and our issues, maybe we could someday have the M we always wanted. THEN, around 2 weeks after I moved out, he called me and informed me that we were completely over, forever.

The next day I found condoms in our former bedroom at the marital home and the place set up like a love nest. I can only assume that he fucked somebody that night.

Of course, I was devastated. Of course, my blood-is-thicker-than-water mother expressed to me her disappointment at his "committing adultery." . But you wanna know what? He knew the M was unsalvageable. He knew he was done, that he could never erase the mind movies, that he could never trust me one iota again. So, rather than string me along with false hope, he told me it was over and THEN he fucked whoever he wanted to fuck. He didn't do it in front of me. He damn sure didn't have me drive him to the venue. He might have called me the worst names in the book when talking to his friends, his new lover, his family, whoever---but he didn't continually scream them at me personally. And we didn't even have kids---you have a four-year-old!

I'm sorry to be harsh, but in my opinion, if he wanted R he would not be fucking other women or asking you to participate. Yeah, he hurts more than he probably ever has in his life. That is understandable. But if he wants to behave this way you two should separate. Just my 2 cents. I have more to say via PM that is relevant to your situation.

i am glad that my post to you is provoking thought...that was the intention...

i will tell you a bit about my story, i found out that my ws was an om before he ever met me, and it never ended, instead he married me and continued this affair of his, he also took up with several others, he was an emotionally abusive man, a verbally abusive man, and in bed i found out that the first mow was always there, in fact he called for her regularly (long story) the point is he was a horrible husband, did the trickle truth...and at 6 months i was done...the marriage is still in existance for my kids...

i would never do the things to my ws that your bh is doing to you....there are lines, and he crossed most of them, there are boundaries and he cross most of them....

think about it, all of the bs's here on this site are here because of this horrible devastation....and all of them who posted to you tell you that your bh crossed too many lines...

why do you think that is?

i know you love this man, that much is so evident, but i implore you at this point if you still choose to stay in this marriage draw up some of your own boundaries, show yourself some self-respect...he cannot respect you if you do not repsect yourself....

there is an awful lot that he is doing in the name of pain...there are plenty of men and women behind bars who felt that way too....there comes a point in time where we are all responsible for our own actions and reactions....

how much will be too much?..is this how you want to live, and is this how you want to show your daughter what a marriage is?????

i am not telling you to leave this man, that is up to you, i do not walk in your shoes, but i am telling you that you need to respect yourself enough know when it feels wrong its because it is wrong...

I don’t want to cast BH in a bad light.

His behavior casts him in a bad light, whether or not you share it with us.

Do I think I deserve all this? I don’t know, but a lot of times I feel that I do.

YOU DON'T. Sweetie, you have multiple BS's here telling you that this is not acceptable. Please listen to them.

I am not encouraging him on this path.

By staying with him and tolerating it, you are teaching him that abusing you verbally and emotionally is okay. I know that comes awfully close to a 2x4, but at this point you are about to cross the line into a BS, and I am speaking to you from that standpoint.

Poor boundaries may have earned you the WS title, but you don't have let those bad choices continue to play out in your life. What you are going through now is another test of your boundaries. The healthy thing to do here is to set limits about the way you allow your H to treat you. What he is doing is abusive, and YOU HAVE A RIGHT AS A HUMAN BEING to decent treatment. Please repeat that over and over until you believe it.

If this is what he’ll continue to do, I’m leaving.

That's an excellent start. I really hope you follow through. If you decide that you want to have contact with him, you might want to think about what limits you will need to set around how that happens so that you can maintain your boundaries.

(((burntashes)))

My heart goes out to you tonight.

This RAs are basically his way of seeking justice. If you feel you desrve it, then you may well do. The only problem is that his acting this way to give you the equal pain back at you is also self_destructing himself and his M, or at least what's left of it. It is putting out the last glimmer of hope to rebuild your M ever. Life is not fair, and to rebuild your M, he must and even you must accept that he will never get his justice in this. He must deal with this situation in any other way than this. Even if you feel it unfair for him,but you must take a firm stance to not tolerate this kind of behavior not only for your M's sake but also for his own sake. Be strong. If D is the only way to stop this behavior, then please for his sake, give him D. Don't let him spiral down to such self destruction while you are crying in delusional self pity.

I think that if you love him and believe he is recoverable and that he really wasn't this kind of person all along that you are doing him a disservice by providing him an environment in which he can be a person who the pre-A him would've considered loathsome.

You degrade yourself *and* him this way.

If this is the man he has to be to be in the home with you, IMO you need to do the hard work here and separate yourself from him so he can recover who he is. This has the added benefit of not exposing your toddler to sex workers and who knows what all else he'll be dragging in the door next.

Respect him enough to say no to this, and love him enough to not let him humiliate himself this way.

I also have a really hard time believing that a person goes from stand-up nice regular person to "hookers and blow" (I use that both metaphorically and half literally in your case) overnight simply triggered by the revelation their WS had an affair. IMO you were H&B all along. You were acting out in some way. You don't go from zero to 20 affairs (like one WW's BH supposedly did) or from zero to forcing one's WW to perform with sex workers like a light switch. This is some sadistic shit. What was he doing with his sadistic impulses all these years? What will he do with them next? A freak flag doesn't just appear out of thin air. Where's he been flying his freak flag all this time?

At all times, remember that you have a child, and a daughter no less, and he is already showing that he is capable of thinking of her as a tool to use against you rather than being protective and fatherly toward her.

So, if I were you, I'd start researching his history. Is this really new? Because he sure is good at it.

[This message edited by ladyvorkosigan at 6:19 AM, September 28th (Tuesday)]

LadyV, Yes... I've been trying to think of a way to express what you just said. This behavior he's doing, this sadistic abuse he's heaping on you, burnt, is a part of who he is. Your affair has just turned the monster loose.

You know, there is never going to come a time when he's going to think "ok, now we're even." He's never going to think "ok, I've seen enough other women. Now I'm going to go home and love my wife."

And you know, even in a best case scenerio, what if that were even possible? What if one day he actually thinks, "ok, we're even." That is thinking like an eight year old. And this is the best you can hope for.

Burnt, this is not normal or healthy by any standard for anyone anywhere. You have chosen to be a helpless, defenseless punching bag to an angry, immature, and cruel child. I did almost the same thing in my situation, but his cruelty is off the charts. He has his willing victim (You have your reasons, I know. You believe you deserve this.) and he's taking full advantage of you.

He does not need this to heal. This is the OPPOSITE of healing.

I have the greatest sympathy for you and my stomach actually hurts about it. He knows you are unable/unwilling to defend yourself from him, and he is pounding on you like a boxer hitting a heavy bag. The heavy bag cannot protect itself. It just takes it. That's you right now, to him. I can't stand a bully, and he is bullying the one he should be helping.

He should be HELPING you! You are obviously in great pain. You feel like you deserve to be punished, but you know... If he were a good person, there is no way he'd be doing this - no matter how much pain he's in. You don't deserve punishment. You need to take responsibility for your affair and your choices, then do everything you can to make amends and heal your relationship, but taking punishment is not part of the deal.

A very short time from now, maybe a year or two, maybe much sooner, you are going to look back at this time of your life and your are going to think several things.

1. You are going to feel ashamed of yourself for having the affair.

2. You are going to be embarassed and humiliated that you allowed yourself to be treated this way.

3. You are going to be VERY angry at him for doing this to you.

Nobody wants to be or feel pitied. I feel as sorry for you as much as I do anyone ever though. You're in that state of mind where you can't think clearly and you keep getting sucker punched. You're unable to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. You can't see how bad this is because of your closeness to the situation. Burnt, if your daughter were in your exact situation, what would you tell her to do? Try to step outside yourself and think of it like that!!! What would you tell her?

Document everything that is happening to you - at least keep a journal. Keep copies of reciepts for hotel rooms, emails, any evidence for what he's doing.

I am a bs and understand the pain that a bs goes through with absolute crystal clarity. And your bs's choices are appalling. Almost inhuman. If there is a good man in there somewhere, it's buried very deep. His salvation will never come as long as he's doing this. If he isn't strong enough to stop on his own, then you must do this for him as well as yourself and your daughter. Draw the line now. Now!! He does not get to be with you and treat you like this. Not another minute!

Doggone it, I'm so long winded... sorry. I know you need time. We all wish we could give you the perspective you're going to have in a year or in 5 years. I suppose it's going to take that time. There's no real shortcut to enlightenment here. Keep reading and posting here and at least you can shorten this time as much as possible.

So, if I were you, I'd start researching his history. Is this really new? Because he sure is good at it.

BA- I've stayed off your threads because you have had some great advice and I think Teacherman is spot on that you aren't ready to hear a lot of it yet.

But Lady V said exactly what I've been thinking. I'm sorry and I doubt you are ready to hear this yet as you are still linking his behavior to your past actions. I think when you are ready and you can separate the two, you'll find that he has some serious issues and they have been there for a long time.

burntashes...

Please do not delete your posts, it's against the guidelines to do so. Also, it's insulting to those that took the time to reply to you in the first place.

What was he doing with his sadistic impulses all these years?

He's hit her and emotionally abused her for years...according to other posts.

burnt, sadly you are an abuse victim...I wish to God you could step back, physically and emotionally, so you could start to heal YOURSELF.

This is JMHO...not intended to offend...just feel very sorry you are in this situation and are continuing to be hurt. Your daughter is also going to suffer tremendously if you don't change this situation.