SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Are you volunteering to be the child's advocate?

Absolutely!!!!! I'd be happy to be burnt's as well, as would many on this site.

Your wife isn't the only victim of DV, there are many here me being one of them.

There's empathy that's dripped out of every thread she's started.

There are a lot of hurting people on this site that are in very bad situations that receive a few posts sometimes one or two.

You can be a victim for only so long...then you become a volunteer.

There are needs for both, empathy and firm guidance and boundaries.

Also, if this weren't an annonymous site, there might have already been a visit from CPS to that house. They don't wait for the victim to call if the children are in danger.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 6:22 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

Absolutely!!!!! I'd be happy to be burnt's as well, as would many on this site.

Then why are you telling me? Do it. Get the information and do it. Otherwise, give burnt the support she needs without 2x4s (this is not aimed at you specifically uncertain)and simply be an ear for her to bend, without judgement of her actions.

The reason I'm on an anonymous site to seek help for my problems is I don't want to complicate the situation by sharing everything with close family. What little I did share backfired badly and I got yelled at more than anything else, because the my parents have the "if you don't follow my advice you're personally offending me so do what I tell you or don't bother coming to me" attitude. Please don't get angry with one another for my sake. Much of the trouble is in my mind, in BH's mind, and in our private conversations. DD sees a peaceful mom and dad and she is not in any danger. I have no doubt about my husband's love for DD, and he would never let any harm come to her. When it comes to me, I used to be sure he'd never do anything if he knew it hurts me, but after all my lies and deceit he's reeling and doesn't know what to do. It's more about what I can accept in my marriage. BH apologized many times for hitting me in the past. He would never do that again and I believe him. He's ashamed of it. The verbal abuse part, yes, I do think he is in some way. I don't think he's intentionally trying to control me, but the way he phrases things makes me not know what to think. I think I need to put down firm boundaries with him. That's the only action I see as the next step right now. I need to work on myself. I don't want to be a poor me victim. I do understand the incredible pain my husband is feeling and want to help him, but I need to work on being a stronger person myself before I can change his perception of me.

[This message edited by burntashes at 6:49 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

I know it's not aimed at me. I know you care very much and have been an amazing point of view. Thank you so much for your bravery at posting your story.

I would love that. I asked her to PM me and suggested taking her daughter to a relative or a trusted friend at least.

It's a process. I just don't want to see a little girl hurt in that process.

I've seen it. It's horrible. I know you have any many other's on this site.

We'll be an ear for you burnt...all of us that have offered, just please make sure your little girl is safe and away from your husband's toxic actions.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 6:46 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

Rise and Shine...

With respect, I disagree with your assessment of Burnt's situation.

I am a bs and I know exactly the damage that multiple ddays have. However, I have to believe that maybe you've missed some important information here. He has hit her. In Burnt's words (at least paraphrasing) he didn't hit her with a closed fist and it was only 10 or so times. We are trying to help her see that no matter if he hit her "only 10 times" that it is completely unacceptable. Yes, she had the choice to be there or not while he had sex with another woman, but see... the thing with bullies and bully behavior, they use the control they have over someone, both physical and mental, to make them do and feel all kinds of humiliating things. And yes, she's responsible for her choices and actions, but there's a victim/abuser cycle going on here. We've spent hundreds of messages back and forth trying to educate Burnt on what is acceptable and unacceptable treatment - reguardless of the bs/ws situation. He's her first real relationship. She has not had the opprotunity to experience NOT being bullied so she doesn't really get the concept of how really wrong the bullying is. She may not even realize it's abuse. (Burnt, I apologize for speaking/writing as if you aren't here. I hope I don't sound condescending to you, but I believe this is the truth. I think you just really haven't experienced any other way so how could you know it's not normal!) He was not good to her in many ways before her affair. There's more going on here than you are aware of.

Burnt, your husband is not an evil, frothing at the mouth, Hitler moustache wearing villan. He IS however, a bully and an abuser. In my experience, abusers don't see themselves as abusers. He also has a very immature sense of entitlement. He may actually think the things that R and S wrote. He certainly is in much pain. I am very aware of the pain a bs feels.

To put it bluntly...

Your husband knows that you have stayed put and not stood up for yourself no matter what he's done. Even before your affair. You have made yourself the "bobo doll" for him. (Remember the childs inflatable toy that you could punch and knock down, and it would just automatically pop back up to be hit again)

It's ok to take in others opinions and I see value and an educated response from Rise and Shine. It's just that he missed some important information somewhere.

We can discuss the damage of your affair and the tt. That is significant. But, his over the top, childish, mean spirited actions are not justified in any way.

I've read every word you've written that is available to see on SI and I stand by every last word I've said here.

DITTO Teacherman...Ditto..

BA you are showing CLASSIC victim mentality..meaning many many abuse victims have walked in your shoes and try, sometimes to their very dying breath, to justify their abusers actions....

We are here for you as sounding boards..we are here for you as a REALITY check..

but until you actually remove yourself, get professional help and have a revised mindset...you will continue to feel like you deserve your WH's horrible maltreatment....

Your daughter really is the innocent victim..

((((BA))))

BurntAshes,

I am sorry that I came across as exceedingly harsh. Please understand though - I know what kind of damage we parents can do to our children from a very recent, very scary, first hand perspective.

You wrote something in your last post that concerns me so I'm going to handle it a little bit at a time.

DD sees a peaceful mom and dad and she is not in any danger.

Are you sure that is what she sees? I thought my daughter didn't know anything and only saw a happy couple who had the occasional and normal disagreements.

I was wrong. She figured out that he'd had an emotional affair early in our marriage. She was 2 when it happened and she overheard (listened in) a disagreement when she was 5. She figured out at age 5 what had happened.

By the time we got to her teen years we had no idea what she knew about the problems in our marriage.

She seemed happy, healthy and able to cope well.

Until she started cutting herself. That's when we realized there was a problem. Here's the thing - she'd been hurting herself in less noticeable ways for years and we never clued in.

This statement:

I have no doubt about my husband's love for DD, and he would never let any harm come to her.

Is in direct contradiction to your very next sentence:

When it comes to me, I used to be sure he'd never do anything if he knew it hurts me, but after all my lies and deceit he's reeling and doesn't know what to do.

First - he has already harmed his daughter. Burnt, when he yelled at you and told you that you are worthless in front of your daughter he did hurt her.

Second - Ask yourself this. You truly once believed he would never hurt you - but then he has not only hurt you but gone out of his way to hurt you as much as he is capable of. Do you really believe that you have good/sound judgment in regard to what he will and won't do?

Consider what he might do to hurt you and make you pay for what you did wrong if he starts to believe that what he's doing now is no longer working. If he escalates his behaviour it will hurt your daughter.

There is no way the tension between the two of you is completely hidden and you are completely happy in front of your daughter. Do not underestimate what children can know intuitively.

BurntAshes, Something you have to do is realize that you are not only a WS you are a BS. He is not just a BS he is a WS.

He did cheat on you. He is treating you badly. And he is gas lighting. He is cloaking his choice to cheat on you in the guise of being justified.

You keep talking about understanding his pain and wanting to help him.

Burnt, you cannot help him. You cannot change his perception of you.

You have to understand that your pain is justified, too. You have to want to help yourself. You have to change your perception of you.

I know you see his pain and I know you feel bad for causing it. But Burnt, he hasn't got the right to cheat and to cause you pain just because he is hurting.

I know you think this is okay and normal. Please believe those of us who are BS's when we tell you that this is not okay and it is not normal.

Burnt, you cannot help him. You cannot change his perception of you.

You have to understand that your pain is justified, too. You have to want to help yourself. You have to change your perception of you.

I think this sums it up. So many of us are beyond the pain and know what it's like to live a full life past it. We remember the pain and the relief that came with getting out.

But we've forgotten what we were like while we were still in it. Our sense of self was destroyed; we felt powerless and aimless. We were worthless human beings only focused on getting from day to day. That's where BA is now.

No, she's not going to respond to guilt trips about how she's hurting her child. Her BH tells her she's a bad parent. So if we tell her the same thing it only reinforces that belief.

I think that everybody needs to just take a deep breath, dig deep, and think about the things that would have helped you versus what would happen if we lived in an ideal world where you got out of a situation at the first time of trouble. Many of us didn't do it, and we shouldn't expect better of anyone than we did ourselves.

IMO, we need to focus on what we can do to help her at the stage where she is now.

[This message edited by veritas at 11:29 PM, October 5th (Tuesday)]

I predict that by the end of the week (hell, probably by the end of the day) you'll be posting again about how he's told you that you're worthless, that he's doing you a favour by putting up with you, that your behaviour is all that matters, or he is going to cheat and you deserve it.

SG, sadly you're right. It's before the end of the day. He's back to it's all my fault (I PM'ed you the second email). I do understand his pain, but it's a little upsetting that his feeling sorry for my pain seemed to last no more than a couple hours at most. I guess I should understand his anger. My lies were bad, the cercumstances terrible, and he called and yelled at me about how I betrayed him when he trusted me to take care of everything while he sat home like a good boy, that he would never ever trust me with even the smallest thing ever again, that I should get that out of my head that he would ever trust me.

I am upset about the piss off, apologize, piss off again, apologize again cycle we've had for the last couple years. But now that I had an A, I can't bring up anything that I need him to change. I don't know if I can be happy if he feels only his pain is justified. Well that's not true. He admits his wrongs too, but the apologies are so short lived I feel like I'm supposed to shelf everything I feel. I know WS are supposed to do that to help BS heal, and I'm willing to do that if he is trying to work it out with me. But he sees it as unmanly to want to work it out with a weak woman who's cheated. He says I have time because he's here. That he's not going to look for anything outside, but he makes no promises. I don't know what this means. It's so ambiguous. I explained that we aren't honestly giving "work it out" a shot if one is seeing others on the side, and I asked that he doesn't see anyone outside, but no reply. Sometimes I feel like leaving. I feel bad for wanting to escape this pain. I come home, everyone is peaceful. I feel crazy wanting to leave. I am breaking this arrangement that seems to be working if I do.

I explained that we aren't honestly giving "work it out" a shot if one is seeing others on the side, and I asked that he doesn't see anyone outside, but no reply. Sometimes I feel like leaving. I feel bad for wanting to escape this pain. I come home, everyone is peaceful. I feel crazy wanting to leave. I am breaking this arrangement that seems to be working if I do.

Burnt, this makes no sense. You are in pain. You are up in the air about what he is actually feeling. He won't comit to anything and yet the last line says that you would be breaking an arrangement that is working. I hope you can see this.

But he sees it as unmanly to want to work it out with a weak woman who's cheated.

And he is such a manly man that he doesn't have an ounce of integrity inside of him? Hah! I hope you can see the insanity of his statement. Your husbands childish behavior is very obvious. Do you really think you can R with a man who acts like a spoiled child?

Your husband is what we call a cake eater. He has you at home and he gets to go and get a bit on the side when he wants to. Added to that is the fact that he has your permission, because he sees your agony and guilt and uses it against you.

I feel crazy wanting to leave. I am breaking this arrangement that seems to be working if I do.

Hun, I responded to your PM.

What about your boundaries?

What part of his "arrangement" is working?

There’s no hope. Husband said I might as well give up, that he doesn’t respect me enough to work things out with me anymore because I cheated. He said the only thing that would help is for me to not have done that in the first place. He doesn’t believe I’ve changed one bit. He sees me as a weak vacant woman that’s capable of telling so many lies even after I initially confessed to him. Said he would have an easier time forgiving me if I had told him everything from day one, but I lied for another three months. I dug my own grave. The tension in our M the last few years were because he felt apprehensive of my past EA with xOM. Said he didn’t care if his having sex with other women might give me STD, but he wouldn’t want an STD himself so it wasn’t a possibility, but that I didn’t care about him when I had my A so why should he care what it would do to me. It’s so sad. I see him sleeping next to me and I feel so much love for him, but then I realize he’s not like the man I fell in love with anymore. I’ve killed that loving husband with my affair. I know that’s how he feels about me, that I stole his dream from him. He’s feeling more sured that he doesn’t want to live in this bull shit anymore. Said I would have to be the one to tell DD in the future why daddy is not living with us anymore, that I broke up her family. He’s sure I would fall for another manipulative man in no time because I have a weak mind. I wish he could feel how I feel to know that I would never place myself in that position again, but I can’t let him read my mind, and he doesn’t believe me. It’s too late. I’ve lost him. I’m so depressed.

(((BA)))

Find a good IC ASAP. please.

(((((burnt)))))).

In time you'll see you haven't lost anything, but I'm hoping this is the start of finding you.

I'm so sorry you're hurting.

my parents have the "if you don't follow my advice you're personally offending me so do what I tell you or don't bother coming to me" attitude

Burnt - I think this is significant. My therapist says that we tend to look for familiar types of people in our relationships. This attitude sounds exactly like what your husband believes.

Burnt,

I am sorry that you're hurting so much. Please find a counselor for yourself (and watch for the need to find one for your daughter).

In the long run (and I know that you're not looking that far down the road yet) this could be the best thing to hear.

A painful truth is better than false hope. The painful truth is that he doesn't respect you enough to try to work things out.

That's his prerogative. He has every right to decide that he cannot forgive or move forward.

BUT - he is not innocent in all of this. His actions are deplorable, too. He is a cheater, Burnt. He is no better a person than you are.

I feel it is necessary to repeat something that has been said by many - People don't change that much overnight, no matter how badly they are hurt.

The fact that he is willing to engage in affairs, to degrade and humiliate you with prostitutes, to berate you verbally and to strike you physically says a lot about who he truly is and who he has always been (even if that part of him was well hidden).

You know you did the wrong thing and made horrible choices that came with heft consequences. You don't need him to tell you that every day for the rest of your life.

Now is the time to begin to pick up the pieces, heal yourself and move on to building a life for yourself and your daughter.

My ex said to me several times during our so-called reconciliation that he was most afraid that I would wake up one day and realize I can do better.

Burnt, I did. I woke up and realized I could do better.

BUT - better is not another man. Doing better is me! Taking care of me. Nurturing me. Doing better is realizing that as much as it hurts to leave and to be alone it is 1,000 times better than living in a marriage without respect.

You can do better, BurntAshes. YOU are better.

I’ve killed that loving husband with my affair. I know that’s how he feels about me, that I stole his dream from him.

I've responded to you several times and while I'm tempted to "give up" and stop giving you advice because you don't seem to be listening, I'm not going to give up.

I am a BS, and while my WH affair hurt like nothing else I've experienced (and I'm a SAb survivor!) your H is acting out in dangerous, and in my opinion, irrational ways.

You did not ruin your H. Yes, your A was devastating, just as my WH A was devastating, but I determined in my own mind that the affair would not define me. The affair would not be the ONLY thing in my life, my only focus, etc.

Your H on the other hand is fixated on your mistake to the detriment of everything around him, almost obsessively. He is risking, and admittedly doesn't care that he's risking your life by engaging in certain behaviors. What happens to your D if mommy contracts a fatal STD from daddy sleeping with hookers, etc?

And the biggest problem of all? You're okay with his acting out, seeking comfort from others, debasing you and abusing you. HE IS NOT INNOCENT IN THIS EITHER. He has knowingly and methodically engaged in an affair (yes, having sex with someone other than your spouse while married is an affair) while pulling all his other bullshi* behaviors.

Sounds like your H does not utilize appropriate coping mechanisms. I think you both would benefit from counseling regardless of whether you two remain married.

Additionally, I think it would be wise for you to heed what he's telling you is his truth. He's floundering, but telling you that your A was a dealbreaker for him. Maybe you should take him at his word.

Notice, I didn't even touch the history of abusive behavior that you always seem to rationalize and justify away. I maintain that above ALL I wrote just now, you should put your daughter first, before your H feelings or even YOUR feelings. Because she IS absorbing what's going on around her, I promise you that. SouthernGal has attemped to tell you her consequences for assuming that her daughter was "okay" when she really wasn't. If you don't listen to me, please listen to SouthernGal. She said it much more eloquently and succinctly than I.

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 1:24 PM, October 6th (Wednesday)]

(((BA)))

when I left my ex-husband I said, out loud, with my then 2 year old in the back seat "this is the first day of the rest of our lives". You can start anew. You can become a better person, better mother, better woman and the best thing is that you can do all these things WITHOUT him.

Said he didn’t care if his having sex with other women might give me STD, but he wouldn’t want an STD himself so it wasn’t a possibility, but that I didn’t care about him when I had my A so why should he care what it would do to me.

Do you really want to be with a man who doesn't value your life?

A recap of the facts. You had a LTA and TT. You are remorseful, NC, etc.

He has multiple sexual encounters with women, prostitutes. Tells you. Humiliates you. Has a history of hitting (oops, I mean slapping) you. He tells you how wonderful he is and how lucky little ole worthless you are to have him. He has belittled you your entire marriage. He is good with your DD, you say, yet he is doing everything he can to break up the family and to degrade her mother. He has isolated you from family and friends. Your family and friends don't like him and you are afraid to talk to them about him because "it will complicate things.". You spend you days and nights wondering what you can do to save the relationship while he has never tried. He exhibits no remorse, no empathy. It is all your fault, according to him, because you had an A first. His encounters don't count. He has an indefinite free pass to do whatever he wants.

Everyone on here has urged you to get away from him. Just get some distance. Clear your head.

You deserve so much better. There are so many wonderful men out there. You can become a stronger you in the meanwhile. You don't have to settle for being unhappy and degraded.

Ugh. Even the end of an abusive relationship can be painful - but take this as an opportunity to get out. Now. As far away from this sociopath as possible.

You have a great deal of repair work to do on your inner self - you've had the equivalent of a hurricane tear through your soul...start that work now. For you. For your daughter.