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(((Hugs)))

Hello BA – I haven’t posted anything on your thread before this but trust me, I have been following it and after reading the last few posts, I feel compelled to pass on a bit of insight from my perspective.

Floridaredman - We all must suffer the consequence of infidelity, those of us who chose to stray.

As a WS myself, I know and am familiar with the price that we pay. With the changes in ourselves , our spouses, our family dynamics but Unfortunately, it seems like we have quite a few newer WS’s who are paying a very dear price for their infidelity and are now trapped in a dying marriage with an abusive spouse. Regardless of our affairs, we are still people and we also deserve to have happiness and love in our lives. We do not have to live the rest of our lives out in fear, abuse and anger. Thats not right. Being trapped in a unhappy marriage is not a punishment that fits the crime.

You have gotten some great advice from the SI community, both WS and BS in recent weeks and I don’t want to add to that advice. I think you already know what you have to do to protect yourself and your family from this downward spiral. This is not a healthy and loving marriage and it seems that is not even a working relationship anymore.

burntashes - Why do I feel such a sense of relief and even peace sometimes at the thought of separating from my husband when I still get mushy sentimental feelings when I think of him and our past?

I wanted to touch on the confusion that you are feelings over your H. You’re still torn between what your mind and your heart are saying. You’re torn between what you feel and what you see. And I think that’s normal but I have to warn you, it can be dangerous if you use these feelings of the past to make decisions for the future.

Those “mushy” sentiments that you feel of him and your past are just that. Sentimental memories. A lot of us are guilty (myself perhaps more so) of looking at the past relationships and seeing not what is but rather, of seeing what we want to see. You see a loving husband because that’s what you want to see and remember. It’s easier on the soul if that’s the memory which we hold onto. It’s not as comfortable to remember the sordid truth in which we were unhappy, argumentative and not in love anymore.

Fulton Oursler - Many of us crucify ourselves between two thieves - regret for the past and fear of the future

When your inner desires conflict with reality, the temptation is to hold onto the good memories and let go of the bad. I know how dangerous this is, after all, it lies at the root of my affair with my xgf of 30 years past. This form of self disillusionment doesn’t solve anything. All it does is put some rose colour glasses in front of the reality and one day, trust me, reality will come crashing in.

Yes, you can remember with fondness the great times in the past but can you really see a great future with your H if this cycle of abuse continues? How will you be able to internalize the memory of the great husband with the reality of a bruise on your face when he gets angry next time?

Instead of looking at the past with fondness and love, you need to focus on your future without having to be ashamed and abused and unhappy. The fear of a future in which you practice the 180 (at the least) or perhaps even leave the marriage, is a very scary future but you can do it.

In her book, Infidelity Crisis: How to Gain Forgiveness and Respect after Your Affair" by Katie Coston, there is much discussion on making conscious decisions instead of emotional choices. Right now, it seems that your memories of this warm and fuzzy past are clouding your ability to make that hard choice. You’re making an emotional choice when it’s time to make a very rational and conscious decision. Please take off the rose coloured glasses when you make this choice. Hanging onto the past based on rose coloured glasses is no less a mistake than staying in a marriage out of a misguided sense of duty.

You have given some good advice to mactruck on her situation and perhaps, you need to follow your own advice. I can see that you have grown quite a bit since your first post but you need to eventually make the hard decision that the marriage of the past does not exist anymore.

HUFI

Wisdom from Gamine - Make a decision and discipline yourself not to waver. Don't be someone who stands for nothing. Stand for what you decide and back it with the full force of your character and conviction. DECIDE. CHOOSE. COMMIT. PERIOD.

MEET WITH A LAWYER. NOW!

I completely agree.

And meet with an IC....

And re-read HUFI-PUFI's post...

(((BA)))

ladyv, yes, I've been the main financial support for most of our M.

We have talked about D in the past and neither of us want to involve a lawyer. His finances have improved a lot recently. There were times after DDay that I wanted to leave, but one of the reasons I didn't was because I didn't want him to be destitute with no place to stay. Since the discovery of my affair, he's worried about his financial vulnerability and thus he's making changes to feel more secure and it makes sense. I've told him that even if we separate, there's nothing I wouldn't do to help him if he needs help in anyway, but he's a firm believer that women will only turn into bitter b**ches after D and do everything to harm the husband, including witholding DD from him. Breaks my heart that he thinks of me that way, but I can't convince him that I love him and would never have ill will toward him.

Why am I still staying? One of the reasons is we have debt we need to pay off, and living in one household would make it easier to pay off than having to pay for separate places. Another reason is DD doesn't want her mommy and daddy apart.

Regarding abuse, the physical part stopped early this year and he's said many times that it was wrong, and he would never slap me again. I don't think he sees himself as emotionally abusive. He believes that my self esteem got so damaged in our M because I have a weak personality, and I believed that completely for the longest time, until recently. After reading on SI and other books, I started questioning whether I really am as bad as he says I am in some of the things. He says I'm the worst mother he's ever seen, but last night DD had some bad dreams and woke up crying. H went to her but she asked for me. I realized for a moment if I was such a bad mother why does DD want only me sometimes. Actually, it would not be fair to say that he harmed my self image. His love made me confident. He taught me a lot. The problem I realized is that I should not be looking to someone else for validation of myself. I'm working on a healthier self image based on my own sense of self.

Hufi, I agree that I am seeing things thru rosy glasses, and I'm trying to remind myself not to be delusional about reality. It has been quiet in the house as we don't argue much, and never in front of DD anymore. The thing I'm uncomfortable with is the ambiguity of his committment, or lack of. I'm trying to decide what's best for us and DD.

[This message edited by burntashes at 12:27 PM, October 7th (Thursday)]

Money is important.

You and your doughter are the most important.

Promise your self that if he starts again his abusive ways you separate and don't look back. Make yourself that promise and make sure he knows the rules for staying in the house.

Understand the 180, live it.

The "bad mother" stuff is SUCH a low blow.

I don't think he sees himself as emotionally abusive. He believes that my self esteem got so damaged in our M because I have a weak personality, and I believed that completely

He says I'm the worst mother he's ever seen

OH MY GOSH!

Really?!

You really think this is not verbal/emotional abuse?

This man has played you like a $2 violin, manipulated you until YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO YOU ARE!

It looks like he's getting his ducks in a row honey, and I'd advise you to do the same. Please wake up.

Oh, and the part about your daughter not wanting her parents to be apart? Yeah, sometimes my kid wants candy and ice cream for dinner too, but as the parent I'm responsible for his overall security and well-being, not just instant gratification. Meaning, your child is too young to understand the long term effects, the big picture if you will, of the things going on around her. She is incapable of reasoning these things out and relies on the adults in her life to keep her safe and secure. I maintain that this is a toxic situation for her and she needs to be protected.

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 1:18 PM, October 7th (Thursday)]

Stop listening to him. The reason why I say this is because I have yet to hear you say, "I'm weak. I have a weak personality. I'm a bad mother." It's your husband who is feeding you these thoughts, and it doesn't really matter if he believes them or not. You think it does because you have allowed him to think for you, and define your character, and you're too afraid that if you leave him, you'll just fade into nothing, nobody of significance.

But that's so wrong on two levels. Number one is, his words have a purpose, and that purpose is to grind you down so that you become his parrot, and to get you to do what he wants. Statements like:

I've told him that even if we separate, there's nothing I wouldn't do to help him if he needs help in anyway, but he's a firm believer that women will only turn into bitter b**ches after D and do everything to harm the husband, including witholding DD from him. Breaks my heart that he thinks of me that way, but I can't convince him that I love him and would never have ill will toward him.

Say a whole lot. Once he said women turned into bitter bitches, you decided that you were going to bend over backwards, even if it meant screwing your and your daughter's financial future to accommodate him. So that's why it doesn't matter if he believes it or not; he says the things he does to get a desired reaction. He's not interested in the truth; he's interested in getting what he wants.

The second reason is that you are somebody. And if you don't like your circumstances, you can change them. And if you are a weak, naive personality, bad mother, you can change that, too. But one thing I do know is that you'll never change it so long as he's there feeding you with a steady diet of self-hatred and negative talk.

Let the real BA come out. Stop talking to him. I would love it if you would call the Domestic Violence Hotline and talk to them. Talk to an IC. Talk to a lawyer. Now. Pronto. Before *you* end up on the streets and *he* ends up getting custody of your child. That would truly be a tragedy.

[This message edited by veritas at 1:39 PM, October 7th (Thursday)]

His finances have improved a lot recently. There were times after DDay that I wanted to leave, but one of the reasons I didn't was because I didn't want him to be destitute with no place to stay

Hmmmmm. His finances have improved AND his behavior has deteriorated. Seeing a pattern here.

ETA: along with all his others. Poor treatment of past girlfriends (and you really don't know how bad it was), unhealthy view of women...sweetie, you've gotten such amazing advice from all. Really liked Hufi's post too.

[This message edited by uncertainone at 1:45 PM, October 7th (Thursday)]

I tried to stay away but i just couldn't pass this one.....

Another reason is DD doesn't want her mommy and daddy apart.

Are you really going to hide behind your DD?? A little girl?? She is not capable of making this kind of decision.

Burnt, as you are also a bs, please go read this in "Just Found Out"

20/20 Hindsight--What I wish I'd done

I think all of it applies to you and your situation

We have talked about D in the past and neither of us want to involve a lawyer. His finances have improved a lot recently. There were times after DDay that I wanted to leave, but one of the reasons I didn't was because I didn't want him to be destitute with no place to stay. Since the discovery of my affair, he's worried about his financial vulnerability and thus he's making changes to feel more secure and it makes sense. I've told him that even if we separate, there's nothing I wouldn't do to help him if he needs help in anyway, but he's a firm believer that women will only turn into bitter b**ches after D and do everything to harm the husband, including witholding DD from him. Breaks my heart that he thinks of me that way, but I can't convince him that I love him and would never have ill will toward him

.

BA,

THIS IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE.

Others have told you to STOP LISTENING TO HIM, and I'm going to repeat that. Stop it. Now.

Quit trying to "prove" yourself to him. It plays into his manipulation. The more you try to prove that you are a good wife, a good mother, a good person, the more he sucks you into his mindfuck.

No one, including and especially your husband, has the right to pass these kinds of judgments on you.

YOU DECIDE WHO YOU ARE.

I have been watching this thread but haven't jumped on it yet because I know it can feel totally overwhelming when you are looking at page after page of "You MUST do this...." but the more pages of this I read, the more my heart breaks for you.

First of all - the bad mother bit... can you list some things that in your H's mind make you a bad mother? Is he saying you are a bad mom because you do xyz, or is it just a blanket statement? Now, is there anything that YOU think makes you a bad mother?

My H had lost his way for a long time. At it's worst, I used to hear that I was a bad mother. He felt I was overly permissive and "spoiling the kids rotten". Now see, there was some truth to that. But it was very, very complicated. H, when in a good mood, played with the kids. People would comment on what a great dad he was. But when he was in a bad mood.... look out. At that point H was an out of control alcoholic, but trying to hide it. If too long had gone by when he couldn't sneak out to the garage for peppermint schnapps and a stick of gum, he'd get really, really cranky. So if the kids made a PEEP I would run to try and make them happy immediately so H's temper wouldn't flair. Was I spoiling them? Yeah, probably. But what made me a bad mother was allowing HIM in their lives. Am I saying your H abuses your DD? No - I don't know enough to say he does or doesn't. But I am telling you it is very easy to let someone else convince you that you are a terrible mom. H had me convinced I was ruining my kids lives. Now that he is sobered up, he is totally appauled by the way he projected his feelings of inadequacy onto me, and I'm appauled by how I let him.

The other thing I want to comment on is how much he has "taught" you. You have said it over and over, but you haven't given any examples of what exactly it is that he teaches you. You have mentioned that he is only cruel to you or hits you when he is trying to teach you something, because he loves you so much. To me, it sounds like that are HIS words you are using. That he has taught you so much. Do you have an example of something that he has taught you? To me, the fact that you view him as a teacher says that he is superior to you, or that one of you at least thinks he is. What does your H think he has taught you? And what do YOU think he has taught you?

I am a BS. Some of the things I did/said to my H after dday fill me with shame today, 4 years later. Hell, it filled me with shame at the time. I said some really, really cruel things in my pain. Most WS have to suck up a lot of abuse from their BS to get to a place of R. But the things you are telling us about your H... quite frankly they frighten me.

(((hugs)))

I felt this suddent panic this morning, that by sharing my experiences here I'm betraying my husband, displaying his pain and our issues for all to see. I feel guilty for sharing. I wish I had been to counseling years ago to get some real perspective on things that bother me in our marriage. This board open my eyes to a lot of things. Part of me still doubt, what if I've presented everything in a one-sided fashion, and that's why H is presented in a negative light that he doesn't deserve. I think I have a lot of flaws and isn't the greatest person to live with, but I get tired of feeling not good enough. Then I think maybe I'm being childish and not facing criticism positively and making changes I need to make to be a better person. So much self doubt. I don't know how much he says is true and how much is exaggeration.

What has he taught me? Husband thinks everything, from understanding American culture (I wasn't born here) to how to dress to being a better driver to how to be a mom. He feels very cheated because he molded me from this naive girl with flawed taste in clothes that knew nothing into an attractive confident woman, and I took everything he taught me to hurt him back by having an affair. He feels he gave me a chance while no one else did, gave me his affection and I betrayed him. It's not that he thinks he's this great person. He feels he's not good in a lot of ways, but he deserves more than a cold, dishonest woman like me with no personality. I think he did teach me a lot in those areas, and that's a big part of our problem, that he feels I don't give him anything in return. That's the crux of why I started talking to xOM in the first place. I love my husband and desperately want to know how to be more interesting, have a better sense of humor, have a better personality so that husband would like me more. It was a path to hell. xOM gave me no wisdom. I wish I had gone to a counselor.

H thinks I'm a bad mother because I am not affectionate enough with DD, that I don't hug her and tell her "I love you" enough, that I don't have a natural way with kids. He's a lot more fun and intuitive than me. My parents are not outwardly affectionate people, and I have trouble showing it as much as H does, but I love my DD and am learning to guide her to do things in fun ways rather than getting frustrated with her. I spent a lot of time taking care of DD, but H feels I don't engage her and I'm not loving. I think I wasn't as attentive as I should have during my A, and the A in itself was selfish with little regard for DD's happiness with a complete family. I'm very shameful of that and I've told H that I would never be so selfish again. But I have a hard time accepting that I am the worst mother. I am trying every day to be more affectionate, teach DD in new ways, but H feels it should come natural to me, that the fact that I don't naturally connect with DD more than him says something seriously wrong with me. He feels it's the "real" me he's starting to see, someone cold and evil and he doesn't like me. That's the reason he started getting more angry with me and that's what led to the verbal outbursts and slapping.

I read the 180 and that's what I had in mind by trying to detach, but I hurt him deeply with my A so I feel I should be there for him. It makes for a complicated situation. If I don't say ILY and don't seem enthusiastic, then wouldn't he think I am too happy and not thinking about his suffering?

[This message edited by burntashes at 4:48 PM, October 7th (Thursday)]

BA - I've remained on the sidelines on this one because I can't pretend to know what it's like to be in an abusive relationship. But this post sealed the deal for me. You are in an abusive relationship because you represent control to your BH.

He feels very cheated because he molded me from this naive girl with flawed taste in clothes that knew nothing into an attractive confident woman

He feels cheated because he controlled who you were, and when you no longer followed his exact plan for you it upset him.

He feels he gave me a chance while no one else did

He cannot give you a chance that isn't his to give. Everyone is worthy of the affection of others. It's only his to decide when he has control over you.

desperately want to know how to be more interesting, have a better sense of humor, have a better personality so that husband would like me more

So you desperately want to be who he wants you to be instead of who you actually are in order to allow him more control over you?

He feels it's the "real" me he's starting to see, someone cold and evil and he doesn't like me. That's the reason he started getting more angry with me and that's what led to the verbal outbursts and slapping.

You've got one part right in all likelihood. He doesn't like you - the person you are. No one is worth twisting the person we are to try to win them over. If we cannot be accepted for who we are, then we are with the wrong person.

In the end, you get to decide. But all I see are controlling actions by your BH, and he's playing with your insecurities to keep that state of control alive.

I think Hufi's post got to the bottom of a major part of my problem. I don't want to think of my husband as someone abusive. I don't want to believe he's trying to control me instead of doing everything out of love. Further, I don't want him to think that he's this bad abusive person because it makes him sad. I don't know how much is truth and how much not. And yes, I do feel something is wrong. It's confusing.

BA

Look would you and do you want your daughter to grow up and allow herself to be treated in the manner that you are?? To live the life you are living. Our kids do as they see us the parents do.

I wish you luck. Don't be no pesons doormat.

I've presented everything in a one-sided fashion, and that's why H is presented in a negative light that he doesn't deserve.

BA,

There is no one on this earth who could describe what your H has done in any way using any words in any language that would make your H's behavior sound positive.

He hit you. He called you horrible names, sometimes in front of your daughter. He slept with prostitutes. If there is some positive spin on this, I'd really like to know what it is.

You don't make him sound bad. He makes himself sound bad.

What has he taught me? Husband thinks everything

This SCARES THE HELL out of me. You were not a blank slate that he got to write on and create into a wife. You are your own person and valuable because of what is inside you- in spite of your H and not because of him.

I really wish you would see an IC very soon. More than that, I hope you will talk to a DV counselor. At least commit to 3 appointments with an IC who specializes in abusive relationships or DV counselor.

Please... I'm begging you.

[This message edited by Fighting2Survive at 6:49 PM, October 7th (Thursday)]

If you're so weak and useless, how is it that you have managed to be the one supporting him financially? So it's not even his own money that he's using to hire prostitutes?

To me this sounds like a campaign of terror designed to keep his meal ticket subservient to him. Telling you no one else will want you and that even if you managed to land somebody else they'd treat you no better is *straight out of the abuser's manual*.

Could he survive without your financial support?

Wading gently in, because this situation is so complicated and the thread itself is a little overwhelming...but:

he deserves more than a cold, dishonest woman like me with no personality.

Please, burntashes, read this over again. Ask yourself: are you really cold? do you really have no personality?

I don't want him to think that he's this bad abusive person because it makes him sad.

A cold, uncaring person wouldn't give a shit whether her something made her husband sad or not. You warmth for your husband and daughter are obvious from all the way here in Canada. Like other posters have stated, this is your husband feeding you these perceptions of yourself.

And as for having no personality...well, that's just simply an impossibility. We ALL have personalities. We just do. It's impossible for us to have no personality because we are persons. burntashes, you have a personality and please don't let someone tell you that you do not.

As for your description of yourself as a mother...my mother was not a super affectionate woman, but that did not in any way make her a bad mother. She loved me and my sister deeply and we knew it. She just showed it in different ways than our father, and even as children we were smart enough to know that.

And I'm going to jump to a conclusion here, so ignore me if I'm wrong - but you said you did not grow up in the States. Different cultures have different parenting styles, and none of them are wrong. Is this a cultural difference between you and your husband? I don't know where you grew up but...I just wanted to make sure that you realize that there is not ONE way to parent a child.

(((burntashes))) I realize that you are dealing with a lot of guilt right now about your A. But that does not excuse your husband's behaviour. In any way. At all.

"So it's not even his own money that he's using to hire prostitutes?"

Sort of. From our account which is mainly from my income.

lost_in_toronto,

I am slowly coming to the realization that you and so many others are right, that much of what I believe about myself are perceptions from my H, and just because that's what he said about me, doesn't mean it's true. I'm reading a book about verbal abuse, and although H's behavior don't fit much of the examples of irrational angry abusers, my thought process does mirror that of an abused partner. When he's mad, I assume I did something wrong. When he said I'm a horrible mother, I assume it must be true because he must have based that observation on how I interact with DD. But I KNOW I love DD, and yes, much of it IS cultural differences and different parenting style. I tried to explain this to H, but he believes it's not different styles, rather RIGHT vs. WRONG, LOVING vs. UNLOVING, and that my parenting style falls short of loving. Makes me confused when I know something but want to believe otherwise based on what he tells me. It is so comforting to hear that it IS normal to have different parenting styles, and it's not necessarily bad. The same goes for me being a cold person. I know I feel a lot of love for BH and DD. I just don't think I express it to him the way he appreciates it. I feel less crazy hearing what you said. Thank you!

Two things I think I need to do right now:

Do the 180, with the exception that I continue to apologize for the pain I caused H because of my affair and TT lies. I want to be there for him, but follow the 180 in all other aspects, no clingy activity, etc.

Look for an IC with DV experience.

I don't want DD to think that it's ok to accept any kind of abuse. I think she's a stronger person and won't be weak the way I'd been, but I need to teach her to make sure she knows it.

[This message edited by burntashes at 8:11 PM, October 7th (Thursday)]