SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I haven't posted before - but I have been following your story.

I have to jump on the band wagon. I know that you want your W back -- and want this WW gone -- but being soft isn't the way to get there. Family outing, walks and dessert are all things that should be waiting untin R is acutally in place.

Once she has agreed to R, agreed and started to follow through with your requirments of R (one of which I DO think needs to be IC, because I DO think she sounds depressed) THEN is the time for those kinds of activitives.

Until R is established, you should NOT be trying to connect with your WW -- because that is who she still is -- your WW -- not your W.

Please trust me -- I went down the road your going down, and all I did was help ease my WH out of our marriage.

She needs to know there is a clear choice on the table -- and clear requirments -- and she is either in or out. Period.

Is she used to being that kind of mother? It sounds to me like feb has been carrying the water in the parenting load here.

The topics that she has brought up are real but it is like talking about a hangnail while you are bleeding out from the A artery slice.

Her job. Her problems with the kids. They are real. But that is not what got your family to this point here and they are not insurmountable issues in the marriage. She is responsible for her life and choices too.

Not trying to stick my nose in but how hard is it to separate and re-direct fighting kids. You put them on their homework in separate places.... I am no genius here but this is not rocket science. this is why she had to put her hands on other guys? feb... stop buying what she is selling...

She is dipping he hand in the bag of life experreinces and picking out the things that have been hard on her and give her excuses. Because that is her focus--herself.

You don't have to stop relating to it but you do have to stop acting like it is all reasonable. It isn't.

Her cheating is about her. He choices have directly resulted in pain for many people.

When you fuck other peoples husbands you run the risk of being mischaracterized.... Stop feeling sorry for her. She does enough of that for herself.

I am not saying she isn't making some progress but it ain't that much and more than anything I see you feeling for her. Not her feeling for ... well.... everybody else besides herself.

Your heart isn't the best gauge for you now. Use your head.

Hang in there. You are only a few days into it. Stay strong.

[This message edited by redrock at 10:33 AM, April 4th (Monday)]

Ok man. Random thoughts.

What I am not seeing from her: I was wrong, I will do anything, I lied about having no feelings for you. I am crazy etc. Perhaps she is saying that, but you don't put it up. THAT would be a sign of progress.

What I am seeing: Absolute total depression. She needs to go to a family physician on this. Right now. Like others, I too have been there, and I will say this much: Although a person can be deeply depressed and act horribly, they still know deep down that they are acting destructively. They just don't care about the consequences. This will continue until she is medicated and in therapy.

As for you: yes do the 180, but whatever happens here there is one large roadblock and that is the justifications for 'open.' Unless she totally backs of and admits she lied to make you suffer, or to justify her whoring around, your M cannot survive. This must be dealt with and soon. In other words, you should not be talking R at all unless there is some kind of understanding of the truth about this. An A is bad enough, but this is a huge landmine.

Finally, you: You have been the rescuer and reasonable person that has singlehandedly held the ripped up M together, without an iota of support or thanks from her or your MIL. You WILL go into depression yourself, so see a doc if you haven't already. I should also tell you that soon, very soon, you will begin the rage stage. Probably about the point where she makes the call on R or D. So, get ready for that.

Fianlly, what is it you really want here? Knowing what you know, what is your desire? If she came on her knees to you and begged for R, cried, explained evedrything, do you think you would want to keep living in the same house with her? It's alright for you not to have an answer right now, but really, you seem to be leaving the decisions of R up to her. If you keep moving toward D, she will have to get off her ass and do the work, the wooing, the begging, the healing. You cannot do it alone.

All I can say is that this should have started 2 months ago, but she has had her head you know where. I do see that she might be in a place where she is starting to get it right. That, frankly, is more than I thought she would do.

Man...

I needed someone like Squiffle to lay down the law back when I was going through this...

Feb....listen to it!!

Be Careful...be verrrry careful.

You can't be the leaning post for her right now. She has to find her own strength to make it meaningful even for her.

Please listen to squiffle and Bigger (not to say others don't have great words of wisdom) but really, really...stick with 180 etc...if you really want your W back you need to let her grow up and find her way back home all on her own.

She knows you like a book and she is counting on you to do what she needs to do for herself. You need to show her that you will not be disrespected. I agree with others...you can't/shouldn't be so quick to jump in doing lovely things unless the true R is in place and your conditions for R are in place.

You are very close to the situation and your heart is on the line. Take a step back and take a real look at things...get that tough love in your head and lay down the requirements that are needed/expected for you to even consider working on the M yourself!!

Take a look in the mirror and see the man that had his heart ripped out and then tell that man....you love him, your children and even W and go back to war to save them!

Rooting for you and your family.

((hugs))

I'll chime in.

Dessert outings, walks, conversations, etc. need to stop; this won't help her or you get into a healthier relationship as it reinforces and allows her to stay in the 'old' patterns that got to this point...those patterns/behaviors need to change.

You've mentioned wanting to 'leave the door open' for WS, which can still be accomplished while following the advice of last several postings:

Close the door. Post a sign on the door that states, "Knock if you are WS and agree to the following: <list of needed marital facets>.

Then, wait for a knock. If so, then you can respond, "C'mon in, the door's open."

This is metaphorically of course, you don't have to actually make a sign...but then again, maybe that would work too? :)

Find your ANGER. You want to learn to do the 180? Find your anger.

Don't think of it as uncontrolled rage -- you can channel this. But first you need to value YOURSELF. You won't stand for this.

She's treating you like a doormat. And doormats are not sexy. What are the CONSEQUENCES for cheating? For taking that trip? For all you know there is an OM3-5 on that trip with her. Seriously.

Outing the A was just one consequence. A small one. She still has you. She still has her intact family. She still doesn't work. She still has financial security. She's still got 5K in a secret accountant for a tummy tuck. She still has you doing double duty as mommy/daddy/chief cook and bottle washer. She's still not in IC.

Don't look at her potential. Look at her ACTIONS. Don't do all the hard work for her.

As for the comment that she couldn't deal with being a single mom -- REALLY? You think the single moms on this board signed up for that job? Here's the difference between your WW and them -- your WW cheated. She CHOSE the action and he CHOOSES the consequences.

Most of us, don't get the choice.

So, I don't have a lot of sympathy for her. And you shouldn't either.

If she's depressed, she can see a doctor. Lots of depressed people manage their condition. Depression is just depression. It is NOT a get out of jail card for cheating. She doesn't get a pass from personal responsibility. People are no less devastated because the neurotransmitters in WW's brain aren't firing off enough dopamine.

Stop picking up her slack. She is MANIPULATING you. 180.

I am starting to see some familiar stuff in your posts, Feb.

After DS was born, I suffered from postpartum depression. It was bad. What I didn't know is that WH was also falling into depression but didn't have the awareness to realize it.

He lived in our home, but pretty much abandoned us in favour of work and his other activities. When the A started, it just got worse. I was essentially a single parent and maid, along with having a full time job.

I started to suspect he was depressed, but he refused any help. He wouldn't go to MC with me or to IC. At least, until he realized that if he didn't go to MC, I was done. It was ineffective because he was dishonest with me and the MC, and still refused IC or a visit to the doctor.

After DDay#1, he immediately wanted to try and R, but broke NC soon after and the depression worsened. He became even more hostile with me and his moods were darker. I came home from work one morning on a hunch and he was unable to get out of bed. I was terrified he was going to hurt himself.

I can't remember which poster first mentioned depression, but I agree 100% that it can manifest itself in extreme selfishness. Mine didn't, but WH's did.

I am not making excuses for one bit of your wife's behaviour, but I am saying this because if you really want your marriage to work I believe there is hope if depression has played a role in the change in her personality. When WH finally got treated (medication, IC) and the A ended, he became much more like the person I married.

My experience with WH is that his depression was like a vicious circle. He was depressed, and his self-medication was an A. The behaviour was abhorrent to him, but that made him more depressed. I also think after a point it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: I'm a bad person, so I do bad things.

I think it is reasonable for you to refuse to make any commitments until she has agreed to seek help. I would make that an absolute condition of R. IF you still want your marriage, there absolutely is hope, but you need to have very clear boundaries.

I will agree to disagree with posters who feel a hard 180 is warranted here. It appears to me that your WW is close to, if not at, rock bottom. This may be enough for her to start to get better. Have clear boundaries, for sure. But, if she is at bottom and is willing to get help, then I think talking together is okay. I would avoid expressing any wish for R though. You said it best, that the person in front of you is not who you want to be married to.

Once WH's meds and therapy started to kick in, I was able to support him in that. However, I never did go back to trying to help him manage his guilt over the A. It is not your job to make her feel better about the destruction she has caused. If and when she starts to de-fog and become remorseful, if you still wish to R, you will need to be able to accept her efforts but not do the work for her. Truly, as a BS just being open to WS's efforts is hard enough work without trying to do their job for them.

(((hugs))) to you and hang in there!

BTW - sorry if this post is a little all over the place. I had a lot of stuff popping into my head as I was typing. Hope you get the idea...

Feb - You are clearly a good guy and have the habit of thinking positively of your wife. She had no idea how lucky she was. You always excuse her behavior, even now.

On my Dday, I had precisely 2 hours from the time my H told me about the affair until our DS walked in the door from school. When H told me about OW, I ran out to a friend's house but was home by the time DS got home from school. DS is 15, so it's hard to hide things from him.

I'm nothing special. Just saying that she's not the BS. She has no idea what pain is. Heaven knows you do. But we pulled it together for our kids.

She should be putting you and your kids first and she's not. Only you know if this is her true self or just part of the fog. If it's part of the fog, that's good, she may eventually snap out of it, although that doesn't mean she doesn't need to still do a lot of changing. If that's how she really is, can she and will she change enough to make it worth staying with her?

Close the door. Post a sign on the door that states, "Knock if you are WS and agree to the following: <list of needed marital facets>.

Then, wait for a knock. If so, then you can respond, "C'mon in, the door's open."

This is metaphorically of course, you don't have to actually make a sign...but then again, maybe that would work too? :)

I like this analogy.

I forgot to tell you about Saturday...

Try to interpret objectively...

I went to my sister's house with a 6 pack at 4:30. The timing was intentional, to force her to figure out dinner. I fo course was invited to stay at my sister's (both for dinner, and for as long as I wanted for free). My WW called after I had been gone for less than an hour. I was honest with her..told her I was considering their offer...all she could say, over and over was "Please come home." She called again an hour after that. I eventually did, unsure if it was to pack or to stay, oh..I've already told this story. Sorry.

I think I may move out any day now, as it seems a necessary step. Our kids are the only ones in three marriages that don't know anyhting's wrong yet (although they may suspect something)...I have wanted to avoid that moment, but it is probably inevitable...the separation would be for me to think and her to sink...but when she sees her own children added to the tally of wounded...it won't be pretty, and I resent that I will be the one leaving and looking bad...she will either snap out of it and become the mom she was before...or she will flounder...either way, the day after I leave, I will swoop in and take my kids to my sister's for the evening, delivering them home at bedtime...if I am still there on the weekend..sleepover.

She needs to decide if she's in or out...my biggest fear is that she will want to saty for the wrong reasons...i told her repeatedly yesterday that I was interested in nothing less than a real marriage...

Learn from my mistakes. I am actually finding it therapeutic and empowering to be in this thread. I am seeing how I will be more effective, myself at 180. Because, I am a pretty awesome fucking woman and my husband chose to screw self absorbed, couch laying bitch instead.

People who do the shit that she's done are damaged in the way that we shouldn't even feel bad for them. They are in the positions they are in because it was their choice to AVOID the reality ("I'm depressed, I need help. My job sucks, I need to find another one...) and seek pleasure to erase the pain. OF COURSE she needs counseling. But it's not your job to coddle her til she gets better.

I didn't catch all the stuff with your MIL but...is there a chance your W grew up sort of babied? And that's what she's expecting from you?

Dude. I have had a lot of fucking pain. I've been depressed. I have two kids with special needs. And a baby. My kids play sports that I hate. Do you think it's a fucking PICNIC to take my kid to soccer practice three days a week? And then get my fat ass out of bed at 6 a.m. on a Sunday to get her to a tourney? Nope. It blows. I haven't done jack shit to escape the reality that THIS is MY LIFE. I love my kids, I love helping them do things that they love. I fake it till I make it a lot of days.

PS: I'm a marathon runner. That's how I deal with my shit. Use your biking to deal with yours.

STOP BEING NICE TO HER TODAY.

Great post Squiffle. Feb you are quickly losing ground. I have watched over this thread and saw people tell you quite clearly you need a list of demands. I guarantee you never addressed a list for her.

You are in a negotiation for the continuation of your marriage. You have been for a while. You are negotiating as if YOU are in the weak position.

Feb do you know what changed from the time your wife stated you could have a loveless coparenting relationship? Do you know what changed since she posted happy pics of herself on Facebook while missing her kids birthday????? Do you really think that perhaps while pedaling down the road with a group of men an epiphany came over her and she suddenly realized she loved you???

No....the only damn thing that

changed were her OPTIONS. Her men deserted her. She now

wears the scarlet A. She realizes life as a working single mom is not quite the sex kitten role she envisioned for herself.

She doesn't suddenly respect you. You are just all she has left.

So what do you go and do? Make more damn excuses for her. She is mopey because she rolled the dice and lost. Its your damn job now to make sure that YOU and MORE IMPORTANTLY your children are worth more than another roll at the dice. She may roll the dice again and you can't stop that. What you can do is show her RIGHT NOW what a second roll at the dice will cost her.

You don't see it now but you are putting a marriage with her above the well being of your family. She is showing you with every word and action you guys are a burden to her. What is worse is that by your current word and actions you are agreeing. And while this might be OK for you, this is surely not good for your kids.

To win any negotiation, the first thing a person must be willing to do is walk away. The second is to have a clearly defined list of non negotiables that make you stop negotiating if those things are not met. The third thing is to have the better negotiating position. You don't have 1&2. You have 3 but are trying to give it away with all you might.

If you can't negotiate a better marriage for yourself because it feels too selfish or whatever else is stopping you, the least you can do is negotiate a value for your children because right now they have no value to this whore.

[This message edited by MovinogPast at 12:18 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

.i told her repeatedly yesterday that I was interested in nothing less than a real marriage...

Good for you. I am amazed at your resolve through this whole event. I know it hasn't been easy.

I hope the mods take your and goose-ems threads, summarize them and post so future BS's can see how to make it through this hell.

[This message edited by SurvivingEA at 12:47 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

Feb.....

OK, bro.....here goes...

I have to jump on the band wagon. I know that you want your W back -- and want this WW gone -- but being soft isn't the way to get there. Family outing, walks and dessert are all things that should be waiting untin R is acutally in place.

Watch your wife - look for symptoms of depression....

One month after my DDay my FWW got a week or so in a hospital on a suicide watch (that'll pucker your ass!!)....i was in a "im fixin to be divorced mode - it was attorney time"....Oh...i heard all that WS bullshit - "ILYBINILWY", "we're just friends"..."you dont pay any attention to me"..."i dont want a divorce, lets just seperate". No way i was gonna put up with her "dating"....

Have you given her "that list" of demands for R??? Have you set your limitations??? Drawn that line in the dirt???

Bro....i know its a bitch, and you want your marriage back...BUT its gotta be on your terms...and its gonna take time...

Me?...i saved all the "family outings, walks, and desserts" until after i got that ol' "snotting, blubbering, crying, im so sorry i hurt you, mascara dripping off of her chin apology"...and this may take a while.....until i got that - i felt that she was just humpin' my leg..Until you see "true remorse"....you are just settin' yourself up for another DDay...(the first one was hard enough - no way i was gonna endure another one...).

Get back on that 180...let her know what your expectations are - all of them...and a walk in the park and a trip to the Dairy Queen aint gonna fix her - your wife has got to do alot of work - herself. She wont do it when shes got you "lickin' her calf for her" (redneck joke, pun actually - think about it).

She has alot of work to do BEFORE you let her back on the "bitch seat" (biker metaphor...as in Harley-Davidson)....KWIM?

R can be possible - but it TAKES alot of work and....time. Not tryin' to 2x4 ya, bro....methinks youre puttin' the wagon ahead of the horses...

good luck bro...

Bufffalo

She had a terrible job situation in September. Her workload was unfair, and her classes were awful

but know that she has taken many steps/courses to improve her job situation, but has been screwed over by admininstration)

Do you see a pattern here? How she tries so hard and her workload is unfair, her attempt to improve herself is screwed over by the administration. Now take it further and your M problems are not her fault because....wait for it, she doesn't find you attractive and needs someone else to feel the void in her.

I am not making excuses for her, just observations that I had made BEFORE anything had happened.

Yes you are making excuses for her, you are buying into she isn't responsible for her own life. That others are ruining her grand plans. Life isn't fair, to any of us, but we suck it up and keep fighting. We find new plans and move forward, not wallow in everyone is against us.

Feb, i know you think she took the hockey lessons to get closer to her boys. I disagreed. She took the hockey lessons to put the focus on HER and not having to spend time with the boys and being bored. This was once again a self centered act benefiting only her.

You went to your sister's place, leaving WS to deal with dinner and kids. It took what... a hour for her to call you, and another follow up call within the next hour to come home. This was for you once again to take on the responsibility of your family and make her lot easier.

She is home. The crap has hit the fan in the biking group. She is getting fallout from her actions. Now, have you heard her apologize to you for the pain she caused you? Have you heard her express any plan for getting your M back on track, or concern for the kids? SHE has to step up and start facing the fact that she is the cause of all the turmoil that is happening in her life? Has she done any of these? No, well until she does, you will not be moving forward to any decent R unless she can start pulling her own weight.

You have great empathy for her, you love her. Don't make the mistake of taking on her burdens, you do her a disservice. She needs this to grow up and actually decide what her life is going to look like. She is currently just reactive and going along. She needs to do the work, you can't do it for her, not matter how full your heart is of love.

[This message edited by momentintime at 12:47 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

(((SI Community)))

I got that idea from Soveryalone...his thread is further down the page. I'm not sure why mine has generated such interest, but I'm grateful. I hope others see parts of themselves in me and can learn and grow from reading this, otherwise I feel very guilty for monopolizing so much time and knowledge!

I am humbled and thankful by the amount of time and thought so many of you ahve put in to help me.

Believe me, i am listening...I am also trying not to put my kids through the worst experience of their young lives if it a can be avoided, or to use them, intentionally or not, as pawns...or to burn bridges (although I now believe that is not how it works...still it FEELS like it).

I can not read all of the amazing advice fast enough, especially since I want to read most of it 3-4 times...

About the kids:

I have read and read and read, and we used this approach ourselves.

The kids KNOW something is up. OK. Don't deny that. Just accept it and decide how to handle. Look at the ages and handle it age appropriately. I personally don't think it needs to be a grand formal meeting where everyone breaks down and the shit hits the fan and dad looks like an ass. I think with the older 2, you take them on a walk, or for ice cream after practice. Sitting on the bench, or while you are walking, bring up and ask them. Have you noticed mom and I kinda fighting a lot lately?? What do you think?? Mom isn't feeling well lately? Have you noticed? If you can ask open ended questions, they will spill it. They will tell you what they know. Then you can put togehter what you want to say.

You just be open and HONEST, tell them you are trying to work it out, but in order to give you and mom space, and hopefully not fight anymore, you are going to sleep at your sisters for a few nights. Tell them YOU ARE GETTING HELP from a counselor, and have a lot to talk about with mom. If they ask what, tell them that is for married people, and it is complicated. But that you are trying to fix it if possible. YOu love them and you will be honest with them about it. TELL THEM THIS. Tell them if they are scared or sad or have questions, to come to you and ask.

THe hardest part is if they hear something and ask you about it. You need to answer them honestly. No matter what. You can avoid details , but don't lie or cover up. They will lose respect for you and they will lose trust for you. (I grew up in a home where my mom had affairs, I always knew).

Just reassure them. But be open and honest and encourage them to talk to you.

I would also lay down some rules with WW about how this is to be handled on her end, too.

(((HUGS))))

Feb,

Do not forget that in the last 2 months, the real progress has been made for yourself WHEN YOU STOOD YOUR GROUND. And your WW tried to renegotiate with you when you stood firm.

You have been detaching, and that is great. But it is SOOOOOO easy to give that up when you want to make your marriage work in the worst possible way.

Your marriage still has a shot, but ONLY if you stand firm and keep the pressure on.

And what are you really asking for? A wife that is committed to you and the marriage. Is that too much to ask for?

It is ridiculous that we even have to demand this from our spouses---yet here we are.

Like the others are saying---don't soften up. It will eliminate any progress you have made these last weeks. Your WW needs tough love right now more than any other time in her life.

THAT--tough love--is the one thing that you ARE ALLOWED to "give" to your WW at this time.

[This message edited by jb3199 at 1:11 PM, April 4th (Monday)]

The kids KNOW something is up. OK. Don't deny that. Just accept it and decide how to handle. Look at the ages and handle it age appropriately. I personally don't think it needs to be a grand formal meeting where everyone breaks down and the shit hits the fan and dad looks like an ass. I think with the older 2, you take them on a walk, or for ice cream after practice. Sitting on the bench, or while you are walking, bring up and ask them. Have you noticed mom and I kinda fighting a lot lately?? What do you think?? Mom isn't feeling well lately? Have you noticed? If you can ask open ended questions, they will spill it. They will tell you what they know. Then you can put togehter what you want to say.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you...this is good. Uh, any advice on how to handle my 4 year old "daddy's girl"? I'm almost crying again even comntemplating it.

jb3199 - you are right, as are so many others. It's hard for me to do, because it is not my natural inclination.

Feb ~

Here is a bit of advice that I give to my young-adult children and friends.

Do you really want someone who doesn't really want you?

If you settle for someone who views you NOT as Number ONE choice then YOU are going to be the one doing all the work for the entire relationship. After all, you are the one who wants to keep her...and not the other way around.

I am not saying that you are settling for your wife. I think she has to really decide what SHE wants. You know you want your wife back and your marriage to be worked on until it is awesome. However, you can't make a marriage all by yourself.

I think a lot of the advice here about the 180 is great. If you choose to 180 then you need to be unavailable to her relationally. Why would she need to call you when you have only been gone for 30 min? Unless one of the kids was gushing blood.....

You aren't doing anything to push her off the fence. She has everything she wants. In essence, she is cake-eating and you are accepting it as progress.

I know the risk is so scary. It is frightening to think that she may not want you after all this. However, do you really have her now? I dare say, "No, you don't."

What are you willing to accept? What kind of marriage do you want? How long will you choose to continue to live like this?

She needs to decide so you can then make decisions accordingly.

Hugs and Hugs