SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Before part 2, while at work today, or take an hour after work, but I think it is really really really important that you put together your list of requirements for R to even be considered.

1. NC

2. Transparency

3. No rides alone with men. Must include you. (for now) eventually maybe could include females. But not yet

4. IC

5. Honesty, full accounting of any questions you need answered

6. Participation of family/kids activities (not just showing up).

7. Reading, journaling in an effort to fix M, herself, and be a good mother. (I am not sure she knows what this means).

8. Anything else I left off from the pages back around pg. 15 or ??

I know she is hitting rock bottom. The thing you have to remember, is that if you donm't let her be the one to start working on and changing things, and you start trying to "keep the family" together, be there for her, feel bad for her (which anyone would b/c you love her), etc... If you do any of this too soon, she will immediately start into the manipulation trap, b/c she has the last few years.

You said yourself that she isn't the same woman these last few years that she was before. You are in love with the woman before. SHe is going to need time and to do a lot of work ON HER OWN, to become the woman she can be, BUT, it won't be the same woman from 10 years ago (or whatever #). You have both changed, her too, and even if you get your wife back and she works and does everything she needs to do (only in a perfect world) she will not be the same person.

But, you have to have the conversation of what it will take to continue, to TRY to R, etc.... I know you miss her, feel bad for her and love her. If you do (and I know you do) you have to do this, so that she cant sabotage it (even unwittingly).

Kind of like a drug addict or alcoholic. They love their family and would never hurt them, knowingly. BUT, when they get to the point where they are withdrawing adn NEED it, they can't think straight, they will lie and manipulate.

Not that your wife is an addict, I am not saying that, but until she gets help thru IC, you can't let her get comfy in the house/marriage. B/C then she will manipulate and not do the work she needs to do. And trust me on this, if she gets to comfortable to soon, it is 10 times harder to address the issues and get her to do the work. (I caved too early the first time. I loved him and wanted to make it better. I wanted to believe we could just have what we used to have. You can't. That is over.) Grieve it, but know you can have a good marriage, but only if she gets help. Be strong on this.

The "Reasons" (job, kids, hockey)

At least she is now admitting what was going on...I saw all of this as far back as September. She was a happy, involved mother in the summer. She initiated the idea of our two week family vacation (I was worried about the boys fighting in the van for 20 hours straight) and generally, life seemed normal and good.

She had a terrible job situation in September. Her workload was unfair, and her classes were awful. I could see it, and resolved to be as supportive as possible. Our boys (tell me I'm not alone here, someone), seem to have a school day habit of saving all of their negativity for each other at the end of the day, so when we would get home at the end of the day, just as she needed to decompress, the would unleash on each other. I am not making excuses for her, just observations that I had made BEFORE anything had happened. I could feel the life being sucked out of her. The boys both play hockey, house league, plus an extra "select" game or practice/week. She doesn't like the game of hockey, but give her credit, for Christmas 2 years ago, she asked for and received hockey equipment, took a women's beginner's course (she's a good skater) and considered joining a league, all so she could share in her sons' interest. Anyway, the additional Select team was MY idea, thinking both my boys (especially the oldest) could benefit from the extra camaraderie and self-esteem (especially the oldest) of being on the "Select" team. This was a source of some disagreement, as it meant that winter seemed to be only hockey, and that XC skiing or other activites would be far harder to schedule. She had a point.

My point is that I had seen all of these contributing factors, had tried to manage them and support her as much as possible, but I knew that it was going to be a rough few months...I just never in my wildest nightmares imagined it would manifest itself into her having an affair.

That is a round about way of me saying that when I first found out, I mentioned all of these as contributing factors (because of them, I would let her/encourage her to find some stress relief in riding 2-3/week), she minimized them all. She is no longer doing that. She is trying to figure out how she got to the point where she was willing to risk her marriage and family. She is coming closer to realizing that there may be "something wrong with her" (I suspect depression far more than NPD) and may yet accept IC in more than a grudging way.

She has been bemoaning the fact that a year ago, in her first days off, she was staying home and baking bread with our youngest, feeling "centered", and that now she doesn't feel centred on her kids, but WANTS TO BE.

Are we making progress? Maybe. I she? Possibly.

Part 3: Oh $#@%, I'm on page 26, now and can't copy/paste/quote everything I wanted to repsond to...

Oh, open another tab, right.

Really -- if she's willing to bail? LET HER

She mentioned that once, she realizes that she could not handle being a single mom...I did try to continue the train of thought, but it disappeared just as quickly.

"Buses"

I would hate to be a bus driver in our area right now. They are swerving all over the road to avoid WSs...

Both OM have gone NC...OM1 told his BW that my WW was the aggressor, she says he truly is a "shark" who has had multiple affairs and is always on the prowl...my WW has received very nasty e-mails and FB messages from the OBW and S of one. But omg, last night my W reminded me of a conversation that I had forgotten...one day, in the fall, she had told me that she and OM2 had been becoming good friends, and that she had told him if he ever tried "crossing the line" she would "slug him". I trusted her so much at the time, I didn't think much of it, except to think, "Attagirl."..in fact, it didn't even register WHO she was talking about, or that maybe she was trying to tell me something. DAMN.

She is over 40, She now has no friends or social group to call her own that was pretty much destoryed with her A. She also now has the reputation of being a cheater (believe me the former group will make it known). She will have the kids for the weekend that she see as a demanding. Most men on the dating sceen do not want to be saddled with this woman. You however are in the better place already. You will come out of this with your head held high, You will end up with the love and respect of your children. If you do D after sometime has pass you will find someone special.

You see unlike your WW most women find men who are single dad most of the time. They find those type of men very attractive. It seems to be a double standard for single parents, go figure. But as of now focus on your kids they are most important. They will need a strong roll model and loving parent and that you.

I am not by nature, vengeful, but I do see all of that, and I have thought about it too. It's not a terrible fallback position.

bigger - we own 2/3 of the house...but the point is, I could buyout 1/2 of the little equity WE have in our 2/3 share, but no way could I buyout my MIL entire 1/3 share. WW wouldn't have to.

My kid runs freaking cross country. I stand in the cold for hours and watch him run by me once, maybe twice.

That's exactly like watching a MTB race!

WHY???? many fathers now a days have custody of their kids. Sounds like you are the one there for them most of the time so WHY NOT you??

When we talk S/D, we do so rationally and obviously shared custody is most likely...but even shared custody needs a primary residence...that would be our current home if they want to buy me out...but she knows she can't handle that, becuase she can't imagine working full-time in her current job (see post above - but know that she has taken mnay steps/courses to improve her job situation, but has been screwed over by admininstration)

Gotta go

SHE IS LAYING IN BED????!!!!

So many thoughts running through my head and no time to formulate them.....

For the moment...I will just say....she needs to step up her game; you need to stop making excuses for her.

And you BOTH need to define what you want.

SHE IS LAYING IN BED????!!!!

No, she was up and reading to our D when I left.

She WANTED to stay in bed. She is in a pretty dark place right now, perhaps depressed, definitely feeling lost, confuesed and guilty.

I am a little confused..if she was cheerful and rug-sweeping, you'd call her sociopathic, but becasue she's moping around and barely functioning she's _______________?

Isn't approaching rock-bottom a sign that she is coming out of the fog and taking some responsibility and ownership for her actions and the consequences?

Please don't stop posting squiffle, I value your viewpoint precisely because I tend to defend her and look for positives, but what could she be doing that would be progress in your eyes?

You seem to hate her as much as the S of OM2, and that's a LOT!

When you are in the center of a shit storm, as you are now, it is very difficult to recognize clinical depression in your WW. I have BTDT. Looking back over the years, I can see very clearly that my W was in very deep clinical depression; at the time all I could see was my pain although I did recognize, at some level, that she was depressed. I just didn't comprehend the severity.

These last few posts of yours have really laid out a much more clear picture of your WW. She has all the earmarks of a clinical depression. Buffalo made a good call on that.

My wife refused to believe that she needed help. Mainly, she was determined not to be put on medication because her mother had becomed addicted to anit-depressants. And I can tell you that the lack of treatment really, really made the whole recovery and R process more difficult and problematic.

You need to do everything you can to convince her to get the treatment she needs. If she does, perhaps you will find the woman you married reappear.

It's truly amazing to me that you can keep your head so straight after going through hell and back the past few weeks.

You're WS will drown in the stupidity well if she doesn't do anything and everything to keep you as her husband.

Good Luck to you.

Feb - You are doing fine.

We all have opinions and our views are based on both our own experiences, and on what we've learned from the many situations that have played out here on SI...but this is your life, and you will have to make decisions that work for you and your family. Right now, time is on your side, and for the first time in a long time, you are finally in the drivers seat. Make each decision carefully, and with full consderation of how impacts your future. Your WW has very few bargaining chips, and it is always possible that the person you know as wife will return.

No doubt, she needs IC and mental health care, plus, she has a lot of work to do before she could be considered as a viable partner. For now, let her do most of the talking as long as it is headed in a direction of honesty and remorse. Remember too, that he 180 is still the best way to protect your own mental health.

You're WS will drown in the stupidity well if she doesn't do anything and everything to keep you as her husband.

This quote is so simultaneously funny, uplifting and meaningful to me that I will resist the teacher inside me that wants to correct the grammar. Thank you, chocobcm

Thanks Feb. I happen to teach High School English myself, but I think some statements just deserve poetic license.

Keep your chin up. You're doing great.

Feb,

I'd just like to state that I wish my dumbass WS was as concerned about MY emotions as you are about your WW's.

You're a pretty stand up guy.

And she's a shit pile for not kissing the ground you walk on.

I am a little confused..if she was cheerful and rug-sweeping, you'd call her sociopathic, but becasue she's moping around and barely functioning she's _______________?

I think there is a tendency to utterly demonize WS's here. They can't do anything right. Any action or attitude of theirs is condemned. That's a natural reaction of most of us here to the pain of what we've been through. I think there are elements of vicarious vengeance sometimes.

From what you say, I do think your wife is still foggy, but I don't think she's evil incarnate or utterly irresponsible in her capacity as a mother. Frankly, I think - if you so desire - your marriage has a chance. I say a chance because there are too many unknowns (even to you, let alone to any of us posting on this board) to guarantee anything. Your WW is far from the most despicable or clueless example of a wayward I've seen here at SI.

My advice remains to play hardball. Proceed with D under the counsel of an atty, but allow your WW a clear path to work towards a rebuilt marriage. This requires you to be clear in your own expectations, and boundaries, and to have a concrete plan in place.

Hang in there.

[This message edited by rivenheart at 9:32 AM, April 4th (Monday)]

You're a pretty stand up guy.

And she's a shit pile for not kissing the ground you walk on.

I am coping well thanks to chocolate and coffee

Chocolate is a gift. Hang in there!

Gracee

Please don't stop posting squiffle, I value your viewpoint precisely because I tend to defend her and look for positives, but what could she be doing that would be progress in your eyes?

Here's what Progress looks like, Feb:

She is focused on YOU. Her kids. The pain and suffering she caused the CHILDREN of her APs. The agony she caused those BSs.

Mostly tho -- YOU.

I don't see that. I see her wanting YOU to make it better for it. She dealt you this shit hand. SHE did. If anyone should be laying around in bed in a funk after what transpired last week? It should be YOU.

She should be, yeah, kissing the ground you walk on. Asking you what SHE can do to make it better for YOU. She should be making those goddamn lunches and breakfasts. Not taking the light, fun path of reading to DD. (Which makes her the Good, Fun Parent. Mac n' cheese prep? Not so much.)

I don't see that dynamic. I see you making excuses for her and later, when I'm not on deadline, perhaps I will parse the bullshit.

Feb -- reading on this board are people who are single mothers. People who got cheated on when pregnant. With special needs kids. Who walked in on the act. Some real horrible shit dealt to them. Let me tell you how many of the SI crowd dealt --

THEY GOT UP AND DID THEIR FUCKING JOB.

They held it together for the kids. They went to work. They sobbed in the bathroom. They washed their face and walked back into that meeting. They did what they needed to do. They worked hard because their families NEEDED them.

They didn't lay in bed in a depressed state and wallow in fucking self pity.

THAT is who you are married to. And why it doesn't piss you off amazes me.

I am coping well thanks to chocolate and coffee

I put up 15 lbs in the weeks after Dday, due to chocolate consumption. (Unfortunately for me the infidelity diet kicked in the wrong way.)

Your WW is far from the most despicable or clueless example of a wayward I've seen here at SI.

Feb - I think you are doing great. I think your WW is finally realizing the impact of everything that she has done. I do think there is hope, but don't get your hopes up too much.

(((Feb)))

Thank you Squiffle. Thank you thank you thank you. For screaming with reality.

I am one of those moms you talk about. I am deeply deeply offended by anyone excusing this woman's behavior. A mother who does this shit to her kids and the father of her kids is NOT a mother. Maybe she was a year ago, but today, she isn't.

Not only have I had the gift of Post Traumatic Affair shit, I got to deal with simeltaneous trickle truth. I don't have a Mommy who lives any where near me. After multiple DDays, I was left to make the breakfast, lunches, and dinners for two kids and nurse a newborn. While WH was off 'working' (aka continuing to text another married whore). No one held my hand. There was no laying in bed for me.

Fuck her shit. POOR HER.

I'm sorry, but if you continue to make excuses for her, she's going to continue her bull shit.

You went out for DESSERT with her LAST NIGHT?

WHAT?

You should have said, "see ya, I'm going out for a break" and let HER ass deal with reality.

She sounds a lot like my WH's OW. TOTALLY out of touch with the real world and what MOST people have to deal with on a daily basis. Know what that bitch's been doing since her DDays? Laying in bed. Making her H take care of the kids and house. It's just a different version of cake eating.

I think I may need some more INeedMoreCoffee. (and Squiffle).

I was afraid that I would not keep up my 180 when she got back from her bike trip...which is incidentally why I wanted her to go..to build my resolve and strength...I can see my emotions are getting in the way...ironically it is often my love for my kids that is making me vulnerable...being at work helps...

I can and will be stronger. She has shown progress, but has a long way to go.

For the record, she collapsed on the bed, after getting up and showering and changing, and said she would like to just stay there all day, BUT she did get up and get moving...

The dessert was an effort ot go for a walk together (just the two of us) for the first time in years. I think we are both feeling out whether we are headed towards R or D...I am trying to be cautious and wary too.