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It's crazy to me how she seems more upset/sad about losing the group than possibly losing her marriage.

I honestly don't see this ending well.

Sorry :(

Many things have been discussed...

She is upset that she can no longer ride with the group, but she also said it was her own fault, a break from the blameshifting. She also said that she knew she was risking it at the time, and that she wished she hadn't.

She is starting to talk about other issues that I have thought all along were contributing factors...she doesn't like her job, our kids can be stressful and demanding, we had't made time to do things together, etc. Our boys both play hockey (2 teams each, but not nearly as much as kids in "Rep." hockey play) and she HATES it, rarely comes to the games, and I often end up with all three at the arena. Hockey is pretty much over, so this is her golden time (no hockey, off work, nicer weather)...she could be happy now, but Septmeber brings work stress and hockey again.

I told her that all parents with three kids have it tough and make sacrifices, but she finds it harder than she thought. She has agreed to consider counselling

(((Feb))) - This sounds like a good start to me. All of these things of course she chose to avoid doing anything about or solving - a little like putting one's hands over one's ears and refusing to listen (to the sense that is probably inside her all along). Getting to the bottom of that avoidance through counselling would be good.

Many modern-day marriages can end up making the mistake of being too child-centred, though the very fact that your wife belonged t her group and could train and take ten days' away sounds like you two maybe had not fallen completely into that trap.

I wonder if your kids are all boys and if that has any additional bearing on some of the contributing factors?

I don't think she is necessarily more upset about losing the group as suggested above - perhaps mortification is setting in, as all of this is news to the group, whereas it is not news to you, and she is still concerned about others' reactions. And realising that she probably looks quite silly.

It's good that you're talking. Not sure she's reached rock bottom yet. Think the right therapy for you each individually could be very beneficial. Don't think you should move out at all - she breached the marital home.

So let's see.

She has destroyed 3 marriages and harmed numerous kids.

But she is "upset" about losing her friends.

She doesn't does want sex with her husband.

But she wants sex with other guys, and hopes hubby can deal.

She wants good vibes with her kids.

But doesn't want to support their interests.

She trained for a job that helps support the family.

But she hates it.

She doesn't do housework.

She is ready to discard her H who hass supported her mother through major illness.

And she is willing to steal $5,000 from her family to get cosmetic surgery on the sly, undoubtedly to make herself attractive to other married men.

So under these conditions, she is willing to "consider" counselling.

Brother, this woman does not need a shrink. She needs an exorcist.

You should have jumped at the idea of her moving out. It sounds like the best of all possible worlds to me. You do not have to listen to the drivel she has been saying.

And why would she want you to come home from dinner with your family? To give you more insight into her sterling character?

I am kinda thinking she is looking for something to blame her actions on.

Many WS's blame the kids. YOu loved the kids, you put the kids first, the schedule made me crazy, never time for me, etc... I see that this happens, we had it happen here, BUT, I also call bullshit. It's not like she was going to most of these games. You said yourself she was not going and was staying home. You have said before how much she CHOSE to ride with the others, and had to be in a group b/c riding early or on her own "didn't work for her".

My point, I guess, is that she is self centered. When you have kids, they grow up and participate (hopefully) in activities. As a parent, you go and watch and cheer them on. Even if you are bored out of your mind, you are there for the kids. SHe doesn't see this as important. And now, she is twisting this as her excuse.

Part of me says, that she is scratching and clawing her way and slowly coming around. While my FWH was sorry after Dday, he was also looking for excuses. Things to blame it on. He actually tried the kid thing. (all we do is go to swim). Excuse me, but he was at class, choosing to work over and spending time with OW while I did swim with the kids.

It is a twisted logic that they look for something to blame, some excuse to reason how selfish they are. It is the same as saying all we do is fight, when the fighting started b/c of his guilt after the affair was going on.

Don't accept it. There is a chance that this is her trying to make excuses and slowly coming out of the fog. THere is also a chance that she has no concept for what she is doing, and is self consumed.

Check with an attorney before you move out. I would hate for some weird abondonment law to screw you.

Good Luck

Feb, did you give her your list of conditions for R?

Okay, the response you report was far from great. Frankly though, it could have been far worse. I don't hear her blaming you, exactly, and she is admitting some fault as well. The marriage is definitely on life support, but it's not yet clear whether it will ever have a real life again.

Feb, I agree with the advice to let a lawyer handle things from here as much as possible. Do the 180. Separate yourself as much as possible without leaving the home unless instructed by your atty. Proceed with D. If things turn around, you can always halt those proceedings, but she's a very long way from being ready to work on R. Act accordingly.

God it really sucks that she can't ride bikes with her friends now.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how'd you like the play?

You need to JUMP on her offer to move out and see the kids on the weekends. And I would call the MIL's bluff and let her move out with WW, if that's where her loyalties lie.

Really -- if she's willing to bail? LET HER.

But really... the fairest scenario I see here is a new start for everyone -- sell the house. Sure, everyone has to readjust, but you aren't living with your MIL -- and you avoid all the hell scenarios of the KISA thing. She gets to leave her M with all the cash and parting gifts. New guy(s) move in. Talk to a lawyer.

I don't see her coming out of the "fog." I see her blameshifting. I see a hell of a lot of Poor Me. So what if she said she can't play MTB with her buddies and it's her fault? DUH. You exposed the As. What else is she going to say?

As for time with the kids?! Feb, I was a single mother for many years -- her future as a single mom is three kids 24/7. That's a dose of reality she needs. Oh, here's another dose -- I don't care how many tummy tucks she gets -- those guys aren't going to want to fuck her when she's a single mom of three. Oh no. Her stock just tanked. When WSs are both married, well, it's mutually assured annihilation. Little thrill on the side. "No one gets hurt." When she's a single mother in her 40s and she'd like to find a relationship and she's a cheater to boot? Oh yeah, and she's now working and managing to take care of three children? Not much time for the swinging lifestyle. She's gone from edgy married adventurer to pathetic person on dating scene.

She is thinking of her options and not liking any of them, except somehow tricking you into letting her eat more cake. If she considers her single life -- and wants part time mommying -- LET HER. Get it in writing!

Oh and the hating her job thing is rich. Didn't you say she QUIT her job? You can sacrifice and sweeten her deal any way you want and it's not enough.

The problem is her. I agree with the exorcism comment.

OMG. More blameshifting. It really is all about HER and her selfishness. Now she's blaming her job and the kids? What kind of mother is not interested in her children's activities? Notice she put her own activities ahead of her marriage and children. This is so incredibly selfish. She may have NPD. She is definitely broken inside.

Okay. The KIDS? Really?

Really?

I'm sorry. She signed UP to be a mother. When you sign up you don't get to say, "well, if it gets tough, I might take some time off from being a big girl, and go pretend I'm 18, single, and fuck everything with two legs"

Sorry. I have a BIG problem with women with that mentality. THAT isn't owning her shit. It's blame shifting. The fact that she didn't even prepare her children for the transition of her leaving for a long trip, during a birthday, speaks volumes of her personality.

"Being a mom is hard. I don't like hockey. I will get banged and forget my worries."

She needs to GROW THE FUCK UP.

And you're going to LEAVE the children with HER? Please seriously consider that. It's like leaving lambs with a wolf to babysit.

Yea, I'm hard. But shitty mothers bug me.

Really?

I'm sorry. She signed UP to be a mother. When you sign up you don't get to say, "well, if it gets tough, I might take some time off from being a big girl, and go pretend I'm 18, single, and fuck everything with two legs"

Sorry. I have a BIG problem with women with that mentality. THAT isn't owning her shit. It's blame shifting. The fact that she didn't even prepare her children for the transition of her leaving for a long trip, during a birthday, speaks volumes of her personality.

"Being a mom is hard. I don't like hockey. I will get banged and forget my worries."

She needs to GROW THE FUCK UP.

And you're going to LEAVE the children with HER? Please seriously consider that. It's like leaving lambs with a wolf to babysit.

Yea, I'm hard. But shitty mothers bug me.

YES........THIS!!!!

It's obvious that that your WW is pretty fucked-up!!! Two things....(1). Help her find some professional help and wait and see if she can change. (2). Take advantage of stupid! She obviously has detach from you and the kids(and reallity), why not get what you can while the getting good! I'm sure she would be willing to give up her responsibilities(wife,mother) for a cash settlement. She's already said she would move out and only see the kids on the weekend....that's a great offer if you ask me..... Take her up on it, but get it in writing.

I have to agree with the others on this...

She claims the kids are demanding/too much, the hockey is too much (yet she rarely visits games), hates her job, etc.

I could be off on this, but it's sounding like she resents anything that got in the way of her riding/training/extracurricular...and I'm going to guess that a part of her underlying reason for that is probably the obvious: it detracted from time that could be had with 'friends'/OM.

It appears to me that she wasn't really all that put out about the hockey thing anyway, so what's the issue? Why the 'hate' for their activity? If it wasn't a financial strain, the kids weren't over-scheduled and enjoyed hockey, why wouldn't a parent both enjoy and support a team-building, confidence-building and physically beneficial activity for their children?

These still smack of excuses and justifications...and putting this off on demanding children (especially grade-school age) and things THEY like to do is jaw-droppingly ridiculous to me...especially from a mother.

It's good that she is at least giving lip-service to the fact that she messed some things up and might have reasons for 'why' -- she definitely could use the help of a counselor to figure out why she feels like the 'burden' of motherhood and work play a part in her feeling that way because I'm betting that for most mothers, their children enjoying themselves is a happy thing, not burdensome.

ETA: What I'm getting at with the counseling, is that her 'feeling' of kids as burden, work, and probably because it got in the way of her rides/time with others, including OM, is that if I'm right about the detracting from time with OM and rides being a put-off in her mind, there is an underlying reason why she felt like she 'needed' all that and why the other stuff irritated her...that's what she needs to figure out.

[This message edited by SomewhatWorried at 6:52 PM, April 3rd (Sunday)]

Sounds like a garden variety NPD. You should take this opportunity to get out, IMO.

Feb – her complaints are moot when examined in the content of what’s going on.

They might all be valid; there might be grounds for each and every claim.

BUT none of them explain led to, justify or led to having sex outside the marriage.

“I hate the hockey schedule so best I blow this man” does NOT make sense.

The complaints might have value when examined in the content of improving the marriage IF that happens but right now stick to “I’m sorry you feel that way BUT these emotions have no relevance in the infidelity”.

Feb – It’s too early for such details but I want to cite an example on how you don’t be white knight: Yes – if MIL owns half the house and you and WW half then chances are your share is a quarter. Chances are it will be easier for your WW to buy you out. That does not have to be in direct cash – it can also be in the form of forfeiting pension rights or savings. Main thing is: don’t sacrifice anything of value without careful thought.

Feb.....

Have you considered that your wife may be depressed?? ....i mean "depressed in the clinic sense"...not just sad...

I googled "depression" and my FWW fit almost all of the symptoms of depression.....this puts a new twist on some of the things she has done and is saying....Depression is called the "me" disease, acting selfish is one of the traits of someone who is depressed....at least look into it.

Discounting "exit" affairs.....Affairs are self-medication that people use to escape from reality....much like drugs, drinking, gambling, etc.....

Not trying to justify your wifes actions -just that my FWW's depression played a role in her decision to have an affair - among other behaviors....IC helped her through all of them...IC that should been done years earlier....

Does your wife intend to seek IC for her pre-affair issues - yes she has some....JMO.

Good luck, bro....

Keep us posted...

Bufffalo

[This message edited by bufffalo at 8:12 PM, April 3rd (Sunday)]

(((FEB)))

did I miss something?

I refuse to be a "White KNight", bigger, but the reality is that blood is thicker than water, as we all expected, so the one scenario that is impossible long-term is me staying with the kids.

WHY???? many fathers now a days have custody of their kids. Sounds like you are the one there for them most of the time so WHY NOT you??

stay strong and listen to the good advise you are getting here on SI.

Feb, your WS is afraid and unwilling to accept responsibility.....for your M, for your kids, for her job, for being a bad mother.

She wants to move out and only see the kids on weekends because she doesn't want to deal with them, not in any real sense. Any mother who would choose a bike ride for herself over making her child's birthday special is self centered and selfish to the extreme, and for her to not mention to that child that she was bailing on him. No she left that task to you. She is cold.

Feb, honestly what I see is her pushing the kids off on you and doing nothing to nurture them. She wants your paycheck and your babysitting services. She isn't offering anything in return. What is wrong with this picture?

I know you see this, feel this, and also that you have hope it may change. Seriously, time to give up the hope, take off the rose colored glasses and see the reality of your M. I am sorry if that is harsh, but it is also true.

It's crazy to me how she seems more upset/sad about losing the group than possibly losing her marriage

I don't find this surprising given the way she has acted. At every turn she has chosen the group over her family and husband.

The group fed her ego and her need for attention/validation. It allowed her to maintian the good mom/family/wife persona while she got her fix pursuing and being pursed by different 'friends'. It is barftasticly clear what she was doing and why.

And now all that is gone. If she is as entitled as you have described-- she is probably seriously pissed about it even as she has to swallow it and take it as--- she did it.

feb- you are a good man trying to see both sides. But right now about 95 % of what is coming out of her mouth is bullshit.

Hockey is boring and stressful? Tough shit. My kid runs freaking cross country. I stand in the cold for hours and watch him run by me once, maybe twice. And you know what makes all the boring stressful shit worthwhile....? Seeing him go through the process of what being on a team is all about. Watching him grow and succeed and even fail. Having him let me into that world has nothing to do with how boring and slow his dumb ass sport is. It is about being a part of my kids life. And believe me you are invited in less and less as they grow.

Being a parent isn't the big moments. It is the million little moments. Each little step away from you. I am sure that you noticed the first time one of your sons could tie his own skates. It is a mixture of pride and oh.. he doesn't need me for that anymore...ouch. Is she to obtuse to miss all that?

She is full of shit. She is a woman used to doing less of the work and getting what she wants. Not because you are weak. But because you love her and are trying to support her.

I think she is playing chicken with you. She is used to manipulating you into her way of thinking. If she isn't playing chicken you are right to let her go. If she is... this is the time to win....

DON NOT BLINK FIRST.

Come here and expose your heart and hope. but not to her. Not right now.

hang in there...

Feb-

As a single mother of three who also works fulltime, I can't believe some of the things that come out of her mouth. Guess who has gone to every one of my daughter's activities? me. Guess who they come to when they have a problem? me. Guess who they know will follow through with promises that are made? me. Guess who they trust? me. Guess who they post things on facebook about? me. I honestly think it is because even though I worked fulltime and did all of the cooking, cleaning, etc while their workaholic father was out doing whatever, but I. was. there. for. them. They remember,they know. So will your kids. Since you are a male and your wife hasn't been the one at the hockey games, involved in their lives, you may be able to show that it is in your son's best interests to live with you. She's desperate now because she is finally starting to realize that she has screwed up and her gravy train is about to dry up. Stay strong.

There is alot of good advice here so listen carefully to what the members here are saying. Your M maybe on life support, but your kids are alive and well and they right now are the priority. As someone just said your WW just gave you lip service on owning her own shit. It was mentioned before how your WW is going have a hard time living that free single life, but as it was mentioned.

She is over 40, She now has no friends or social group to call her own that was pretty much destoryed with her A. She also now has the reputation of being a cheater (believe me the former group will make it known). She will have the kids for the weekend that she see as a demanding. Most men on the dating sceen do not want to be saddled with this woman. You however are in the better place already. You will come out of this with your head held high, You will end up with the love and respect of your children. If you do D after sometime has pass you will find someone special.

You see unlike your WW most women find men who are single dad most of the time. They find those type of men very attractive. It seems to be a double standard for single parents, go figure. But as of now focus on your kids they are most important. They will need a strong roll model and loving parent and that you.

[This message edited by Nightlord at 11:54 PM, April 3rd (Sunday)]

Just want to pile on.

I cannot agree more with the mothering comments. Your WW has a giant, sucking void where her maternal feelings should be. Please go read "Why Is It Always About You?" -- a field guide to narcissists. Really, IMO (as it has been from the start) is that your WW is a personality disorder.

I was married to an NPD -- and it's like seeing ghosts now -- that's why I could predict the span of Options A-C.

My point is -- you're the better parent BY FAR. I'm sure part of her spin is how much she loves her kids -- you post that here -- but her ACTIONS tell a different story. And, is the case with NPDs, I assume they "love" -- but it's not a love that is good for you. It's like color blind people think they can see red. Well, they see something, but it's not the actual RED that sighted people see.

If I were you, I would find the meanest, most bad ass lawyer I could find in all of Ontario and I'd go after her for custody. Which hey, if she's offering that to you now? TAKE IT. It's expensive to rattle that saber. But if it comes to it, fight for those kids.

I'm sure a judge, like us, will read the tale of biking with three men, after a series of exposed affairs, not saying goodbye and missing a child's birthday as a pretty good indicator of her character. You've got a lot to work with. Push HARD.

Whatever you do, don't R with the monster that is before you. I don't see anything in what you've posted that isn't pure manipulation and bullshit.

Wow,

I don't know if I have time to respond to everything...

My day yesterday first...We decided to take a family walk in the local off-leash dog-park/conservation area yesterday morning. Both boys whined, complained, even yelled about how boring it would be, but eventually came. This is another family problem...ages 4,7 , almost 10..hard to find anything that a family of five would enjoy...I continually made the point (to the boys)about the huge # of hours D and I spent at hockey arenas in the last six months, and that they had better try being less selfish. (yes, you could cut the irony with a knife). It turned out to be a lot of fun. The kids took their bikes, our daughter won the "guess how many dogs" competition (my idea) with 50 (there were 68), and she was unhurt when a dog took out my WW while she was holding her and they both went flying. This has been something missing in our lives, and if we are to R, I believe that it will be a family effort,(even if the kids are clueless). Having three has made it so much harder to do this sort of thing...we used to do family outings all the time (often her idea - I want you all to know that my WW is not my W - something has changed over the last few years)

The positive morning notwithstanding, a few hours later, I was packing my bags to go stay at my sisters for awhile, when I lost all composure thinking of telling our kids. Our D is such a daddy's girl, I can't imagine her pain if I left (or mine - which is why I was crying my eyes out). Our oldest is a very sensitive kid when he's not fighting with his brother, and our middle is very loving, wehn he's not being cool and aloof. I couldn't imagine telling any of them that I was moving out for awhile, implicitly becoming the bad guy because I wouldn't/couldn't say why. My wife walked in on me at this point, obviously bad timing, and we had another long conversation. I didn't leave.

Later we had MIL watch the kids, and we went for a walk and stopped at a restauarant to share a dessert. More conversation, some positive, some painful...

This morning, as always, I made lunches and fed the boys breakfast (D at home with mommy today)...WW was having trouble getting going, said she wanted to lie in bed all day...she reminds me of my first week post D-Day...she hasn't ridden her bike in 3 days, today will likely be 4, adn she hasn't asked to or complained about it...I both fear and hope she is approaching rock bottom...perhaps, bufffalo, you and my S are right, that she may be suffering from depression.

I'm going to call this part 1 and let anyone interested read it while I work on part 2.