SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

L.O.

I am in a very similar situation to yours. My WW is/was also a CLTroll and in addition to numerous random "meetings" with partners of both sexes, she also had a 6 month PA with a man she met there. So don't feel like the Lone Ranger, brother.

I have reached an angry phase in my process and have not missed many chances to express my disgust over the last couple of days.

I was catching up on your posts this morning and told her that my doctor mentioned that over 50% of the adult population has some form of Herpes. I admittedly kept digging at her because I want her to know how badly her actions and emotional/psych issues have hurt me.

Ironically, her response was to trot out the size thing. Having just read all the responses to that aspect of your situation I was ready for it and told her:

"If you wanted to hurt me you should have picked on something I have some control over, FAT ASS!"

Just thought I would share that with you. You don't have any way to change that part of you, but her disgusting choices are totally voluntary.

[This message edited by Pocketdialed at 10:42 AM, April 16th (Saturday)]

She is now focused on healing herself through bible studies and she has mentors from the church who have experienced this on my side of things helping her. But, they are more about her getting right with God and less about helping me.

Christians, help me out here. Is it possible for her to get right with God without trying everything to make it right with LO? It is my understanding based on the best religious education one can get from the old Bible epic movies that she can't.

As far as the whole affair sex being better, that has very little to do with any physical attributes or techniques. The bodies physiological responses to fear, anxiety, and excitement are the same. The old disaster movies used recordings taken on rollercoasters for the crowds screams of panic. Part of what makes peoples first time so exciting is the anxiety of getting naked in front of someone. When someone is cheating, they have anxiety about what they are doing, fear of getting caught, fear of what could go wrong, the uncertianty of a new and unknown partner, and all of these physiological responses are interpreted through the filter of lust and excitement. No honest relationship can compete with that.

her response was to trot out the size thing

in response to you looking for comfort?!?!?! How despicable! I'm sorry guys...this is just plain downright cruel and disgusting...I can only imagine that your wives are just trying to go for the most hurtful thing they can think of to say. Please don't think all women are like this...WE ARE NOT! A decent woman would NEVER say such a thing!

If I was in denial I wouldn't be having such a hard time with this.

Actually you can be in some denial and still have a hard time. Look up the stages of grief. You very well may be in the denial stage. That's actually quite normal for some of us.

She met 8 different men for coffee, kissed 5 of them, and had an EA with one and a PA with two. Corresponded with dozens of others, no doubt. All over a 3 month period, and the sex occurred within 8 and 1.5 days of me catching this.

This is also very typical. What she actually confessed to and what actually happened and within what time frame are two totally different things. I will share with you how VERY RARE it is for a WS not to try to trickle truth and minimize. And that's people in regular infidelity. If you look at those who are trolling craigslist for hookups, that's usually a whole different level of brokenness and betrayal. You can't change what you don't acknowledge. It'll just be a vicious cycle the next time you happen to catch her. She really needs some serious help. You could benefit as well from IC.

Did she see that you were on SI? I hope she didn't so that this can remain your safe place without her reading every single word.

Also, I agree with aesir. And good for you for not sleeping with her for now. She really needs to hit bottom and get serious about herself, and her marriage. She won't do that if you choose to sweep everything under the rug.

[This message edited by alluringillusion at 8:28 PM, April 16th (Saturday)]

Christians, help me out here. Is it possible for her to get right with God without trying everything to make it right with LO? It is my understanding based on the best religious education one can get from the old Bible epic movies that she can't.

There's a pretty good theologian from centuries back who shared your view. His Name is Jesus Christ; here's what He said as recorded in Matthew 5:23-24;

"So if you are presenting a sacrifice[e] at the altar in the Temple and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you, leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God."

His wife desperately needs to get right with God. But she's not going to do that until she's gets right with the husband she betrayed.

[This message edited by CobreGuy at 9:17 PM, April 16th (Saturday)]

From PainPainGoAway: Please don't think all women are like this...WE ARE NOT! A decent woman would NEVER say such a thing!

Well said.

Hey LO----what this really should eventually come down to---is how you wanna spend the rest of your life

Yes kids lives are important---your cheating wife--not so important

It is you that is uppermost

Can you handle life knowing what you know---you are being screwed up by meds even now--do you intend to stay on them for who knows how long

Right now your wife triggers you---that isn't going away anytime soon---the visions, what you think of when alone---will be with you possibly forever

What is life in your home really like---what is your wife doing day after day, hour after hour, minute by minute---to make any of this any better

Is your wife getting at the CORE deep-down WHY she needed to see 8 men, leave you home to take care of the kids, and just plain be decietful, conniving, and manipulative

The card is her way of apoligizing---yes she wants to stay in the mge---she is willing to do maybe whatever it takes---she surely doesn't wanna face the big bad world, as a divorced single women with kids who cheated on her H---with 8 other men---that's quite a label, and believe me she isn't gonna find much in the way of a man who would wanna spend serious time with her---she knows her future, if divorced is very dim---so i am sure she will do whatever it takes

But is this really someone you will ever be able to trust again---Right now--I am thinking you don't much care what she does---but if you R---what will be your thoughts everytime she is out, on the computer, on a cellphone-----so comes the question---what kind of a future do you see for yourself---For this really does have to be about you.

In the card, she wrote that she wanted me to know that she loved me. She told me reasons why. She complimented me. She said we needed to re-start and that she wanted to. She said she chooses me, loves me, and that it's a hard place we are at now but she wants to get through it. She said this marriage is worth saving for us and for our girls, and that God can help us love his way and forgive his way. She said, "thank you, a million times and more for staying, for not giving up."

Beautiful words but without actions they are simply words nothing more.

It's interesting she uses the words 'choose you', does she do it because she needs you? or does she do it because she wants you? The former is based on fear while the latter is based on desire. Which is it?

Hi LO,

When I read your initial post I felt so much for you, and part of that was because the pain you express exhumes my own personal hell and makes it fresh for me. There is genuine empathy in my response.

I know that had the "me" of 4/17/11 posted with haste in response to the "me" of 1/19/06 I (at that time) would not have been ready to hear the message the older, wiser me was trying to counsel. I wasn't ready and I had not yet accepted and grieved what I had lost. I was still just trying to survive - I was a fighter - and I was going to win against this "thing" that had attacked me. I could rationalize anything in order to preserve the path out of hell that I had mapped. Even small signs of psychological/emotional health from WW were evidence that I was "making progress" As in a guerilla war, I was taking a lot of casualties but I thought the trend was (even if modestly so) moving in the right direction.

From your posts I gather that you are of above average intelligence and a "nice guy." You are not afraid to work hard and you are convinced that good will out. Me too. I chose the name "idealist" without thinking about it 5 years ago.

I respect the man who chose that name 5 years ago, but I am proud also of the changes I have made. That includes a strong dose of realism. The moniker "realist" sounds to cynical to me, so I am happy to stick with "idealist," but I have matured.

Each of us creates a persona that we dispay to the world in order to win the love and affection we need. That is one aspect of our personalities, but there is much more. Under stress the subterranean aspects of our "selves" may want to burst through - also known as "acting out," or showing our true colors. (The healthiest among us may have fully integrated personalities.)

Your wife's behavior is not the result of solar flares or anything you or the size of your gentials is responsible for - it is not because of an external event, but the manifestation of her inner life. It is about her and her alone.

I believe that before you can go anywhere with the new knowledge you have about your wife and your marriage, you must first gain some emotional distance in order to allow reality to come to the fore. Don't make any decisions or commitments right now.

You seem to be of two minds right now, one intellectual and one emotional. You accept what Bigger says intellectually but dismiss it emotionally. I believe Bigger has much to say that would profit you and I urge you to re-read his advice. I know it may seem to offer too harsh a set of choices at this point, but I believe the advice is on target.

I'll be happy to hang around in the event you have questions for me.

Much love and respect.

Hey everyone, I just wanted to let you all know I'm reading each and every word you guys are writing and I really really appreciate it. I intend to respond as well, and there has been much I have been thinking about.

I haven't been able to get my thoughts in order because the medication combined with the depression has been killing me and keeping me a zombie. My doc said I should be getting off the lexapro instead of the Inderal first, so I'm beginning the taper-off process now going to half, and I was a little better today. The doc wants me to go on Cymbalta instead, but I may just try to go without because of the way it made me feel.

I want to give some specific replies as soon as I can, and also know that I check this often throughout each day.

I can't tell you how supportive this forum has been to me. It's good to know I'm not alone, even though it really sucks for all of us to have to be here in the first place.

Dearlord - I tried contacting the states mental health dept but it seems like they won't really have anything for me. Usually if you own a house they can't do anything, even if you have a mortgage. I have also tried some other free options to just talk, but they just listen and don't know what to say. It's something to see the looks on their faces when you tell them what happened and even they're shocked.

painpaingoaway - I do choose her, but I want her to help me and care enough to work through all this. We had a conversation this morning that did not end well, and I need to know what to do...

I told her we needed to discuss this and work through it. She said nothing she says will be good enough for me, and she can never be sorry enough. Then she was a different person before and she didn't love me, and that she wanted to leave me, and thought if she did this I would leave her. I asked her why she didn't want to get caught, and she said a part of her did, and she knew I was smart and would find out eventually. Then it started to get to where she was blaming me for why she did it, and I asked her why she's blaming me for her actions when she has chosen to take responsibility, and she did admit that what she did was wrong and stupid and horrible. But...then she told me I haven't changed from before when she decided to go do it all in the first place. I asked her if she wanted me to leave, and she replied, "part of me wishes you would." Okay, I said. She's crying at this point, and tells me, "let's make the plans."

So she isn't really to the level of "sorry" she needs to be. She has been nicer to me lately, but not talking about the issues we need to be talking about. Then when we do, she gets upset with me for not being able to get over what she's done to me.

I really need some guidance here, because I need her to beg me to stay, not go back to wishing I would leave. This really sucks!!!

I think part of it may be she doesn't know what she's supposed to do, and another part of it is that she is hiding behind the bad advice we've been getting from the church counselors who know nothing about this, saying I just need to forgive and everything will be fine, etc. But for her to say she wishes I would leave, because we will never heal from this or whatever, is really messed up.

palerider - I would want to work it out if she would be more active in the healing process, but now I'm back to being confused.

faith5 - thanks for those words. I agree she needs to figure out what's broken within her, and we need to figure this out. I'm probably still in shock. It's difficult to go back and forth like this, thinking we can make it one moment and the next thinking we can't.

SoCalGuy - So sorry about your situation. I hope it gets better fast for you. Did she already marry the OG? That fast? Shocking. I'm so sorry, and hope you get through this because we definitely feel the same kind of pain.

jb3199 - you have hit the nail right on the head!!! I've sent your post along to our "mentoring couple" in the hopes that they will understand and convey this to her. I really think someone, besides me, needs to be firm with her and tell her she's not doing what she needs to be doing. If we had a qualified MC they would be doing this for sure. Thank you for saying all of that!

btw - I noticed you have had 4 D-Days; does this mean she is just not breaking it off? It sucks that they want us to work so hard, and then when we do they screw us over. Sorry you're going through all this.

shattered123 - makes me feel better about Cymbalta, thanks. I may go on that after the Lexapro when I'm off it, but hopefully I won't need it. Hope you and your WH are doing okay.

Pocketdialed - Is your WW still out there on CL??? She's still in the "fog" and saying hurtful things to you? Man, I am so sorry and I totally know what you're going through. I thought of another one for you when she trots out the size thing, since she met with other women, you could say, "what do you care if I had a vagina?" Sorry if that seems insensitive, it's not meant to be. I don't know how I would handle my wife meeting with other women. Meeting with other men is bad enough, and especially on CL!

aesir - your description of the rush that goes with cheating is really good. I'd like to think that's why she experienced what she did on her 2nd PA (squirting). She said she didn't really enjoy the first PA (except the oral, which she told me was better than mine) so she refused to see him again and went looking again. Maybe she was more at ease having already cheated on me, but still, the truth of what happened is still enormously damaging and painful.

As for your first point about how she should be trying everything to make it right for me first, I was thinking she needed a ton of work on herself for having done something so horrific. I know we're all supposedly capable of having an affair, but I honestly think I would not be able to go through with it if it came right down to it. Even if I could plan a liaison I can't imagine taking off my clothes or actually having sex, when there are so many opportunities to change your mind and not go through with it.

You probably had a good education from watching those old bible epics. Food for thought - you are on here because you've been hurt by this, which we all know deep down is wrong, whether we've read the bible, seen an epic, or not. I think we all know what's right or wrong, no matter what our culture says. (A headhunter doesn't want to be hunted, even if that's his culture.) Anyway, that's going into another topic...

alluringillusion - I am sure I am still in denial as a coping mechanism to a certain degree, but in the context of how I meant it, I knew what she had done and how incredibly horrible it was. I think I was being accused of ignoring the enormity of the situation, which I'm not...I feel it!!!

I'm trying to bring it all back out from under the rug, where it's tearing me apart, and that caused the breakdown for today. Regarding the confession, I believe she is telling the truth about the 8 meetings and everything else, but maybe sans some minor details I still want to hear about. When she said "6 months" I think it felt like 6 months for her, even though it was only 3, because she had no sense of time - it was all going into the "forget it" part of her conscience. Anyway, that part isn't as important - I believe I have the truth, and you are absolutely right - we need to deal with it. I badly want IC for both of us.

But maybe it's all over anyway...

CobreGuy - Genius! Thank you, thank you, thank you! I am using that as ammo...

jnj express - all great points - all need to be dealt with. If she would change and help me to heal, I would pray I have the strength to forgive and heal and be happy with her again. I think I care about what she does much more than she cares about what I do. That's not where we need to be. She is a trigger as well, every time I see her.

tmcm - at the time, I would guess that "choose you" was meant to imply that out of all the men she could have in the world, she would still want to be with me, as a way of making me feel better about myself and her being with me. She said, "I choose you, I love you, and it is a hard place we are at now, but we will get through..." But, like you said, "beautiful words without actions they are simply words and nothing more."

idealist - Are you still with your WW? Did you D? I'm so sorry your wife put you through all those years of suffering and not telling you anything. That's how my WW would have preferred we deal with this. Your experience shows how badly we need to really face this issue and plow through it head first!

I am conflicted for sure - but whether it be emotionally or intellectually, I am not even sure either of those are in consensus. I think I'm conflicted both intellectually and emotionally.

For instance, I can go to her right now and say "I'm sorry, let's not discuss this ever again" and all would be well...for her. She needs to come to me and say, "how can I help you though this?" And we need good MC and IC. Then there's a chance.

I remember Bigger's words well, and they are very good: "Untreated" infidelity and learning why she decided to do it so we can resolve that issue, otherwise it's a count-down to a repeat. "SHARING your wife" has been echoing in my head since he said it.

I need the advice in this now - do I call a lawyer - unemployed - or what? I want her to know I'm serious and I want her to beg me to stay, and then do the work she needs to do so we can try to get through this. Any ideas?

Thanks again, everyone.

Your wife is still out of her gourd, blaming you for her affairs. How is it your fault she decided she needed to try a 12 inch dick? How is it your fault you don't have one? She's full of total BS. The sentiments on that card lasted a whole 2 days. She's gotten addicted to the slut brain chemistry and she still wants it.

The bottom line is that she thinks you can't pull another woman who is as hot as she thinks she is. Well, slutdom lowers the value of the woman, even if she is hot, for anything other than a pump and dump. I know she's your kids mom, but she thinks she's going to have lots of action from "10" guys after you leave, and she wants that. I don't care how many times she rededicates her life to Jesus, her actions and the shit things she says to you reveal her plans. She'll get plenty of action off the young studs for a while, but no relationship. She's pushing 40? I've got a good idea where she'll be at 50 if she doesn't snap out of it and get with the program.

I hope you have a keylogger up and you're monitoring her ass every minute.

Oh, yeah, lost my train of thought there for a minute...you need to make those appearance changes fast. Start dressing up and going out and leaving her with the kids. Go to the library and then a late movie or go listen to a live band in some beer joint. It's not necessary or recommended to actually chase women. Don't tell her where: "I'm going out. Back in a while." Let her draw her own conclusions.

Just start looking really good. You don't need confidence right now, but you do need fake confidence, if you get my drift. Start being too cool for her and let her feel that you're becoming a cooler guy every day.

Not many relationships can come back from this kind of action. Your wife claims she expected divorce, but I bet getting caught never crossed her mind. That is until it happened. At that point, she did expect divorce. Make her start expecting it again. No threats, don't even mention it. Just start putting out that I'm getting ready to be on the prowl soon vibe. Being a Christian, you were probably never into that mode much anyway, right? She will shit.

Google "dallas divorce attorney free consultation". Then go find out what you've got. With this much documented adultery it may or may not have a big impact on CS and custody. Find out.

I can't help but think all that might be in the back of her mind, but she says she will never do any of that again. I think it's her guilt that is now driving her to say she wants me to leave, but she said I haven't changed, which means she hasn't changed.

My guess is if I leave her she may not do that again. I could be wrong...when I'm gone who knows.

Getting off these meds and I'm going to keep looking for work and I'm going to start going out like you said. I just googled dallas divorce attorney free consultation. I'll leave it up on my computer screen.

btw - I found a note in her iPhone from the same day she had her first PA back in June 2010 - it was a law firm that did divorces.

When we first started dating I was into that mode a little, but not too much, you're right. I kind of hated that part of the game, and was happy I found "the one." Guess I should have learned to enjoy it a little more and kept searching.

You know what will sound really pathetic is that I still love her. Even when she's not as sorry as she's supposed to be, I still look at her and want to be happy with her.

I just received the book, "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" and I might tell her that she can read it if she wants. Would be cool to have it right next to a pile of divorce papers and I tell her to take her pick, but she better read every word.

There are some patterns to this behavior, and I suspect they have ben there in non-affair related behavior for a long time:

She said nothing she says will be good enough for me, and she can never be sorry enough.

This is a child's way of saying, "It's not worth taking any action because it won't work anyway." Again, this is a child's way of observing and responding to the world.

Then it started to get to where she was blaming me for why she did it

A child's way of deflecting responsibility.

really need some guidance here, because I need her to beg me to stay

I agree that is what an adult WS would do (see also the wayward forum) and it is part of what is recommended in the books on infidelity. But I do not think your WW is in a place to be able to do it. I am guessing, but she may not be able to deal with the shame she would otherwise feel and therefore it is compartmentalized away from consciousness and externalized (e.g. from her perspective, she is a rational actor making the least bad choice given her difficult situation.)

You know what will sound really pathetic is that I still love her.

I don't find it pathetic at all. If you could stop loving someone, like, BANG. Then that would be scary to me. I tell myself this: I will always love my FWW whether we D or whatever. A part of my love is essential - I loved her not as a transaction (e.g. IF she does X or Y, then I will love her. A part of my love is also existential - if she abuses me/my love then I cannot stay with her.

I doubt very much that she knows why she did this stuff. I would guess that she has some abandonment issues (and thus clung to her marriage even while trashing it in secret.) Since I don't believe she has access to those parts of her personality that would give you the answers you seek, you are left with triangulating from other things she can or might be able to discuss.

If she were watching a movie and saw a character behave exactly as she has been behaving, what would she think of that character up on the screen?

Has she been / is she now an empathetic person?

Does she take responsibility for other things in her life (money, work, etc.) or does she seem to deflect "blame."

Did the guys she was meeting mean something to her emotionally (not necesarily "love" but along those lines) or were they just something like a "fix?"

LO, this is just a message board and I am not a professional, but I think there is a good chance your wife would need a lot of individual counseling before she could come together with you as an emotional equal, able to take responsibility for herself.

I think, in the meanwhile, you will have to heal yourself withoutthe aid and comfort of a remourseful/loving/concerned/etc spouse. I believe you will heal much faster looking to your internal strength and friends, faith, family than to wait for her to get better herself.

You don't have to make any big decisions from this position of confusion and pain. I recommend you gain some emotional distance from your own thoughts and fears and let some of the decisions come to you as you become ready.

You're right, some of these patterns have been around for a long time. She tends to throw in the towel easily, followed by "always" and "never" statements that end in hopelessness and defeat.

You're not the first person to make the observation that she behaves like a child. I believe that is exactly right.

Begging me to stay:

I agree that is what an adult WS would do (see also the wayward forum) and it is part of what is recommended in the books on infidelity. But I do not think your WW is in a place to be able to do it. I am guessing, but she may not be able to deal with the shame she would otherwise feel and therefore it is compartmentalized away from consciousness and externalized (e.g. from her perspective, she is a rational actor making the least bad choice given her difficult situation.)

I'm doing my best to force her hand in this, but she still refuses to do it! I removed my wedding ring last night and told some close friends of ours (another married couple) that I was going to divorce her. I didn't tell them what she did, but just that I was leaving. The wife called her and gave my wife the number to some marriage counseling friends she knows (through their church, so it might not be effective), and when I got back she was on the phone crying. She told me about the MC and asked me if I wanted to go. I'm surprised and confused about why she would want us to go to another MC when she wants me to leave so bad. So, that means she is either confused or she really doesn't want me to leave but she is just so used to responding like a child that she says harmful things. I don't know but it confuses me, too.

How then, can my WW get to a place to be able to behave like a repentant WW? I do think you're right that she can't deal with the shame, and she has compartmentalized, which is why she can't understand why I can't "just get over it."

I noticed she was carrying around the book I gave her last night, "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair." I flipped through it before I gave it to her, and noticed several things she said that will be addressed as being the WRONG things to say, like "why can't you just get over it?" and, "God has forgiven me, why can't you?" She said these things just yesterday. I am hoping that the book will get her to a place where she can begin to help me, and us.

If I'm willing to try to forgive her for what she's done, and work through all this, you know I love her. Her not working on the issue, the infidelity, feels abusive to me.

I doubt very much that she knows why she did this stuff. I would guess that she has some abandonment issues (and thus clung to her marriage even while trashing it in secret.) Since I don't believe she has access to those parts of her personality that would give you the answers you seek, you are left with triangulating from other things she can or might be able to discuss.

Peggy Vaughan said the same thing, that she may not even know why she did it herself. We have also explored the abandonment issues and there is something to that. It would be easier to look around with a professional guide, but I still feel that she should be able to discuss anything and everything we possibly can. It's that she's not even open to it that is the most frustrating.

If she were watching a movie and saw a character behave exactly as she has been behaving, what would she think of that character up on the screen?

We had this discussion just a few years ago, that a wife who cheats on their husband no longer has the sympathy of the audience, and so having the husband come to the rescue of a wife that has willingly cheated on him earlier has a reduced effect. Some in the audience, like me, would say, "go ahead and kill her, she cheated anyway." She agreed with me. Now, we have experienced this firsthand and it's not a movie, but my wife would probably still agree with what we felt before. Maybe because there's such a big difference between a movie and reality.

Has she been / is she now an empathetic person?

It depends. She has empathy for a death in the family, but if I'm sick there's not much at all. If I'm having a panic attack, she usually doesn't show up. She has a couple times, and she was comforting and apologetic, but I think it makes her feel bad so she avoids it if she can. Right now, about our current situation overall, me/us dealing with the infidelity, I would say the answer is "no."

Does she take responsibility for other things in her life (money, work, etc.) or does she seem to deflect "blame."

When we are working, she's very responsible. Money, she deflects blame. She spends too much, and it's my fault for not making enough, or, she accuses me of spending too much, as well. She has been working on that the past several months, though.

Did the guys she was meeting mean something to her emotionally (not necesarily "love" but along those lines) or were they just something like a "fix?"

She read an article about how having an affair could give you fulfillment, and she bought into the lie. So she went looking for one guy she could have sex with on the side without me knowing. She found one but didn't enjoy the experience so she kept looking and found the second guy, and more were sure to follow as she fell deeper into the cesspool. She claims they didn't mean anything to her, but how do you have sex with someone that doesn't mean anything to you? And when I read through her emails, she told them she didn't want it to "just" be about sex, she wanted it to be more, with at least a certain amount of emotion involved. I don't think that's what they wanted, but they would certainly say "anything" at that point. The one she had the EA with, I think there was definitely some emotion there. She even later admitted to missing him; I asked her what was wrong or if there was anything we could talk about, and she said, "I miss" the OM. That was a blow. I asked her if she meant to say she missed the fantasy and the conversation and who she thought he was, because the OM was married with kids and had cheated on his wife before!

You say you're not a professional, but you seem like one.

Regarding healing myself alone, it seems difficult to do that while living under the same roof. I'm not sure how long I can endure the coasting while it's buried alive, swept under the rug like this. But, it would be easier on me emotionally if I didn't call the divorce attorneys right now. You're right, I should just give it some time.

Thanks so much.

She read an article about how having an affair could give you fulfillment, and she bought into the lie.

This might be the most troubling revelation in here. Perhaps not in terms of what happened, but in how this will be addressed later.

How did she come across this article? Does she recall where she was looking? What drew her to the article in the first place? Why did she decide to act on something so important based on the "information" in this one article alone?

It will likely take a long time for her to confront all these questions.

I know how hard it is to focus on your own needs when the person who betrayed you is right there in residence. But I still recommend that you try to detach from expectations that she will or should be responding in some certain way. I think the best thing you can do for now is to take care of you (with respect to her and the marriage, the kids are different.) Reclaim your personal power and know you and your needs. Right now, in the moment, without reference to your wife or the marriage.

There is a story about two young fish who swim past an older fish. The older fish says, "how's the water, boys" and the young fish swim on a ways. Suddenly one young fish turns to the other and says, "What the hell is water?" We become so used to the landmarks and unwritten rules governing the ways we make meaning in life that we don't even notice that they're there. (Jacques Lacan called these things, The Big Other.) For example, you wrote:

She claims they didn't mean anything to her, but how do you have sex with someone that doesn't mean anything to you?

I believe there is a strong chance that they did not mean much. Now, from your perspective, that is crazy, I would assume. A married woman doesn't have sex with some guy she doesn't have feelings for, right? Well....She and her affair partners were probably using each other, IMO. He/they got sex and she got her "fix" (could be to feel desired and pursued, could be to feel sexy, could be (really) to feel dirty and slutty...)She will be tempted to identify "proximate" causes for her behavior (what you "didn't do" for her, etc) but the more important and tougher issues are the "root" causes (how she processes and makes meaning out of the events in her life).

You are approaching this from an "if-then" perspective, but I suspect she lives a "yeah-and" life.

Black and white thinking, lack of empathy, lack of moral compass and etc. There are many signs of narcissism here - please note that I am NOT saying she has NPD (which has been removed from the new DSM anyway.) I suggest knowing your boundaries and making them clear. Life with a narcissistic person can be hell, but there are things that make them attractive as well.

Last thought before I have to go. Many relationships begin with the urge for symbiotic fusion, born out of a desire to obtain the emotional nurturance that feels lacking in our lives / from childhood. It is normal for couples to go through a symbiotic phase and common for two people to stop hanging out with friends at first while this plays out. But if this becomes the primary dynamic in the relationship or goes on for too long it will feel confining to at least one of the partners. It sets up a parent child dynamic and undermines the male-female charge that fires a healthy relationship. Can you identify what it was beyond the obvious that made your wife "the one" when you first got together?

Look up the book No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover.

Best to you

ETA: The dissonance between the person she would dissaprove of (her in a movie) and her in life is important. Therapy would aim to re-integrate the various aspects of her personality so that she could own all of herself. It's a big subject.

[This message edited by idealist at 3:23 PM, April 20th (Wednesday)]

- aesir: It was something she mentioned later that it sparked something, even though she obviously was fantasizing about it before then. She was also reading stupid women's magazines like Cosmopolitan, where they have articles written by teenagers who say things like, "if the sex isn't as good as you want, then he must not love you anymore or find you attractive. Find someone new." Societal and cultural garbage that put her in a state of blissful ignorance where she could do these things that are damaging. She fell away from her core beliefs and values. At least she understands this part of it all.

- idealist: She did mention that she wanted to feel sexually desired, but we were having sex and I desired her sexually. I wonder if she did want to feel dirty and slutty now that you mention it.

What made her "the one" was that we enjoyed being together, we had fun, we loved the same things, and we loved each other. We became great friends. What you are saying is a little bit interesting because when we had our kids we moved to a different state, and our usual friends we'd spend time with were not around. I'm sure there's something to that, but for her to go off and do this...!? As for the parent/child or codependent idea, I want to reject that only because a healthy marriage has similar traits. However, she does do all the things my mother did growing up (most of the time) like cooking, cleaning and laundry, but I can't accept that as unhealthy either. Only a feminist would argue otherwise, and they're the ones who argue women should screw around and divorce their husbands all the time anyway.

I'm going to check out No More Mr. Nice Guy.

Interesting question for a therapist, too.

Thanks again.

Current status - worsened depression - having a hard time functioning. Extremely tired. If anyone has any tips on how to shake this...

She was also reading stupid women's magazines like Cosmopolitan, where they have articles written by teenagers who say things like, "if the sex isn't as good as you want, then he must not love you anymore or find you attractive. Find someone new.

Your WS and my XW have something in common: both read the same material. Thing is, literature like this is not based on reality. Or legitimate relationships for that matter

Those writers are full of shit and they know nothing of love or relationships. They'll all die alone.

Your sig is encouraging!