SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

StillGoing.. We cannot ignore that some good people make mistakes. I tried to point out earlier in this thread my own situation. My needs were not being met and I almost made a mistake. Sure, that would have been my own choice and my own mistake. But there is reason behind it. My wife was not loving me the way I needed and for some odd reason I cannot answer (I guess my answer is that this is human nature in general) I gravitated toward filling that need. It too follows that law of reciprocity. Had my wife been romantic to me, was meeting my needs, made the with effort, given me all those needs missing at that time, I agree with Dr. Laura in my case, I doubt I would have ever come so close to being evil myself. I think I know that feeling.

She didn't make mistakes, she made calculated decisions that are ethically and morally questionable and continues to justify and defend herself.

You aren't a child, and the "law" of reciprocity here is vague and ambiguous. Your wife is not responsible for your needs, you are. You aren't a child that requires attention and care, you're an adult. If your wife isn't treating you the way you want to be treated, and refuses to even meet you half way after an adult conversation, that's still not on her. Her own behavior is on her, not your choices. There are options other than being "very susceptible to the charm of some other woman making him feel what he needs ..."

That you're saying you never would have thought about cheating if your wife was being Nuclear Family Lady all along is blameshifting, just like I said before. I don't know what was in your head, but what was in mine was: "I am very sad. I see a lot of single women out there. I don't think Divorce will be far off after she moves out so maybe in a year or so things will be different."

Yes, it sucks the death pipe to get no physical affection. We chose how we responded to that, just like we chose how we responded to the discovery our wives were having affairs. The only thing that prevented me from ending it much earlier, or walking out yesterday, is my choice not to do so.

I haven't, and won't, read this book.

I happen to think, and fWH tells me, I was meeting all of his needs (at least the ones he expressed) before his A. I certainly didn't follow her prescription, but we both felt we had hit the spouse jackpot, and he says I made him feel loved and appreciated. I encouraged and supported him when he failed, and cheered him on when he succeeded. And, he did the same for me. So, what happened? I got postpartum depression. Yup, a medical condition that was totally outside of my control. For the first time in our marriage, I was unable to be an equal partner to him. Instead, I was struggling to keep thoughts of taking my own life at bay long enough to care for our son. When I finally figured out what was wrong with me and sought help, I was on my own. Not only did mister wonderful not manage to rise to the occasion and meet my additional needs (which I did express, by the way) to get me over the hump, he became frustrated that he wasn't getting enough attention from me. So he very quickly found someone equally pathetic who was happy to give him all the attention he wanted, to the exclusion of her husband and children.

I will not accept responsibility for "50% of the problems in our marriage" because marriage is not about each partner giving their 50% and it is not a tit-for-tat. Marriage is about each partner giving their all, so that the whole can be stronger than the parts, and so that when one partner can't be at their best the other is there to help keep the family strong. (Thank you grandpa for that wisdom!) That is what we both believed and practiced before the affair. And this is something we talked about, so it's not like I had an expectation that he didn't.

Sometimes affairs occur because one partner is too weak, needy and selfish to give more than what they feel is their fair share. In fWH's defense, he too became depressed, but was not self-aware enough to know what it was and was too proud to seek assistance, so instead he had an affair.

And now, I am working hard at meeting all those needs he continues to have, while wondering where the hell he was when I needed him. But again, this is marriage, and I'm not interested in "he did this so I will withhold this" so I work at R with him every day. That is how I show him love and affection, and Dr. Laura can shove it if she thinks that is not enough, or that fWH cheated because I failed as a wife. In cheating, he failed as a husband.

Sorry, tryn, I just can't see it your way.

ive had a few obvious opportunities to join the dark side and betray my family, and i can say with 100% accuracy that the behaviors and traits of my wife had nothing to do with my decision to not cheat.

my wife does not and has never had to earn my non-cheating, and i wont even attempt to earn hers.

Being a decent spouse and reciprocity is what i expect from my wife, but it has zero effect my monogamy.

I think my spouse would have continued/had his affair no matter whom he married and no matter what I did or didn't do. It just wasn't about me at all. He and his OW had been seeing each other for at least a dozen years when fWH and I got married -- so I have a very hard time thinking I had any influence there at all -- other than the pressure I exerted on him to end the A when I finally figured it out (7 years into my marriage )

So, actually, I would say I was meeting my husband's needs rather well, since the prospect of losing me and his family was most likely the most frightening thing he's ever had to face.

Some people are capable of remarkable selfishness, for a wide variety of reasons ranging anywhere from thoughtlessness and stupidity to attachment disorders arising from abuse all the way to outright sociopathy.

I still liked parts of the book though. I read it probably 3 years before Dday.

Just to add, if it is true (per Not Just Friends and other books on infidelity) that the overbenefitted partner is often the one who cheats, perhaps feeding the other paerson's sense of importance is dangerous, depending on the person.

I'm being a little tongue in cheek here. I felt lucky in my marriage and the result was a desire to do more for my fWH to show him I loved him. I just think if someone is going to be a taker, they will continue to take no matter how much is being given.

Sure, that would have been my own choice and my own mistake. But there is reason behind it. My wife was not loving me the way I needed and for some odd reason I cannot answer (I guess my answer is that this is human nature in general) I gravitated toward filling that need

I have avoided comment on this thread but this is pissing me off! It's almost triggery to read this drivel.

Your wife was a wayward, therefore, by “Dr.” L’s standards, YOU must’ve been doing something wrong in your marriage to cause her to cheat, right? You may have already addressed this, but I do not remember.

Also, see your quote above (sounds like a WS justification/blameshifting to me). If you HAD made the choice to cheat in your situation, that would’ve been YOUR choice, and the fault of no one else. I mean to say, why is a cheater’s first objective to “fill that need,” by cheating vs. expressing marital dissatisfaction to the spouse and actually, you know, putting in the effort to fix it? Communication, marriage counseling, individual counseling, marriage workshops, intense self-reflection, etc. would’ve helped the situation and put the task of “filling your needs,” back onto you, since now you’re the one taking an active role in repairing the marriage instead of cheating on your spouse. Your happiness belongs to you and no one else. AH, therein lies the answer- cheaters cheat because it's easier and less work to fill their needs elsewhere. The, "she's witholding," "she's neglecting me," "she's preoccupied with the kids,"she's not meeting my needs," are statements made to justify a wayward doing whatever he/she wishes to do.

In addition to that, life is HARD. I don’t recall ever being under the delusion that I am supposed to be happy 100% of the time. Marriage is supposed to be about supporting each other even when needs are not being met. What if (God forbid) one of you had some sort of debilitating injury, etc, whereby you could not physically have sex anymore? Is that an excuse to cheat? No!

And do not twist this into me stating that I think spouses shouldn’t treat each other with love and caring, and reciprocate when shown love and care. I think you should do things to make your spouse happy because you WANT to, not because it's expected. Additionally, I would not recommend you making another person solely responsible for your own happiness- some of your contentment needs to come from yourself.

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 11:34 AM, May 22nd (Tuesday)]

My needs were not being met and I almost made a mistake. Sure, that would have been my own choice and my own mistake. But there is reason behind it. My wife was not loving me the way I needed and for some odd reason I cannot answer (I guess my answer is that this is human nature in general) I gravitated toward filling that need. It too follows that law of reciprocity. Had my wife been romantic to me, was meeting my needs, made the with effort, given me all those needs missing at that time, I agree with Dr. Laura in my case, I doubt I would have ever come so close to being evil myself. I think I know that feeling.

Holy cow, you have your REASONS all messed up.

If you had broken your vows, the REASON would have been because you CHOSE to go outside of your marriage for comfort rather than do the hard work with your wife to fix your marriage OR leave your marriage.

Those are the choices. Work to fix it or leave. Any CHOICE to cheat is YOU choosing cheating over other options. It would NOT . . . NEVER, EVER, EVER be the spouses fault that you cheated because she didn't give you the care and tenderness you need.

Wow . . . it terrifies me that you are actively seeking to counsel people about infidelity as I read in your profile.

I joined a divorce support group to help heal from what I thought was "just" my wife deciding to divorce me. It was one of many ways I fought my way through a massively tough time in my life. I saw all the damaged, lonely, broken people in that group with me.

We still have group dinners and there is still much pain for many of them. I can't imagine how much worse it would be if the counselors were advising them it was their fault their spouse chose to cheat.

[This message edited by WarpSpeed at 2:03 PM, May 22nd (Tuesday)]

I started reading this thread yesterday, and didn't respond. It was Zen Monday and all, so I just didn't feel like getting pulled into it.

But today is Pull Your Head Out of Your Ass Tuesday, and this set me off:

My wife was not loving me the way I needed and for some odd reason I cannot answer (I guess my answer is that this is human nature in general) I gravitated toward filling that need. It too follows that law of reciprocity. Had my wife been romantic to me, was meeting my needs, made the with effort, given me all those needs missing at that time, I agree with Dr. Laura in my case, I doubt I would have ever come so close to being evil myself.

Ho. Lee. Fuck.

I cannot believe that you claim to be in R, have walked the path of a BS, and you actually believe that an A is filling a need that the BS didn't fill!!! If you cheated, it would be because of something within YOU, just as her choice to cheat was something within HER.

I have a bunch of other comments; mostly about your little tidbit about how if you wife is kind, loyal and caring, then you'll respond in kind and about how that's a crock of shit that there's this if/then, cause/effect relationship in your R. However many others have already addressed this better than I can, so I won't beat a dead horse (which you, tryn, say you don't want to do, but you keep coming back to do it). I also want to say something about your cute little remark that every woman should read this book, but I suspect that comment would get me kicked off the boards, so my PG-rated response is - please don't tell me how to "fix" my M. Good old-fashioned open, transparent communication with my fWH, and the help of an MC we both admire seems to be doing pretty well for us, thanks.

" Had my wife been romantic to me, was meeting my needs, made the with effort, given me all those needs missing at that time, I agree with Dr. Laura in my case,"

Wow. Just, wow. You are stating what I've read so much of how WS's justify their behaviour. An affair is not and should never be an option. If your needs aren't being met, you have the choice of trying to work the issues with your spouse or leave the marriage.

I am sure you are a decent person. And I agree with you that in any relationship both parties should show love, respect, care, etc. BUT, from all the justifications and defense you posted, it seems that you are trying to excuse your close-call and/or provide your W with a justification that YOU can accept?

Dude, I could use a few million dollars to make me happy and fulfil my needs. But I know I can't and shouldn't go rob a bank for it.

It is a personal choice one makes that is entirely up to the person making that choice. Just as I KNOW it's wrong to rob a bank. I wouldnt go do it, and then say my H made me do it because he couldn't fulfil my needs. Duh.

But today is Pull Your Head Out of Your Ass Tuesday, and this set me off:

Sorry for the t/j but I had to laugh at this!!! Thanks for the giggle.

You know, I have read the book, and it's a bunch of crap.

I would just like to say, I joke with my SO that I'm working on growing up to be a hippy. I like growing my own vegetables and cooking from scratch. I home school my kids, I go to church with him, I LOVE having a fresh dinner on the table when he gets home from work, that makes me happy. I enjoy sex and have a higher drive than he does, I wear skirts all the time, and I try to keep the house clean. I am a stay at home mom. So...I think I'm the dream woman, right? I mean, according to the stereotype.

And, this isn't a new thing with SO either, I tried really hard with my ex husband as well. And, he didn't like it. He'd make fun of me, for being so stupid, who the hell wears a dress to pull weeds in? He turned me down over and over for sex, telling me out right he hated it with me...then cheating on me with other women.And, so, I figured, I still must be doing something wrong, and I tried harder...whatever he said, I agreed. I told him how wonderful he was, the few times he did want sex, I let him throw me down and take it. I didn't complain when he took away all my access to our money, and left me with $40/week to feed a family of four on...and you know what happened then?

He got abusive. He'd scream at me and throw dishes at me because I dared buy 2 boxes of fruit snacks for the kids, and he didn't like fruit snacks, didn't I care about him? He tried to run me over, he strangled me until I blacked out...he was never abusive before this, so, was it my fault he was now? I mean if I am partially responsible for his affair, and the state of our marriage, what portion of the abuse is my fault too? Actually, probably all of it, I suppose. I mean, he could justify the cheating if I was mean and bitchy etc. But, if I was quiet and meek, if I cowered in the closet, and made sure his favorite meals were on the table every night when he got home...if I made sure my 2 yr old and my 6 month old never made a sound all day, because daddy works 3rd and needs his sleep...then how could he vilify me, how could he justify cheating on me. But hell, if he started abusing me, I'd get mad, I'd yell, I'd fight back...now I'm somebody who deserves the cheating, aren't I?

I'm not bitter or angry or unhappy anymore. I threw him away, and I moved on. I've met a man who loves me dearly, and when I do lose my temper, he's more likely to brush my hair until I calm down than he is to cheat. And, when he's lost his temper, I don't need to reread that damn book to figure out what I am doing wrong, and what he wants, because I can ask him, and he will tell me. The only thing he has ever really gotten frustrated with me about, was leaving my glass on the nightstand (apparently a pet peeve) so...which page of the book is that on?

Not only all this, but I think it is quite presumptuous of a woman who was the OW to tell all us BW what we did so wrong. Actually, isn't that the OW MO? How many people here heard from the AP "well, if you had just XYZ he wouldn't have had to come to me." that is complete and utter bullshit. There are other options. Like, you know, talking. I can't and won't claim to be perfect, but, I have asked for what I did so wrong...you know what it was? I wanted sex too much, and I expected him to take out the garbage. Again, what page is that on?

Well, add me to the list of men "not getting his needs met by his wife" club, except she had the affair, not me.

I had the job, I did the dishes, I did the laundry, I paid the bills, I did more than 50% of the cleaning of the house, I provided endless attention, love and affection. I kissed her and told her I loved her every morning, I laid with her for hours every night. I caressed her often and gave her lotioning, massages, and bought her most everything she ever wanted. She has more makeup, clothing and shoes than any woman I've ever seen yet never worked a day in our 8 years together.

For this, I got nagged about my weight and my exhaustion. If I didn't have energy to take her to a mall at 8pm after working all day, shopping, cooking dinner and then doing the dishes, I was a pathetic excuse of a man. Of course, sex was down to maybe once a month or once every 2 months, and it was missionary only and she started to nag after 5 minutes.

If there was ever a justification for someone cheating, I think it would be me in this case... but I didn't. The problem with our relationship was a coupling of her intense narcissism with my unconditional devotion and loyalty to us. It would make sense that the only thing that could heighten her source of narcissism would be to cheat, which she did willingly and knowingly. And it didn't just happen- she spent MONTHS trying to make it happen through efforts so extreme that it scared away even many dirt bags.

I know the reverse is true with so many betrayed wives here. Face the facts that doing too much IS a problem especially when it involves someone who is narcissistic. Being kind to someone like that without getting them to seek treatment is like dumping gasoline on a fire. You're just going to escalate the situation and they will need to heighten your misery to get their "fix"...

So no, you shouldn't "Proper Care and Feed" a husband unless they are returning the favor 1:1 if not more. If Dr. Laura's methods were used in the cheating affairs she references, the betrayed spouse would only be that much more hurt when they finally did cheat. Trust me, I know first hand...

If there was ever a justification for someone cheating, I think it would be me in this case... but I didn't. The problem with our relationship was a coupling of her intense narcissism with my unconditional devotion and loyalty to us. It would make sense that the only thing that could heighten her source of narcissism would be to cheat, which she did willingly and knowingly. And it didn't just happen- she spent MONTHS trying to make it happen through efforts so extreme that it scared away even many dirt bags.

I'm right there with you Mediumrare. I was the guy who cooked,cleaned,took care of the kids, gave her attention, was the best husband/father/lover. As a matter of fact the people that know about the A said I'm the husband they want thier husbands to be. My good friend and neighbor used to tell my FWW how spoiled she was. You know what that did? It made my FWW feel like she wasn't needed. She somehow equated being needed with being loved!! And so how did she deal with it? along comes the fucktard bread delivery guy at the market, he hits on her (in the bread isle) and away she went on a 4 year LTA.

If Dr Laura heard my story she would have blamed me. This book is written by a woman who generalizes to make money. Just like all the talkshow hosts. It's that simple. She was so horrific here in the Boston area that even the conservitive talk shows up here won't touch her show anymore.

This thread is making my brain hurt.

[This message edited by dadof4 at 12:55 PM, May 22nd (Tuesday)]

My brain hurts so I tried to find some levity for the good Dr. Laura.

http://www.devildance.com/letter_to_dr_laura.htm

I think we need to take a step back and think for ourselves. Don't let some crusty talkshow host who's JOB it is to make money for advertisers drive our thinking. We are not sheep and she doesn't make sense.

Tryn' we have spent a lot of time on the LTA forum. You are smarter than that.

If there was ever a justification for someone cheating, I think it would be me in this case... but I didn't. The problem with our relationship was a coupling of her intense narcissism with my unconditional devotion and loyalty to us. It would make sense that the only thing that could heighten her source of narcissism would be to cheat, which she did willingly and knowingly. And it didn't just happen- she spent MONTHS trying to make it happen through efforts so extreme that it scared away even many dirt bags.

Mediumrare. That's it isn't it? I've heard it here before, the person most emotionaly invested in the M is the one LESS likely to cheat. Perhaps in Dr Laura's intensly offensive way (it sold a lot of books) that is the message she is trying to get across.

This thread cracks me up.

I read this book a looong time ago- back during the first graduate degree days.

I dug it out and read my comments - not very many.

"Hmm if I wanted a Madonna/Whore then I would have to be Jesus/Caesar. Would that make me a penis dentata?

Go patriarchal apologists- you have your female voice.

Servile domestic does seem to be appealing... for those sporting dominant neanderthal genes.

How can there always be sexual availability without gallons of spare lube? Don't think dry sex is good sex...

Fuck me! Feed Me! Then and only then can I possibly keep my relationship commitment!"

I actively approve of you.

It does describes what men need and want.

tryn, Speak for yourself. I think LS's guts are made of base metal & paper, her head is up her ass so she can admire her cash, and her pronouncements are aimed only at increasing her wealth.

******************

Zen Monday - OhhKaayyy...are all Mondays for Zen, or was yesterday special?

trynhard

I haven't read all through this thread, but I have to ask you, did your wife cheat because you didn't know how to "properly care and feed her"

And if that is what you think, you are reading the wrong book.

eta - error

[This message edited by neverendinghurt at 4:00 PM, May 22nd (Tuesday)]

This is to everyone on the thread...

I think there are enough snarky comments to last a lifetime.

If you all (general term)could post without spiting and hissing...that would be really nice