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Tred, I wish I could hug that little boy too. As a mother I really don't think I would think twice before I killed a predator like that.

On the BJ topic, is it possible that you don't hate them, but you hate that you hate them?

From a woman's point of view, (and just from this one) I think we can enjoy it IF it gives pleasure. If it doesn't though, I can't really understand why a woman would miss doing it. There are many ways to give pleasure sexually. If it pleases my partner I'll do it (as long as neither of us gets hurt). If he prefers that I stand on my head and whistle Dixie, I can do that too.

In my H's case, if what he tells me is true, for the first 3 or 4 years of his A, the MOW just gave him bjs. They didn't have actual intercourse until around the 5th year.

I have often questioned why she would be satisfied with this ie giving and not receiving. (He was not reciprocating if you know what I mean). They would talk, kiss, fondle a bit and end with a bj.

What was she getting out of this? POWER

Often, before they closed up the office to go home, she would surprise him at the door and do this. Reason? He was leaving her to come home to me and if he was going to leave, she would make sure he was thinking of her. POWER and CONTROL

Hi Tred,

I am so sorry for the abuse and trauma you experienced as a child and are going through now. My son was molested at a very young age. He gave me graphic details of what happened and I really lost it for over a year. One of my biggest fears is that he will suffer negative consequences with intimacy/sex as he matures. He and I both discussed the abuse freely until he was around 7 yrs. old. Then, he just stopped bringing it up. After discovering my WH's affairs/on-line cheating etc., he finally told me, after 23 yrs. together, that he too had been abused as a boy. WH had been keeping this secret for over 30 yrs.

It is incomprehensible to me that you chose to share this with your WW and she stomped all over it. IMO, a spouse that loves you would try to make that act enjoyable for you, at your own pace. Not just go find someone else.

One thing I have learned is that cheaters will use anything to make themselves feel better and justify their actions

FB,

is it possible that you don't hate them, but you hate that you hate them?

That's worth thinking about.

I get your point about power, but this wasn't really part of their A dynamic. I think it was more that my WW really fell hard for this guy, and was willing to prove that she'd do anything for him to keep him calling her and pumping her ego. If anything, it was a power play in the other direction - he liked doing acts that made her submissive, and I'm sure that this stroked his ego more than anything else she did for him. Gave him something to brag to his friends about how he's got this chick on the side that will blow him anytime. When he was going overseas, he made a video - of all she would let him do, that's what he wanted to jack off to. Of course, there may be other videos I don't know about, and he had plenty of nude photos so he didn't need those either, but it was pretty easy to put a picture of the OM's psyche together. He was into swinging, bondage, domination. Humiliating shit that my WW took so that he'd keep pumping her ego. I think my wife used BJ's as currency to keep buying his affection, which he was never going to return. And she got plenty in return sexually from him - it was just the culminating act every time for them in their four or five part play. Seriously, every episode they had would have made a full length (60 minutes without the cheesy acting) porn film. Typical description was so cliched - she'd go down on him, he'd go down on her, they'd fuck, then she'd make him climax by sucking him off. He told her he didn't like cumming in a condom - poor guy had to be sucked off. Everything he did was to manipulate and control - she was just more than willing to let him and she got to prove what a daring awesome AP she was in response. Their contacts were getting more edgy as time wore on, if I didn't catch her when I did, I'm sure there are more boundaries she would have crossed to please him. She thought he was amazing, perfect, too good to be true - probably sounds familiar to most people on this site. She didn't want to ride off in the sunset with him, she just wanted to use her assets to please him.

I appreciate the well thought out advice, I really do. You ladies are awesome. I'm sure the men out there are still trying to get their heads around it, and as soon as the shock wears off (What? A dude hates BJ's ? Is this a joke?) they'll be along promptly.

You'd be surprised. I don't dig BJ's all that much -- for similar, but less extreme reasons. My parents busted the guy who molested me as a kid early on in the process.

(I say this, but when I casually mentioned to my wife last night the similarities in our feelings and, to a lesser extent, our experiences, she told me that was the first time in our marriage I'd ever been that explicit about it. I'm all like, *shrug*. It's not like I think about it very often. )

The consequence, of course, is that I don't dig BJ's. I don't *mind* them, but they're not on my list of Top 20 Things to Do in Bed. I completely understand where that comes from...and honestly, I have no desire to rectify it. I don't dig BJ's. I know why. I'm not going to make myself or train myself to like them just to reclaim something I don't particularly feel the loss of.

You've got a bigger problem in that your WW apparently really digs giving BJ's (though I'd be careful about that -- the shit people tell their OP's is just as often exactly that...shit.)

But let's say that it is true, and your wife is nuts about giving BJ's.

Listen to me: who cares?

If I really wanted to strangle a sex partner until they passed out, and that was my favorite way to get off because my last girlfriend let me do that all the time, would my wife be obligated to participate in that? Should I resent her because she has sexual boundaries?

I say no. I say that a healthy sex life is about negotiating pleasure within the boundaries of the two people involved. Some people do not dig some things that really turn on other people. Anal sex is the obvious example here. Many, many chicks do not dig anal. Their husbands learn to not even ask for it. Most decent guys don't sit around complaining that their wives won't let them fuck them up the ass, and they don't go out and get hookers who they can fuck up the ass to compensate. They accept that it's a boundary and let it go.

There's no fault in doing the same thing with BJ's. Events from our childhood form some of our values...*and* the sensitivity of some of our pleasure centers. Events from your childhood (and mine) de-selected us from the pool of men who dig BJ's. We can choose to mouth-fuck our way through that and try to reclaim it if that's something we decide we really value, or we can accept that BJ's just don't do it for us.

And that's completely okay. I don't need to embrace every person on the planet's kinks to have a healthy, fully rounded sex life. I don't need to judge myself as somehow weird or inferior because I don't like things other people like. I don't like Cleveland Steamers, either, and there are whol internet groups devoted to those. Nobody thinks I'm weird because I don't talk about the great shit I took on my wife's chest during sex last night.

It's okay. You're not weird. You like what you like and don't like what you don't. There is plenty of territory inside the circle of what you do like overlapped with the circle of what your wife like's to keep both of you more than satisfied well up into the age where you're going to break your hips if you keep doing some of them.

Being molested doesn't say shit about you. You know that. It just gives you the information that there are fucked up people in the world and kids are vulnerable to them. That experience changes you...but change isn't *damage* by definition. Every experience changes us, changes our tastes, changes our pleasure centers -- that's also why some guys like huge tits and others don't. It's why some guys are ass men and other guys are meh about it.

(Me? I've got a huge thing for toe cleavage. You know, the space between a woman's big toe and the next one when she's wearing nice shoes -- especially flats. It's a product of mid-80's fashion and spending too much time staring at the floor. You start to notice feet. Nice to cleavage in a pair of red flats will get me going like you would not believe. I've never met anyone else with this particular kink. I don't think of it as weird...it's just what I like.)

You're not alone, Tred.

OMG Tred.. I don't even know what to say. Your story breaks my heart. I am so sorry...(((Tred)))

It's like she took every story I ever related to her and rolled it all into one gigantic nightmare and locked me in a dark closet with it. Then after hours of hearing me scream and cry, opened the closet door and tells me she didn't realize it would hurt me. It takes some skill to pull every fucked up thing from my childhood into a 20 month affair, but my WW pulled it off.

{{{{{hugs}}}}}

I don't have the words to express my sorrow and anger over your abuse - and I expect your feelings are orders of magnitude greater than mine.

WRT your likes and dislikes, I'm with w_a_l.

I also think that meshing is likley to be a big part of your difficulty in healing. My W is a survivor of csa, and it colors everything in her life (and most things in our relationship). Meshing could be a big barrier between you and your W in ways that you don't know about, and if you can separate the rape from the As, R could be a real possibility now that the issues are in the open.

But is that what you want? What does your W want, and what is she willing to change?

IMO, you'd benefit from IRL face-to-face support. That typically means therapy to me, but since that's off the table for you, have you considered looking for a peer group of, say, csa survivors? If IRL support isn't for you, keep posting - real people operating in a virtual world may be 2nd best, but we're much better than nothing - and it's sometimes easier to be honest when anonymous anyway....

Breathe deeply. Feel your feelings. You can recover and thrive.

A hug, if you want one from a male, (((tred)))

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:04 PM, November 30th (Friday)]

Thanks WAL. I know I'm not alone in this, or special. Just trying how to process it (again). Like you, I haven't given much thought to it in 30 years or so. It was just something that happened to me, and I never realized the impact. Not really funny, but on our first date, my WW went down on me in my pickup almost 20 years ago - I didn't climax. She said it would be a goal of hers, looks like she finally achieved it but with a different man. There's no quit in her sometimes.

SIsoon, I'd like to think it's obvious I'm trying to salvage this situation. I'm pretty sure I could of walked away a year ago, just said fuck it, pitied myself for a few months, then hit the bars and meat markets (or mail order brides). Life didn't suck before M at all, I just happened to fall in love unexpectedly when I wasn't looking for it. After wife #1 cheated on me, I had sworn off relationships that involved hand towels and making the bed in the morning. I need to solve this shit or I'm just not going to be worth anything to my family, so digging into everything (and really digging) is what I have to do.

SI is a great assist, but I know I have to do the heavy lifting on my own. This site has been a marriage saver so far for us, so I'll continue to lean on it. There's an old Latin phrase that translates to "We learn by teaching". Just trying to give advice to others sometimes helps me learn about my own fuckedupness.

Tred, your story is heartbreaking. How you feel is not surprising and it's not unusual. IMO, you are handling things amazingly well.

I agree with WAL. People's experiences pepper their likes and dislikes and sometimes there is some really twisted shit behind all of it. That includes your wife attitude. Something the two of you should talk about.

First, don't believe the shit she said during her affair to get validation.

Anyway you look at it, for whatever the reason, if she wanted to act like a human blow up doll for someone -- anyone -- to tell her she's awesome, that's pretty fucked up. That's on her, not on you. She has reasons for that and enjoyment is not the overriding one.

I'd want to strive for intimacy, real intimacy, not some porn flick adventure that is disconnected, scripted and cliched. That's easy. BTDT. It quickly loses it's appeal when you realize it's degrading to your soul. It can mean dealing with a lot of fear and honesty to get to that place though.

Finding out I had just about every man's dream in my bed every night and didn't appreciate it enough to keep her faithful is a dagger straight to the groin.

Whoa, whoa, whoa -- that's sounds like you are blaming yourself for your wife's affair based on BJ's. It's a hell of a lot deeper than that and you know it. You are in a bad place right now, don't backslide. Go easy on yourself.

((tred))

Hugs to you. Tinking of you as you peel away the layers and disentangle this.

So angry at this men who did this to that boy and the other grownups who failed to protect you.

Individual counseling? I know you say no but with a specialist in csa survivors it could help a lot. Keep talking to us. Thinking of you.

First Tred, let me say that I'm sorry for what you were subjected to.

I think it's really hard to impress upon our spouses exactly how difficult this is. I was sexually abused by my grandfather for several years. When you've been sexually abused and a family member is involved in some way (as your mother was by not being more careful about her partners), I think it's harder to trust people. Like you, my husband knew my history. He knew I didn't trust people and he knew that he was the first person I ever completely opened up to. Then he betrayed me twice- the second time after I had pointed out how much more devastating it is to be betrayed by the only person you've ever completely trusted.

Your aversion to blow jobs is probably normal under the circumstances. Add mental images from the betrayal to that along with the weight of having finally given your trust to someone and getting slapped in the face with it and I'm thinking you're pretty far along under the circumstances. I know you're not in IC but it really can be beneficial. In the meantime, hang in there. The one good thing is finding a supporting website where almost every situation has at least a couple people dealing with the same thing...

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 2:04 PM, November 30th (Friday)]

Not really funny, but on our first date, my WW went down on me in my pickup almost 20 years ago

1. This looks like your W's pattern. May be something for her to examine.

2. Do you associate someone giving you BJs as someone who loves you?

US,

2. Do you associate someone giving you BJs as someone who loves you?

No more than any other sex act. I consider it intimate, more so than intercourse. I've never expected or asked a girl to go down on me on the first date. It's like anal sex in a way, to me it's one of those things you "move up to" based on your comfort level with your partner.

Tears, thanks.

the weight of having finally given your trust to someone and getting slapped in the face with it

That's a bitch isn't it? It's pretty fucking hard sharing some of the shit that happened to you, and you only give that information out to someone so they can protect from it and understand you. When they betray you in a way that mimics the damage you've already had inflicted, it's just damn cruel. My WW said she didn't think it would hurt me this bad. Well that's wonderful honey, but there was only one damn way to answer that question. Now are you happy? Doesn't it suck to "guess" how bad your spouse is going to hurt by your betrayal, and find out you were WAY off? There aren't any do overs in this shit, if you are going to fuck up someones life, you should at least have some damn clue what the outcome is going to be.

((Tred)) I'm so sorry.

This thread has actually made me think a lot about the role that BJ's have played in my relationships.

WAL's post was so helpful. Now I'VE got some things to think about.

OMG Tred, I am so so sorry.  I am just sort of in shock here.  Here is this awesome, thoughtful, funny, intelligent, compassionate guy, that I kinda feel like I 'know', that I have shared PM's with, that I have been uplifted by on so many posts,  suddenly sharing this awful, AWFUL, story, just breaking my heart.

Jesus Christ Tred, you are digging down deep into some painful painful stuff, and I just applaud you for being so brave to share this post.

Tred, not to sound all weird like, but I am so moved, that I wish I could just wrap you up in a blanket and hug you forever!

Tred, personally, I don't really even think this has anything to do with blow jobs.  I think this is all about abandonment and betrayal.

Your mother not protecting you.  Your wife betraying you, and:  

"that no matter what you do for them, it will always mean less to them than the approval of other men".

That's it Tred.  Right there.  You nailed it.  Second place.  You got put in second place.

Tred, let me tell you something, not all women are like this.  Seriously.  They are not.  There are women out there that are REAL people, that do NOT use their sexuality as currency.  Your Mom, your wife, well, what can I say, they obviously didn't feel like they had other options, I guess.  They let you down, they inadvertently, but literally, threw you to the wolves and I am so so sorry for that.

Tred, my guess is that you married a girl 'just like dear ole Mom'.   They say that in marriage, we unconsciously seek partners in which we can fix, repair, or complete those things that we never got from our parents.

How to fix all this?  I have no idea.  I really don't.  With out a good therapist, (which are few and far between) I don't really know.

All I can say is this.  You are strong.  You are introspective.  You will make the right decision for yourself.  I know you will.  Because if that little boy got up on that stand and testified against that fucking monster, then you can do ANYTHING!

you're not weird, Tred.

Whats "weird"is that your W managed to turn your history into her pity, as well as a weapon against you.

as far as everything else, and your concerns...im with WAL...no surprise there.

Damn PPGA, you made ME cry...then again, that's not exactly hard to do these days

You are a dear wonderful woman, and you've brought me many smiles in darkness this past year. I'd be pretty honored to have you wrap me in a blanket and give me a hug. It just sounds so, comforting? You are absolutely correct about the abandonment and "second place". That's an issue I've never really brought up on here, but I've discussed with my WW. I don't want to t/j my own post by going there just yet, but your assessment of one of my issues is pretty spot on. There's always another layer there. But I'm pretty sure I'm not fond of BJ's.

SLH - figures you'd team up on me with WAL. Brown noser.

ETA: Looking on the bright side, I'm glad the fucker never kissed me , because that would really suck...

[This message edited by Tred at 6:33 PM, November 30th (Friday)]

figures you'd team up on me with WAL. Brown noser.

eh, whatever.

your humor really is amazing. It reminds me to keep mine.

there are definitely other guys out there that have gone through similar situations. unfortunately.

Though yours IS far beyond anything most people ever expect to hear about.

I dont think you are here trying to get sympathy, in fact, i highly doubt you are even comfortable receiving sympathy. Thats an artifact of abuse.

I have had some nasty memories surface as well, and when a connection gets made, with real world examples...its a huge "holy shit" experience.

Hang in there man, give it thought, but dont let it rule your day.

[This message edited by stilllovingher at 6:38 PM, November 30th (Friday)]

(((Tred)))) I am so sorry sweetie. That is an awful thing to go thru, and I understand what it is like to keep quiet because you feel your family needs you to. You did what you thought at the time was best for your family.

The abuse you went through was horrendous. I am sorry you cannot do therapy, because a good therapist could be a lifesaver, but I am glad you can come here.

I agree with WAL, you don't have to like BJ's. It isn't required in a loving relationship. And I know you realize you are not alone, but wow, you are so not alone. The numbers for childhood sexual abuse are staggering. And when you have your boundaries violated at such a young age, it can kind of skew your idea of what an intimate relationship is supposed to be. You sound like you are doing well for what you've been through, but I don't think you've gotten to the bottom of the well, and I think you have a lot of emotion and feelings in there you haven't dealt with yet. And you are correct, at some point that stuff will spill over. It is like a glass. The glass gets mostly full with trauma, and then every little trauma that happens in our life starts spilling over the top. At some point, since we have never released all that trauma, we are in constant "spill" mode....which explains the easy tearing up.

Also, at some point, healing requires a healthy anger. That anger can be really scary. That is why I am sad you cannot find a good therapist, because you may need some help releasing it in a constructive way, but perhaps there are others on here who have released that particular kind of anger and they may be able to help you through that part.

((((more hugs))))

Keep posting and venting and working on your answers. Watch for health issues. Certain health problems can mean you are bottling up too much and you need to release some of the emotions.

Tred,

I just wanted to say that you are not alone. My H doesn't like BJ's either, and for the same sort of reasons as you (his perp was his father ).

I don't think that this is something that you have to like. If your WW loves you, she will accept this and understand it. I agree completely with WAL that this should not be YOUR problem. This is HER issue.

However, I do think you should work through some of this with a professional. This is the sort of heavy stuff that damages our ability to be intimate with others. PPGA is right in that we recreate scenarios as adults that we learn from our FOO. I can accept that as the reasoning that I married a Sex Addict, and the reason that he developed as one (although that is NOT an excuse for his acting out!).

I am sorry you are dealing with this. It takes a lot of courage to verbalize these things. It is kind of strange, because my H and I just had a conversation about this at the beginning of the week. No one protected you as a child, but you can choose to protect that child you were now, and to take care of yourself. And yes, that is stuff I have picked up in therapy. I am still working on it for myself.