SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hugs. This reality sucks, doesn't it? We understand and we're here for you every step of the way. If you make every possible correct choice and if you make a whole lot of wrong ones, we're here.

And we really do care.

Cal, I understand you're tired and worn out but at the very least ask her to read one of the books mentioned (Not Just Friends, After the Affair, etc). See if she does and you should read it too. If she doesn't, you have a lot of answers right there.

I probably am making wrong choices and will continue to. I've never been through this before. It does suck. Really sucks. It's pure hell. I can't believe this is my life. This sort of thing is supposed to happen to other people, not me. :-(

Hi Cal,

As long as you mean "what does it matter?" for the details only.

The real issue is that your wife may not be actually remorseful yet. Some WS will feel regret for getting caught but continue to "justify" what they've done.

This is why we are concerned about you "rugsweeping" and trying to move on.

Some of the crap she said to you was definitely "foggy." When she said you needed to fill her heart, for example. THAT is evil, fog-speak for I did "what I had to do."

If she doesn't find true remorse, she will hurt you again.

Maybe not today. Maybe not for years. But, unless she is willing to dig deeply into her true reasons - NOT convenient excuses - but the real broken parts of her that allowed her to think ANY of this was okay...

I hope you stay strong. I hope she is remorseful. Confessing the whole ugly truth is one way of starting the path to true remorse and healing.

That is why we keep hammering the point.

I hope these two weeks will give you and her both clarity of direction and that you are both willing to do the hard work that is ahead.

Please do not blindly believe she is 100% committed yet. Trust but verify.

HUGS!

She does feel remorse. That crap she said earlier about filling her love tank or it will happen again was just a couple of days after I made her cut off the affair. She's still coming to terms with how she could do this, how much hurt it caused, why the guilt was so great she kept almost telling on herself which would give me clues that she was doing something, how hard having an affair is/was, etc. Shes said more than once lately, "man, I'm never doing this again. And I don't ever wanna go through anything like this again." She is still de-fogging and every day, her head comes more and more out of the fog. It's not rig-sweeping, it's trying to claim back some of my sanity which for me at this point, is good.

Sorry you are going through this. Everyone who has gone through this never it thought it would happen to them. The reason it hurts so bad is because you still love her. I was hit by complete shock 2 mo ago when I found my drunk wife making out with a random guy. If you guys decide to R (which I think you will), I would recommend a new marriage counsellor. Also start reading the book 'Getting Past the Affair'. You both need to get to the bottom of why it happened which will be complicated and multifactorial. Even if you decide to leave, this book is helpful.

I disagree with most here about whether or not she had vginal sex. I think you are hung up on this as well to make you both feel better that she actually showed some restraint. I think cheating is cheating. She lied to you and lost your trust. She did something very intimate outside your marriage that she doesn't give to you (BJJ with a swallow). I think the reason to know if more happened is so that she can be trusted and he provides full disclosure. Ask yourself if he had sex with him will it chage your decision? Is that a deal breaker? You have to decide if you want to spend the rest of your life with her or not. This book will help.

I will say that hings get better every day but it takes time and if not easy.

If she did have sex, it will suck more than I think it does not, no doubt. What am I gonna do? Divorce her and go marry somone else? I mean, I'm 41 years old. Most women my age that I could marry, are probably divorced and/or numeous sex partners. I'm not going to go out and look for some 20 year old girl that's young enough to be my daughter just so I can be this persons only man to ever have her. And , this is the big one, I can never have with anyone else what I have with my wife. I'll never have with my wife what I had before either whether she had vaginal sex or not. I'm hoping for something better. Many couples make it through worse stuff than this and have great marriages. We can too. But for my own mental health at this point, I am choosing to believe she didn't have sex. She said this was never about sex in the first place. And, if they did have sex, so what? Does that mean I don't love her anymore? No. I still will love her. So, I belive they didn't but if they did, I don't want to know about it. I can't keep obsessing about it. I have to move forward at some point. We've only been to the marriage counselor once. You're right, cheating is cheating, lying is lying, trust has been broken and its up to her to earn that back.

I was a lot like you 3-4 years ago. Said the same things about my WW. Felt the same.

The thing is, in my experience, if you don't get all of this out and get all of your questions answered, then you're not really gonna move one. What you're choosing is obviously better than what you have now. But not knowing will always seem to nag at you, and there will always be a intimacy barrier between you. If I could go back 3 years I would get all of my questions answered truthfully before deciding to reconcile or not.

calkid,

The thing is, you can't R without the truth. Your right, it may not matter that she fucked the guy, but it DOES matter if she is now willing to be truthful in EVERYTHING. Without her being truthful about everything you can co-habitat but you will never have the real marriage that you want and deserve. Truth is the foundation of forgiveness and for you two being able to work through this. Do you really want to reconcile with her if she is still lying to you? If so, I would gently suggest that you examine your thought process and understand what is driving your desire to R at all costs.

I completely respect where you are today. I spent a long time in the same place.

The trick --- and it is VERY difficult, when things seem better-- is striking the right balance. You need truth, but perhaps not all the details.

Secrets and lies-- and your wife *is* still lying, either to ptotect you or herself-- create a barrier to intimacy. Not sex, but emotional intimacy. Without this, you're roommates or, if you're "lucky," friends with benefits.

Is this how you want to live, knowing that the lack of emotional intimacy increases the odds of repeat infidelity?

You don't have to decide today, or tomorrow, or anytime soon.

You just owe it to yourself to be honest with yourself.

[This message edited by solus sto at 12:51 AM, May 13th (Monday)]

I dtopped her off at the airport this morning. I thought I'd be really sad to see her go and I was but as soon as I walked away, I started to feel better. I got in the car and the further the way from the airport I got, the more relieved I felt. I have felt sad and lonely today but then something just happened. I had to move my truck SUV from the street into the garage and and I looked back at the back (middle) seat. I stared at it for a while and picture Mr. D laying back with this head and shoulders against the passenger side rear door. I pictured my wife laying acrross him sucking his dick. Him talking dirty to her and him cumming in her mouth. And then, it hit me. FUCKING BITCH! That's all I'm saying over and over again. FUCKING BITCH! I'm going to work on myself right now. I'm fucking angry I could just slap her around. She'll be lucky if I let that bitch back in the house!

..((((((calkid))))))

..i definitely know your pain.

..the fWW and bf did the same for 18 years..

horrible fucking mind movies.

no pain quite like it!!!!!

smy

CalKid

Something got my woman’s intuition on alert, it was when you had just found out and she said this:

"Why are you still with me? I'm no good to anyone. You should just throw me away. I wouldn't blame you one bit if you packed my bags and threw me out on the street."

I think her and Mr. D had a lot more going on than you know of. He’s getting a divorce and will be free? I think they may have talked/planned on being together in the future, another page from the cheaters hand-book. That’s why she said that. She wanted you to throw her out, then you would be the BAD because of that and she could sneak around easier with Mr. Little Dick.

You made me laugh, you are 41, who would you find? That is young.

I was 52 and married for 26 yrs. and traded-in for a much younger model. But I would rather BE ALONE THAN BE WITH A CHEATER!!

Use your anger right now, let it work for you. No drinking, think of your future, you are stronger than you know. It’s all about you now.

Nah, I just had a good chat with one of her best friends who came to our house to drop off our daughter. Wow, was she honest about what my wife told her. So I've got the best friend, sis-in- law, Mr. D, and my wife all singing the same tune, No sex. She gave head, ass rubbing, kissing, sexting, and titty sucking but no sex.

She loves me, that's what she's telling everyone anyway and she wants to fix our marriage. What I don't get is, why she feels she needs to talk with or send a letter to Mr.D ending it her way. To apologize to him for letting it get so out of hand and wish him a good life. To "close the chapter" on the affair. We had this discussion tonight. I told her, you don't get to have the closure you're looking for with this improper adulteress relationship. Like its her right or something? C'mon, that's total b.s. This was not some boyfriend she had before she met me and got to end the relationship on her own terms! This was adultery and yes, this relationship was stolen from her when I found out about it. You don't get to say goodbye and good night. We couldn't agree so we are setting it aside for our next marriage counseling session. Sorry about the outburst earlier. That's anger talking, not the real me. I love her a lot.

I thought I'd be really sad to see her go and I was but as soon as I walked away, I started to feel better. I got in the car and the further the way from the airport I got, the more relieved I felt.

Time apart will help you understand the anger you're feeling.

Anger is ok, and it is ok to express it here. You won't heal by keeping it bottled up.

Not saying it is the case here, but sometimes people get so comfortable or at least familiar with a situation that they cannot imagine life any other way. When she was gone and you drove off was likely the first time you were able to divorce yourself to any degree from the relationship as it now has become. The lesson I would draw? If you ultimately elect to end the relationship, you will be okay. If you decide to fight to save it, you will be in for a lot of anxiety and stress, but you will eventually be okay too. This is an emotional roller coaster, and your emotions will surely sway back and forth for some time. Simply said, there is no way out of the pain, but straight through it. Only you know how much you can and will take. We all are impatient to know where the road will lead, but only time will tell us that. If she is truly sorry, and truly wants to change then you have hope for a new future with her. From what I have read here it sounds like you have an inkling of her trying to change, but also are aware the fog is still present. Right now she still cannnot accept the need for no contact without having closure. Ultimately that attitude will change, otherwise there can be no healing. My wife worked with her partner in crime and at the time hard as it was I thought it made sense that she would have to remain civil and in contact with him. Years out I see that had to end (and it did quickly) or there would have been no movement towards her recovering and us healing. This ordeal is not a sprint but rather a distance run, but you will help yourself in that marathon by not just being understanding and forgiving of her past misdeeds, but also adament that you will be unyeilding in expecting her to show you respect and improvement, and by not allowing her to hide in the secrets for that is where these illicit relationships breed and grow. She will make it seem you are being too hard on her until she escapes the fog completely, and you will feel badly for being perhaps too harsh, however ultimately holding her accountable is what is best for both of you if there is to be a future for the two of you.

So, last night, I checked our computers browsing history. I saw that someone had gone to Mr.D's Facebook page and was looking at pics. Now, Mr.D has blocked my wife and I so through our profiles, we can't even see bis page. So, what did my wife do? She created a new fb account using my 6 year old son's name. This account has no friends, no messages, nothing. It appears, all she was doing was looking at pics. Right before her trip down south though? So, I hacked into the account and changed the password. My 6 year old is too young to fb anyway. Then I blocked Mr.D through that account. What should I do? Should I ask her wtf she's doing and why she's done this or what?

Geeze . . .sorry to hear that, seems to never end for you. Go ahead and ask her about it, see what she says. She may get angry that you were checking out things. But she can always make new accounts. You can’t police her forever, there are so many ways for her to have contact with him. I think he is done with her but she can’t completely let go yet, may take some time.

I'm sorry calkid - the new fb account just proves she is still not being honest with you. She is still in the fog. She is taking advantage of you being nice. Every time you think you have the whole truth and she is being honest, you find out she is lying again.

Keep firm on the NC and she may lose her interest in OM and come out of the fog.

Good luck calkid, you are doing well, this is awful.

[This message edited by traildad at 7:28 AM, May 12th (Sunday)]

Shes said more than once lately, "man, I'm never doing this again. And I don't ever wanna go through anything like this again."

This is not remorse! This is about her. (She might as well have said, "Man, I'm not doing this again. It's not nearly as much fun as I thought it would be.")

Remorse looks and sounds completely different.

One thing I find very, very unsettling and worrisome about your situation: that your wife is telling all of her friends the same tale, then having them report to you, "Yep! She told me the exact same thing!"---and your subsequent conclusion that what you're being told must therefore be true.

This is NOT normal behavior. It's not typical, and it's worrisome because it crosses ALL kinds of boundaries. It is disrespectful of you, to report to others for their participation. It turns friends who MIGHT have been trustworthy friends of the marriage into people she will need to excise from her life, should you reconcile, because they were willing to conspire with her to minimize her affair. And ----quite frankly--it's just plain creepy.

These are not actions of a remorseful woman. They are actions of a desperate woman. And desperate does NOT translate into, "great candidate for R." Why? Because she's not desperate for you to know the whole truth. She's not desperate to help you feel better. She's not desperate to heal the damage she's caused and build a stronger relationship.

She's desperate to save her ass.

How about this: just STOP. Just stop discussing the affair, its consequences, your future together.

And instead, detach a bit.

Read the 180.

Then carry it out.

It's hard, but do the best you can. If you break it, start again.

If you can only apply some of the aspects, do that.

But put it into action, as best you can.

Really, you have nothing to lose. At this point, you do not have a marriage. You have a still-lying wife who's still engaged (the Facebook thing? that's breaking NC) in her affair, if only emotionally. Emotional will lead to contact, if "Mr. D" permits. Given that he's a scumbag, this is likely. But if not, there are lots of Mr. Ds in this world.

If she's still got Mr. D in her head and heart---creating a FB page for a kindergartner to access him!---then she's NOT remorseful. She's NOT focused on repairing the damage she's done. She's NOT feeling one iota of empathy for you.

Yet.

It is early days, and she may well reach remorse and empathy. But she's NOWHERE NEAR either at this point.

Let the little bit of detachment the 180 affords give you some clarity. You are currently crazed. Your view is very distorted. You are seeing what you want to see, not what is there.

It's time to look at things through new eyes.

In the meantime, let your wife feel---just a little---what life without your constant engagement (because, bro, your current frenzied behavior is giving her what is referred to as secondary gain; though it's not the attention she would have liked, ideally, it's attention----and she's getting off on it) might bring. Let HER figure out how to be a healthy woman satisfied with her life. Let her learn that this deep satisfaction with life has nothing to do with the other people in her life, but rather with HERSELF.

Focus it on YOU. Read the 180. Put it into action.

Do not engage in discussions of the future. If she speaks to you, respond pleasantly but briefly. Occupy yourself with other things, even if you don't feel like it. Be less available, less needy, less desperate.

What you might find is that the marriage you have is NOT one you want.

What you might find is that the marriage you have CAN be repaired.

What you might find is that the marriage you have CANNOT be repaired----and that, shockingly, you don't want it to be.

It's really amazing, what a little detachment and observation can give you. Right now, you're ....spinning your wheels. I know. I did it for months longer than I should have.

As long as your wife cherishes her secrets and lies and PROTECTING HERSELF more than she values you and your marriage, you don't have a marriage.

You will not be able to reconcile with a woman who lacks both remorse and empathy. Ever.

Will remorse and empathy surface over time? It's as likely they will as not.

So step back. Observe. STOP TALKING TO THE CREEPY FRIENDS WHO SHE'S USING TO CONFIRM HER TALE, and watch her actions. What is she doing NOW AND EVERY DAY to demonstrate her investment in the marriage? What is she doing NOW AND EVERY DAY to rebuild trust? What is she doing NOW AND EVERY DAY to be transparent? What is she doing NOW AND EVERY DAY to show you that she is willing to do the work to become a woman you would be proud to remain married to?

We both know you don't have answers to those questions yet. You haven't looked for them because you've been shocked, then panicky---just plain frantic--to convince yourself that it's not "as bad" as you think.

Accept that it is. Accept that there's likely much, much more---more, that she will hopefully reveal of her own volition.

If she does not, that gives you very important information about the direction your life will take. You will spend more years with a woman who prefers to allow secrets and lies to form an impenetrable barrier to the emotional intimacy required for a satisfying marriage (and is therefore far more vulnerable to continued or repeat infidelities). Or you will reach, over time (and this may be months or even years), the conclusion that this is NOT the marriage you want, the wife you want.

You are concerned about being a quitter. But it takes TWO to reconcile a marriage. She already quit. Any successful reconciliation starts with a commitment to NC, complete honesty, and transparency. Though it may take time, remorse and empathy will follow--unless your wife is not capable of forming these. (You don't give any indication this is the case.)

I hope you see them soon.

I hope you develop the presence of mind to really honestly assess the situation as it is, rather than how you wish it were.

And I hope you get yourself into IC so that you can gain the strength you need, the confidence in yourself, and the deep satisfaction YOU deserve---all of which comes from within.

[This message edited by solus sto at 8:45 AM, May 12th (Sunday)]