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Sweetie she's gonna blame you no matter WHAT you do. No matter how you twist yourself around. Until she starts taking responsibility --actions not words--you need to only act in your and your children's best interest.

Calkid,

All that I have done the past 15 months, I have done for the benefit of my kids. I have avoided arguments and conflict for their benefit. But you know what? My xWW thinks that this is all about her. She even brags how good of a relationship we have post-D because of how "we talk". The key is I don't say much of anything. I don't talk of my feelings or plans at all to her anymore. Every time that I have, it has backfired. EVERY.TIME.

I really don't think she is capable of "seeing" how hurt I am. Neither is your WW capable. You need to come to a place where you see that is no longer that person you knew for 23 years. Its hard. WE KNOW. Be patient with yourself.

As far as your emotions, we both should be angry at them. I should be yelling at her. That's what my emotions say to do. But I go for a walk and realize that it wouldn't do any good. If we do that, they win.

The only good that will ever come is when she realizes the pain she has caused. You and I both need to understand that they may never "see" that.

Also, read the NC again and again. I have to or else my old habits creep back in. It's a process. It's not that you go in for surgery and come out and you're cured. No, you have to keep working, keep retooling, keep refocusing efforts. It's daily. It's mentally exhausting.

Also, be friendly, but don't be her friend. My wife thinks we're friends because I'm not agressive or confrontational or emotional with her. Right now that's all I can handle. I am trying to practice NC/180, but it is difficult. No one on here that is suggesting it is REALLY frustrated with you about your seemingly inability to go NC/180. You've spent a long time together and it is incredibly hard.

That being said...

Go NC/180

Just do it!

The truth is I'm really not even sure if I even give a flying fuck anymore for her. The way she has ripped my heart of out my chest without any apparent remorse, AND by blaming me, says all I need to know.

I hope you realize that your WW is ripping your heart out of your chest as we speak. It's up to you to protect yourself.

By the way, I'm technically alive, but living? That's another story. I probably should be medicated too, but

I did not find SI until recently. You should count yourself lucky--very lucky.

You have an opportunity with all the advice...

Just sayin'....

[This message edited by la433 at 6:12 AM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

Well, I'm just not sure how NC will bring us back together. Some of the things in the 180 make sense but NC seems like it will drive us further apart. Seems like she'll think I don't care and make her give up.

So, basically how things ended yesterday, is she blames me for our son knowing. I tried to tell her over and over again, I didn't know that the boy was listening at the door. She didn't have to look him in the face not knowing exactly what he heard. He told me some of what he heard and there was enough there for any intellegent (which our son is very) young man to put together that his mom cheated. Does anyone think I liked tellling him yes his mom cheated on me? Why would anyone that's trying to R with his wife want his son to know that? I told her that this is one of the consequces of her selfish actions and that had she considered this before she did them, this would not have happened. The sitter told him to call his mom when she picked him up from school and so he called her. I guess they had a chat about it. She said she was sorry and that she was being stupid and stuff. He told her he forgives her and that he knows she's human and made a mistake and won't judge her. Then I talked to him that evening. She's making a bigger deal outta this than he is. He knows how private a family matter this is and is not going to say anything to the other kids or his friends. It doesn't seem to really even bother him because we've told him that mom is sorry and we still love each other and are staying together. I mean, I know its a big deal but my wife is saying she's devastaed that he knows, absoutley devasted and I know, she blames me for it. I can't get through to her that it was an accident that he found out. She probably won't even talk to me for a good few days. What a mess. This whole thing totally sucks. :-(

I can't get through to her that it was an accident that he found out.

Stop trying, it is a logical consequence of her actions.

Ultimately this can be an important lesson for your DS. He will see that a good man fights for his M and to do the right thing for his family, even in the face of betrayl and adversity. You do not just give up and play the victim card, but you try to live your vows and what is best for your family and you.

One of the early signs FWW was starting to own her shit was when she stopped blasting me in anger when I told someone or otherwise may have indicated she had an A. Instead she began to respond that she was embarrassed to have people know, but that she understood I would do what I had to do to come to grips.

I have used the 180, so have many others on SI. I know of no instance where it drove a WS away. Sure, it may have been used as an excuse by the WS, but in general it removes the drama for the BS and often the WS begins to feel unsure of things as the BS withdraws instead of chasing. Your WW withdrew from you to the point of sexing up an OM and did not drive you away. what does it say about her if you withdrawing to calm and heal your life some drives her away?

... and I know, she blames me for it.

This is the key. There is no working with her, MC success, or reasoning with her so long as she blames you. You will know it is time to drop the 180 when she stops blaming you and owns her balme. BTW, this took my FWW over 6 months.

As for all the advice, no one should be frustrated or upset with you. We all give our unique perspective with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight in our own lives. Few (none?) of us did text book perfect post dday. You have to do what works and fits for you. We just want to "give you permission" to take care of yourself and kids while your WW decides which path she is going to take.

--Ats

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:58 AM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

((((Cali)))))

Well I find it interesting her reaction to knowing her son knows about her actions, and her very first reaction is OMG, I didn't want him to know, This is all about me, blah blah blah.

When in reality someone who was defogged, and truly remorseful or even a decent Mom's first reaction would be OH NO. How is he, is he upset, where is he I need to talk to him. This is not a good thing, and WE need to work together to help and any of the other kids understand that this was My doing, but I am trying to fix myself.

NOT THIS It's your fault, he knows, I'm devastated he knows. NOT I'm devastated by the pain Ihave caused everyone.

When you are in the thick of things it is difficult to understand the difference, I know. She seems thick in the fog, and I would bet my hat that she has a secret cell phone and is still in contact with him. She's stuggling because she knows she has not come clean, and IS NOT doing the hard work of R.

I also want to give you my take on the 180. It is designed to help you. The purpose is not to make her run to you, or run away from you. It is to help you gain perspective on what you are going through, and allow you to decide what you are willing to tolerate.

One person cannot make another person do anything they don't want to do. Even our spouses. The best that you can do is state what your expectations are, and consequences if they are not met, or attempted to be met. Once you can do this, you can draw your proverbial line in the sand, and not tolerate whatever BS she is spewing. You aren't losing her or making her go chasing the OM. You are simply asking for the things you deserve to have a good solid marriage.

((((and strength))))

Do you have a dog, calikid? I ask because much like we train dogs to respect us, we must teach those we love to respect us.

By giving her attention right now, you are reinforcing that her behavior is okay. Think about training a dog. If the dog is doing something wrong, i.e. begging? You calmly but firmly correct it, and then you IGNORE IT because you are not reinforcing its bad behavior by giving it attention.

All humans (much like all animals) yearn for attention. It's one of our most basic needs. You are meeting her need for attention even in the face of her stomping all over you.

Furthermore, going NC will not "make her give up." Absence makes the heart grow fonder, remember? Step out of her life for a time. Let her see and feel the absence of EVERYTHING you do for her, all the love you give her. If she still pursues attention and love elsewhere, let her go; she would have gone anyway. If she calls you and shows that she finally knows what she was throwing away, AND you're still interested in continuing this relationship, GREAT. Pass "Go" and collect your $200.

YOU have nothing to lose by going NC. If she walks -- it's because she was always going to. But know that she will finally be faced with the reality of what her life will be like if she loses you, and that is likely the only thing that will bring her to a place of remorse -- IF she is even capable of feeling it.

From page 6:

.

YOU;

.About 1/2 hour I got off the phone with Mr. D, she said she sent the non-contact letter in a text. I have told her to save the texts. She said she texted him and asked if he could talk to which he responded, "Nope", She asked why and he responded, "I'm not allowed to talk to you at all anymore." She then texted, "Calkid knows!" He said, "Yep" She said, "It's over, goodbye forever."

.

Me:

Textbook breakup. She refused to send a no contact text/letter ... but after you call him within a half-hour she suddenly sends him a text ending it? PUHHHLEEEZE.. time to start looking for a secret phone, new hidden e-mails, fake facebook accounts - the affair is underground.

.Sunday May 12

So, last night, I checked our computers browsing history. I saw that someone had gone to Mr.D's Facebook page and was looking at pics. Now, Mr.D has blocked my wife and I so through our profiles, we can't even see bis page. So, what did my wife do? She created a new fb account using my 6 year old son's name. This account has no friends, no messages, nothing. It appears, all she was doing was looking at pics. Right before her trip down south though?

.

Annnd... sadly did you find a fake FB? Yes you did.

I’d bet the bank she’ll find a way to make contact, possibly with a pay-as-you-go phone. It’s virtually untraceable. Another reason Mrs D needs to be informed.

.

But you are not emotionally attached to her as I am. You don't know her as I do.

.

From the beginning we’ve said ‘her affair isn’t special, nor is your relationship with her’, we ALL (most) had that relationship with our WS’s

Well, I'm just not sure how NC will bring us back together. Some of the things in the 180 make sense but NC seems like it will drive us further apart. Seems like she'll think I don't care and make her give up.

.

The 180 is not to be confused with NC. NC is what you are asking her to do with Mr D. You mentioned Mr D is going through a “nasty divorce”, are you absolutely certain of that? Why haven’t you told Mrs D about the affair? She deserves to know exactly what is happening with her marriage & health, further more – don’t kid yourself into believing your wife’s story about his ‘divorce’, odds are… probably isn’t happening.

The 180 saved many marriages here on SI including mine!! It isn’t there just for the hell of it for somewhat casual reading. It’s there because it’s tried and true & it works. You don’t have to do each and everything listed, pick and chose what will and won’t work for you.

.

she blames me for our son knowing.

She blames you for pretty much everything anyways…

.

I tried to tell her over and over again,….. She said she was sorry and that she was being stupid and stuff. He told her he forgives her and that he knows she's human and made a mistake and won't judge her. Then I talked to him that evening. She's making a bigger deal outta this than he is. He knows how private a family matter this is and is not going to say anything to the other kids or his friends. It doesn't seem to really even bother him because we've told him that mom is sorry and we still love each other and are staying together.

My son was 16 when he had his d-day for Mr Lucky’s EA. It bothers them more than you think and I strongly urge you to get him into counseling so he can talk to someone other than his parents. You are pushing that the marriage will survive & what if it doesn’t? And it may not. Now you’ve lied to him and if you think your wife is taking any kind of responsibility for her affair – guess again. She is most likely laying this squarely in your lap. Young boys are bothered more about their mother having a sexual relationship with someone other than their father, rather than mom having an emotional affair. It took about two years before our son got furious & it wasn’t with his dad it was with me!

.

I mean, I know its a big deal but my wife is saying she's devastaed that he knows, absoutley devasted and I know, she blames me for it. I can't get through to her that it was an accident that he found out. She probably won't even talk to me for a good few days. What a mess. This whole thing totally sucks.

A few pages back someone suggested you just STOP. Take a break from trying to heal her – because YOU CAN NOT HEAL HER. You keep crossing and re-crossing your lines in the sand with her, over and over, and over and over… She is not showing any kind of remorse, she isn’t doing the work to recover her marriage and family. She doesn’t have to. You keep doing it for her.

She’s busy blame shifting and you are carpet sweeping. Now that your son knows she has a whole new reason to be mad at you, to point the finger and blame you for something else.

You are overwhelmed. I get that. We ALL do. But do remember we have ALL been in your shoes to some degree or another. Earlier it was suggested that maybe you take the time to re-read the thread from your first post until today. Really take a good close look at it.

Quit calling and texting her unless it’s absolutely necessary, borderline emergency, for kids and finances ONLY. QUIT letting her blame you for your son finding out. STOP plea bargaining about your kids, marriage, her ending her affair with Mr D…. Didn’t you mention also that another child knew too? Do try and get your son into IC ASAP – he needs a professional to talk to. Certainly not his parents, you two are the last people who should be advising him.

[This message edited by Lucky at 11:13 AM, May 15th (Wednesday)]

I believe somewhere in this very long thread,you said the OM is married and going through a divorce. How do you know this? Because your wife told you? But..she's a liar and cant be trusted.

Call his wife. Don't tell your WW that you're going to call her,just do it. Chances are,the divorce will be news to her. And if.in fact,they are divorcing,I wonder if it's because she found out about this affair awhile ago.

calkid,

SI member wert has a post in Reconciliation on his perspective at 1.5 years out from dday that you may find enlightening. Not just his posting, but the feedback from both BS and former WS.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=496045

I don't know if this has been touched on in the last couple of pages but, Calkid, your worry that 180 will "push her away" should be whole-heartedly superseded by the fear that trying to "nice" or "force change" her back in to a relationship with you will result in D-days #4, 5, 6, 7 and so on down the road.

I assure you, as does everyone else, that once you go 180, you will notice that you will find strength in YOURSELF and lose the burden of your WWs bullshit. This isn't cutting them out of your life, it's protecting yourself from the same heartache and disrespect that you've been receiving for 10 plus pages.

So, last night, I checked that fake FB account and it said that the password was changed 3 days agao. Its linked to a gmail account. So, I tiied to check the gmail account and she changed the password on that too. So, she's on eastern time. And it was 10:00 p.m. here. So I call her and call her and she won't wake up and answer the phone. Our son was home from the hospital staying with her at the hosptial so I called his cell phone and he dind't answer. So, he calls me back. "What's up?" "I need to talk to your mom. Go wake her up" So, he goes and waked her up. "Why did you change the password on the gmail and that fake FB account." "Are you serious? Good night Calkid." "So then she starts texting me. "Are you gonna bring this house down with your craziness?" "No" "How are we ever suppsed to move forward? Don't contact me tomrorow. Just let me be." "Fine" I've come to the realization that I can't control her and until she stops doing stuff like this, I am doing the 180. I won't contact her today. Nor, tomrorow, nor the next day. If I text her, it will be only about necesssary business related things or the kids. Period. I'm gonna work on just being me from here on. Especially the next week and a half until she gets home. My heart is so shattered that yes, I'm acting cazy. I gotta stop. I gotta pull it together. I gotta be strong. Its hard because of the 20 years of my heart being so close to hers, such a great marriage, such a great friendship, I haven't had to work on myself. I haven't had to be by myself and be strong and independent. Everything has been about us. This family. Never me.

(((Calkid)))

Please. Be kind to yourself.

Just to comment on the changed passwords - THERE IS NO GOOD REASON FOR THIS.

Meaning, she is either trying to contact the OM or any number of other negative things. Her reaction is to make you feel guilty or minimize as if it doesn't matter. IT DOES.

Transparency (if one of your boundaries, which I strongly urge you to demand) is 100% necessary to healing. DO NOT LET HER JUST IGNORE THIS.

DEMAND the passwords and get on there and retrieve all deleted sent/recvd msgs.

I am so sorry she continues to put you through more crap. And, this is MORE (additional) crap.

If you can't maintain the 180 - may I suggest the "nuclear" option. We know you want your marriage to survive. But, as has been said over and over again here at SI - sometimes you have to be prepared to give up your M to see results.

Tell her you are done. Tell her this last bit of disrespect (not only changing the passwords but then MINIMIZING and attempting to RUGSWEEP the issue) is the last straw. Tell her you are seeing an attorney and then GO.

Tell her you will be sending her separation papers and she can just stay where she is or go wherever her little f*cked up heart tells her to go.

BE STRONG. YOU DO NOT DESERVE ONE SHRED OF THIS BULLSH*T.

And, certainly do not deserve additional pain on top of everything she's already served you.

FTB.

Really. FIND YOUR ANGER.

FIND YOUR RAGE and channel it to knock the f*cking fog off her. DO NOT CODDLE HER ANYMORE.

If she doesn't snap out of it, you will know what you have to do.

If she is still conflicted (chasing the OM) or just too far gone in her demonizing of your role in this, you haven't lost anything that wasn't already done.

I am so sorry. (((Calkid)))!!

'morning calkid,

While you are working on your 180 for the next 10 days, read the healing library. read the thread started by wert that I posted a few messages back, read the BS primer thread, read Not Just Friends by Glass and Sexual Detours by Hines.

Make appointments with a couple of attorneys to find out what D will entail and will be like.

I wondered the same as confused, do you know for a fact that OM is divorcing or is that what OM and or WW said? If you do not know for fact, then I would notify OM BS.

She is gone. A remorseful WW, a W who loves you does not hide email and facebook passwords. A mentally healthy individual does not blameshift as she is doing to you.

ETA: What JanaGreen posted next is spot on.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 7:49 AM, May 16th (Thursday)]

((calkid))

I just wanted to point something out - the 180 is a tool to help YOU with your healing and YOUR sanity. The purpose is to help you detach so you don't go insane. In some cases when a WS sees his/her BS detaching and moving on/being healthy without him/her, it can knock WS off the fence. HOWEVER if you use it as a manipulative tool to try to save your marriage, that defeats the purpose. Because you're doing 180 "things" and then looking to see what kind of effect it's having on your WS, trying to make her get it. And thus not detaching. You really have to get to a point where you genuinely don't give a damn what they are doing. It's HARD. But it'll keep you from losing your mind.

((HUGS))

This is hell, I know. I'm so sorry.

((((Cali))))

That sucks. You need to get yourself deeply entrenched with the 180. You need to clamly tell her what your expectations are of R. Transparency, NO lies, No Contact, NO omissions of truth. Whatever else you need to feel like R is moving forward. Let her know that you have every right to check on her, and if she can't handle it too bad. She either allows it, or she goes. I think almost everyone of us BS's out there will tell you the dislike, anger, frustration with us following up, snooping, checking up on comes from a place of dishonesty.

Those with nothing to hide, Hide NOTHING.

We have all been in the same or similar place. I don't think there are many people that smoothly R without any setbacks. However allowing her to have the upper hand and rugsweep, and minimize this is not going to create a successful R.

(((((and strength))))

I am fortunate (ironic word, huh!) to have a WS who snapped out of the fog within a couple of days of D-Day. I did threaten to leave. In fact, we're only three months out and I still say time will only tell if we'll stay married because there is so much he needs to do to get to the bottom of why he did this, understand why, and learn the coping mechanisms to make sure it never happens again. When I look back, he changed at some point. He became really cocky and treated me like shit. So affair aside, in order for our marriage to work we need to figure out why he was such an angry ass and why I put up with it.

But this is what my WS is doing and if he wasn't I'd kick him out (and I have two little ones, one with special needs).

1) Total transparency - I have all passwords and an app that lets me see his phone (texts, calls, gps, etc) on my pc.

2) IC - the shit is hitting the fan here. Major stuff is coming out.

3) MC

4) total, brutal honesty about the affair. We spent one night in particular walking through it and I asked every question I had and he answered every one. I know he was honest because it wasn't pretty.

5) he says he's sorry every day.

6) I have never seen him cry so much in my life.

7) After NC she contacted him and he called me immediately to tell me he was coming home from work and figure out together how to handle it.

I can go on, but does this sound anything like your wife? Not from what I have read.

You have the gift of time alone right now. Please see an attorney and learn about your options. Please, please, please, see an IC. And definitely contact the OM BS. Your wife has no remorse for what she's done. Nothing will change until she wakes up and sees what she's done for what it really is. It doesn't matter if Mr. D is around or not, she'll just find someone else. After all, she did go looking for this.

((Calikid)),

Wow, I have not been on boards awhile but just read through large sections of this situation. I have a few takes that you have heard already and a few that might help.

1. This is not your doing! Don’t allow her to paste any of her decisions on you. The behavior and decisions she makes are speaking volumes. She doesn’t respect you or your marriage as she should and the only way to protect yourself and possibly have her get her head out of her ass is to close off as much as possible protect yourself, focus on you and your son and see if her actions change.

2. DETACH (http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=459284&HL=30079) Ill bump it. YOU NEED TO FOCUS ON YOU! If after you move to a place where you can gather your self, process and see a clear path the constant drama and trying to sort this out is irrelevant.

3. TELL OM’s BS!!! She deserved to know , and until then are you ever sure the relationship has been terminated. The recent change of passwords leads me to believe NO! maybe underground, n hold awhile, etc….

4. A written NC letter is necessary, one you see written approve of and see mailed. Not a possible text to end this which you can’t truly verify.

5. STOP HOLDING ON THE OUTCOME. This really takes a long while to sink in, but you have no control over her or the outcome. The only control you have is over your actions and not ENABLING HER and her affair. Please see this link. http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=408443&HL=30079. Ill bump it as well. Detach, Focus on you and your needs, Lock into a mindset where you don’t care about what she says only what she does, actions will demonstrate a desire to get back into the marriage. Actions like hiding passwords, changing passwords, hiding things. All point to she is still in the affair at least mentally.

6. NO one deserves this shit. But don’t carry burdens that aren’t yours to carry. There are many reasons people cheat, none of them involve you. There are other functional ways to deal with any relationship issues before slitting the throat of a marriage through infidelity.

Lastly, You can survive infidelity, with or without your marriage. But first you need to let go of this dead one. When she decided to cheat she already ended your last marriage. Show no loyalty to it. YOU control this situation if you want to draw lines and boundaries with how your going to be treated. Please care for yourself.

LHAP?

My heart is so shattered that yes, I'm acting cazy.

One of the books I read post D-Day had a section entitled, "Should you reconcile?". They gave a list of indicators and one of them was the amount of empathy the WS shows when the BS acts "crazy" in response to all of this.

You have had so much to process since the beginning of this. She has lied and lied and blamed and blamed. And even now does not seem to hold herself responsible for your pain.

Stick to the 180. You are doing the right thing.

I could just puke. I should just listen to you guys. I'm so stupid. My boss today, was encouraging me to fly down south and see her this weekend. So, I took his advice thinking, it would, be romantic and break up the monotony since shes not supposed to be back until next Friday. So, I book the tickets, line things up for my parents to watch the kids, line up the rental car etc. Then I call her and say guess what baby, I'm coming tomorrow for the weekend and I'll get to see you, the grand baby (which I've hardly seen since he was born) and my oldest son on Sunday when he and his wife come back from the hospital. Then she's like, "I thought we were taking a break to let things cool down? You never give me a chance to do anything for you. I was planning on coming back on Tuesday and surprising you. You are always complaining about me not reciprocating your love but you always beat me to the punch." I tried to say, "why didn't you keep it secret still? I would have been blown away! And, at least I get to see the grand baby and son." I still feel like and idiot. Here she ties to do something sweet and I ruin it for her. I could just die!

That's what she said when she found out about your plan.

What make you think that's what she was actually planning? Could be a tactic to maintain the power in this exchange.