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You need to fill this (pointing to her heart) because if you don't, somebody else will. This will all happen again, I guarantee it.

Oh FFS. You better try harder or I'll find some other slimeball to rub my crotch and kiss my boobs? WTF. She is ridiculous.

And how exactly is groping some guy in a parking garage "filling her heart"?

Pathetic. She may be a great person somewhere inside, but right now she sucks.

how exactly is groping some guy in a parking garage "filling her heart"?

Agreed.

You should call the shots!!! She is not in a position to tell you what to do in my opinion- SHE should absolutely work through her 'whys' but YOU should work on YOU.

It seems like she's full of shit at the moment- I hope this changes for your sake.

I apologize..I certainly didn't mean to add to your pain.

Pulling her onto your lap after the things she has said..just makes me so sad..and angry for you. you can not "nice" her back into your marriage. Nor are you responsible for her choosing to cheat..telling you it's your fault,and you need to fill up the hole in her heart,or she will do it again...threatening you with more pain..Im sorry..I did sound harsh...your post and the way she is treating you had me seeing red.

You are still in shock..and maybe a bit of denial. I remember those first few days. The pain,the agony. I should have been more mindful of that pain, your pain,when I posted earlier.

I am sincerely sorry.

((((Calikid)))

Very sorry you are going through this. It really is the worst pain a person ever suffers.

I don't want to sound too sarcastic - but, when you pulled her to your lap and said "we do not cheat...etc."

Do you see how weird this dynamic between you two is? Kind of paternal?

I assume if you've been together more than 20 years that she is, in fact, an adult.

Do you not see a problem with having to explain why an affair would be the wrong choice?

Did you honestly think this was news to her?

I know you are desperate.

We've all been there.

I know you want to just love her and have everything magically restored.

But, you are in for a world more hurting. SHE TOLD YOU - She basically THREATENED you with another affair.

In what universe would this EVER be an acceptable dialogue between two spouses??

Where is your anger (at her)?

Why do you think she should be coddled and pampered like a wayward toddler?

I know I am beating a dead horse here - but I am just so angry for you.

And, I guess while I am here, I will also comment on her need for "closure" and her stupid cow of a friend who said "you stole that from her"....

WTF???

This friend of hers is NO FRIEND TO YOUR MARRIAGE.

This friend is a sick enabler. Imagine thinking YOU stole anything from her in this sick, twisted situation...

I know you are not ready to lay down any boundaries. I doubt you will even draw a line in the sand.

But, may I please suggest, when you are ready (and I pray it is soon - or at least before every shred of your manhood is eaten alive) - that you also consider banning this so-called "friend" from your lives as well.

Please do not think I am blameshifting to the friend. I fully put responsibility for all of this carnage squarely on your wife. However, with a friend like that whispering in her ear what she wants to hear - validating her fucked upness - you will never get through to her.

Do you really think you can just move on from here now that you've set the record straight - NO MORE CHEATING???

Didn't your wedding vows allude to something along those lines?

Didn't you already acknowledge directly to her that she made that promise to you long before meeting Mr. Dickhead?

I wish there was a way to hug YOU and put you on someone's lap and gently BUT thoroughly get it through your head - YOU CANNOT TOLERATE THIS.

Not one more minute of her playing the victim.

Gosh, I am so sorry for you.

Calkid,

I read thru and didn't read if "Mr D" is married or not?

If he is PLEASE inform his W of the A asap!

It is the right thing to do for multiple reasons, exposure to fatal STDs etc etc etc...

I could re tell my story here but it would just be redundant. Cheaters really are pretty much the same.

You will feel better, hope will return. I'm 3yrs out and still dealling with TT but the truth is setting me emotionally free and depending on Ws action may set me physically free as well.

You and I are similar in that we are good family men. We are trying our best to keep our families whole. I believe that is noble and admirable. I would be long gone if not for wanting to keep my family together, have a real M with my W and protect my children.

Hang in there brother!

I would re-read what 5yrsout said- it's good advice.

I do understand when someone you love is behaving irresponsibly or is upset- almost childlike it is easy to fall into that trap- I'm guilty myself. She's a competent and responsible adult- even if she isn't acting like one.

She is not the victim here.

A bit of detachment for you will go a long way right now. I don't mean that you are to start ignoring your WW.....I mean that I think that you should consider not making yourself so vulnerable to her right now. At this moment, you and your WW are not a *team* that is working together, in unison, to solve a problem. Teamwork involves a good-faith effort from both parties....and that is not what you are dealing with currently.

It is incredibly hard to not get *sucked into* that pseudo-intimate conversation that seems so authentic and raw.....until you have time to process it later and realize that you've just been handed a perfect plate of crap.....but were so *mesmerized* in the moment that it looked like a delicious dinner.

Call, you made yourself vulnerable by pulling your WW onto your lap....and she responded by manipulating your vulnerability. JanaG very succinctly translated your WW's statement into *real world* language.

I'm sitting here, just shaking my head at your WW's audacity. It's really unbelievable. Toe the line, CK, because if you don't then I guarantee that I'll do this again. Wow. That's emotionally abusive to the extreme.

Calkid,

I second 5yrsout.

Cheaters usually get closer to "friends" that agree with and validate their cheater mindset.

My W distanced herself from long time friends/family that had good character and surrounded herself with several worthless anything goes toxic "friends".

As part of your rules/conditions going forward you should require that these "friends" be treated the same as mr D, out of you and your WWs life forever!

Well, I told her after that lap conversation that if she ever speaks to or communicates with Mr. D ever again, or if she ever would cheat again "We will be f*cking done! No going back through this again. I can't handle it. No more forgiveness for any more cheating." This morning, we had a talk. She asked me if I saw her as damaged goods. I said no but I saw her as someone who lost their way and is broken. I asked her if she thought she was broken and she said yes. The I asked her what in the world happened to where your moral compass could be so off as to think that you could possibly justify cheating again I didn't toe the line? "You used to know that adultery was wrong. What could have possibly messed you up this bad in your life?" "I don't know.", she said. So then I left for work and got down the block and had to pull off the road and have another breakdown. I felt alone so I called my sister-in-law who has also had to deal with affairs from by brother to talk. My wife is not happy with her and thinks that she instigates. So then my wife called me and asked if I was talking to anyone. I told her who it was I was talking to and she got mad and said, "That's nice" then wanted to go. I called her back and told her that we weren't talking about the problems in our relationship but how to deal with the overwhelming grief. My wife then said, "Babe I love you so much. You don't deserve any of this. This is 100% my fault. I did this. I did this to us and our family." I told her I was glad she was owning up and she said, "I"m tired babe. I'm tired of thinking about this and talking about this. I just want it all to go back to the way it was before all of this. I just want it to be Calkid and Mrs. Calkid against the world like it used to be." She told me what a great man she thinks I am and how greatful she is to have me in her life and how she will guard her heart agains predators like Mr. D from here on out and how she's gonna communicate with me better and let me know if she's not happy and if any other man ever pursues after her or hits on her that the first thing she'll do is tell me about it. Then she said she will NEVER let anything like this happen EVER again. It was wonderful to hear all of this stuff and if she means it, hopefully she's coming back to being the virtuous woman with a moral compass that points true north again. I really miss and need her back with me again.

Brother. It is somewhat promising that she has moved on from the threats. (Don't expect it to last) But here are some flags:

I told her who it was I was talking to and she got mad and said, "That's nice" then wanted to go. I called her back and told her that we weren't talking about the problems in our relationship but how to deal with the overwhelming grief.

So she hung up on you or just abruptly ended the conversation? Why...because she didn't want you to talkto her sister about betrayal? Then you had to call her back? That is some good manipulation. You have to feel guilty about talking about your grief. Not good.

she said, "I"m tired babe. I'm tired of thinking about this and talking about this. I just want it all to go back to the way it was before all of this. I just want it to be Calkid and Mrs. Calkid against the world like it used to be."

This is called rugsweeping. Let's just forget about this and move on. You suck up your hurt and never talk about anything again. I won't do anything to fix myself, and we'll be just fine!

I have bad news for you brother. You will never be able to go back to you and her against the world. Because it wasn't true. She didn't have your back. I am sorry to say but the relationship will always have this scar, and it will never go back to the innocence that it once had. (I'm sorry)

she will guard her heart against predators like Mr. D from here on out

Oh, well that's reassuring. Mr. D, didn't make her do anything. She doesn't need to guard herself. She needs to figure out what is broken inside her that made her think it was o.k. to do what she did. It's not Mr. D's fault. It's hers.

She either wants to blame you for not filling her heart, or blame him for being a predator.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 11:26 AM, May 3rd (Friday)]

Calkid,

I am very sorry to read of your circumstance and pain; I fully get and have experienced it firsthand with a monster, and it is all a person can take, nearly taking the life from you. You will make it through no matter how dark it gets, believe it, and be it D or R, stronger and smarter on the other side.

Now, she has said a lot, but all those words will need a hell of a lot of action till they become true. I know how nice it is now to seem some hope, like they shocked a dying patient back to life, but be very careful here. Cheaters are skilled liars, and many times their brokenness will prey on your good nature and desperation.

I look back at the crap I wrote and told my exWW shortly after D-day, and although I know why I did it at the time, I make myself sick reading it. You must be tough on her always, never worry if you will piss her off, or drive her away. Any opportunity you give her for R is a gift, and she should be BEGGING you for it, and drowning in the remorse she gives you.

Also know how you feel now will change. You may look at her in a few weeks and absolutely hate her guts. This is normal, and so is the idea that you may not want any form of R, that you no longer love her, and what she did is beyond what you can accept. Again, all of this is fine, normal, and your call. She dropped a nuke on the family, and that means should you not want to pick up the pieces, great.

Also, be very ready for the rage stage, and know how powerful it can be. As long as it is not too long, it may give you clarity that seems elusive, and get you the hell out of limbo if in that spot. Again, I'm very sorry for your pain brother, and everyone here wishes you the best!

Ok. Your WW seems to be pretty manipulative, so you are going to have to steel yourself. Here's why I say that: she tells you that you need to 'toe the line'. But then, You called *bullshit* on that statement...so now she's changed her method and is trying a new plan of attack.

Do you see this? Do you see how *odd* it is that 24(or so) hours ago she was *guaranteeing* you that this would happen again....and now she's saying that it will NEVER happen again?

She's throwing stuff out and hoping that something will *stick* and you'll just shut-up about it.

The conversation revolving around you talking to your SIL worked out pretty well for her, too. She put you into immediate *defense* mode.

I, and a lot of others, can see right through this crap because we've all dealt with it. I used to fall for Sultan's deflection/manipulation tactics All.The.Time. He was highly skilled in that area, and I had *no idea* what was going on....and so I allowed him to jerk me around as if I were a wild horse that he was trying to *break*.

I used to post our conversations here and everyone would pick them apart, as we are now doing to yours. One of the MOST valuable tidbits that I gleaned (although it took a really long time to *sink in*) was this:

Don't JADE yourself or your reasons.

Don't:

J(ustify)

A(rgue)

D(efend)

E(xplain)

....because when you JADE one of your actions to a person that is manipulative, you are only giving them ammo.

What ^^that would look like in your *SIL phone-call* scenario is this: WW asks who you were speaking to. You say SIL. WW says "that's nice" (even though it CLEARLY isn't) and then says that she has to go. YOU SAY: "Ok, WW. I'll talk to you later. Don't forget to pick up that milk at the store."

t/j at Wonder:

She either wants to blame you for not filling her heart, or blame him for being a predator.

Nice catch.

end t/j.

Calkid -- your wife and marriage as you knew it 2 weeks ago is over -- done. This does not mean you can't start anew -- but she has to committ 100% to do the "heavy lifting". She needs help to figure out what is broken in her to have betrayed you, herself and your old marriage. You need to get help yourself -- and after each IC -- maybe MC ti rebuild and start again.

One thing for certain -- her words do not mean anything -- escpecially at this point -- her actions starting today and going forward mean everything.

Also, any toxic friend of hers who helped her or condoned this affair --- she needs to get rid of immediately.

Good luck --- it can be done -- but you are just starting -- and a long way to go.

I just want it all to go back to the way it was before all of this. I just want it to be Calkid and Mrs. Calkid against the world like it used to be."

Unfortunately, in that old before life you were married to a W who saw mutual groping and oral sex with OM as the way to fill an empty heart.

There is no going back. She needs to own the damage she has done to you and the M, identify and own what is wrong with her that she would allow this behavior within her boundaries, and then she needs to help you repair the M if that is what you decide that you want.

Healing is a long and difficult path for the BS. The ups and downs (roller coaster) will continue for quite a while. For many of us, the real anger does not come until months later when things start to settle down and we feel a little bit safer.

Ask questions and work at understanding what has happened, but I do not think any of us (BS) ever really understand the irrational WS behavior and thoughts.

The advice to focus on you (180) and less on your WW for now is good advice.

-Ats

Calkid, one thing I wasn't ready for was the constantly changing outlook I had.

She has thrown a rock in your pond. Her action is over for her. You will feel the ripples of that action for a long long time.

I think I hit about 6 months out and was looking for an excuse to end it. That came on me all the sudden and passed after a little while. Be prepared for all of it.

My FWW also tried the I just want to go back to the way things were. I told her I was absolutely ready. I would do it as soon as she could go back in time and change her actions. This is the new reality of you and her. She chose to destroy what you had. She CHOSE to injure you through her actions. Of course she wants it to go away.

For a while my wife said the fallout isn't equal to the actions she did. I absolutely disagreed. She thought I was too harsh. I told her and still believe she will never experience the pain she caused for me.

As a side note, (and I hope this doesn't make me a bad person) I got read the riot act by one of my wife's best friends. She preached how this was all my fault and on and on. I told her I hope you never have the experience to see how wrong you really are.

She has a slight inkling something might be going on with her hubby. My wife told me this. I thought it was funny. I wonder if she feels like its her fault?

t/j

As a side note, (and I hope this doesn't make me a bad person) I got read the riot act by one of my wife's best friends. She preached how this was all my fault and on and on. I told her I hope you never have the experience to see how wrong you really are.

She has a slight inkling something might be going on with her hubby. My wife told me this. I thought it was funny. I wonder if she feels like its her fault?

I totally get this! My wife's friends rallied around her. I wonder if they would have rallied around her if it had been their husband that she was screwing?

My MIL told me that I need to remember that my Wife is a woman who knows what she wants and isn't afraid to get it. And that I hadn't been doing enough to keep her happy, so she found a better way to be happy. WTF?

I haven't had the heart to tell MIL that she is doing a terrible job at keeping her Long-time boyfriend happy since he has been caught cheating 6 different times by her. Not to mention her ex-husband who had multiple affairs. I guess my darling MIL forgot that these guys knew what they wanted and weren't afraid to get it.

End t/j.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 12:45 PM, May 3rd (Friday)]

Calikid,

You need to fill this (pointing to her heart) because if you don't, somebody else will. This will all happen again, I guarantee it.

IMHO, you need to tell her she is free to fill her heart any way that she thinks will make her happy. The only thing that you require is that she put on her big girl panties and end your marriage before she moves on to the next guy that is going to fill her heart.... i.e. not as your wife.

She needs to believe you mean this and are ready/willing to pull the trigger next time it happens (BTW not to say that you are not justified to pulling the trigger this time if you determine this is a deal breaker).

I would just like to caution you that calling off the lie detector is probably a poor decision. Cheaters are liars, and they are happy to spin their stories any way they want to anyone they want. So when she told the SIL the same story she told you, it could very well be that she spun the same lies just in case you found out someday and she had her "cover" story in place. And don't think for one second that she didn't contact OM and tell him what story to stick to either.

And lastly, it's TOTALLY common for an AP and a WS to "break up" via text message, show it to the BS, and then things continue on underground. So just because she texted him that it's over and he texted her that he won't talk to her, does not make it truth for even one second.

Lastly, if she's an active Mormon, I highly recommend going to her Bishop. Just sayin.

I'm sorry I was harsh.

Hey man. I am not totally suprised at your W behavior. We jokingly refer to it as the playbook as sometimes the behavior is eerily similar from WW to WW.

You have got tons of advice and support. I just wanted to add that I see your W behavior as highly manipulative. I would caution you to believe much of what she says right now. Actions can be trusted because they are hard to fake, but words are easy. Especially from someone who almost always chooses to lie to you versus having to deal with consequences of her actions.

After time it isn't what they did with whom that gets to you, it is the lies that they told you to cover their tracks that creates the distance.

You seem comfortable with dropping the poly requirement. I would caution you on that. If there is not anything else, your W should be on board with it. If you sense any hesitation or anger I would take that as a strong indication that there is more that you don't know. You are dealing with overload right now, so you can leave the story where it is for a little while, but I would reserve the right to keep that as an option.

Also your W telling you that you need to fill her up in a significant toxic trait in her that needs to be addressed. Her needs for validation drove her to make this choice. No one can give her enough validation, this is something that is broken and needs to be addressed by her, for her and ultimately so she can be safe for you again.

The closure comments alone warrant her exploring this with someone who has had training. Her worries about her reputation, again warning signs. The main point of the reputation angle is that she already ruined her reputation. Just not everyone knows it yet. I ma not suggesting you tell people about it, but the fact that she thinks that by minimizing who hears about it, it will go away easier.

You seem to be doing ok, considering. It gets better if your W is really willing to work through it. On average it takes 2-5 years to heal from this. Each time a new detail that was withheld is found out it set the time spent healing back to 0. Make sure you can do everything to get as much out as soon as possible. Your W has to be open to discussing this with you. If she isn't, and wants to stay M, she needs to learn why.

Take care.