SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

we have some pretty terrific guys on SI. I think, though, they (cough*OIAL*cough) don't always realize that they are truly that far above the bar, compared to the guys that brought a lot of us women to SI.

inconnu, nailed it exactly! Really, the BH's here are extraordinary men. So, why did all these extraordinary men and all the wonderful BW's here not find each other and instead found people who would betray us? *shaking head* One of those great cosmic questions that will never be answered I imagine.

You know, we have some pretty terrific guys on SI. I think, though, they (cough*OIAL*cough) don't always realize that they are truly that far above the bar, compared to the guys that brought a lot of us women to SI.

The same thought occurs to me as well.

Believe me, the reverse is true too. In the deep dark silences of introspective mapping - the what if's - few of us have escaped wondering; "If I'd only met you."

True story. I proposed to a whole thread once.

I'm that bad.

The Rabbi is a bit abrasive, as slh pointed out @ oial's catch of his generalizations. I particularly enjoyed slh's nailing the dear Rabbi's DON'T ARGUE WITH ME I'M RIGHT argument to the contrary. Since I'm, you know, contrary.

The point is, it made you think about the lather rinse repeat in our own individual lives, and you'll not stand your man not doing dishes next time by god sexy self.

& made you think...how do I do that?

That's introspection. That's good. It's a quality too many sadly lack to our...ok, sadness.

Dear Rabbi,

I have never lived in fear that my wife would stray. I have been married. Two times. BOTH strayed.

I can see how you might think I'm jaded saying this, but no, I'm better with the help of the dearest friends I have met and have yet to meet (SIers who have not been to gtgs)

Tell you what Rabbi. I'magonna post this puppy up on SI under a female name in general. I'm not gonna invite you. Can't stand the sight of blood and guts.

Because you've caused some of us to introspect, I respect.

Well, maybe not. Because I've been told I can only experience lust, rage, and what was that other thing? Victory? Conquest?

I just want to repeat dear Rabbi, I never lived in fear.

Even after two times I ain't a scaredy guy. I'm just out of the batter's box after two strikes. If your writing helped only one or two of my wounded sisters on here to find some part of themselves, I thank you.

Awaiting your next article.

On how you're an adulterer.

I'm sure you'll understand.

Kindly,

jj

I didn't stop feeling raunchy when real life kicked in. There's nothing like hot monkey sex after a hard day.

I stopped feeling raunchy when I started numbing and dumbing myself down to keep the peace in my M. When I stopped loving myself by tolerating disrespect.

He encouraged me to spend time with my friends but would then punish me for it in subtle ways afterwards.

I would refuse to tolerate a particular behaviour and he would acquiesce but would then punish me for it in subtle ways afterwards.

He would begrudgingly spend time with the family after agreeing that he was not participating in our family but would then punish me for it in subtle ways afterwards.

Anyone else seeing a pattern here?

I was emotionally abused for many years. It was so subtle even though I felt it I could not see it so doubted my perception. I spent years convincing myself it really wasn't as bad as it felt. It was. It really was.

I remember telling my girlfriends that sex was so bad I did what I had never done and what I had always vowed I would never do. I faked it most time for pretty much the last 3 years of that M.

I am a very sexual person with a very high libido. It all but disappeared for those years. We still had sexual contact maybe 4 times a week and I initiated it most of the time. I was desperately trying to get it back. All to no avail.

I remember telling my girlfriends that I was scared that it was gone for good. I talked to my Dr about it, I tried all sorts of things. It got so bad I didn't even touch myself anymore.

I am happy to report that now that I'm not being emotionally abused and am no longer lying to myself my mojo is back....big time.

I've seen a few episodes of Shalom in the Home. The advice about reconnecting is right but its not rocket science. I guess it proves the adage that common sense is not at all common.

TFS, very interesting article.

StillLovingHer expressed it well. Shmuley's tone suggests that he is describing the norm.

I should have prefaced my remarks with a disclaimer. I've heard the stuff he's saying, directed at me from the XW. She had the online alias "bored housewife." According to XW, I sucked all the joy out of her life, and she told me she faked all her orgasms. This was her stated reason for cheating.

I'll be the first to admit I'm no virtuoso between the sheets. I was guilty of being static and unimaginative. Then again, it was hard to compete with the dozens of younger, freshly discovered bodies she was laying with, especially considering I didn't even know about them.

If Shmuley were accused of being an OM (and judging solely from that article, it wouldn't surprise me), I'd be disqualified as a juror when I showed up with a sack of stones.

Silly me, I thought sex was best as an expression of love. I didn't realize I was also supposed to remain an adventurous horndog for 20 years.

On those rare occasions when I *would* get a little raunchy, it made XW uncomfortable and she wouldn't have it, so I felt dirty and stupid. Hmm, sense a pattern here? Maybe instead of targeting men as a bunch of emotional imbeciles, Shmuley might have recognized that women are just as capable of cutting a man's libido clean off.

Funny thing, in response to XW telling me I sucked the joy right out of her life, I told her that if that were true, we must not be right for each other, and we should get divorced. This was before I discovered the full extent of her cheating. The fog burned off real fast then, and she came back saying that she has a terrible way of blaming me for all the unhappiness in her life, and begged me to not leave her. Hmm.

Who in hell wants "insatiable?" By definition, that's someone who can never be satisfied. Um, no thanks. I've been there. Shmuley can have my XW, see if he can satiate her.

I think Shmuley was off target. I submit that the real reason we betrayed spouses felt de-sexualized was because our partners stopped loving us, and the other behaviors (not so interested in sex with us, e.g.), were symptoms of that lack of love. It was also unfortunate that he generalized so broadly as to make this poor treatment a male-only shortcoming.

[This message edited by OnceInALifetime at 12:19 PM, June 16th (Sunday)]

I can see now that this article would be offensive to many decent men. When I first read it I just identified with it and didn't think of that.

I don't know how a person stays sexy in the context of a long marriage either, just seeing eachother in a familiar light through thick and thin, and all the practical boring details of sharing a home and a family and a life and dreams.

Sometimes it's just gratifying to read an article that reminds you that it was not all your fault.

And at times I have to remind myself of my own responsible part in the mess. Like why I married someone who never told me I looked beautiful.

I'm sure another article could be written that the men would identify with and then the women on the board would feel dismayed. An article about how women turn their husbands into children by taking charge of everything and managing so well which would only make a woman cranky and tired and then critical at which point the men would give up and the wives would point out the husbands lack of initiative.

Yes I'm sure an equally annoying / supportive of one gender article could be written.

Sorry if posting this article offended decent, faithful husbands on the board. This was not meant to be directed at you.

I'm not offended

truth be told, I find that the "shared life" is sexy as hell! Seeing my W being a mom/wife, or doing those mostly thankless "jobs" that moms/wives do...and then remembering suddenly the this woman is not just my wife, or just a mom, but her own individual woman, with an entire world inside her that I only get brief glimpses of,...well, that's sexy as fuck!!!

whenever I hear or read about how all the "mystery" is gone from someone's relationship, that they know everything about their partner, I think to myself "this person has no clue what they're talking about".

Its really a very self centered thing to say.

I think of SLHim, and all the shit I DONT know about her.

Sure, I've heard her many of the same stories more than once, and at times it seems we have no stories left to tell, but there is so much more to a person than the stories they tell.

not really what this thread is about, but, oh well, that's what came out

I kind of went into orbit there. Guess that article flipped some triggers for me.

I'm sure it reads true for many relationships, but I don't think it's gender specific. Control issues can become a problem for either gender, but the real issue is lack of compassion.

Some member's tagline here at SI is (or was) something like "there's nothing sexier than fidelity." For me, that rang so true. The thought that this woman has devoted herself to me turned me on no end. That's why it hurt so damn much. And that's what we can all relate to.

Long-term marriages have their ups and downs, ins and outs. That is the nature of the beast. I don't know that any long-term relationship can sustain the glow of love let alone a blast furnace of passion without any low points.

A responsible partner would recognize this and not panic when the ebbs occur. They may not be happy about it, but they would understand that the passion can (and most likely will) come back.

Sadly, this was not the problem in my relationship. We were actually on an upswing in our cycle. The kid was grown and didn't need us very much. The X was nearing his second retirement and we were looking for a place to retire (semi-retire). My career was in a comfortable place. Life was good--until it wasn't any longer. The reasons have nothing to do with this article.

In general these things happen. Couples do get too comfortable and routine with each other. And I can understand the principle of what he is talking about. But it does work both ways. I have come to realize that my XWW was one of those women who loved falling in love. She loves the attention and romance it brings. Even if its all a bullshit lie. She simply can not get enough of it. She has had around 10 relationships since our split. Rarely lasting over 6 months. Usually that's the time comfort sets in and the chase dwindles. I personally think this was and is her motive for cheating. Sex is just a trade off for the thrill of the chase. So she took this principle to the extreme.

On the other side of the coin. Men also see change in their wives desire in them. Women who used to flirt with and entice their husbands change also. They take for granted the fact that men also like to be chased and romanced. What starts out as an incredibly hot and heavy relationships simply wanes on the woman's part. They no longer make themselves attractive for their husbands. Hair, make up and sexy clothes go by the wayside. They come to bed looking like a guy. Oversized tee shirts and sweats. Old lady panties etc. IDK about the rest of the guys here but that's not a turn on for me either. And I do understand that they cant be looking their best all the time. Its hard on both partners to find the time to romance each other. But once another guy shows some interest. The hair and make up is back. The sexy dressing starts all over again. New undergarments are purchased etc. You see it here all the time. One big red flag is a sudden change in appearance.

For me I think both sexes are guilty of doing this. One big complaint my XWW always had was my appearance around her. And I have to admit she was right about that. I went to work dressed to the nines. I had nice suits, shirts, shoes and ties. I took pride in my work appearance. But on the weekends it was all jeans, sweats and ratty sneakers. I had a great Aunt and Uncle who were M over 50 years. They were that type of couple who always looked good together. Even in their elder years they looked great. You could tell that after all those years they were still in love. At their 50th anniversary party my uncle gave a speech. In it he referred to my aunt as "my Anna" he said the secret to their long M was to never take the other for granted. To treat every day you spend with your spouse like your first date. They then danced and did not take their eyes off of each other for the entire time. Even with hundreds of family members yelling and clapping for them. They just started into the others eyes the whole time. Nothing else in the world mattered to them at that moment. It was very heart warming. They were M for 63 years when my aunt took ill and passed. My uncle who was the picture of health soon followed. We all said he wanted to be with his Anna. One thing I have learned from all of this infidelity crap is to never again take another for granted.

Stronger, you make some very good and valid points. For one you described exactly what I did in the last few years of that M (except for the WW part).

The thing is he had detached from me and our family well before I got to that point. Back when I was still madly flirty/attentive and very very INTO my husband.

We can cherish and nurture our relationships all we like - if its the 'in love' phase they're after nobody can sustain that 24/7 for very long let alone long term. It ebbs and flows. Its is during the ebbs that a 'healthy' couple work harder on their relationship with each other, with themselves and with the people around them.

I am offended by Schmuley's view that women cheat because they are neglected. That is a croc of horseshit. I was badly neglected for 5 years. I went to the sweat pants/unwashed hair for the last 3 years.

Those around me saw it was a cry for help but I shut them out when they asked if I was OK.

I dressed up for work and for outings but at home I just wanted to disappear so as to not poke the bear. I, the extrovert, became a recluse in my own home. I did not cheat.

What I have learned is that I'll never take myself for granted again. Never. I'll never fall for a love bombing love addict again.

I've learned that I was a very very good wife who married a very very damaged and broken man. I settled for less because I loved the way he loved me. I overlooked a lot because I loved the way he loved me. I took myself for granted.

This is part of WXW's justification routine - specially the part about it being all my fault. The truth is I never wanted a caretaker, waitress or wife (yes, wife). I wanted a woman. Period. The Rabbi would no doubt counter this with a lack of awareness of my subconscious self and my unwittingly confirming to these stereotypes.

I'm not so sure. In my M, WXW had a big hand in taking herself down this road. She 'put away' her former self to become the world's greatest mother. It was what she had always wanted in her life more than anything else. A termination in her 20s fuelled her internal pain and drive to be a mother.

Fair enough. I was very happy to have kids, but never had the drive that she did to do so. Same with marriage actually.

What I know I didn't want was for my wife to suppress her sexuality in favour of being a wife and mother. I really didn't. I wasn't worried about not being able to keep my wife - I had trust and love.

She had some health issue too that didn't help, but it was her that launched into being a mum - quit work and did nothing but be a mother, pushing me into the role of sole breadwinner - one that I accepted but always voiced my concerns about.

I also didn't do the things in here that this article suggests. I didn't ignore her or turn her into my ideal wife/ mother figure. I have a long standing aversion to that kind of family model. It's not what I grew up with (although WXW did).

Instead I tried to face it with her. She closed it down every time. Couldn't face it. My sex life with my wife had become moribund and she wouldn't discuss it. I bought her the clothes, complemented her, took her out etc etc. Didn't work. It got to the point where she struggled to have sex with the kids in the house asleep. I lost heart. I became depressed. We failed to communicate.

Then she had an affair and it was ALL MY FAULT. It was because I was depressed. It was because I was working too hard. It was because, because.....

This is why I find this article to be a generalisation with a somewhat blaming tone. It is not always just down to the husband's actions conscious or not (and I find this whole subconscious argument something of a cop out - easy to say it's all subconscious when proof is not readily available). Sometimes the wife actually contributes to these things too. I;m not saying I didn't play a role - far from it - it's just not as simple as defaulting to well worn cliches about man's natural competitiveness and ego. We're only a short hop away from those spurious arguments about man's natural need to procreate as widely as possible - the one's that we have all heard as the worst kind of bullshit justification for infidelity. That procreative need for man to distribute his genes as widely as possible is also, incidentally, a subconscious drive.

Just saying.

In general these things happen. Couples do get too comfortable and routine with each other. And I can understand the principle of what he is talking about. But it does work both ways.

Sometimes the wife actually contributes to these things too.

Very interesting. I was reading this and seeing myself with my current SO, but I kept thinking it’s not him doing this it’s me. Ever since I moved in with him 2 months ago I flipped this switch to homemaker and I’m struggling to get back to normal. Will definitely have to make more of an intention to take care of myself.

Couples do get too comfortable and routine with each other. And I can understand the principle of what he is talking about. But it does work both ways.

I absolutely believe this... it goes both ways.

I loved the story about your aunt and uncle, stronger. It seems like they definitely got it right.

It was very heart warming. They were M for 63 years when my aunt took ill and passed. My uncle who was the picture of health soon followed. We all said he wanted to be with his Anna. One thing I have learned from all of this infidelity crap is to never again take another for granted.

Awww, shit, stronger, you made me cry!

I will admit to a complete loss of my sex drive with my ex. And I had a much bigger one than he did at the beginning. Through my IC and the many books I've read, I think my reasons were very different than this article.

#1 reason, I became a SAHM and started slowly taking over household stuff. As he worked more, I did more. Until I was doing 99.9% of the house and yard. He still helped w the kids if he wasn't working on a project. Then I was expected to start taking care of him. He morphed into this other kid that I had. It is NOT sexy to be with someone that did nothing for themselves. And you know the drill, I would get pissy ask him to help and he would huff and do it half assed. And then next time I wouldn't ask, get pissy and he would finally ask what was wrong and then I would tell him and he would say, "you just had to tell me what to do."

As this went on and I suppressed my anger/frustration and most importantly my lack of respect, other emotions got suppressed too. This isn't uncommon w women evidently. From what I've learned is that average guy can still have sexy feelings when suppressing bad feelings.

So I really don't think it was being a "mom" to my kids that made me feel unsexy, but being a "mom" to my husband is what killed it. I wanted a partner, not another large child.

And let me tell you, my sex drive has recovered and then some!

I believe sometimes they do it on purpose.

They might do it out of fear of failure, looking to create excuses for straying or maybe some of them are just flat out control freaks.

Some men are so controlling that they will finish right before you can because they even want to control that!

Or they claim they're trying to fix their ED problem, but don't take the meds or cut them in half thus ensuring they retain control over their response or lack thereof.

Or they might hurt you a little bit while you're having sex-not enough to make an issue out of it-just enough to make you not want it anymore.

When a woman realizes a man is over controlling and going to such extremes to maintain control, it will destroy her libido, mess with her head and make her absolutely hate him.

"So I really don't think it was being a "mom" to my kids that made me feel unsexy, but being a "mom" to my husband is what killed it. I wanted a partner, not another large child."

I COMPLETELY identify with this. I think that when my WH/BH started sexting with all the pretty young nurses at the hospital, he had already stopped looking at me as his wife and lover, but rather his mother. I had often said in frustration " I am not your mother, when you do something to contribute to this house its not 'helping me'!". Eventually when I had my own A, if came to recognize that it offered me an escape from being everyone's mother. Unfortunately I acted out, instead of taking care of myself and redirecting my needs in a healthier way. The dynamics in my marriage weren't good, and in retrospect, were unlikely to get better. I can only hope that in the future, I do not allow myself or my partner to fall into the trappings of this article. Sadly, it rang true for me and had catastrophic outcomes. I take the blame.

Funny but I thought marriage was doing what you could to make the life of the other person better and easier. I never minded the housework, the kids or anything like that. I thought my EX loved me no matter how dragged out I was at the end of the day sometimes and no matter how I looked. It did matter to him though. One of the most hurtful things he said to me post D-day was that I was kinda pretty and if I fixed myself up that somebody else would want me. OUCH. That one still hurts at times. I am not doing that this time around. I get my hair done even though it bugs the shit out of me to sit for 2 hours in a hair salon. I wear much nicer clothes when I am not working and I spend time on stuff that I like.