SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not that I owe you an honest response to your sarcastic remarks

My observations were sincere, but you're right: you don't owe me anything. In your initial post you stated what you wanted to hear from other WSs; be advised, we're not going to restrict ourselves to what you want to hear.

Welcome to SI, where you can take what works for you, and leave the rest. I'm glad you started posting, and I hope you'll find it as helpful as I have.

What have you really changed about you since your A? Other than NC, and reading, what have you changed about your core self? That part of you that made it ok to have an A? Maybe that is what is triggering him, he still sees that same person before him. Nothing has really changed, words are great, you telling him you love him, but actions are better. Changing that part of you, those internal processes that said it was ok to go out and have an A because you were unhappy, or not communicating, or your H was an asshole, or whatever reason you told yourself this was ok. It sounds like you have focused a lot on him and not so much on the person in the mirror.

I've done a lot of work in this area too. I'm not a religious person but I have come a long way spiritually. I do yoga and I meditate almost daily. I have spent a lot of time reading, writing and reflecting on what type of person I am, what type of person I want to be and where those two meet. I struggle the most with being a good mother and role model for DD. When I get stressed my patience is low and I have high expectations of her. I don't want to be that way and I'm working through that. My mother wasn't a good role model and so I journal about the values and morals I'd like to instill in her by example and how I can work them into age appropriate life lessons.

Those are the things that come immediately to mind. Maybe there's more. Maybe I haven't done enough. But I certainly like to think I'm not going at it with the expectation that he do all the work.

What led you to a place where you thought it was ok to have an A? Have you figured that out?

Ok, I'm confused. So he pulled your shirt off in front of people and you were "embarassed"?

You didn't say he was tackled by family. I can't imagine the violence needed to pull a shirt of someone while others stand and watch.

I'm the LAST person to defend violence. It just seems much is missing or what's there doesn't make sense to me.

You don't owe me answers and are not in a deposition. I understand his actions may be very wrong.

Here's the problem. Yeah, he was in school. Then his world got blown up. Concentrating on studies while he's trying to process that type of blow is pretty hard to do even when you're driven and focused.

You state he's an amazing father. I also get that. My ex is as well and I've been to the ER because of his choices a couple times. I did pick divorce. I offered to leave and give him the house. I figured if I wanted to bounce then I should be the one to do it. He wanted to so that was how it went.

You don't want to divorce. Then I'm not understanding, not that I have to. My choices fucked me up 6 ways to Sunday. It has taken 3 years to get to the point I feel confident in my progress. I struggled and floundered as some amazing members can attest. I don't see much on here about your quest other than treating him better.

Standing by the river and talking about jumping then storming off sounds like someone in fucking pain and very angry about it. Not someone with a blade to their throat, but I'm not there.

The involuntary hospitalization about sent me off the rails. My mother used to threaten me with that. The helpless position he's in does NOT need any fuel. I'd imagine that would send him over the fucking edge. I know it would for me.

Trying, you posted on here for feedback and I'm just trying to get a better understanding. If you're telling me you aren't afraid of him at all while posting about your shirt being ripped off and your reaction is embarassed? I don't understand.

I don't want to inflict pain. I'm also not one to support DV or any form of abuse regardless of letters a poster claims. I'm seeing your husband as someone that's hurting very badly and don't have enough information to not be in his corner at this point, being tossed out of his home and away from his daughter yet the goal is reconciling.

Sounds like a very painful situation for all parties and my thoughts are with you all.

It was a tube top and he pulled it down, I quickly pulled it back up -- I had a flood of emotion, the most prevalent being embarrassment and I wanted to leave. It happened again on the way out and this is when he went from snickering about it to raging. Not afraid of him meaning I don't think he would hit me (although often I think he would like to) but the biggest thing hurt that night was my ego and my dignity. And my friends who had to watch the awful night unfold. You're right, I'm being light on the details. I'm new and I'm hesitant about creating a permanent record on the internet. I also don't want to sit here and complain about my BH and make him sound like a monster because I know hes hurting and I love him and I'm here to help us get better, not to justify my actions or sway people to my side. I'm happy to share details that are relevant but mostly I want advice on how to start rebuilding the right way because right now I feel like we're still sitting on square 1.

I'm not going to touch the comment on suicide. While I do not worry about him 24/7 I have no doubt that his threats are real and a result of his pain. I don't feel comfortable assessing if it is a call for help or if he would truly do such a thing, all I know is that it is brought up every time he has an outburst and it is sometimes graphic and descriptive as to how it would happen which, in my understanding, is very concerning. I don't know what difference it makes whether he really plans to do it or if he is just in pain -- I couldn't live with myself if I tried to assess the cause and didn't take him seriously enough.

Feel like I've gotten a little defensive in my responses here, and I apologize for that. I realize that for one its hard to offer advice and agree or disagree with someone's choices when only seeing a snippet of several years of struggle. I do appreciate all of the suggestions and advice here and reading the threads over the last year and a half has been immensely helpful in my healing.

While the separation is still new and there is a lot of work to be done, I wanted to share something BH said last night. He said he felt this was good and he finally feels he's reached a turning point. I asked why he felt this way and he said he knows because this time I don't want to just be with you, I want to be myself again.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 9:08 AM, July 25th (Thursday)]

So how are you going to feel if he gets to a point where he realizes that what happened was a deal breaker for him?

It would be devastating. Really, really shitty. But I think it would hurt less than feeling like he's here because he depends on me too much to leave. I want him to choose to be with me, not to be with me because he has no other option. This took me a long time to be able to admit and to digest what it means if he finds his independence and doesn't want me anymore.

It was a tube top and he pulled it down

Still seeing a problem here. Am I the only one? He did that, then "snickered" about it, then got angry because you had a problem being exposed in public? Am I getting this right?

Having an affair is a horrible coping mechanism. So is humiliating your spouse in public.

Still seeing a problem here. Am I the only one? He did that, then "snickered" about it, then got angry because you had a problem being exposed in public? Am I getting this right?

Having an affair is a horrible coping mechanism. So is humiliating your spouse in public.

ITA and I'm kind of surprised by me being grilled about the actions surrounding it and the emotions I felt about it because IMO it was wrong and violating no matter what the circumstances were.

We were having a really great day. He even agrees it was good and we were having fun with friends and family and he can't explain what causes the sudden change.

Still seeing a problem here. Am I the only one? He did that, then "snickered" about it, then got angry because you had a problem being exposed in public? Am I getting this right?

No, you're not the only one. Yes, this is a problem.

I understand the motivation behind it. I do not think it's acceptable at all.

Trying, I understand wanting to be careful with what you share but it's so hard to help with bits and pieces.

Let's leave him alone for a bit and concentrate on you. How long was your affair? With whom? Did you confess or did he discover? Has their been NC since day one? What did you tell yourself that enabled you to justify it?

What he said last night is very possitive. He wants to be himself again. That's an awesome feeling.

I understand your feelings about him staying there because he depends on you too much but do you see how much you are enmeshed with him as well? Since you've come on here you've posted about him. Nothing about you. No details of your choices. No list of what you've done to get to the bottom of this.

You're as dependent on his "motives" and proof of genuine desire as you assume him to be of you.

Right now I'm almost certain staying isn't because of you, necessarily. I would imagine his daughter would be top and you understand exactly why that is, right?

If you don't want to share details I'm not sure how helpful advice can be based on snippets. Don't need names and dates but a picture of what your choices have been is rather important. We've been there and made the same one's or very similar. We can help with this.

ITA and I'm kind of surprised by me being grilled about the actions surrounding it and the emotions I felt about it because IMO it was wrong and violating no matter what the circumstances were.

I understand but problem is detail make a huge difference. My ex used to walk by and untie my bikini top when we'd be at the lake and it was totally teasing and flirty. Not malicious or exposing. There's a difference in ripping off a t-shirt and something that went a bit too far.

Details can be parsed to give a horrible picture that is not accurate or at all fair.

Again, with bits of details about one partner and NOTHING about the other I'm hesitant to say much.

Here's what we know.

You cheated.

He has express anger.

You kicked him out.

Ta da. Do you see the pretty big gaps in there?

Here's what I get from that.

An affair is one of the most violent acts you can perpetrate on a marriage.

The receiver isn't going to be pleased.

So, yeah, I'm sympathizing with the receiver and the fact he's now been evicted from his home away from his daughter.

There are two people involved here and only details about one. Assumptions happen that way.

Let's leave him alone for a bit and concentrate on you. How long was your affair? With whom? Did you confess or did he discover? Has their been NC since day one?

Affair lasted 4 months. It was a PA but we lived in different cities so our encounters were only a handful of times.

It was with a coworker. Coworkers BS found out and then contacted BH and told him everything.

NC has been since maybe a month after D-day? Its been so long I hardly remember. We still work for the same company but OM was able to immediatly move into a role that no longer required us to have contact at work. As stated, he's in a different city so there are no accidental run ins, etc.

What did you tell yourself that enabled you to justify it?

Everything under the sun -- that I wasn't getting enough attention at home, that our marriage problems stemmed far beyond the A, that it was BH's fault for not being caring/supportive/intimate enough with me, that he was depressed becuase he didn't really want me. The OM was dealing with some similar stuff in his M and we (obviously wrongly) turned to one another for support, justification and validation. He made me feel good about myself, he was genuinely interested in me and my life and he made me feel wanted again, somethign I had convinced myself I had been missing for a long time. He became my closest confidant and, as a twisted result I pushed away a lot of my friends and family who used to fill that role for me. One of my first goals when I made the decision to fix me and work toward ensuring BH that it wouldn't happen again was to rebuild the relationships outside of my M and redevelop my support network so I had a place to turn when things got tough.

I understand your feelings about him staying there because he depends on you too much but do you see how much you are enmeshed with him as well?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I never intended for it to sound as if it was a one sided relationship. Of course our lives are enmeshed, we're married and I'd like to keep it that way, and it a lot of ways I DO need him. We compliment each other greatly in a lot of ways. He is so much more of a nurturing, caretaking parent than I am and DD needs that every day -- I don't think I'm a bad parent but we parent differently and fill different roles for her. I suppose when I talk about his dependence, its really not that I need him to be able to support himself or to be completely independent of me, I just want him to rebuild his confidence and KNOW that he can. And also to work on his support network too so that when he does get frustrated with me or have bad memories come boiling over, he has a safe place to turn.

Right now I'm almost certain staying isn't because of you, necessarily. I would imagine his daughter would be top and you understand exactly why that is, right?

I absolutely think this is true but he fears if he is done with me that he will lose her too. That may have been his sole driving force to keep us together when D-day was new. But I also believe that now he doesn't want to leave me either -- he has said so numerous times in a very heartfelt manner and I belive him.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 11:09 AM, July 25th (Thursday)]

Thank you for your post, trying. Very helpful.

Couple of things:

I just want him to rebuild his confidence and KNOW that he can

I'm not trying to bash you. I can't help but feel, from reading this statement, you don't have a real grasp of the damage of your choices. Rebuild his confidence? You cheated on him. With a co-worker (so, someone employed...not a student). He was blindsided when the BW contacted him and his world imploded.

His confidence is going to be impacted more than just a little for quite some time.

Your concern since you've been on here is why he's staying with you and how to navigate seperation. No wonder he's having "outbursts".

Contact continued, from your post, for at least a month. Where is your concern over your choices.

I'll give you my suggestion.

1. HE COMES HOME.

2. You start to understand the depth of his pain and communicate to him how sorry you are. Regularly. Sincerely.

3. You establish transparency, if this hasn't been done yet.

I know you stated you were unhappy and your husband was depressed. Affairs don't fix that. I know you get that now. Problem is that sometimes real hard to suss the chicken vs egg when looking back. You may not have been happy but sounds like he wasn't either. I'm betting high he has a list just like yous. We don't live in a bubble. Our actions affect others.

You mention you're a bit detached anyway. So think that may have affected him more than just a bit.

I'm strongly advocating him come home. If you're unhappy you can leave. Why should he have to. Sure he'd wonder where you are and what you're doing. Think he doesn't do that now?

Stop expecting him to rebuild anything right now and work on yourself. Dissatisfation and unhappiness isn't the cause of an affair. Not saying things were Mai Tai's and Yahtzee but doubt they were for him either.

Reassure him. Use more tools than Yoga. Take a good internal inventory of your strengths and weaknesses. Something I found is our strengths can be very dangerous if not properly welded.

If you're committed to this it can work. Drive and strength. Courage. All the above will be needed.

I'm not trying to bash you. I can't help but feel, from reading this statement, you don't have a real grasp of the damage of your choices.

I don't feel bashed. I agree. But he doesn't tell me how he feels or what I can do to help or what I do that hurts him more or what it is like to be in his place. The only measure of pain I have that gives me a small window into what he's going through is reading here, the books I've read and watching his behavior. I don't want to be the person who makes a list of things BH needs to do but I also know I can't fix this alone -- there has to be buy in from both sides.

1. HE COMES HOME.

I can't do this right now. You're seeing a very surface level of my emotion. I understnad I messed up, I hurt him in a way I can't begin to imagine, but I'm not an object and I don't deserve to be treated like one. I know his pain is greater than mine and that I am the cause of his but I'm still a human being and I still get to have limits on what I will put up with and what I won't. He hit one of my limits, and I can't just let it go. Since the incident I don't want to be near him. I don't want him to touch me and talking is hard. I feel disgusted that deep down this is how he thinks of me and I will not put myself in a situation to have a repeat of that experience until he convinces me we're really on the road to recovery. If he can't do that, I can't be in this M. I lost his trust and respect, but that doesn't mean that for as long as he chooses to be apart of this M that he doesn't have to maintain mine. I don't see his actions as unforgivable or as severe as what I did but they certainly aren't OK. If this were an isolated incident I could see past it (and I have, many times) but I won't spend my whole life telling myself I deserve to be treated this way. If thats wrong and means I'm not sorry enough and that I don't care enough then I guess I'm not as committed as I thought I was because I won't be that person.

2. You start to understand the depth of his pain and communicate to him how sorry you are. Regularly. Sincerely.

I'm trying. I feel I need MC for that to happen. I can't understand without his willingness to let me in. Again I don't want to be the person who keeps making excuses and blaming BH for why we aren't progressing, HOW do I work on this part on my own?

I'm strongly advocating him come home. If you're unhappy you can leave. Why should he have to. Sure he'd wonder where you are and what you're doing. Think he doesn't do that now?

Speaking practically, I can't support two households on my income and I work too much as is to have a second job(trust me I tried when we were sinking and DH refused to get a job and let me tell you, working that much isn't practical or healthy for anyone). If I move out, then what? We let our home go into foreclosure? How does that benefit DH and DD? Or are you suggesting I be homeless while making mortagage payments for them? Should I leave our DD living in a house with no utilities so I can keep my lights on or do I just go without? Its not practical financially -- not as in not ideal, but as in can not be done. He, on the otherhand, with DD in daycare now has many free hours to look for work and secure extra support, while still having the freedom to see her anytime he wants. I don't want to sound like a heartless b!tch but I just don't see how it benefits any of us to send whats left of our lives sailing down the river. You're a WS -- if your BS stopped working as a result of the A would you be ok with that? How about a year later? Two? What about when you couldn't support the family on just your income anymore, then would it be ok for BS to continue not working? This has been a *really* tough point for me throughout this experience. I've carried all of the weight of making ends meet and its not been easy. It caused a lot of resentment and made things worse for a long time. I have worked through those feelings, found ways to get by and have us sitting comfortably now. I can't throw it out the window because it seems more "fair" that he get to stay in the house.

Stop expecting him to rebuild anything right now and work on yourself.

Reassure him. Use more tools than Yoga. Take a good internal inventory of your strengths and weaknesses. Something I found is our strengths can be very dangerous if not properly welded.

This is all great advice and appreciate it. I will put some more thought into how I can further work on myself. While I do feel I've come a long way in that area, there is always room for improvement and I can admit the drive to continue self improving comes and goes. I should be keeping it as a priority.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 4:59 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]

Is your BH staying with friends or relatives? You don't have family near you?

Do you think of your husband as a companion or as another child?

Is your BH staying with friends or relatives? You don't have family near you?

Do you think of your husband as a companion or as another child?

Ouch.

He is with a friend. No family nearby and I don't have any friends here either. Literally 0. All of my time is spent working or with DH. The friends referenced earlier are not local. We were out of town visiting family.

UO is spot on with all she has said and the advice she gave you.

You haven't answered the second part of my question, however I know by how you have handled this how you feel about him. His "punishment"was he had to leave the house. Even though you blew up his world and yes he was acting immature, but he wasn't the one who cheated.

From all you've written all I can read is how bad he's treated you. I think that what he has done to you is/was wrong,yet what you did to him is no picnic either.

UO is spot on with all she has said and the advice she gave you.

You haven't answered the second part of my question, however I know by how you have handled this how you feel about him. His "punishment"was he had to leave the house. Even though you blew up his world and yes he was acting immature, but he wasn't the one who cheated.

From all you've written all I can read is how bad he's treated you. I think that what he has done to you is/was wrong,yet what you did to him is no picnic either.

I did answer the second part. My response was "ouch". Nothing I have said indicates I treat my husband like a child.

Asking him to leave was not his punshment. Again, I fucked up, I'm paying my time, I'm still working to be a better person and I have no expectations for when or if he might ever truly forgive me -- and yet I'm here still trying. But if I had repeat unacceptable behavior toward him that was intended to hurt him and I didn't treat him well, I'd expect him to do the same to me. At some point, there has to be a cutoff for what you will put up with, even as the WS.

I personally find it disturbing that anyone can suggest that my asking him to leave was wrong. At what point is it ok? They're hurt so they get a free pass for everything, including abuse? I have stopped the damaging behavior. He has not. I'm not playing the victim and I don't need anyones approval but to me saying this is OK is what someone who is abused says while they continue to let it happen.

I didn't come here to cry about how bad I have it. And while you are all free to assess whatever aspects of my relationship you please, I didn't ask whether I should let him come back home. Its not on the table at this point. If you'd like to tear me apart fine, but if you're all here to help like you say you are, suggestions on HOW we work through this and what we can be doing to rebuild trust during the separation would be appreciated. I'm stepping off the defensive box and not commenting any more on whether the decision for him to go was justified.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 5:35 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]

You can't effectively work on it apart. Do you think that your BH feels that you could be contacting your AP...even if you aren't? You put a lot of emphasis on your safety...what about his? You abused him too with the affair.

You and he need to be able to sit down and discuss rationally your relationship. If you fear him that much to send him away,do you two really need to be together