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I mean honestly, how do you take seriously the advice from someone who said that your BHs suicide threats seemed more like a cry of pain than an action they might execute on?

First of all that was NOT said. I said there was a broad range and without information it was hard to advise.

Less information makes giving advice easy? Sure. If you want generic cut and past.

Didn't ask you for a War and Peace novel just a few facts like was NC established. Good lord.

Yep, boundaries are essential. I don't consider your requirement for him to have confidence and stay because he wants you a boundary. I consider that an entitled overreach.

You can't do it alone and he absolutely needs to start to heal. No question about that. But tell me, trying, he's comes to this realization after you kicked him out. So has he or is he feeling like he needs to do this to get home?

Not sure how you accomplish healing through seperation.

You posted about his outbursts. Does something trigger him? Is he able to communicate that with you? When you talk about the affair does he have questions? Did you do a timeline? Did you give him all the truth or was that provided by the BW? Did he ask you to leave your job and was that possible? The OM is still with the company, correct? You've read on here how many BS's found it impossible to heal in that situation.

Again, as I've said countless times, you don't have to remain married. There is nothing wrong with feeling the relationship is toxic.

How do you feel you've changed since your choices?

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:17 AM, July 26th (Friday)]

One of the lessons that is hardest to learn is that each person has to carry his or her own water. You need to develop your own capacity to deal with hard situations healthily. So does your husband.

A WS can try to help a BS heal, but ultimately the BS him or herself has to do it. That's just the shitty simple fact.

You and your husband are people, human beings with human flaws. You both were before the A and you both are after. It sounds like you both had some real difficulty coping effectively with tough situations before the A. Your A was one example of a poor means of coping. It sounds like you have done some good work on fixing some of that which is great. Because the only person you can heal is yourself.

You worded this much better than I could have. I DO feel accountable for my actions and the damage I've caused, but I also have healed enough to relize what you outlined above. I guess the root of my question is that I'm not ready to give up on him because I do still love him dearly and I do think that we still have a chance, we just haven't found the right path yet. I don't know how to get us on that path. And I want to help him find the strength he needs to start facing this head on in a helpful, not deliberately hurtful, way. Maybe asking him to leave isn't right or isn't what everyone would have done but something had to break the cycle so we could reset and try a new approach.

A huge part of what I have been working on is being able to talk with him openly and honestly. I've been doing just that and its been met with a lot of backlash from him. If I tell him something hurts my feelings he gets angry and shuts down. Doesn't want to talk about it. It makes me feel like crawling back into my emotional hole and covering the tracks. Today he admitted that when I tell him these things it feels like I'm criticizing him and he is being lectured. It felt really good to be able to tell him that I've been burying feelings for a long time and it was one of the key factors that has led to many poor choices I've made. I reiterated that I don't intend to point fingers and I'm open to criticism about my approach with him but that I want to be able to talk to him in a way that reassures him we have no secrets or repressed feelings because then we find other ways to cope. I told him when I say something is lacking, it doesn't mean he is doing something wrong and needs to fix it, it just means that I want him to know its bothering me so we can talk about it and figure out how to address it together. It felt really good to be able to state that to him and let him know why it hurts so much when he just shuts down.

These make him seem to be the main reason your marriage is in the condition it is in.

Has he always been as you described?

Not at all. The depression has been ongoing for a long time, starting before we even met (we've been together 9 years) but all the other behavior has been a direct result of the A.

Sorry I misunderstood. Can you clarify for me what you meant when you said this please?

Standing by the river and talking about jumping then storming off sounds like someone in fucking pain and very angry about it. Not someone with a blade to their throat, but I'm not there.

If I tell him something hurts my feelings he gets angry and shuts down. Doesn't want to talk about it. It makes me feel like crawling back into my emotional hole and covering the tracks. Today he admitted that when I tell him these things it feels like I'm criticizing him and he is being lectured. It felt really good to be able to tell him that I've been burying feelings for a long time and it was one of the key factors that has led to many poor choices I've made.

Ok, so you can tell him something is lacking and he is supposed to be open and responsive but if he gets angry you retreat and shut down and that is what lead you to cheat.

They key part missing from the paragraph you quoted seems to be the "a WS can help a BS heal".

What have you done to help him heal?

When you're telling him something is lacking are you speaking about the marriage?

Yes, I can. Standing by a river and saying I should just jump and stop the pain and storm off is not a suicide attempt. It's a I'm fucking beyond hurting and want it to stop.

You say you've lurked here a bit. Ever read general? Take a look at the number of posts where some form of that statement isn't in the title. I don't want to wake up. I would never do anything but just want this pain to stop. When I'm driving sometimes I think how easy it would be to just let the car roll down that cliff.

People in a burning house don't act like people at a picnic. I guess I'm not sure what you're expecting to see at this point. A calm discussion? Raging, name calling, scorched earth is not helpful to anyone. Is that what he's doing? Or is he going forward with times he's just really angry and doesn't always moderate his tone or choice of words?

[This message edited by uncertainone at 11:44 AM, July 26th (Friday)]

I get what you're saying, and I guess I'll just chalk it up to you aren't there but I think in subsequent posts I've expressed the seriousness of it and that I do think his threats are real. He physically hurts himself. He has punched himself until he falls to the ground with a swollen cheek. I've watched him bang his head into the hood of a car so hard he almost knocked himself out. He has begged for car keys while beyond intoxicated so he can drive to tell his daughter goodbye. He tells me in anger that he means it this time, he's really going to do it.

I have no doubt that what he says is an expression of pain, I have no doubt that he says it to hurt me because I hurt him, I cannot say that I doubt he would ever do it because the day I stop taking it seriously EVERY TIME is probably the day I'll regret it. Without being there, please don't belittle it to something he said because he wishes the pain would go away and imply that he can't mean it because there isn't a weapon in his hand. You have no place to make that assessment. Coming to a message board and posting to a group of people in a similar situation is not the same as screaming at your spouse that your done and you're going to go end it.

AND my reason for sharing this is not to point fingers that this is his issue or that he is the problem. My reason for sharing is that I don't know how to deal with this behavior and I had hoped others would be able to share experiences of what worked for them when they felt like they were just spinning their wheels.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 11:58 AM, July 26th (Friday)]

Trying, I know I'm harping about details.

I have a co-worker I used to work with. She'd tell us how mean and abusive her husband was. I volunteer with DV victims and have experienced a fair bit myself. Was reaching out her giving her materials and contact information.

Company picnic. They were at the company picnic. She was talking and wasn't paying attention. Knocked her drink over. Got on him and the lady next to her. He responds "maybe looking at what you're doing would be helpful, babe" as he's mopping himself up. She tears up and looks at me. "See what I mean?". Um, what?

People have very different views of what is considered cruel and unkind. My ex would have "outbursts". The "c&$t" was a seasoning for those along with grabbing leaving perfect finger print bruises, pushing, pulling, throwing, punching (3 times...he'd hold on to those for special occasions). That's why I agreed with trying and stated I may no be the best poster.

I consider the choice to cheat a form of domestic violence. I certainly used it as such since I didn't stand a chance in the "ring". Plus I also gave my ex the choices that I was exercising. That's why no lies. How can an affair be revenge if it's secret?

When someone learns the person they trusted with their life can also be the person that deals them the worst blow they've ever felt it can result in some pretty dicey reactions.

I am a very strong proponent of boundaries and not tolerating behavior from yourself or others that is disrespectful.

Your post, while short on details, was key on his choices for staying being very important to you. His building his confidence. His view of you. That's where my focus went. These weren't asides. These were details in a sea of vague so took those to be the key issues for you.

Ok, so you can tell him something is lacking and he is supposed to be open and responsive but if he gets angry you retreat and shut down and that is what lead you to cheat.

I don't say I do, I said its what I feel like doing because sometimes being open feels like it just makes him angry and defensive rather than initiation communication. I have, over the past couple years, been persistent in continuing to be open despite the less than desirable response I get from him.

What have you done to help him heal?

As mentioned I spent a lot of time working on me, I am open with him about all of his questions and he has the whole truth about the A. He doesn't really ask anything of me in terms of the A and overcoming it anymore but when he does, I do. Everything is transparent. I hide nothing. I have apologized, I am sympathetic, I am overly affectionate and I try to do something every day to let him know how much he means to me. I try to rebuild confidence and let him know I respect him by complimenting the things he does for me and for our family and even for himself. Its a long list.

When you're telling him something is lacking are you speaking about the marriage?

It can be anything. Asking how he's feeling or mentioning that he seems down is a reoccuring example. If I say "I've noticed you seem kind of off lately, anything I can do?" he takes it as a personal attack.

Recent example is that I told him I felt we had disconnected a bit and I wanted to talk about what we could do to improve that. He reads this statement as he isn't being loving enough and needs to try harder.

I try to be super gentle and I'm so cautious about wording but if there is any indication that we might try to work on something he thinks its his fault.

In this scenario, he doesn't get angry like in the outbursts I described, he just walks away/changes the subject/goes on pretending like nothing was said. I knew he was not communicating back and we weren't working on thigns as they come up but it was only today that he told me he feels attacked.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 12:15 PM, July 26th (Friday)]

I get what you're saying, and I guess I'll just chalk it up to you aren't there but I think in subsequent posts I've expressed the seriousness of it and that I do think his threats are real. He physically hurts himself. He has punched himself until he falls to the ground with a swollen cheek. I've watched him bang his head into the hood of a car so hard he almost knocked himself out. He has begged for car keys while beyond intoxicated so he can drive to tell his daughter goodbye. He tells me in anger that he means it this time, he's really going to do it.

Ok, this is NOT ok. He's clearly needing intervention. We cross posted. I get why you didn't want to post details but it's not making him a monster. It's someone not capable of dealing with the pain he's in right now.

Drive to tell his daughter goodbye. Were you guys out?

So, alcohol needs to stop.

What triggers these? Is it drinking? Have there been any calm periods where you've been able to talk about the affair? Does he ask questions or just stuff and explode? What if you bring it up at a quite time to ask him if he has any questions and reassure him. Will he accept that?

sometimes being open feels like it just makes him angry and defensive rather than initiation communication. I have, over the past couple years, been persistent in continuing to be open despite the less than desirable response I get from him.

What you wrote here reminds me of something I'm ashamed to admit I actually said a few weeks ago. "Well, if I can't honestly express my feelings to you, BH, then I'm just going to go back to my old MO of stuffing my feelings down and cultivating resentments. And that worked out really well before, didn't it?!" In other words: blaming BH because he didn't "respond well" to my bringing up my "open and honest feelings."

What I have just recently embraced is the concept of "compassionate communication," and taking responsibility for how my messages are received. And, how I receive the messages of others. Learning that skill, a.k.a. empathy, is my #1 healing priority right now. If my BH says he feels hurt, and gets defensive because his perception is that I'm criticizing and lecturing him--I need to recognize that his feelings are valid, even if that was not my intent. On the flip side, when I feel hurt because it seems like he's criticizing and lecturing me, then I'm going to lead with, "I think I'm hearing you say you're frustrated because I just did/said X. Did I hear that right?" In other words: give him the benefit of doubt, and an opportunity to explain himself, instead of jumping straight to: "You hurt my feelings."

He reads this statement as he isn't being loving enough and needs to try harder.

Do you feel like he's being loving enough, and trying hard enough?

It can be anything. Asking how he's feeling or mentioning that he seems down is a reoccuring example. If I say "I've noticed you seem kind of off lately, anything I can do?" he takes it as a personal attack.

Recent example is that I told him I felt we had disconnected a bit and I wanted to talk about what we could do to improve that. He reads this statement as he isn't being loving enough and needs to try harder.

I can see both sides on both these. Being kind of "off" is pretty critical, actually. He's going to have days he's not chipper and I would bet high at 2.5 years in it's most likely affair related. Can you approach him and just hug him? Tell him you love him and can't believe you made the choices you made?

Same with disconnecting. I'm sure that after a good period it would be very normal to follow it with a period where one would disconnect. Just survival mode would dictate that, along with the internal fight of enjoying time spent with a spouse that also was responsible for your worst pain.

I can only imagine the fight one would engage in choosing to stay with someone that made our choices. I think that would anger me damn near as much as their choices. Almost like a self betrayal, at least at first.

Drive to tell his daughter goodbye. Were you guys out?

Yes. This was another part of the explosion this weekend, but its not the first time he's said that.

What triggers these? Is it drinking? Have there been any calm periods where you've been able to talk about the affair? Does he ask questions or just stuff and explode? What if you bring it up at a quite time to ask him if he has any questions and reassure him. Will he accept that?

Thinking through it, I can't think of a time he's had a blowup that drinking wasn't involved. Sometimes out, sometimes at home but always there is drinking. But its definitely not every time he drinks either -- most of the time we can have a good time without issue. I guess that doesn't mean it doesn't need to stop.

We haven't talked about it in a long time. I've offered. He doesn't want to. He used to ask questions when it was new but not anymore.

What you wrote here reminds me of something I'm ashamed to admit I actually said a few weeks ago. "Well, if I can't honestly express my feelings to you, BH, then I'm just going to go back to my old MO of stuffing my feelings down and cultivating resentments. And that worked out really well before, didn't it?!" In other words: blaming BH because he didn't "respond well" to my bringing up my "open and honest feelings."

Wholeheartedly agree with the point you're making here and I was trying to word it carefully so as not to imply thats how I feel. I don't blame him for not allowing me to communicate, but I do recognize it as a shortcoming of mine and that I need to continue to do it no matter how hard it is or how much I feel like he's not listening or interested in working through it. Thank you for the example you shared.

Do you feel like he's being loving enough, and trying hard enough?

This is a really hard question for me to answer. Yes he is loving. Not always the way that I would like him to be but its obvious he tries and I can't begin to imagine what an internal struggle that is for him. As far as trying hard enough, I don't want to be the asshole that says no because like I said he shows me every day he loves me but we still have some really big obstacles to overcome and I wish he would open up to the idea of getting outside help becuase I think it would take us so much further than we can get on our own.

[This message edited by tryingandfailing at 12:38 PM, July 26th (Friday)]

I can see both sides on both these. Being kind of "off" is pretty critical, actually. He's going to have days he's not chipper and I would bet high at 2.5 years in it's most likely affair related. Can you approach him and just hug him? Tell him you love him and can't believe you made the choices you made?

Same with disconnecting. I'm sure that after a good period it would be very normal to follow it with a period where one would disconnect. Just survival mode would dictate that, along with the internal fight of enjoying time spent with a spouse that also was responsible for your worst pain.

I can only imagine the fight one would engage in choosing to stay with someone that made our choices. I think that would anger me damn near as much as their choices. Almost like a self betrayal, at least at first.

I see what you're saying. I guess we had reached the same conclusion but maybe my way of approaching it is wrong. I felt like telling him he seemed off or bothered and asking what I could do was a gentle way of letting him know my door is open and I'm concerned. I do realize how critical the delivery is so I will try to use more actions and reassurance next time rather than prying for details.