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My wife is still saying that she would have kept it secret. She's saying that it is doing no good that I know it, that it is only hurting me

What a load of BS. The truth is she doesn't want you to go out and do the same thing to her. Right now I presume she is the only woman you have had sex with? [We met each other when we were young] and she doesn't want that to change. If you had remained in ignorance about her cheating, then from her perspective you would remain faithful to her. Now she has to worry about revenge affairs; as I said from her disloyal, selfish perspective; not a reflection of your character.

She has no concern about the pain you are in. Just wants this mess to go away and be conveniently forgotten. Don't let this happen.

GreenGiant, My wife was actually very suicidal on the DDay. She was a danger to herself and had to be hospitalized for 3 days to ensure her safety. Please take her threats of suicide very serious and compel her to get the help she needs. Have a mental health care professional evaluate her asap!

As for where to go from here, listen and value all the help you are getting from the great people on SI. For me, I spent weeks reeling from the discovery and was not capable of making good decisions on my own. The natural tendency for me was to apologize for my part in our marriage not being as great as it could have been and wanting to take ownership for her cheating.

The most valuable lesson I learned early on here was that I was 0% responsible for her affair. She owned that 100%.

Don't rush in to any major decisions until you are thinking more clearly. BUT, it is very, very important that you begin compiling a list of what would be "deal killers" for me. A list of absolutely necessary things that my wife had to do in order for me to stay with her and work towards Reconciliation. IF she is/was not willing to comply with 100% of your requirements, then there is absolutely zero reason for you to work through all the agony and pain with her.

Truthfully, Divorce in my situation would have been so much easier and less painful. R has been a such a painful process with lots of heartaches. R is not for the weak!

Be strong, don't let her dictate SHIT and know that for R to happen, she has to own EVERYTHING. Anything less will fail and cause so much more futile pain for you.

Also, check out the Betrayed Men forum in I Can Relate. Not that you will get bad advice from anyone on SI, but there is something to be said for knowing you are not the only DUDE to go through this.

Again, thank you everyone.

First, I'll start with the facts. The OM is single, no girlfriend, no wife. Otherwise, she would know what happened, I would never keep that type of secret. Actually, I'm pretty sure he was in love with my WW. My WW say that after the first time they did it, he said to her how he loved her, and kept saying that he was happy they were "together". It makes me sick. I keep asking her if she had feelings for him, and she says that it was not the case. She felt good that someone paid attention to her...

I also have all her access to accounts, e-mail, etc. She is preparing a timeline, she say it will be hard, but realize that I do not thrust her anymore and think that she's hiding me something. We are going through the timeline thing soon.

After reading your thoughts, I think I'll tell her some deal breakers, as for the other things, I'll just tell her that those are important for me. Like "Not taking me for granted : Important", "Lying to me again or not respecting the NC : Deal breaker." I won't tell her anything unless my mind is clear. Also, she's looking for a job, but there is no deadline as for now. We'll talk about a deadline and some solutions. I know that it will be hard for her, but I realize that it is really, really hard for me knowing they could work together again. I had an anxiety crisis yesterday, and another this morning. She will have to change her job, she had to think about this before doing it.

@ jb3199 and jjct

You're right about the two points. My IC also told me about those two points. I had a discussion with my WW yesterday. I told her that I appreciate that she's telling me the truth, but that by saying it should have been secret, she was protecting herself more than me. She took

1 minute to think, and said that I was partially right, she wanted to protect both of us. She strongly believe that she was taking actions by seeing an IC, and that she already told the OM that they shouldn't talk to each other except on the job, and that it is right as she only see him as a COW. I have a lot of trouble with this. Yes, she ended the A several months ago. Yes, she was seeing an IC. But she kept it secret, and she still had contact with him. I told her that she can't see him as a COW, they had an A together and he's still in love with her. I told her that she had made some progress, but I had a big problem with the fact that she was still thinking about telling me lies so she would not hurt me, and about the fact that she thought that it would be ok to work with him again. I told her straight that we couldn't move toward R if she kept her position. I think that infidelity is almost as bad as the lying, so my position is that she's only working on half of the problem.

@ OK Now

Yes, she's the only woman I ever made love with. I told her that it was hurting me. I told her how she would react if I did the same thing, have an

RA, have a threesome, etc. She said that it would hurt her, but that she thought that if it would make me better, I could do it so we could be better persons and have a stronger marriage. I find this weird, and sometimes think that she's saying that because she's ready to go through anything in order for us to start R, sometimes I think that she's saying that because we would be "even", so she wouldn't be so bad.

Again, thank you all!

She said it would be ok for you to have extramarital sex - 3somes whatever - so she could be EVEN, and deflect the blame and responsibility away from her.

She is an uber- blameshifter and gaslighter.

She strongly believe that she was taking actions by seeing an IC

Ahh... so it's ok to cheat, just as long as you go to IC to find out why? (she's trying to purchase a pass here)

You know, in my book "taking actions" involve snot blubbering stuff.

On the floor stuff.

Lemme ask you, what would you NOT do if you cheated and wanted to be with your wife?

"Lying to me again : Deal breaker."

Careful with *this* because it's a *tricky* one.

Maybe be more specific and remove it from *deal breaker* status. Drop it down to a "if you lie to me again, there will be consequences up to and including <xyz>."

Can strongly relate to your story. I found out with certainty that my wife was having an EA on Christmas eve six years ago. I was surpised how violent my reaction was- hyperventillating and later having to leave midnight mass due to feeling faint. The feeling of carrying the burden of investigating further for the next six months and having no one to talk to about my struggles caused me much resentment that it took a couple of years and a lot of concerted effort in making a "living amends" to me by my wife to overcome. My wife was also suicidal both before and after discovery of the affair. She asked me to keep her pills and dole them out for awhile. (she has PTSD from childhood sexual abuse and was and is in AA) From all you write it sounds like your wife is really trying to overcome her problems. It is hard to carry the burden and not place blame, but viewing it from the other side of the experience, while not negating how unfair it is for you to have to deal with all of this and without much or any support, I know that for the betrayer it is a long and not linear path to good health. My wife struggled immensely with providing me with a time line and trickle truthed for all she was worth for the entire six months it took for me to gather all the evidence through my own sleuthing. Even today five years removed from any contact with her co-partner in slime and almost four years since she really got it through the invaluable help of a great therapist, she cannot talk about it in anything other than general terms unless I were to press the issue because it causes her to feel the shame that caused her actions in the first place. We as bs have only one advantage in this miserable scenario- we can grant forgiveness or we can walk. If you choose the former that includes as your partner starts to heal to heal yourself and as you do you are able to let go of some of the pain and resentments and desire for revenge and to see their side of the issue without so much baggage being attached. Of course this is only if your spouse is remorseful and doing everything they can to fix the problems they created. The fog is thick and dense and particularly when associated with past trauma in their lives they have never really dealt with, so the road is going to be bumpy. Nobody can blame a betrayed spouse for feeling it is too much to endure, but if you find it is worth the effort it will require much of you. Sounds like you have insisted on accountability and your right to verify if you feel concerned, both very important for you to heal. Oddly enough while in the fog my wife fought any "intrusions" into her privacy and was resentful at times of my wrecking her fanatasy, but after recovery she pointed out that she needed me to insist on boundaries, that those consequences forced her to abandon her fantasy world where the other guy's interest flattered and excited her into an alternate reality. Just as oddly, I used to worry about revealing what I knew, avoiding approaching delicate subjects and pushing her too hard even as she was breaking our vows to each other. In hindsight it amazes me how much rope I gave her to hang herself. We get altered by the experience as well, and in my case I became super sleuth more and more with each bit of info I dug up. Were it to hapoen again I would not play that game. Honesty always works best for me, and I would call a spade a spade as discovered and reveal and insist on immediate changes or behavior or walk. It is dicey territory, but in my mind it is always the right policy to be honest and to insist on being respected and treated properly while according them the same when they earn it through their actions and efforts. Off my soapbox now. This is a life altering experience that we never asked to have to endure, but the silver lining is that you will unwillingly learn much about yourself and become a stronger person for the experience. I wish you strength and wisdom in forging your way down this difficult path.

Latest update. Long ago, before i Know she had an A with her COW, we planned a weekend outside the city with our kids. We took the decision not to cancel this weekend, for the kids. It was a great idea.

I had a panic and anxiety crisis while we were at the restaurant, but otherwise, I had a lot of fun with the kids, and... my wife. While the kids were sleeping, we had a conversation about the A, and she told me numerous time how she screwed everything. The next morning, we went with the kids in a pool, and there was a giant slide. Had a lot of fun with the kids, and my wife was staying away from us. Suddenly, I had a strong envy of taking her in my arms, and she came playing with us. We laughed, told jokes, etc. Slowly, she's moving forward, and today she asked for my help, saying that if she had asked for it before having an A, nothing would have happen.

During the weekend, she talked a lot about her IC session. Turns out her mind is a total mess...

@ ming56

I saw your post this weekend. It made me think a lot. I am also surprised how violent my reaction is. In 2007 (I was 27 years old), I had 60 people working for me, built a house, had my first kid, and everyone was telling me how strong I was. I thought I was invincible. Now, when there is too much noise, or too much people, I have panic or anxiety attacks. Sometime, I also feel faint. I know for sure I wont go at some activities for Christmas, and and I will buy everything by Amazon so I won't have to go out.

I also think my wife is trying to overcome her problems. Yesterday she said that she had to go through this. She saw her parents, her brother and sisters having alcoholism and infidelity problems, and said she want this to stop at this generation. I also feel that it won't be linear, and a long road. She doesn't think so, but I know it will. You can't fix lifelong problems in a jiffy...

Reading your post made me ask my wife why she had an A with this guy. I said to her that I never saw him, but was sure he was depressed, had a lot of problems, lack of self-confidence... And she said it was true. She wanted to be with someone who could "understand"...

I feel that we are going forward sometime, moving to a path were she will heal herself, then heal me, so I'll be able to help her. I feel that when we will go there, we will be able to start R. There is now less fog than she used to have, but I see that there is still fog. She can't see it, but I do.

Thank you very much for your kind words. it helps talking to other people having similar stories, went through this and are feeling better. Your post helped me a lot, thank you again.

moving to a path were she will heal herself

Me too.

But no...

then heal me

Realize that your healing is not dependent on her healing you. In fact, you're already healing, whether you realize it or not. Just as you are in charge of your choices, and not of hers.

so I'll be able to help her.

Just don't be an abusive asshole - I believe that's all that's required at this point. Being calm, reasonable, assured...that's all good

BUT

dammit - we pretty much ALL want to "help her" (see the light, mend her ways, fix it)

You can help her by being calm, and not abusive, after that brother - it's her work to do.

If I could snap my fingers and make it different I would.

Been there thinking I was strong and could handle anything. I always prided myself on being cool under pressure- the tougher the situation the calmer and more focused I would get. Dealing with infidelity made a mess of my illusions about myself. It took a couple of years of no more disclosures, discoveries, and living amends to stop the fears from sending me reeling daily and to erase the peculiar odor I associated with my study where I used to make early morning investigations on the pc, persuing her cell phone, etc...a daily ritual. Coming home after a wonderful vacation free of the turmoil in my head I would actually dread entering my home because I no longer felt safe there, and the list goes on and on... So, definitely can relate.

Your wife saying she wants to break the cycle, whether her words of coming from her therapist is insightful and a very positive sign. My wife came from a long line of alcohics, and that was how she dealt with and minimized her abuse for most of her adult life until it just did not work anymore. Counterintuitively, after she was in AA for over a year she struggled and became even more suicidal. (they say the second year is actually tougher than the first when you discover there is no quick fix and this is for the long haul if you are going to make it) When she started dealing with the sexual abuse in therapy she came undone and started acting like the rebellious teen again and thus the EA.

Your wife stating she wanted to be with someone who understood when you asked her why she did this is poignant. After almost a year of "good behavior" and us being on the mend with nc with her former coworker, my wife suddenly attempted to call him after a traumatic experience. This was the final straw for me and after attending a funeral for a friend when she saw him for the first time in over a year (and had no interest in speaking to him)we went to see the family therapist who had guided us through so much healing. I expected this to be the final session since I no longer was willing to accept any misdeeds, and in fact the therapist, who I had previously felt did not understand the experience of a bs strongly supported me. Then...in trying to explain why she tried to make that phone call him my wife described him as also being a "fuck up." The therapist was able to help her see the connection and realize she reached out to him as a kindred spirit because he was also damaged and would understand her darker side that she had to conceal from me at all costs lest I lose respect for her and finally realize she was not worthy of my love. To make a long story short, just like that after years of near dual personality (good person, bad person seperation in her mind) she was able to see herself as an integrated whole. As simple as it sounds to a healthy person it was huge for her. She was finally able to deny power to and able to stop fighting her "bad side" from emerging every time she started to blame herself for everything bad that would happen around her. She realized she had choices and could accept herself, the good, the bad, and the ugly and recognize that she did not have to please eveybody to be loved and accepted. In doing so the fog was dissolved and she has been grateful and remarkably healthy ever since- just under five years now. Today she truly feels she was blessed by grace in overcoming a lifetime of hiding her pain and fooling everybody, including herself, and convincing them she was so together and successful when inside she felt like she was shit. Now she accepts herself for who she is, no longer tries to control every situation to protect herself, and indeed IS that together and successful person we all believed her to be. I have high hopes from what you have written that your story will likewise ultimately have a good outcome!

@ jjct

You're right... I am healing as time is going by. As for her, I realize that she will have a lot of work to do. A lot. Her mind is a total mess, it will take a lot of time for her to clean that. I am really working on myself right now by keeping calm and listening to her. When she asked for help, she said that one of her problems is that she had no boundaries (She wanted to please everybody, couldn't say no, etc.), and that she had problem recognizing and expressing her feelings. Between her IC, I think I could help her by listening to her and pointing out things to her when she's not listening to herself or putting boundaries. But it is tricky, as she have to find those thing by herself as time go by... Thank you!

@ ming56

I totally understand what you're saying about your investigations. Right now, I'm checking her mails, phone calls, internet history multiple times per day. And as you say, it seems like a ritual. As for me, I feel safe in my home, it is my workplace that don't feel safe. She saw the other men while they were at work, so I guess this is were it is coming from. I told her again this weekend that she had to change her job, and give a deadline about this.

About breaking the cycle, the words are coming from her, not her IC. She see's all the destruction she's causing and don't want the kids to live through the same situation. I believe you that the second year will be tougher. Last night she said she couldn't see when it will ends, she even don't know where to begins.

We had another talk last night. She said that she believes she wants to be with other mens, so she will choose mens with lots of problems, and that it will boost her esteem. She says that this way, she'll fill like they'll be happy with her as they will be so happy such a woman care for them. I find this so weird and fucked up. You want to hook up with someone better than you, so you can be a better person, right? But for her, right now, it is not the case. She's still in the fog I guess.

I also think that she does not accept herself as a whole, and this is why she has two life. The good one, and the bad one. Reading you gives me hope that if she don't stop her work on herself, she will see her as a successful person we all see, so she won't try to see other mens in order to feel better, but will realize all that she has.

Thank you again for your kind words folks!

Greengiant,

After reading all of your posts: I firmly believe - Your WW must leave her current job and find a new job; if your marriage is going to successfully reconcile.

My opinion: Your WW lacks true, sincere remorse...and she plays "word games" regarding her feelings toward OM; and she is still "MENTALLY" and perhaps emotionally involved in this affair with OM.

I suspect: Your WW is not being totally truthful with her IC, either - especially regarding her "dark feelings" about harming herself.

YOU cannot FIX these issues...and Your WW's IC needs to be informed about her thoughts and talk about harming herself, in my opinion.

If I was in your position:

A major requirement of ME remaining in this marriage would be: Having this woman immediately leave this current job. There must be complete NO CONTACT with OM...if there's to be any chance of reconciliation.

In my opinion: You're being "played."

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh -- but that's how I see things for all of your posts.

Good luck...I wish you the best, because that's what you deserve.

My thoughts are similar to Dare2Trust's thoughts. I think you need to insist, as part of R, that your WW sign a disclosure agreement with her IC so you can speak to her IC and her IC can speak to you. Some of the things you say she says her IC says just aren't ringing true for me. Speaking from personal experience, one thing that many WS's have in common is telling lies about what happens in IC.

Another update!

Reading all your posts made me think a lot about my wife jobs. What she was saying one week ago :

1 - The OM is nothing to me, just a COW.

2 - I am searching for a job, but I'm not finding anything.

So I had numerous talk with her. First, told her that she can't say he's just a COW, they had sex together. If we divorce, how will she call me? Her ex friend, or her ex-husband? It made her think, and two day's ago she said that she's starting to see that he is a COW, but also an ex-OM... I think she was I denial of what happened, and that slowly she is seeing that things will never be the same, and that she have choices to make...

About her job, I told her numerous time that she had to change her job. Yesterday, she met her boss and he told her about her objectives for the next year. When we were at home, she was complaining about her objectives and how she was not happy with them. I looked at her, and said "Why do you care, you won't be there in one year". She looked at me and said : "Why would I leave?". My jaw dropped, and I just said "You should know, see me when you figure out...". So 2 hours later, she came to me saying that she knew that I wanted her to leave, she was looking for a job and would "eventually" leave when she would found something else that would suit her.

So I said that this was not an option. I was already patient by allowing her for not leaving right now, and I wouldn't live all my life with anxiety of knowing that they were working in the same building. So she asked me if I would made the choice to leave her if she would keep that job, if I made a choice of her job or the family.

I said that I haven't made that choice, she made it herself several months ago when she fu**** her COW numerous time. I know she have problems, and working on them, but I won't live with stress and anxiety. I also asked her how many contacts she made to new employers. Turned out it was zero... I said that we needed a deadline, otherwise one day or another they would work together again, and maybe temptation would be there...

She thought again, and came back to me saying that she had to look harder for a new job. She said that she would update her resume, and start looking elsewhere for jobs and keep me updated.

She can't leave her job immediately as it would put us in a hard position (finance). I also know that it won't be easy for her to find a new job as she has a really specialized kind of job. However,I made it clear that the only way I could accept her staying there, would be that the OM would leave himself. So she know that she have to leave...

We will go over this again this weekend, I really want this to be crystal clear and draw a line about what I won't accept.