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OMG! I am so sorry that you and your children had to go through this. There has to be a very "special" place in hell for people like him.

I think you know you can "never" tell your children the truth, it would devastate them, but I see your dilemma, you don't want to lie, but there is no way you can tell the truth.

All I can offer is {{hugs}}

Nature Girl, your ex and my father could be the same man. I thank God for your children's sake that you are nothing like my mother who stayed with him until after I graduated from high school. I don't know how old your children are, but my mother has a picture that I drew of my father being struck by lightning. I was 8. My sisters and I talk pretty regularly about our life growing up and have very few memories of our childhood, so I think you are right that your children have blocked a lot of this out. Not all of it. The other thing we used to do is fantasize that we had a "normal" family. We would ask our parents questions about our heritage or what it was like when we were babies, hoping to have something nice to hold on to that was different from our horrible day to day existence. My father used to just lie to us. I remember once asking him if he knew any foreign languages because a friend of mine was taking lessons and I wanted to know a foreign language too. He just made up words, and sat there and watched while I committed them to memory, and let me go around telling people I knew German.

You can be absolutely sure your ex will say horrible things to your children. Mine told me he was pretty sure I wasn't his; and this was during one of our "good" talks where he wasn't angry at me. He is also going to cause your children long-term psychologic trauma with his NPD manipulation. Does he have unsupervised contact with them? Is this something you can push for?

As for what to say to your children. There is no way to say to them that their dad wasn't interested in taking part that will not lead to them feeling unlovable. And they will get enough of that from him directly, as you have already surmised. However, I don't think romanticizing his involvement is a good idea either, as it will make the reality of their situation that much more difficult to understand. My mother used to give us false hope that she was about to leave my father, even showing us houses she was looking at, only to justify staying later. It would destroy us every time.

Anyway, I don't mean to T/J your thread with my anecdotes. I just read your story and it resonated with me so much. Your children are EXTRAORDINARILY LUCKY to have you as their mother. I know how difficult it was for you to change yourself enough to leave, most wouldn't be that strong. My mother is totally incapable of that level of introspection.

I can't speak to what your children's existence WILL be like, but I can speak to the Hell you saved them from. We kids knew my dad was crazy and could for the most part protect ourselves (angry was easy, the harder were the "heart to hearts" he would want to have where he would trick us into disclosing things he could use as ammunition later); much harder to get over was the knowledge that our mother didn't love us enough to protect us from him That took decades and LOTS of therapy to work through. It was that feeling of being unlovable that caused me the most harm, and that came from HER.

So that is my very long-winded not really on topic reply to your question I just wanted to you take heart that by loving your children enough to leave, and taking the time and energy to ask these difficult questions, and by taking them to therapy, you are giving them a tremendous gift. They really are lucky to have you.

NG, the first thing I think after I read all of that is, why did you have two more children with this man?!?! He was watching porn and *masturbating* which holding your daughter. That is a serious, jaw dropping, WHAT THE &%*#!!!! Why? I have no read all of the replies yet, so forgive me if you've already answered, but I can't imagine having two more children after I was abused like that!! And not only were you abused, your children essentially were! I can understand if you were being a submissive wife and he was telling you he wanted more, but if he never wanted them, why?

As for what to tell your children? Nothing. Please never tell them any of that. Ever! Tell them dad loves you. Dad was busy a lot when you were younger or dad wasn't sure how to take care of little babies so mom did most of it. Please never burden them with those stories. I can tell you my mom told me of one incident involving my father when I was younger and it still haunts me. I mean, it hurts me a lot and there is absolutely ZERO benefit in me ever having to know what she told me.

First, NG, I am so sorry - huge hugs to you and I echo what the others said re: you being amazingly strong and that your children are so lucky to have you for their mom.

t/j:

I would like to address thenon's comment, though:

thenon- this is a place of support and I don't feel like you are giving NG this in the first part of your post. Unless you have had NG's exact FOO issues and walked in her shoes, you have no right to question why she stayed with him. Many people stay with abusers for very complex reasons and many do not ever leave their abusers. It is not your place to question. It is in the past and there is nothing she can do to change that, so pointing it out is not going to help in any way. The fact is that despite her horrific abuse, she WAS able to climb out of her abusive-beyond-words marriage and leave the mother-fucker. She is incredibly strong and deserves our support and advice, NOT questioning why she didn't leave him sooner.

end t/j

Yes, this forum is a place of support. But almost every forum on SI is dedicated to self-introspection. There are plenty of threads throughout SI where members are asked tough Qs. Sometimes the delivery of the Q isn't always a soft one. But Qs sometimes get us to reflect on what decisions we have made or have yet to make. This reflection can hopefully spare us from making the same mistakes.

NG does not have to answer any Qs that she does not want to. Nor does she have to consider any posts or parts of posts that she feels are non-supportive.

In any case - thenon-goddess - NG did explain her reasons for staying in one of her posts in this thread.

Just to clear up any misconceptions, the day I saw him masturbating while holding one of my babies was the last day I allowed him to do anything with the babies for a couple of years. I took the baby out of HIS arms, called him a few names, and that was that. He did not change another diaper, wash a baby-related item, or put them down for a nap or bedtime. He did not take them for walks, didn't read stories to them, didn't get up in the middle of the night. No pedi visits, no playdates, nothing. I did it all. Every bit.

During this time I contacted my parents to beg them for help. They flat-out told me I could not possibly make it on my own with three young children. By that point my ex had fully triangulated them against me, they had no idea what was actually going on, and every time I tried to tell them they didn't hear me. You cannot possibly imagine what it is like to be victimized in this way, to have your entire support structure right down to your parents taken away & poisoned against you. So when I called my parents to beg for help, they refused and told me to resubmit myself to my husband and pray to God.

Some of the questions in this thread posed to me are pretty harsh, but I understand why they are being asked. Some is the instinctive "victim blaming" that goes on in our country. You hear about it all the time, like when rape victims are accused of asking for it because they had a drink or danced with the guy. Women who stay with abusers are also blamed. I know this because I used to do it myself. I saw women who stayed in an abusive situation and I sneered at them. I couldn't imagine how anyone could be so stupid and helpless. Then one day I realized I'd become the thing I despised. And I was trapped. I finally understand how it could happen, how an intelligent person could end up a victim.

This kind of abuse is insidious. You just don't realize it's happening. Especially if you were raised as I was, raise to be a people-pleaser, raised to idolize marriage and never get divorced, raised to deny oneself for the good of everyone else.

So yes, some of the questions here are extremely harsh. Luckily I've been to years of IC and have gone over these exact same questions in great detail. Otherwise, these questions would destroy me utterly. As it is, I'll answer as much as I can, but people need to understand that they CAN NOT understand fully, not to the extent that they feel satisfied with the answers.

As a society we need to understand abuse. We don't tolerate bullying anymore at school or the workplace. I think its time to stop tolerating it in marriages.

You know NG I've dealt with some horrific things, nothing on the scale of what you have but in the position of being the child who was molested, abused and taught not to trust her instincts. I'm so grateful that your children have you. I have no doubt in my mind that you will love them, guide them and protect them as much as possible with every fiber of your being. I've also seen just how far you've come and where you're headed. Do not let anything said here by anyone take that away from you. You escaped. You are doing the hard work to help guide your precious kids through this hell with their father. You are seeking support and guidance to keep them as safe, yet grounded in reality as possible. I admire you. You're an amazing mother.

Now back to your original question. I don't think there's a great way to tell the kids when they ask, and they will ask. I think trying to accurately answer situational questions with a "no, honey, I did that for you" will help to a certain extent, but at some point, you're going to have to explain the masturbating incident, as well as the porn and other sick stuff, so that your children are hyper vigilant and understand the level of awareness they will need. I don't know at what age that would be appropriate or how to do it. Perhaps starting off generally with, you know your body is your own, and no one should see you naked but a dr. No one should show you their own or someone else's private body parts. And progress from there over the years.

As far as Daddy (God, I hate typing that word in relation to your devil spawn x) not wanting the kids, I'd explain it with generic, some people are not meant to be parents, they only have the capability to love themselves. When they try to love others it hurts the others more than it is good for them. If you say that in regards to comments about "daddy" they will draw the connection themselves, I would follow it up with, how much you as their mom are amazed with them and completely cherish each wonderful and not so wonderful moment you get with them. They will draw the connection that you love them unconditionally.

Now, one last thing... No one has any right to isolate you from loved ones or even general society. And no one has the right to make you feel bad for the choices you've had to make to survive the hell of abuse you have.

NG, I was also codependent to an NPD (among other things) man who also poisoned friends and family against me. Leaving was one of the hardest things I've ever done.

I can't imagine how difficult it must have been to leave a person like that with children.

You really are a very strong and inspirational woman.

(((naturegirl)))

IMO his not wanting kids was not the reason for the extreme abuse, his extremely abusive nature was the reason for the extreme abuse.

I felt breathless just reading this.

I didn't want kids either. I know the sad clown will tell the girls this one day and it kills me.

I don't know what I'd do in your situation. I don't think I'd ever volunteer this particular piece of information but I do think I would answer honestly if/when they ask when they are adults.

I would tell them about the extreme abuse before/during/after your pregnancies.

This kind of stuff messes with your sense of self. Truth or not. I don't see what they could gain from knowing it. What insight it would give them that the rest of his behaviour wouldn't already give them.

They will see him one day, NG. The challenge here is to not have them see themselves differently once they see him.

My own father was an extremely abusive POS. He OD'd when I was 17.

I had told my little sister that one of the reasons I didn't want children is I couldn't bear for any of them to resemble him in any way.

Because my sister and I look so different we always assumed she was from a different father. We started asking my mum pointy questions and were about to do a DNA test when she came clean.

At 25 I found out he wasn't my biological father, but he was my sisters. I was beyond delighted with this news. My joy was indescribable. Then I saw my sisters face - I thought she was upset because she had wished to meet her real bio father (we left him when she was 3 - she didn't know him).

Instead she reminded me of what I had said to her about my future children resembling him. She was beyond hurt and it changed how she felt about herself. I regret that remark to this day - as true as it was.

Sorry for the long post. I can't believe that this is something you have to think about but I know that you do. I wish he would fall off the face of the earth. I was reborn free the day my 'father' died.

First Love Gone, I did see after that she answered, however I could not get back in to the forum to edit. Something is going on with my home server and once I come here, if I click away (or maybe it times out?) I can't get back in. I get "weblage cannot be displayed" or else I would have edited.

NG, I most certainly am not being a victim blamer, I was trying to understand "why". I will leave it at that, as I understand this is an incredibly delicate subject to talk about and I don't want to contribute to any more of your stress over the past.

[This message edited by thenon-goddess at 5:35 AM, February 24th (Monday)]

NG, I was hurrying to get my daughter ready for school earlier, but I do want to add, I am so glad you and your kids are out of that situation now. I have not followed your story from the very beginning, so I don't know what the catalyst was, but whatever it was, good for you for leaving! I'm very glad you are able to look back and see the abuse for what it was now!

Please, don't....Dont tell them he never wanted them. Please.

My father DID.NOT want a second child. It got to the point that my mom said she was having another with or without him.

I know that my dad loves me, he loves me more then his own life, and I know this....but it still makes me feel like...well i am so glad you wanted me AFTER i was born.

It stings to know this.

Okay, I will again state that I do not intend to tell my kids that their father did not want them. I am confident that their father will tell them this all on his own because he is a mean, cruel person. He'll save that tidbit for when my kids are at their most vulnerable, and then he'll deliver that coup de grace to destroy them. That's just how he rolls.

I am seeking input on how to answer the children's questions regarding their father's involvement in their early childhood when their father actually was NOT involved. He actively & deliberately sabotaged me during their early childhood. He was a danger to them. So far I've given the standard, "I don't know" and "He was busy" answers so many times I don't think they're credible any more.

There must be a way of giving the children information so they grow up with a healthy self-esteem, but also not outright lying to them about the truth of their lives and my life. The truth is their father is an evil, mentally deranged person who is not safe. He's the kind of person who, when he found out his cousin who he'd grown up with had an auto accident and was killed, he laughed and said it served him right. He laughed for years afterwards every time the subject came up, calling his dead cousin every name in the book. I must not allow my children to grow up with no tools & awareness to deal with such evil. I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.

I must not allow my children to grow up with no tools & awareness to deal with such evil. I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.

NatureG,

I struggle with the same questions. Mine is not yours, but he's dangerous and evil in his own ways. My youngest is no longer a minor, so I think I will escape parental alienation accusations at this point. That threat was certainly levied at me in the past, even though I have kept his dirty secrets. I can't help you to know what to do but I do understand the dilemma. Our goal is for the children to be able to protect themselves.

As far as why abused women don't leave any sooner, all I can say is, it's not a matter of intelligence. We just can't see it. I saw the same thing in my domestic abuse support group. Almost every woman there at some point questioned whether they were being abused, all the while the rest of us were saying, "No! Don't question that!" after we heard their stories.

It does sneak up slowly. But looking back, I can still remember the night as a newlywed when my X came home and started screaming at me for what was on the television. He was yelling inappropriate things for a long time. I thought to myself, "Gee, he must have been triggered by that movie. He must've had a real bad experience growing up." It never crossed my mind to say, "what the f**k are you yelling at ME for?" And what did I do instead? I modified my behavior because I didn't want him to yell at me again. I worked very hard to never make him angry.

It does sneak up slowly. But looking back, I can still remember the night as a newlywed when my X came home and started screaming at me for what was on the television. He was yelling inappropriate things for a long time. I thought to myself, "Gee, he must have been triggered by that movie. He must've had a real bad experience growing up." It never crossed my mind to say, "what the f**k are you yelling at ME for?" And what did I do instead? I modified my behavior because I didn't want him to yell at me again. I worked very hard to never make him angry.

I fell into the same trap. He would act out, and instead of fearlessly confronting him & demanding better, I decided to "improve myself" and make whatever modifications I needed to myself so he wouldn't have a reason to get mad at me (or the kids) again. I knew he was in the wrong, but I thought I could love him out of it. I thought I was obligated to love him out of it and stick with him for better or worse. My entire life eventually revolved around not making him angry. Yet at the time it all made sense.

(((N_G)))

YOU are an amazing strong, awesome, fierce woman, who should be awed at your ability to get out.

You are right that kind of abuse is insidious, and often the abusee does not even realize the amount of pain, and detriment the abuser has caused.

Next to address your questions and concerns. I think while your kids are young, you should be age appropriate, but somewhat honest. Dad wasn't around much, he wasn't that interested in being daddy when he couldn't really play and interact with you (I had this conversation with my kids about their one Gpa, because he just didn't do babies, andcouldn't really deal with them until they were in about 3rd grade). They will figure out the rest of his issues as they grow, esp with mom being so strong, and demanding the respect she deserves.

They may not remember the terror filled nights and I think that will probably be ok, but I would talk with the family therapist about this. When they are young adults though, I mean like 15-16-17, it is important for them to understand what really happened, as they are going forward into relationships, the tendency to be like mom, or be submissive my be strong, and you certainly want to help them to never get involved in a like relationship.

You are Awesome, and I think you can help a lot of other people in the future, see the cycle of abuse, and that there is a way out.

(((and strength)))

I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.

(((NG)))

You don't sugar coat and evade. I still believe this (me, in my previous post):

But IMHO, IMHE, what kids want to know when they ask about their early childhood, is confirmation that they were securely loved, they had a purpose/role, and they can always hope and know they belong to a family they are loved.

So that would work like this:

Child: "Did Dad change my diapers at night when I was a baby?"

You: <laughing> "I think I could count the numbers of diapers he changed for all of you on one hand. Diapers were not his thing. But speaking of diapers, do you know what YOU did once you could walk? You could get out of any diaper I put you in. I tried duct tape, putting sleepers on backwards, everything and you still streaked around naked every chance you got! You were our little Houdini! To this day I can't figure out what you will wiggle your way out of next!"

So you

1) answered honestly and non-threateningly.

2) provided an example they were securely loved.

3) showed they had a purpose and role in your family even as a baby.

4) gave them hope for their future in this family unit.

5) gave them a specific memory for them to cherish.

At their current ages, I think this is appropriate and what they really want and need anyway. When they start asking more specific, harder questions as they get older (especially if you think they are trying to verify false stories HE has provided), if I were you, I would address those with the IC present. That way, it is handled appropriately AND you have proof you were not trying to alienate him, KWIM? AND you are giving them the skills and tools to deal with the evil down the road with professional guidance.

Bless you NG. You are my hero!

I don't know how to continue to defer answering pointed, direct questions from the kids about their dad. I don't know how much to sugar-coat and evade.

(((NG)))

You don't sugar coat and evade. I still believe this (me, in my previous post):

But IMHO, IMHE, what kids want to know when they ask about their early childhood, is confirmation that they were securely loved, they had a purpose/role, and they can always hope and know they belong to a family they are loved.

So that would work like this:

Child: "Did Dad change my diapers at night when I was a baby?"

You: <laughing> "I think I could count the numbers of diapers he changed for all of you on one hand. Diapers were not his thing. But speaking of diapers, do you know what YOU did once you could walk? You could get out of any diaper I put you in. I tried duct tape, putting sleepers on backwards, everything and you still streaked around naked every chance you got! You were our little Houdini! To this day I can't figure out what you will wiggle your way out of next!"

So you

1) answered honestly and non-threateningly.

2) provided an example they were securely loved.

3) showed they had a purpose and role in your family even as a baby.

4) gave them hope for their future in this family unit.

5) gave them a specific memory for them to cherish.

At their current ages, I think this is appropriate and what they really want and need anyway. When they start asking more specific, harder questions as they get older (especially if you think they are trying to verify false stories HE has provided), if I were you, I would address those with the IC present. That way, it is handled appropriately AND you have proof you were not trying to alienate him, KWIM? AND you are giving them the skills and tools to deal with the evil down the road with professional guidance.

Bless you NG. You are my hero!

I misunderstood the question.

Don't be surprised if he tells them YOU didn't want kids. I doubt he will tell them he didn't. That would cut off his ego, supply no? I could see him doing it if they stopped feeding his ego but right now and for a long time they won't be the mark, you are.

The sad clown had zero to do with the girls for the first year or two of their lives. He was 'working' pretty much 18 hours a day and watching TV or sleeping the rest of the time.

Unfortunately all of the photos are of him with them - my attempt to get proof of what a great dad he was in my self gaslighting expeditions. Hardly any photos of me. I haven't kept any of him but when I think of them and when I look at the photos of me with them I can still remember the pleading it took to get him to pose or take a photo. There is one particularly gorgeous one where my first baby and I are laying on a blanket on the grass and beaming at the camera. I walked straight inside after that photo and cried - he was so mean about taking one single photo.

My girls have asked for stories of when they were babies. All of the stories are me and them. I was shocked when they asked "what did daddy do?" and I said "your dad was at work" then more questions.

The gist of it was that I stayed home and looked after them when they were little little babies and I did most of the care. He gave them baths a few nights a week. He did the shopping because I didn't drive back then. In a way I don't want them to know how little he had to do with them. I won't make shit up but I still don't want them to know.

Its different for me because they spend half of their lives with him now. They can see exactly what he does - plonks them in front of the TV whilst he diddles on his computer or diddles his whore i.e.: 'working'. I won't need to tell them he has parenting ADD because they can see it.

In years to come I expect they'll do what I did and tell themselves he's so gosh darn busy and feel bad for imposing their needs on him. This makes me sad and mad.

I think for now you focus on what YOU did, how involved YOU were. Kids want to hear about themselves - maybe they are looking for new stories about themselves rather than insight into their fathers parenting. If pushed I don't know that it would be bad to say "he wasn't really that involved" and "I don't know why" when they ask you why.

Lack of involvement is not uncommon. I had one father of 3 tell me he didn't have anything to do with his kids until they were 2. He seemed proud of this. I felt for his kids and his wife.

I'm so sorry NG. What you went through was horrific. I too had a man who didn't want children. He wanted me to abort the first time, and the 2nd time too but being a Christian, I was totally against it. It's a tough situation to handle especially with children being so innocent and asking questions. I blame myself for having children with a man so messed up. I don't have much advise but just wanted to show understanding and support.