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N_G you have already been given the advice I would have given so not going to repeat what others have already said.

But (((Nature_Girl & Kids)))

BTDT, just make sure you and the kids get the counseling and therapy you all need to continue healing!

Holy fuck, NG! I've referred to many wayward husbands on here as arseholes - enough to make the title totally insignificant for what he's done. He's a fucking monster. You should be very proud of the strength it took for you to first, live through that, and second, divorce him. I'm so sorry for all the suffering you've gone through.

I know you want to be honest, and I would defer to whatever the family counsellor says, of course. However, I would seriously consider never telling them this. Letting them know that one of their parents just didn't want them may open up a whole new pile of issues for them. But of course, I'm NOT any kind of counsellor.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the fact that your ex is walking around on this earth with a normal-person mask on scares the ever loving shit out of me.

I've never been one to wish death on anyone (minus my stepmother), but I think we'd all have to get together to throw you a party if he were to die.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... the fact that your ex is walking around on this earth with a normal-person mask on scares the ever loving shit out of me.

I've never been one to wish death on anyone (minus my stepmother), but I think we'd all have to get together to throw you a party if he were to die.

^^ this!!

I read your post and I am just sickened by how evil and perverted this creature is...... (I can't even call him a man)

Keep loving those babies of yours--

(((NG)))

You are such a strong, amazing person.

No advice, just wanted to add from personal experience that learning your father denied you or didn't want you does stay with a child for life.

There is no unhearing it once it is said.

Thank you all for your opinions. I think you all now understand even more why I tried so hard to get sole custody of my children and why I've worried so much about them when they are with him. Besides the fact that he's a pervert who likes little girls, besides the fact that he acted out sexually with the children and was grooming them for later molestation, his complete sangfroid about them to begin with is frightening.

My kids are already seeing through the cracks in his mask.

Don't worry, I won't be telling them the devastating news that their father wanted them dead. I'm afraid they'll come to that conclusion all on their own. What troubles me is that I already have to somewhat prevaricate when they directly ask me about his involvement when they were infants. My "go to" answers so far have been along the lines of "I don't know" and "Daddy was really busy".

What else troubles me is that I can see him some day, in a fit of anger and an attempt to hurt them (because that's what he does), he'll tell them himself how he wishes he wasn't a father. He loves to say super cruel, hurtful things, the kind of things that yes, you cannot ever unhear and hurt forever. I do not sit around and dwell on all this, but now that my many-years long crisis of getting divorced is over, my attention sometimes turns in this direction.

I'm going to get slaughtered but I'll share my opinion.

If the kids are already showing signs of whitewashing their terrifying experiences, then no matter how gently you let them know about his feelings of not wanting them; they will more than likely end up resenting you fiercely.

I'm saying this from a perspective of a child raised in a dysfunctional household. A child might tend to have emotional sympathy towards the parent that is more mentally deranged. They will give them more of a pass on things in part because how responsible are crazy people for being crazy + kids will cling to ways in order to keep the love of the less stable person.

But when it comes to the sane parent....well that is a different kettle of fish. You knew that he didn't want children, how he acted with them and how he was in general, yet you kept on having sex with him, getting pregnant and staying instead of fleeing into the night (with baby) after the first experience. You brought them into this and kept them there. From a child's perspective (especially once they reach teen years), why the h*ck did you not cut and run before even having the first kid. Unless this man was absolutely perfectly wondrous before pregnancy and did a Mr. Hyde as soon as you got pregnant, then you are going to be held completely responsible for choosing him as a father for your future children. In their eyes you might be as heinous for bringing them into this situation and watching (even if you fought back) instead of leaving, maybe even more heinous because you are the sane one.

Yeah, I could go on with a fiercer and fiercer reaction to each situation point by point, but I think I made the point.

I only slightly made this point to my own mother for her decisions, but a lot of it fell on deaf ears with layers upon layers of justifications shored up (as if laying in wait from her first bad decision.)

As an adult woman now, I sympathize and root for you.

But if we are talking about children's perspectives, well, it's just different.

Talk to their counselor and see what the best type of responses are for you to give them.

I'd be much more worried about teaching them how to protect themselves mentally from toxic people rather then informing them of a past that they had no control of. Maybe when they are much older.

[This message edited by MCGar at 2:59 PM, February 21st (Friday)]

Lie to them. as you already know. "Sweetie, it's been so long, I just don't remember..."

Since I have no experience at all in dealing with this type of depravity and evil, I felt I had nothing to offer.

But reading MCGar's post did touch upon something I was feeling as well. I too, wonder if the children will resent you for bringing them into this world with a monster who did not want them and for not leaving him sooner.

I think you can do as others suggested in shielding them from the blunt truth about how their father didn't want them. There are ways to do that as others have suggested. But I also think you will have to face your own culpability in this situation as your kids get older. They may demand answers from you regarding your choices.

I wish you all the best NG. You are one strong woman.

MCGar, you've misunderstood. I'm not asking how to tell my kids their dad wanted them dead. I'm wondering how to navigate the waters in which there are devastating mines. There are no truthful, complete answers to their questions which aren't devastating. I'm wondering do I continue to evade and just not be open to those questions, or what. Are kids satisfied with partial answers?

I honestly think he'll be the one to tell them about his death wish for them because it will hurt them in whatever moment they're in. He is a master at choosing his words to be the most vicious & hurtful possible. I'll have to pick up the pieces.

ETA: I am prepared to discuss why I stayed with him and why I chose to have children with him. I know why now, I understand. It isn't something most people can understand unless they, too, have endured it.

[This message edited by Nature_Girl at 3:14 PM, February 21st (Friday)]

I just have one question and I'll try to be gentle....

If you knew your ex-husband didn't want children and he had voiced his opinion, why did you insist on having children with him? Though you could have never predicted his behavior as a result, he told you he didn't want children but you sort of forced it onto him anyway.

I don't mean to sound rude or overbearing, I guess I just want to know (on a macro level) why. This is something I grapple with sometimes too.

It isn't something most people can understand unless they, too, have endured it.

NG- ^^this is me. I have read the words, can visualize you in that hall of hell, feel the fear from just your words, BUT I cannot, and will not, say I understand. That would just be a lie.

You, my dear lady, have got to be one of the strongest, and bravest women on this planet!!

I do agree that, at one point in their lives, that POS will tell them about not wanting them. To hurt, and destroy them, but for no other reason.

Will they blame you in the future? Who knows. They could, also, go the other way and come to see how wonderful, and amazing, a Mom you are. To go thru hell, and come out on the other side, while protecting them too.

Sending you my most heartfelt hugs.

PS: stronger: can some of us girls join in the bashing of this cretin??

He told me that he DID want kids! I was so dysfunctional and desperate, I wanted to believe him even though my heart knew the terrible truth. He would go back & forth, telling me he didn't, then telling me he did. Telling me he hated them, telling me he would try to grow to tolerate them. I was by that point completely beaten & defeated through the years of abuse. I kept telling myself that if the kids could just get old enough that they could give HIM some ego kibbles, he would start to have feelings of affection for them. Which is exactly how it worked out. The more they were cute, the more they garnered him positive attention from outsiders, the more they could provide him with ego kibbles, the more he would consent to do with them.

Make no mistake, I am deeply aware of my culpability in all this. I know I should never have married him, nor should I ever have had children with him. I know this now. However, at the time I was deeply misled as to what my duties were as a Christian woman and wife. I idolized marriage and was a willing martyr on the alter of it. I thought I was being Christ-like in allowing myself to be abused & diminished to the point of ruining my health. I thought I was redeeming him from his evil ways by continuing to love him and tolerate him no matter how abusive he became. I foolishly kept telling myself that a point would come in which he would finally "get it", he would see the light, he would see this beautiful family he already had, and we would live happily ever after.

This, my friends, is the nightmare that is codependency with a NPD. It's a soul-killing trap. Now that I'm out of it I look back and can't stand what I see. It's painful, it's horrifying, it's humiliating, it's humbling. I let my good intentions lead me and the kids to Hell. It's why I am still in IC after almost three years. I'm not like that anymore, but I still need reinforcement from my IC as I continue to heal and get stronger.

I am not proud of myself for having endured all that. It was not strength that kept me going. It was dysfunction & weakness that kept me there and God's grace that kept me alive until I finally woke the hell up and reclaimed my life.

((((NG)))) Please don't ever say you weren't strong. You survived. Abuse is soul-destroying. The abuser knows how to build you up just to take delight in bashing you back down.

As a health care practitioner I have had some education on identifying abuse (I'm a LMT) and who to report suspected child abuse to. That being said it is nearly impossible to identify a monster that wears a human mask. Until you are caught in the trap, they do not show themselves.

Please know I admire your tenacity and strength!! (((NG & kids)))

NG,

Is there any chance he's filling their heads with this stuff? My husband's in therapy and it's ridiculous how much his parents rewrote history. I mean it's like his childhood is split in two. What *really* happened, and the stories his parents, and now siblings tell. I also kick myself for not trusting my gut because when I first met his family something seemed off. Like what he told me and what I was seeing did not add up. I should have trusted my gut because the things I have learned about them is beyond disturbing and aligns more with my first reaction to spending time with them.

Also, my IC and I have discussed many times - you watch the news and you see countless stories about the monsters that are living amongst us. Rapists, pedophiles, murderers - yet we never want to believe they are the people we know. You've been through enough, no need to beat yourself up anymore.

You're one of the reasons I look in this forum, to see how you're doing. I hate your husband with every bone in my body and also hope a bus hits him - or that he ends up in a real world deliverance situation - which I think would be more fitting ;-)

Stay strong.

ETA: if I told the people in my in-laws community what they really were, no one would believe me. They too wear the human mask.

[This message edited by cliffside at 4:30 PM, February 21st (Friday)]

NG, what a sad, terrible story. Heartbreaking. I’m so sorry for you.

Regarding the kids – do what you need to do, but don’t be the one to tell them any of this. You’re their mom. Your job is to make them happy, self assured, secure and stable. Being told ‘Daddy didn’t want you to live’ will do the exact opposite. I know, you aren’t asking how to tell them that their father is a monster, but the topic here is what to say. I vote ‘nothing’. Let them be kids. If they think they remember him being wonderful, then let them have that memory. It’s not hurting them, and it’s making them feel loved.

If anything, find ways to warn them about their father’s temper, his mouth that loves to hurt people, and his NPD ways. Prepare them to be cut to the core by him one day, but do not shatter their belief that they are loved by all, and wanted by all. That would be the hardest cut they’d ever take.

As far as him preparing them for molestation – I’m not certain what that means, but it scares the crap out of me. How could any judge give this guy custody, in any form, even for a half hour a week?

I know what you mean about having to live through something to understand it. I’m not judging you at all. In fact, good for you for getting out. That can be the hardest of all, in certain situations.

NG, I am always in awe of you. (((hugs)))

I think you know to a degree, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. It just comes with the territory, especially when you have three kids. You can't tailor your reaction to be ideal for all three of them all the time.

I have found with my own kids, when they ask questions they aren't ready to hear the real answer to, deflection is always the best first defense. They want to know they are securely loved - and you can tell them about memories you had of them as babies being loved by you and others. They want a to have sense of purpose, that they were wanted and have a role to play in your family (the "smart" one, the "curious" one, the one that always wanted to be in charge, etc.) so you relay stories that highlight their personality and how they fit in your family puzzle. They want a sense of hope, that they can always count on being loved and part of the family, so you keep telling them how much they will always be loved and part of this family.

Yes, as they get older, they may get more persistent and ask more pointed questions. And yes, truth in age-appropriate doses are important. IC guidance of course is important. But IMHO, IMHE, what kids want to know when they ask about their early childhood, is confirmation that they were securely loved, they had a purpose/role, and they can always hope and know they belong to a family they are loved. Kids going through or involved in a tenacious divorce are no difference, they just may need it more because they need more confirmation due to other things going on in their life that make them doubt.

Hang in there NG. This too shall pass.

(((NG and Naturekiddos)))

I hate this piece of shit.

That post nearly made me physically ill. I am so happy that you are out of that hellish misery.

A simple, "I don't remember" shall suffice. And continue to work with the children's IC because you know when they stop feeding him ego kibbles, when they start to assert their own autonomy, he will begin crushing them.

Hopefully his lifestyle will bring on an early death.

Edited to correct a really strange spelling mistake

[This message edited by tesla at 12:47 PM, February 22nd (Saturday)]

[This message edited by badd at 2:03 AM, February 23rd (Sunday)]

Having been raised in a home where I didn't feel wanted by my dad, along with alcoholism, infidelity, domestic violence and an NPD mother, I know a bit about what your children face, only they have a sane, balanced and loving mom - they have a safe place so long as you keep their mental emotional safety in mind as you raise them and you're doing that right now in asking these questions.

I also raised my son in a home where bipolar flair ups with his father occurred sometimes. I had to do some preventive educating, some of which helped but some was completely ineffective - I get to see how I did now that DS is in college.

From the perspective of your children:

They already know or sense how much their father wants or doesn't want them. They want his approval. They may be thinking that if they're just obedient enough, he'll love them. They may get caught in that horrible trap. That's the trap I got caught in - thinking that if I just kept the house clean, or did the things my dad was screaming at my mom about not doing, then he'd stop yelling, stop drinking and be the kind of dad my friends had. Talk about overcompensating. My mom was not equipped to recognize what I was doing, or how horrible my life was, or how much I was personalizing what was going on in my home. The world revolved around her experience and so she was clueless and didn't care to get a clue just because I was in pain.

And where your X has the proclivity for little girls and children are sexualized to him, there is a greater danger than I had growing up. Talk with a therapist about neutralizing this trap for your children. Age-appropriate knowledge about mental illness and perversion is important for them to learn so they can protect themselves since the courts won't...yet.

As a parent - what I did right:

1. Was a safe place for DS to talk, cry, complain, etc. without undermining his father's place in his life. We went for a lot of drives to get him a space away from volatility and toxic emotions when his father was having a manic episode. I learned and practiced listening with validation.

2. I would ask him for his ideas and solutions. My natural tendency is problem solving, which DS hated. He wanted to be heard, not told what to do.

3. Taught my son early and often to recognize the difference between cause and effect (his behavior/natural and logical consequences) and other people's issues.

What I wish I had done more of or differently:

1. Paid more attention when he didn't want to talk. I would let him come to me because I didn't want to push and process him all the time.

2. Paid more attention to self-abuse cues. No matter how hard you tell a child it's not their fault and they didn't do anything wrong to have their father behave badly, they have their own beliefs anyway. I would have intercepted those cues and got him working with a counselor a lot sooner.

3. Paid more attention to developing his own goals and dreams. DS is a pleaser, but very strong willed. I would have nurtured that strong will a lot more and taken advantage of the pleaser a lot less.

4. No tickling. I loved to hear him laugh. I craved it. He already felt bullied and pushed around by his dad, especially during manic phases. If I had a do-over, I'd have made sure my own behavior was much safer - though I tried hard to be a safe place for DS, I missed a few very important cues.