SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Mrs Doubtfire, sorry to offend you! My wording was too black and white. Of course there are many long timers who still come here and post for a variety of reasons. I guess I meant it in a more general sense, there are fewer members that are years out and I *hope* that one reason is that they have moved on with their lives. Not that I think people who have R'd should move on (away from SI) but just recognizing that most likely many will.

I'm on another forum that deals with a birth defect that one of my kids has... I find that the majority of members have tiny babies, or older kids that the treatment didn't work for. This can be very discouraging to the newbies as it appears that most kids do not have successful treatment. In reality, the majority of parents with kids whose treatment went well don't stick around in the group.

I'm so grateful that in both if these forums there are people willing to stay and share their knowledge and struggles and inspiration long past when it is purely for their own benefit.

Sorry if this is a t/j, but I had to add my 2 (probably worthless) cents here:

Morhurt: As in, only the sad and hurting ones come back to check in, the happy ones have forgotten all about SI. At least that's what my self talk says to calm me down.

I understand that you are saying this to calm yourself down. If it helps you that is fine.

I, on the other hand, find it reassuring when I see the Vets check back in and give us "newbies" much needed advice. Especially, the veteran WSs giving me, a new BS, their insight.

When I first joined, I had the mindset of "once a cheater, always a cheater" and I could not even look at the Wayward Side. After a few weeks, I found myself reading their forum. Now, I read the WS forum more than any other. The veteran WSs give me hope that my WS (who is FINALLY doing the necessary work) will not be a repeat offender.

Now on to the real topic:

Chicho: I observed and experienced that for R to work both partners need to work independently and together on all three:

1. WS healing

2. BS healing

3. M healing

I agree that all three things are needed for R to work.

I also think that those who say they are in R too soon are rug sweeping. My WH and I are only 3 months out from DDay. I don't consider us even close to beginning R. We are both in IC, MC, AA, Al-anon and reading up a storm. He wants to R, I don't know if I can love him again. We are both doing the work on ourselves. Still, there are some days I feel that I will never get off this roller coaster.

I refuse to consider R, until he shows me that he will:

1. Consistently work on his sobriety

2. Consistently work on his FOO issues;

3. Consistently works on our M;

4. Consistently works on finding his "whys" for the A; and

5. Consistently work on the damage he caused me by his A.

cantaccept: Both parties have to give 100%

The bs has to work on themselves, constantly, examine the role you played in the marriage. Not saying by any means that is contributed to the a!!! Just how it can be improved, deepen intimacy (not just sex!) Rebuild yourself, rebuild that self love, respect for yourself. Discover in yourself what you need to feel safe and willing to expose your heart again.

And this, too. I, as the BS, need to do my work before considering R. I feel this includes:

1. Find out who I am...not just Mom, Wife, Spouse of a Drunk, Betrayed Spouse, etc.;

2. Find the root of why I allowed my WH treat me horribly and why I stayed with him;

3. I need to own my part in the M; and

4. I need to deal with my own FOO issues.

As I said, I will not even consider R, until we both are consistently working on our healing. I will do my work and quietly observe him. That is the only way I believe a true R will happen for us.

(sorry for the long reply)

This is the t/j-iest thread ever! So I am going to do it, too.

I believe I posted the post this week that inspired this concerned paraphrase:

Wow, people are actually talking themselves into staying with their spouses and are throwing out all kinds of excuses including: affairs are quite common and we shouldn't be surprised they happen.

Which is not the spirit in which I was saying that - as an excuse? No. To clarify, my point was that we as BSes feel so victimized by what happened, and it feels very personal.

My point was in the bigger picture, we are part of a statistically largish club, and for me (and perhaps it is because of my religious leanings) it is healthier to see myself as part of a larger human condition which includes suffering, rather than just being a victim. It helps me to realize that while I never wanted to be in this position, I am not alone.

And this:

I predict those are the people we'll see back here in 3 years not happy. Or maybe they'll be the people who are great. No idea

I am thinking it is best to save our "predictive powers" for our own relationships.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 10:14 AM, February 27th (Thursday)]

Wert....loved your response on the whole deal-breaker concept.

Took me months to realize my old M died upon my wifes choices to commit and continue adultery....took me months more to ACCEPT that.

I particularly liked your cloud reference.....that pleasant and unpleasant occurrences happen in the presence of clouds.....but all CAN be good and "rain" is not to be feared. Unfortunately, adultery is like the "hurricanes" of rain events....and our spouse moved our marriage into areas where hurricanes happen....and this move happened unbeknownst to us. Common for a BS to think they are in still in the midwest...that the wind and rain that just blew was a tornado that came really close to our M (our own fog to deny a hurricane was possible given the location of our M pre-A).

Once we realize what just happened, the extent to which our marital home was destroyed......we have to decide if we want to rebuild in this part of the country.

Kicker is......I am just not sure their is anywhere that is hurricane-proof for a M.....think it more of a fantasy I had pre-A....that my WIFE had pre-A. We were wrong.

Offering and accepting R is us choosing to rebuild that home.

"Learning to R" (a Sisooon term) is us learning how to build a marital house that will be better prepared to withstand hurricane force stress's into the future.....with both of us fully accepting that real dangers and real struggles lie ahead....there is no moving back to "just tornado's"....we must courageously accept that we BOTH must work hard to build a structure that protects and nurtures a storm-hardened marital house.

NOTE: Storm-HARDENED....not Storm-PROOF. Big difference.

God be with us all.

sort of a t/j

When I posted this last night I wasn't talking about us. In reality we are in the best place we have been in this shit storm.

That's awesome!! Glad to hear it.

I have suffered from seasonal depression for years, in the winter everything is tainted with a little more pessimism.

Join the club. This winter has sucked!

I have learned that the roller coaster is inevitable. That reality of all of this is never as good as the highs seem and never as bad as the lows seem. Everything is exaggerated. There has been much more clarity lately, its more like a kiddie coaster.

It's nice when you can look back and see you've changed rides from the Thrill Ride of Terror to the Little Dipper.

As in, only the sad and hurting ones come back to check in, the happy ones have forgotten all about SI.

I'm here now primarily out of habit and I've made friends here. I no longer need SI as a life-line. I've turned that corner. In some ways it's holding me back now. And that is not in any way a dig at the site. I would have been lost without it and I know we would have been divorced. It's natural for people to exit, but it's nice when the veterans stop back in to check on everyone.

I also like seeing how other couples are doing who came along after I did, like Chicho and Broevil. Even though we haven't met in person, I wish all the best for them both.

Chicho - There have been quite a few returning members lately that have found themselves in unsatisfied or unsuccessful R. I am sorry that you are hurting. But it makes me selfishly wonder.

I actually concur with Chicho’s assessment. In the past two months, it seems to me (based on recollection, not a statistical analysis) that a lot of posts in the R forum would seem to be more appropriately posted in General.

Maybe the observation is merely a reaction to my hope that R is for those couples who are fighting for R with their hearts and souls and so, while some ups and downs might be expected, heavy duty venting would be the exception and not the norm. It just seems to me that in recent weeks, there was a heavy flood of non-R posts.

I know that the R forum description say “A place to share your struggles, success stories and triggers while trying to reconcile” but it seems to me that recently, it’s been more about the struggles than anything else. I guess I could go back into the posts to pull examples if need be to illustrate this but on a personal note, it just seems that there is a lot of problems in the R forum lately.

It could be that, as suggested, some JFO members are jumping too quickly to the R forum when in reality, they only have some optimism and wishful thinking to back up their desire to be in R. After all, if the WS is not moving forward in self-healing and supportive of the BS, then it reality, it’s too early for anyone to be talking of R. Foggy WS’s are not in R and R is not a solo act. You can’t have the BS in R if the damn WS isn’t.

BS’s who are stuck between throwing the WS to the curb and filing for divorce are not fully in R either. I know R is a journey and not a destination but you can’t have a foot in the Divorce forum, one foot in the Venting forum and then be all in the R forum. And this doesn’t only apply to the BS, it applies as much, if not more, to the WS too.

Trust me, I know that R is not linear. It was only last Christmas when LF confessed that she had been thinking that perhaps D was the better solution. Sometimes, even after years in R, one or the other marriage partners can be reconsidering their initial decision to keep the marriage alive. Sometimes, 10 or twenty years passes before someone decides that it was a deal breaker and that’s okay. Like Wert said, not everyone has the mental flexibility to incorporate the A into their live and come out better for it. Sometimes it takes time to reach that decision.

Bu let’s be honest, if daily, weekly and monthly, there is continued conflict, demon dialogues, pissing contests and defensive and abusive behaviours, then can you really claim your in R?

And (opening myself up big time here), in my opinion, anyone who makes the conscious decision to merely stay in the marriage because of the kids or anything like that, I don’t consider them fully in R either.

R is a conscious decide to reconcile, rebuilt and renew a marriage. It’s not a resting place until you get your finances in order or the kids grow up.

I know R is not a guarantee for happiness. I know that people change their minds but at least if you claim that you’re in R, really truly give it a chance, don’t just fake it.

HUFI

There is nothing worse then when R is false, when a WS has done everything you have asked and yet return to "WS" behavior years later. That for any BS can be crushing and finally the end.

However I do think there are many BS's out of fear or conflict avoidence who won't take a hard stand and get exactly everything they should get when asked from a WS. They are too scared to ask for full transparency, they are too scared to ask for a poly, they are too scared to ask for a NC letter, they are too scared to lose what they perceive they have. So they accept so little to keep what they think they have. Yet they are letting the person who "robbed" them of their safety and happiness to now call the shots, and how can you feel safe when you never know when the next bomb is going to drop?

And I agree that too many say they are in "R" yet are no where in that catagory. They so hope or want it, the WS starts being "nice" and doing a load of laundry or cooking a meal and all of a sudden the BS thinks they are in R. Its hard I know, its sad as well to see how little someone will accept.

But I will say if a BS has a WS who does everything they ask and then are lying behind their back? Not much you can do about that. R does take 2 people.

HUFI-PUFI:

BS’s who are stuck between throwing the WS to the curb and filing for divorce are not fully in R either. I know R is a journey and not a destination but you can’t have a foot in the Divorce forum, one foot in the Venting forum and then be all in the R forum.

But let’s be honest, if daily, weekly and monthly, there is continued conflict, demon dialogues, pissing contests and defensive and abusive behaviours, then can you really claim your in R?

This is why I have not even considered R. I told my WH, that for now I am committed to working on our marriage, but I am not ready to commit to staying married. Once I see he is being consistent in his recovery, then I will make a decision regarding R. Either way, I feel that both of us working on the M and ourselves will benefit our children. Regardless if I decide to stay married to my WH, we will be co-parenting for the rest of our lives.

Which leads me to this:

And (opening myself up big time here), in my opinion, anyone who makes the conscious decision to merely stay in the marriage because of the kids or anything like that, I don’t consider them fully in R either.

I disagree (respectfully and only to an extent) with your opinion. I am currently staying only for my children. For now. Not due to finances or so I can get my D paperwork together. Mainly, I do not want to make a rash decision based on my current emotions (majority of it anger,despair, and rage) and not give my WH a chance to make amends and prove he can be a sober, honest, and caring husband and father.

I am looking at the long road, not the easy path. Trust me. It would be much easier to pack up and leave, but how fair is that to my children? I know that the WH did not think about how his A would affect our children, but I have thought about it almost as much as how it affected me.

Which leads me to where I do agree with you. If I stayed only for the children, in the long run, that would be unfair and unhealthy for all of us. That would not be a true R. The kids are what are keeping me here, but only for now, while he proves to me he is willing to do the work. And most importantly, to give myself an honest chance to do my part in my own healing.

Not sure if that makes any sense? It sounded so much better in my head.

There is so much rich discussion in this thread! Looking across all of these posts, there are many comments that all point to having a "growth mindset" (a person can grow and change) instead of a "fixed mindset" (you are who you are). The growth mindset seems to be an important key in what enables successful R.

For the WS, this means having the willingness and ability to thoughtfully examine themselves in the quest to address issues that led to the A, etc.

For the BS, this means examining they role they played - even in the midst of all the very real pain - in contributing to a marriage not reaching its fullest potential.

For the M, I think a growth orientation is when the two partners can focus - as karmahappens put it so well - on working hard to get to "where we can go."

Wert's post captured another aspect of what I think a growth mindset means:

Adjusting my view of M, love and what they mean

That's all about opening oneself up to the idea that your understanding of what marriage and love mean not only can change over time, but it almost must change...as each of the partners in that relationship grow as individuals and the relationship matures.

Even the discussion about what unites all of us who stay on SI when others disappear makes me wonder. Could it be that those of us who are here over time are the ones that are most invested in learning and growth? And this is a great place to gain insight?

I wonder if there is a fundamental mindset required on the part of WS and BS that enables successful R, and that either because of one's hard-wiring or as a result of having suffered so much pain, some people just can't get there. When I have moments of despair in our journey to R, they are always triggered by the fear that my H is "fixed" in the sense that he won't be able to grow with me and our marriage (what if he can't grow past old, bad habits? what if he won't invest in making the personal changes he needs to make? what if....).

silentscream13 - I told my WH, that for now I am committed to working on our marriage, but I am not ready to commit to staying married. Once I see he is being consistent in his recovery, then I will make a decision regarding R. ... I do not want to make a rash decision based on my current emotions (majority of it anger,despair, and rage) and not give my WH a chance to make amends and prove he can be a sober, honest, and caring husband and father... The kids are what are keeping me here, but only for now, while he proves to me he is willing to do the work. And most importantly, to give myself an honest chance to do my part in my own healing.... Not sure if that makes any sense?

You very eloquently illustrated my thoughts on the matter. I fully understand not making rash decisions, after all, I am only here because LF didn't make some immediate and irrevocable decisions after some of my stupid acts and statements. I know that the decision to rip apart families is never a easy one. I know the feeling of being torn between two paths and having to make hard choices and difficult decisions.

I think that your approach is what every WS dreams of. A chance regain themselves and prove themselves once again in the marriage. Obviously, there are a lot of WS who fail in this. And sometimes, more rarely, they are not given the chance because the BS can not or will not give the gift of R. Sometimes the "can't" happens because of multiple stab wounds so to speak. Too much pain, too much hurt for the BS to ever consider R. I understand that. If I was a BS and my spouse did to me what some WS's inflict on their spouses, well, the solution would be more akin to homicide than divorce and I'm not utter convinced that if the tables were turned, if I would have been so gracious as LF was.

I think that R has to be earned by the WS. I also think the commitment to R isn't something that you can put on the matrimonial table today and remove tomorrow. I think TIME is a critical factor in R and therefore, the decision to R should be a deliberate and conscious one. Not something that is taken away on the spur of the moment or when you hit a speed bump today on whether or not red wine should be served with chocolate cake or not. LOL

HUFI

What a great thread. Thank you for your insight! Thank you for answering some questions that I have had floating in my head, and Thank you for making my feelings realized.

I am reading a book called "Mistakes Were Made -- But Not by Me" which echoes this sentiment regarding fixed vs growth roles:

There is so much rich discussion in this thread! Looking across all of these posts, there are many comments that all point to having a "growth mindset" (a person can grow and change) instead of a "fixed mindset" (you are who you are). The growth mindset seems to be an important key in what enables successful R.

One of the biggest predictors of whether a marriage will fail or not is if the partners have a fixed mindset about themselves ("That is just the way I am") rather than a more flexible one. Just thought that was interesting. . .

I, myself, just try to be variable enough to be somewhat confusing, and perhaps a little entertaining.

But, it actually reminds me of the victim/perp discussion we were having the other day as well.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 2:36 PM, February 27th (Thursday)]

When things are more stable, apathy and procrastination set in until the pain returns. I am just as guilty of this as broevil so I am not pointing fingers. This is a dangerous pattern especially if it is progressive.

Thank you for putting this to words. I was not able to put my finger on this before. Needs further review.

It's funny that the longer I'm in this process, the less I feel I know. I am really loathe to give advice lately -- who the hell am *I* to do so? Part of this is out of depression (geez, my life is so wildly fucked up, why would I think I have anything helpful to say?), but it's also due to unmooring of certainties that this infidelity thing does to us. I think part of this has to do with that open mindset -- that anything can happen, that both WH and I can change and adapt to this -- and the nearly paralyzing fear that I'm totally wrong about this and I'm going to get screwed again. I really wish I could let go of that fear. it's a real risk to believe that my WH is capable of this kind of growth, that things may get better. Rationally, I'm 99% sure my WH won't cheat again, and I've seen a huge amount of change. In terms of what's reasonable to ask from a WS -- he's done it, he's doing it. He's pretty much the remorseful spouse that most of the people here dream of. I'm so -- ahem -- lucky? But the big question is, when is this going to make me start feeling safe? When can I start believing in him again?

The last thing I want to do is to jinx this by posting on here how "well" things are going and, given my state of radical uncertainty, there's no way I'm going to pretend to give advice on how to R. But things are going well. I'm far from happy, but I'm fairly calm and able to get on with life, enjoy stuff, enjoy my kids. I'm hoping one day happy will happen. I'm hoping one day my heart will follow my mind. I wish I knew how to get there. I just keep trudging along, hoping things will get better...

there are many comments that all point to having a "growth mindset" (a person can grow and change) instead of a "fixed mindset" (you are who you are).

OMG, my boss is here... (Arnold - I agree with everything you said but he talks about this ALL the time - funny to see it mentioned here! )

but really, this has been one of the most thoughtful threads and I'm printing it all off to read again and again!

I think Hufi said it....but I've been reading a lot of stuff that is in the Reconciliation forum that probably should be in General. It's not egregious enough that it needs to be moved after-the-fact, it just seems out of place.

I sometimes wonder if some of the newer people post in Reconciliation...I don't know....because that's what they want to believe that's where they are? Kind of similar to how a great many people talk about "2-5 Years" but then are surprised when they're struggling 3 years in?

When I first joined, I remember WAL saying that he didn't fully commit to R'ing until he was like 3 years removed from DDAY, and the longer I'm on SI, the more it seems like that really should be around the norm. Before the couple commits to R'ing, I think they should probably have enough time between them and DDAY for everyone involved to relax into their normal routines and mindsets, so that not only does the BS have the emotional distance with which to make a decision, but it gives the WS plenty of time (and rope) to either fuck up or buck up.

ETA: I don't think there is anything wrong with 'just staying for the kids'. It's perfectly acceptable, it's just not reconciliation. That being said, I don't think a great many BS are comfortable telling our WS after DDAY that we're "just staying for the kids" because we're afraid that we're going to scare the WS off.

I include myself in that group. My reasons, initially, were:

1. To be near my son.

2. To not let AP "win".

3. To not let my WW "win" (whatever that means), because she tried to talk me into divorce like 3 times during the affair. All for reasons related to *my* failures. Not once since, though. *Now* I'm perfect. Funny how that works.

There're a lot of flaws in those reasons, but I think they illustrate where many BS heads are at immediately after DDAY.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 3:58 PM, February 27th, 2014 (Thursday)]

R broke down after I felt I was not getting the truthful answers to my questions. I got ridiculous answers to legitimate questions. And I got too many of the I dont know and I dont remember answers.

I got hints of answers and tiny partial truths. And then I stopped asking, but never stopped the need to know.

All I asked for was the truth to factual type questions. I already understood the why completely and I explained the why to my WW that I did at least understand the why.

FacePunched: That being said, I don't think a great many BS are comfortable telling our WS after DDAY that we're "just staying for the kids" because we're afraid that we're going to scare the WS off.

I was definitely NOT in this camp. My first thought was to kick him out, pack my kids up and return home. I actually told him to leave, then calm logic set in. I told him to sit his ass down, because we had plans with our children that evening and he was not backing out on his children due to his own stupidity.

I told him the following day, that if I stayed right now, it would only be for the kids. When he scheduled an MC appointment for the day after DDay, I told him I would go only because we needed to go to MC to learn to communicate for our children's sake. He said that if I only stayed for the children in the beginning that was enough because it gave him a chance to prove himself to me.

I won't lie. He did an awful job in the beginning. But, I will give him credit, he is finally doing the work. I think it finally clicked that this is his only shot and he needs to get it right.

Now, as I stated in my post above, I am observing. I am deciding if R is what I truly want. I honestly think it will take me a long while to decide if I want to R or not. Meanwhile, it gives us both a chance to heal ourselves and work on our M.

HUFI-PUFI: I think that R has to be earned by the WS. I also think the commitment to R isn't something that you can put on the matrimonial table today and remove tomorrow. I think TIME is a critical factor in R and therefore, the decision to R should be a deliberate and conscious one. Not something that is taken away on the spur of the moment or when you hit a speed bump today on whether or not red wine should be served with chocolate cake or not. LOL

I absolutely agree 100%.

Not jumping into R also gives my WH and I both time to work on ourselves, so that we will be healthy enough to even attempt the heavy-lifting in R. Otherwise, I feel that we would easily return to our positions as Professional Rugsweepers.

As I told my WH, I don't want to merely be happy. I am tired of surviving life. I am done pretending we have a lovely marriage.

I want to be content. I want to live. I want a real marriage, one that is messy, chaotic, crazy, honest, and totally fulfilling.

I won't settle for less anymore and that is why I am waiting to make the decision to R.

I agree that R is a decision that shouldn't be entered into lightly and should be attempted only if the WS is all in, both with words and with actions, but...

Our ideology is that As happen because of problems in the M, and the most likely BS responses are some combo of:

1) anger

2) 'Oh, shit! What did I do to cause this?'

3) 'But I love my WS, and I don't want to lose her/him.'

4) 'What do I do now? I'm so scared I'm going to hold onto what I have with all my might'

5) 'How do I win her back?'

6) Etc., etc., etc..

It seems relatively easy to kick the WS out or to think it's the BS's job to win the WS back. I think it's a pretty rare BS who can immediately come up with the strength needed to make demands of a WS that are conducive to R.

I mean, you need to have a lot of self-respect and composure to demand the WS come clean, go NC, do IC & MC, etc., and self-respect takes such giant hits on D-Day.

So I think it's natural - and always has been - for BSes to think they're in R on D-Day or shortly thereafter, even though their WSes have shown no remorse.

I'm OK with posts in R that could be in General.

People mistake their status. People declare victory prematurely. I can't even say I'm OK with that, because there's nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it. These mistakes just are going to happen.

At the same time, this does seem like a weird period. When I started, I looked especially at the struggles over R, because I didn't want to get my hopes up, but now is the first time I've think I've seen a bunch of posts from folks with long ago D-Days who are still unhappy.

Maybe the warmest January on record + polar vortex + Canada's hockey gold metal + the unhappy Rs + the devolution of language due to Twitter + all the other crap that's happening really are all adding up to the true decline of civilization......