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Well I was informed yesterday, with the help from H getting the dictionary out that we are NOT in R.

Apparently to be in R we must be working together, which I stupidly thought we were.

Yes, I was bitterly upset yesterday and spent hours in tears then I got angry and some of his crazy justifications so he took his ring of and ended it.

All because I asked how, if he hated her wearing low cut tops at work cos he hated her waving he chest around, thought it was inappropriate, was it then ok for him to put his hand down her top in the office. Two totally separate things apparently. It was just bravado. He was disgusted by her breasts and the way she flaunted them but it was a different story when she offered him the chance to put his hand down there.

I pointed out that if a man was waving his bits around and I didn't like it I wouldn't then put my hand down his pants. He said it was totally different. He did it to impress her, but he didn't want her of course.

He claims he took no notice of her body yet he was able to tell me she usually had her breasts pushed up under her chin, but they must have been saggy really cos other days they were low down. That sometimes they were globes and other sloping. Hmmmm, so he didn't notice her body... yeah, right. Apparently he didn't see her that way, wonder why he took so much notice then. Then he claims he is not a breast man, never has been. I guess I got it wrong all these years we have been together and every time I wear a low cut top he can't stop looking and touching. He seems to forget I know him. According to him he couldn't help seeing her breasts. Funny that, I am quite capable of talking to a woman without noticing her chest every time. He says you can't help noticing when they are out on display and that when she was covered up he only noticed because he was glad they weren't out. Took quite a bit of interest in them in seems to me and it wasn't that big a turn off if he took the chance to stick his hand down there. But apparently that was ok cos that day they weren't pushed up, that he wouldn't have done it if they were. What difference does that make!

So much of what he says is contradictory and some is plain ludicrous. He just can't admit to the obvious.

Then we got onto the whole 'wanting' her thing. Of course he insists he didn't. No, he just chased her, saw her as a challenge, a prize. He wanted to get her, not have her, so that means he didn't want her. Even though nothing else mattered to him than getting her. He wanted her to fawn all over him but even when she did he wanted more and more. BUt no, he didn't want her, even though in reality he was fawning all over her. No wonder she thought he wanted sex. HE gave off all the signs.

He disagrees that you don't have to want someone to chase them to get them to want you.

That kissing someone doesn't mean you want them. That kissing them again to impress them and give them a chance to respond doesn't mean you want them

FFS he wanted her to want him, he chased her, he did everything he could to get her but no, of course he didn't want her.

I don't get how you can take everything offered, chase more, forget everything else in your life for someone you don't want.

To me it's simple. He wanted her to want him. He was attracted to her as a whole package, loved her attitude and her looks were good enough. He was obsessed with getting her and did everything he could to make sure he did. You don't go after someone you don't want. His actions show he did want her. Maybe not to leave me for but certainly for an affair. He didn't care about me or his job or anything except getting her. So I don't see how he can say he didn't want her. Makes no sense to me.

He hid her from me. He sent hundreds of texts. He put his hand down her top to retrieve his lighter in the office, he kissed her twice. Apparently then he woke up and didn't want the sex that followed a couple of days later. He took it though.

So, I dared to get upset and angry and he ended it.

Maybe he is right, doesn't look like we are in R and of course that's all my fault for not believing him.

He has thrown the last year of hard work back in my face.

apparently me being doubtful, asking questions, crying and getting upset at his crazy rationalisations means I am not trying hard enough.

Maybe he is right. We aren't in R, so I will b moving back to general. Seems I am stuck and the failure is my fault so I am just going to step back now.

He has made his feelings plain.

[This message edited by olwen at 5:29 AM, April 13th (Sunday)]

(((olwen))) Words. They mean different things to different people. My WS told both women he loved them "madly". One"saved his life"??? And now......He tells me if he had loved them, he would be with them. They just don't get it. They can be such fools. (understatement here, irony). Hang in there.

[This message edited by devasted30 at 5:43 AM, April 13th (Sunday)]

Yes..two people are supposed to work at R. But not when one of them is still lying and minimizing..and your WH is doing so in spades.

He took his ring off? That makes my blood boil. I understand a wayward hurts too...yup...but a wayward who is remorseful and wants to R with his wife? Nope. Taking off his ring symbolizes he is done..and excuse me..but didn't he already walk away from this marriage once (literally or figuratively) when he had an affair?

"He wanted her to want him. He was attracted to her as a whole package, loved her attitude and her looks were good enough. He was obsessed with getting her and did everything he could to make sure he did. You don't go after someone you don't want. His actions show he did want her. Maybe not to leave me for but certainly for an affair. He didn't care about me or his job or anything except getting her. "

^^ That is a moment of clarity. That is what many of us have said all along about him. He chased her because he wanted too....he didn't have any problem with her breast being on display...he enjoyed it. He wanted her. He may be ashamed to admit it, considering who she is, but he wanted her. Until he admits the truth and stops minimizing, of course you're not going to feel safe. He wanted to impress her??? WHY?? If she is such a deplorable human being, why did he want to impress her? Why did he want to flirt with her?

I was hoping his posting on the wayward forum would help...but I see that each time they call him on his bullshit and tell him to get honest with you..so after the original post, he runs off and doesn't return to that thread...and his posts are all about how to get you over this..not how to fix his issues.

That's the problem. He just wants you to get over it. He doesn't think he has a problem at all...except a wife who refuses to believe his bullshit.

No olwen. You haven't been in R...but it's not for lack of trying on your part...it's his refusal to be honest.

(((olwen)))

I don't understand why it's so hard for him to admit the obvious. I have given him enough leeway by believing he didn't want the sex, even though it doesn't explain why he would sit in that bloody car park with her if he didn't, so maybe I don't even believe that.

I do believe he probably didn't enjoy the sex cos it wasn't repeated and he has been so graphic as to why he didn't enjoy it.

I am not sure what to believe there. His story about suddenly being faced with the reality of his actions does have a ring of truth to it but it doesn't explain why he stayed in the car with her for so long before anything happened. I think he wanted her to make a move but didn't expect her to jump straight to sex with no preamble and that was what put him off. It really wasn't very sexy from what he says.

I honestly believe he wanted her til he got her.

The stuff before the sex is so obvious.

He doesn't understand why it's so important for me to have the truth. As he said the other day if I cheated he wouldn't want the details. That makes me think he believes he is right holding stuff back from me.

I can't move forward like this. We aren't moving forward cos I know he isn't telling the truth deep down. I keep trying to accept it but I know what he is telling me isn't right.

Some days I can talk myself into believing it. Others it eats at me as a clear lie.

it drives me mad that he posts occasionally then runs from their responses and says he doesn't have time to post. He actually said it's all wrong and it's not right he is expected to take 'all this shit' from me. He crawled on the floor and said 'that's what you want from me isn't it' I was done at that moment.

He would rather end the marriage than be honest and that's my own fault for 1) making it so hard for him to tell me the truth and 2) wanting so badly to believe his version of events. They just don't make sense though when you look at the whole picture.

He is clinging to the fact that someone once posted they had admitted to things they didn't feel so he keeps saying he won't do that, won't admit anything that wasn't true.

Also because I have worked so hard to believe him and others have said his story makes sense that I am out of order for changing my mind.

I can't help it, so much sounds false. I can't get it out of my head cos it doesn't add up. I try and try to believe him but I just can't and I really think this it the end.

We are at a stalemate, he refuses to admit anything because I keep falling for his nonsense. I keep caving in cos I want us to work. He knows I cave in and believe him so he digs his heels in and sticks to his story.

Talking to him yesterday though all the holes in his story were glaringly obvious to me.

I can't do this anymore. I don't know what we are going to do. It will most likely be and in house separation for family and financial reasons. He will never back down. He is too stubborn so I have to face it's over. I need to find the strength to be friendly and keep a calm atmosphere for my son.

Even the dog was upset yesterday. I am done with all this

As for why he wanted to impress her, flirt with her etc, well 'at the time' she was the best thing since sliced bread. At least he is honest about that part. He had her on a pedestal and thought she was fantastic. Until she offered him sex apparently. Then he woke up to what she was like. Afterwards if you ask me, else why would he spend over an hour driving and sitting in the car park with her unless he wanted something to happen.

Apparently he could never say no to her in case she went in a mood with him. Couldn't resist more like and told himself he 'had' to. He says he could never say no cos then she wouldn't want him anymore. Not that he wanted to do the stuff.

I'm sorry I can't see 'friends' (as he claims they were after the kissing) sitting together like that for over an hour if he didn't want anything to happen.

He won't face that though and I have lost him through not believing him. Doesn't help everyone else in our families and friends tells me to just forget about it. To forgive him and be happy. Not so easy. Even he says 'look I had an affair, that's all that matters.' To me, the truth matters. I thought I had it but I was naïve.

[This message edited by olwen at 6:40 AM, April 13th (Sunday)]

I am in pieces if I am honest.

I keep trying to get him to talk to me but he is being so cold and says if I don't believe him then we are done.

I have two choices, believe him and live with the doubt all my life and he will stay and act remorseful as long as I don't question anything he says.

Or, stick to my guns and lose him. He really would throw away the marriage than sit and talk honestly with me.

I can't keep doing this. I have been physically ill since all this happened. I am no further on in healing myself or the marriage. I have spent the last year trying to believe his story and that's as far as I have got cos I just can't.

Looks like I have lost him. He can be such a good man when he wants to be but it looks like I don't really know him at all. Maybe I am in love with a lie.

I just want the pain to stop.

Don't let this man make you dance the limbo. That's all I'll say. He's a verbally abusive bully who has absolutely no compassion for the hurt, fear and anxiety he's inflicted on you. Don't stop at G - it's a place of pain and you really don't need any more of that. Go straight to S&D and also tell him to leave. Get a good lawyer and take some control of this situation.

In the most gentle of voices, he is not caring for you and has no intention of doing so. He is interested in his own self and actions. As long as you "believe" him the world is great, as soon as you do not, he is upset. He caused this...not you. You would not have as many questions if he had been honest to begin with. You are right on target with your questions.

Ultimately, you have to decide how you want to be treated the rest of your life. Do you want to be treated by someone that values you so little, that has cheated on you and refuses to take accountability and be honest with you? The cheating alone is so difficult to get over. However, the failure to take accountability and be honest for me are dealbreakers. You are NOT a failure, it is him. His actions, and his reactions.

Pull back and focus on yourself. Talk to a lawyer and determine what the laws in your state are. That knowledge gives you information and power to make the decisions you need to make. It doesn't mean you are going to file right now, but helps you to get a clear picture.

If after a year of showing your pain and trying to heal through this, he still doesn't get it...he is not going to get it. You have this to face the rest of your marriage to him.

I am sending you hugs and support.

It's so hard. I just want him to have enough love and respect for me to be honest. I just can't get over it knowing there are still lies.

I think you're right though. If he can't be honest after a year of seeing me fall apart every day then he never will.

Like I said it doesn't help friends and family are putting the pressure on me to forgive and move on.

After Dday I actually found a few texts on his phone from his mum telling him not to tell me, then another asking why he kept admitting to stuff and to keep quiet cos I can't handle the truth and don't need to know.

Then I have a friend telling me that of course he is lying through his teeth but that I should just decide to let it lie and move on for our son's sake.

Everyone wants me to bury my head in the sand cos they don't care enough to help me through this. They don't want me on their doorstep looking for help.

He has started saying SI is poison and I am not moving on because of the advice I am getting.

I honestly feel like I am losing my mind. Am I in some sort of twilight zone where suddenly I have to put up with this crap and lies should just be swallowed to save the family!

No one IRL cares if I get the truth. They all just want me to accept his rubbish and move on.

I really am very alone.

I won't rush to divorce yet for many reasons, although I know if I had any strength and self respect I would. Why shouldn't I move on? Why should I be stuck in this life but I am not in a place where I can do it and even though I can't see us getting past this I don't think marriage should be thrown away.

I am done with R unless he wakes up very soon but I won't jump to D either. We will probably settle into S because of the way our lives are.

I have many health problems and he is my carer. I have no one else. We have a mountain of debts. I am unable to work. It's all a mess. Our son has been so upset over the past year that I just want to hold on to the charade until he is doing better and I am strong enough to break free. I don't want to but he is showing me I have no choice.

I am living in hope he will wake up and be truthful. I know I am being stupid. I just can't give up hope he will change. I won't wait forever though.

At the moment my focus needs to be on my son, getting well and looking after myself. The rest can come later if it comes to it and it looks like it will.

I guess I am staying for our son, so I can have help to enable me to look after him and be there for him.

I want to be there for H too but he won't let me.

How can he go from being so loving and thoughtful and seeming so remorseful when I believe him to this cold hard man when I don't?

I thought he loved me. God I am pathetic.

I am breaking my heart and he doesn't care.

Where did my husband go? He may as well have stayed with her cos he is not with me in this.

All I have is SI.

I don't think I can do this. My suicidal feelings are back. I have no one except my son and I can't even look after him without help. I just want it all to stop and he doesn't give a damn unless I believe him.

Expecting your husband to love you..be honest with you..and respect you is.not.pathetic.

SI is not poison. A remorseful husband would want you to heal and get support. You asked how he can be loving one minute, then cold the next? Because he is not remorseful. He is regretful. HUGE difference. Remorse is, "OMG! Im so sorry. I will do anything you need to heal this marriage. I will tell you anything you need to know. I will get my ass into IC and face my issues. I will be here to help you heal."...and of course all of this has to be followed with actions. He is great with the words...but he is all talk, no action.

Regret is..."Im so sorry. Look, Im doing the dishes now and helping more around the house. But I don't want to talk about what I did. I don't want to answer your questions. Are you over this yet? Why aren't you over this? You want the truth? No, I can't give that because then I would have to face the consequences of my actions. Are you over it yet?"

Honestly? I think he knows damned well he can treat you like this and you won't leave. He knows he is the one who takes care of you because you have health issues. He knows you depend on him. He played along for a little while, thinking if he did so then after some time had passed this could be swept under the rug. Now that he realizes this really is a very long process, he is tired of pretending.

Taking of his ring was manipulative and cruel. he is basically blackmailing you...you can either STFU and get over it..or he is done. You can either believe him..this man who has lied over and liver and over..or he is done.

It's abusive.

Stop talking suicide. Just stop. I think most of us can understand why you feel this way..many of us have been there..me included. You have a son. You have a responsibility to him. He needs you. You are all he has..the only mom he will ever have. You must live for him..you must live for yourself....do not let the actions of a selfish man cause you to do something that will take you from your little boy forever.

You are not alone,olwen. You have SI. You have an army of people standing right next to you. WE care. We understand.

((((((olwen)))))))

My suicidal feelings are back.

Please seek help at the hospital that assisted after last year's attempt. Do it now!

(((olwen)))

Please seek help immediately.

You will get through this. You can do it.

Although he would have you believe your options are 1. believe him and live happily ever after (if a little bit in doubt) or 2. Don't believe him and he leaves....

THESE ARE NOT REAL options. Because he is the type of person that would force you to make that decision - there is no possibility of option 1.

You cannot live happily ever after with this piece of work, unless he does some major changing and unfortunately, it looks like he refuses to do the work to change.

I am so so sorry.

Please, call the hospital right now. You are worth it. You will make it. You will be happy again.

Just hang in there.

I am ok guys, thanks. Sorry about that I just had a weak moment.

I took myself off to bed for a bit and calmed myself down. I will be ok.

He has said we will talk. We will see what happens. I will update you tomorrow or later.

I asked him to take me to the psych ward and he asked me to talk to him first. Feel a bit silly now cos that spell in bed helped.

I am crap at self soothing but I guess that was what I needed. He did come up and lie next to me. He said he loved me and he is sorry and we will talk but he refuses to admit to things he didn't want or feel. I just asked him to be honest and explain things.

I am just sick of living with Jekyll and hyde. I'm the one with bipolar and he's worse than me! It's like he has a split personality.

I have the crisis team number if I get worse and can't calm myself. I would hate to use it but I will if I have to. I don't want to leave my boy if I have to go in but I don't want to leave him permanently either. IT's a horrible feeling. Like there is no way out and it makes me desperate.

At least he is willing to talk now. Will get ds to bed and try and thrash it out.

[This message edited by olwen at 12:09 PM, April 13th (Sunday)]

I won't rush to divorce yet for many reasons, although I know if I had any strength and self respect I would.

I'm stuck with a splint on my dominant hand for at least another 4.5 weeks, and I would hate to be without my caregiver. You need a lot more help than I do. Your sitch is very complex, and I don't see a fast D as necessarily the best solution for you. Be good to yourself - take as much time as you need to decide.

I do think your best bet is to learn to self-soothe more than you do now and to nurture yourself in general instead of beating yourself up. I know it's easier to prescribe changes in attitudes and beliefs than to make the changes, but it's worth the effort.

You have some special needs, sweetheart, but you're a full-fledged human being - lovable, loving, and capable, and that's the truth.

(((olwen)))

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:40 PM, April 13th (Sunday)]

Thank you so much for that Sisoon. That was such an empathic reply, it felt like a hug. I think you're right. I do need to work on myself. I was quite relieved that taking myself off to bed for a good cry helped. I need to find more ways to calm myself. I lose control otherwise and that's when my mind goes to dark places. It's like a panic attack, everything looms over me and suffocates me.

We are talking in bits and pieces and I have told him I won't take his temper anymore. I need to be more assertive but calmer too. I do blow my fuse and we set each other off but I only do it when my insecurity becomes unbearable (my problem) or when he starts denying stuff he has already admitted in the past (his problem). It screws with my head when I think I have the story and it makes sense then next time I ask him something it changes. I need consistency. I can't cope when he starts minimising, it confuses me and holds me back from understanding.

We will have a proper talk soon when ds in bed. I will come back and update but I do think whatever happens we aren't in R yet. Not the way he's been about this.

I am like a broken record aren't I? The amount of times I have posted the same stuff and I just keep going round in circles. I think I don't have the truth, then I think I do, then R is going great, then we have a big bust up, then the cycle starts again. I am tired of the merry go round let alone the roller coaster.

[This message edited by olwen at 1:08 PM, April 13th (Sunday)]

Oh, olwen. My heart just aches for you. You two are fighting over details and semantics at this point, it seems. For you, I still see you clinging to details in content as a way of looking for what he's not giving you. I did this, too when my WS was not being fully honest in disclosing her fears about the worst of her involvement. For her there were lots of reasons that included, but weren't limited to, fear of facing herself as she was, fear I would leave after seeing this part of her, fear of seeing the hurt in me and fear of my reaction.

In this particular disagreement, I stand by what I wrote in another thread. His interest in the chase or her was a way for him to get needs met that had little to do with wanting HER or being attracted to HER. His responses to her were more of an adaptation of his usual self in order to gain the affection or sexual attention from her that he felt he needed from someone other than you for whatever reasons he will hopefully uncover at some point in his own healing. I believe that he's not a boob man, but that the display of them represented the type of available person she was that contributed to his decision to pursue her. I also believe that he didn't necessarily "want" to touch them, but knew by doing it he would get his needs met. It's not about his attraction to her body, her intellect, her personality or her character, but what some of those things combined with opportunity let him believe he could get those needs met by her. This holds true for what he did in the car, too, assuming he is telling the truth, of course.

The problem is that he can't effectively communicate this stuff to you because he's still guarded with regard to his actions at the time and what he's willing to humbly, vulnerably, patiently and compassionately discuss with you as his teammate in reconciling in the M. He's not yet "there" with you. I know that this was what was happening with me and my WS when I was frantically analyzing and organizing to try and reconcile pieces of information that didn't make sense to me.

You mentioned in your profile that he was devastated and really regretful, which was most likely genuine. However, there has been no indication that he has explored "why" beyond opportunity. That's problematic, because many people are given opportunity and don't cheat. What is wrong with him that he needed that attention from that person at that time in such a way that was devastating and destructful and disgusting and not indicative of the respect and care that one should show with regard to the person they love and the commitment they made? That's where he needs to go next and share it with you in order for you to both work together in R. That's what you aren't getting. That's what he's not getting in order to realistically work on the boundaries he needs to create in the relationship. A person can't just say, "it will never happen again," without realizing how something they never thought they would do happened in the first place. And you can't rebuild trust without awareness of his process in this.

Ultimately, you aren't getting from him what you need to heal in the relationship, so you have some difficult decisions to make. While I agree that a quick divorce is premature, maybe a separation is necessary for both of you to explore and identify what happened and what is needed to move forward.

And sisson's response, like always, is thoughtful, compassionate and well-informed. Find ways to self-soothe. Right now his responses to your attempts to find some resolution and understanding are only hurting you more. I'm not sure how much more hurt you can take, but I got to a point where it wasn't worth it. I was worth more and deserved more, just as you are and do. Take time to find your own worth, know that you deserve someone who treats you as the most special and precious thing in life, and find that you can provide these things for yourself in an effort to heal without him if he chooses to not join you in this.

Hugs to you.

It sounds to me like your WH is/was addicted to the chase. And being chased. He got all kinds of warm fuzzies when he thought that he was sooo attractive and soooo desirable, when he was being pursued and wooed, and showered with attention. And then Ms Ego Kibbles wanted payment. She wanted her pound of flesh so she could get HER ego kibbles and all of the sudden, it wasn't unicorn-candy-corn fantasy, it was reality and it was messy and sordid, and yucky. Not at all like his fantasy. To his regret.

You'll note I said regret, not remorse. It seems to me that had she been willing to pursue him and tease him and continue feeding him ego kibbles, he would still be right in the middle of affair central. Because that seems to be what he was looking for. Just like an adolescent girl reading "Twilight" or some other erotic untouchable book.

So, what can you do, to focus solely on yourself, your health, and your child? What can you do, to detach, and re-gain your stability? Because that's the only responsibility you have right now. You owe him nothing. He owes you, but it seems like he wants to default on most of that loan, so how can you make adjustments to accept what help he owes you, and still be true to yourself? What can you do, in the next day, week, month, year, to start building the reality that you need in your life. Perhaps with him, if he ever walks out of his fantasy-fog, but more likely, without him? Detach, look at the steps that you need to take, and plan for it.

Speaking as one who said goodbye to the R forum too, because I was going to divorce my FWH, I have to say that doing the above gave me the strength to finally figure out what I wanted in my life and what I would not tolerate. In my case, my FWH bounced so hard from the reality of true unconcern, lawyers, and my future plans not including him, that he finally turned the corner into reality. BUT, and this is really important, had he not, I had my exit plan in place and I would be Just Fine Thank You Very Much right now had I walked down this path.

(((hugs))) No one deserves to live their life in fear and uncertainty. Especially not a wonderful person like you!

Thank you all for your great advice and support.

We talked last night and he went back to his earlier story, which I had accepted as likely truth before but the problems came him when he later minimised and rejected the truth. I think this is the truth.

He says he never likes it when women show their breasts that much, especially in the work place. He has a particular dislike for women pushing them up so high they look fake. So his objection to her display was 2 fold. He did however agree that it played a part in him going after her cos it showed she was interested in him. Then comes the double standard. He had a problem with that yet saw it as a completely separate thing when she challenged him to get his lighter out of his top. He said he never saw the hypocrisy but does now. That he thought it was wrong for her to dress like that but ok for him to do something so inappropriate. He said he obviously felt it was ok for him to cross the line but not for her to. With regard to knowing where her breasts were if he wasn't looking he said they were so obvious he couldn't miss them. So when they were up and bursting over her top he would look away cos it made him uncomfortable but when he noticed they weren't he did a double take cos they were so low down he was surprised. Said it was like how did they get from up high to down low like that. He did admit that he does look at other women's breasts in passing but he doesn't stare or lech at them. That sounded more honest to me.

Now when it came to putting his hand down her top to get his lighter back he still says it was bravado and acting the 'big man' but he also admitted it was the taboo of doing something forbidden, that he was flattered she was coming onto him so everything went out of the window regarding right and wrong.

The kissing. He finally admitted he wanted to do it and in the moment before the second kiss he was happy and thought 'yes, I got her!' He still maintains he didn't like kissing her and that at that moment he decided he didn't want anymore physical stuff.

So I asked him why he let her drive him round so long and sat in the car park with her if he didn't want anything to happen. He admitted he was flattered she had picked him up. That he wanted to spend the time with her. He thought she was acting weird but wanted to see what she wanted. When they pulled up in the car park he admits he sat there waiting to see what she was up to. That he wanted her to make a pass as she hadn't kissed him back so he didn't feel he had 'got' her after all. He has said all along he thought if she did anything he could stop it. He was lying to himself. He told himself he was ok to let her hit on him cos he wouldn't take her up on it. Fool. He sat there waiting for his validation. He didn't expect it to go as far as it did.

He was expecting and hand on his thigh, a kiss or flirting. He did not expect her to lift her skirt out of the blue. When she did he panicked and decided cos he had led her on he had to go through with it and the fact she was ok looking made it the easier decision. He realised he had asked for it. He believed if he didn't do it she would tell me what they had been doing and also he didn't want to reject or embarrass her cos it was all his fault. He decided the best thing was to do what she wanted then end the affair later. He thought I would never know and if he kept her happy he could handle things later. He was shocked by her actions and went off her when he realised how easy she was but as he had seen signs of her temper he felt trapped.

We have also had the whole 'wanting her' debate. He still disagrees cos he didn't want to be with her fully or to leave me. But he will admit he wanted to 'get' her.

Also the whole I wasn't attracted to her thing came up. He keeps saying he wasn't but when we talk he admits he was. Just that it wasn't a physical attraction so he refuses to say he was attracted to her. That really pushes my buttons cos he WAS attracted to her. He thought she was fantastic. He has once again admitted he was attracted to her as a whole but not for her looks specifically.

it is semantics but it's so frustrating when he admits stuff when we talk but whenever it comes up he goes straight back to saying he never wanted her and was never attracted to her. It's like he is denying the obvious and it pushes my buttons.

I told him that when he admits this stuff and then later denies it that it seriously messes with my head. He says it's cos he hates facing what he really did and why. That it was all a huge mind fuck. That he was using her and messing her around just to get that ego boost. That he is disgusted he went so far and betrayed me just to see if he could get the girl.

He says he was acting like an idiot, trying to show her he was a big man to impress her so she would want him. That everything else, including me, went out of the window when he was pursuing her.

As for our relationship I told him we are back at square one cos I don't trust him to always be honest with me, I don't trust him not to lose his temper. I Don't trust him to be there for me when I am in pieces. That I am just not sure of him so I am taking a step back to assess my options but also to give him a final chance to be straight with me, not to be so defensive and to be there for me properly. I will not be making myself vulnerable during this time. I will be staying back and watching what happens closely.

Someone asked if we had his why's for the affair and I think we do. In fact there are loads of them.

MLC, low self esteem, FOO issues, conflict avoidant with women other than me, my diagnosis and him feeling life was passing him by. Immaturity. Really it was as simple as a guy who never felt worth anything and thought he was ugly so he would flirt with women to see if they would flirt back. To see if anyone found him attractive besides me. That was as far as it ever went until he approached 40 and things came to a head and he started to go further. His mother had a large part to play as well. She was a repeat cheater and he had to cover for her with his dad as soon as he was old enough. She used to talk to him about her AP's. He thought that had made him immune to cheating as he had seen the damage it did. apparently not, but I believe that's quite common. Also there was no love in his house. HIs mum is a cold hearted women and his dad is distant. He could NEVER go to them with problems or worries. Also no one in his house ever stood up to his mum as she is so manipulative. So he learned to keep his head down and do what she wanted no argument but it he was doing something she wouldn't like he learned to hide and lie cos her reaction would be over the top. The way OW manipulated him was the same as his mum. Keeping him guessing, blowing hot and cold, pulling him closer then pushing him away and the temper tantrums and the silent treatment if he disagreed with her or stood up to her on anything. It's also the same pattern as his first gf who cheated on him.

He understands he could have ended up in a full lta the way he was acting and that he was never in control and could have got pulled in further so easily.

I have seen him change in that way at least. He has nothing to do with other women now and has done stuff to show me I can trust him with that at least. Refusing to give a female neighbour a lift, stopping porn (his own decision) no more flirting. Tells me where he is at all times. Told me his ex was working in our local supermarket and offered to shop elsewhere. Tells me if any conversations with women, it's a long list.

He says he has seen the grass isn't greener. That he realises the ego boost he got from other women was worth nothing that it's only what I think that matters. That no matter how much attention he got it never filled the hole in him and that he needs to work on that himself cos he has realised no one can fill it for him What resonated with me was when he said he played with fire and ended up getting burned. That that woke him up to the stupid games he was playing all for a bit of female attention and it wasn't worth risking me for.

He has agreed to my stepping back. Says it's what he deserves and he will make sure he is totally honest and be there for me from now on. I won't hold my breath but will see what happens.

Sorry for the long update but a lot got discussed last night.

[This message edited by olwen at 5:05 AM, April 14th (Monday)]

((olwen)) I don't tend to post in General without an express invitation, so I just wanted to drop you a note and say how sorry I am that he's still being defensive, and justifying his actions.

My sense is, he wants you to "get over it" already.

Problem is, he needs to "get it" before you can begin to "get over it." His wedding ring stunt illustrates just how far from "getting it" he truly is.

Thank you 20wrongs.

He seems to get it sometimes but then it's like it's too much for him to take and he reverts.

I can't make him see more clearly all I can do is my best for myself and wait and see.