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I doubt she left the curtains open so the kids could see them. Im sure she didn't even think about it. That's the problem.

This is just it. Her complete disregard for the kids. This is just one additional example in a long list of occurrences that shows her lack of concern. If this had been a one-off event, while not good, it would be forgivable. But it's not. And personally I would want to be keenly aware of where my nine and six-year-old children were playing while outside. If you're in the bedroom having sex then you have no idea. Yes, my ex and I had sex during the day when the kids were home sometimes but usually it would be while they were all outside and we could see them through the window. Not to give TMI here but a quickie up against the bathroom counter while keeping an eye out through the window on their whereabouts was totally safe. The kids stayed oblivious.

Your ex wife is a complete idiot. She's worse. She's a detriment. I wish she would die.

As I wrote with regard to our children seeing them have sex:

Ok, within the realm of "normal."

This is not really the point. They spied on us too when we were married. It happens.

The point is that my son has been suffering with this secret as well as with others; than he has been pleading with his mother to move; that she has zero sexual boundaries when it comes to exposing children to her own sexuality; that she permits her boyfriend to verbally abuse our children. In general, she puts her needs before her children, period.

And DS did not tell me. As I wrote, he told his psychologist while I sat there. He has been too distressed to tell me.

And the psychologist got him to relate all the details: it was daytime, and DS and DD had been knocking on their door for a long time, begging their mother to come out--that they "needed her." But that their mother kept telling them to go away and kept making "crying noises." So they were scared. For at least a half-hour.

If more history and context are needed to justify my concern (and yes, I did relate these to the psychologist): XW permitted our children–then five and eight--to fondle her breasts; to inspect her vagina and rectum; forced my fingers into her vagina in their presence until she orgasmed.

I protested these behaviors, I reasoned with her, I pleaded with her to stop. And then I divorced her and have been hoping against hope that this would not continue with another man.

I hope this helps clarify why I am very concerned for the well-being of my children and why I am not just being prudish or over-protective about an isolated incident in which my children spied on two adults having sex.

[This message edited by Abbondad at 11:50 AM, May 18th (Sunday)]

Um, in the UK, what she did when with you would count as child abuse...

Um in the US you both sexually abused your children. Does the psychologist know about your participation in these acts?

God help your children.

If more history and context are needed to justify my concern (and yes, I did relate these to the psychologist): XW permitted our children–then five and eight--to fondle her breasts; to inspect her vagina and rectum; forced my fingers into her vagina in their presence until she orgasmed.

I can't think of anything to say other than OH MY GOD!

My participation? What in god's name are you talking about. I thought I made it clear that the opposite is true: I protested and notified an authority. I was horrified and was anything but a participant.

Um...what the what????

Holy shit.

What has DS's IC said about the sexual abuse with the kids? Because what you have described is absolutely sexual abuse. And..you participated in this, AD?

Why?

ETA:

"If more history and context are needed to justify my concern (and yes, I did relate these to the psychologist): XW permitted our children–then five and eight--to fondle her breasts; to inspect her vagina and rectum; forced my fingers into her vagina in their presence until she orgasmed."

The above is why you're being asked about your participation. You said she forced you to finger her until she came..in front of the kids. Why did you allow that? Why didn't you remove your hand? Why did you do that until she orgasmed?

[This message edited by confused615 at 1:27 PM, May 18th (Sunday)]

The above is why you're being asked about your participation. You said she forced you to finger her until she came..in front of the kids. Why did you allow that? Why didn't you remove your hand? Why did you do that until she orgasmed?

I did indeed remove my hand, immediately. Frankly I was in shock for the nearly half a minute when this occurred, extricated myself from her, sent the kids away, and attempted to explain to her why this was more than inappropriate. To no avail. I still do not know if the children directly saw it, as it was under a blanket.

What has the children's therapist said about that?

What was her purpose in showing and allowing her children to fondle her breasts? Why was she showing them her vagina..etc?

Not that there is any good reason..but I am curious as to why she said she did it.

Confused,

Send you a PM.

You do know that she has already abused them by doing this, right? Exposing her vagina and rectum to them, getting them to fondle her breasts.This is all child sexual abuse. Were you present when this happened,or did they tell you later? I am worried that there maybe more that you do not know.

Getting you to finger her, under a blanket, but in front of the kids was part of grooming you to make you feel complicit in her acts in front of them.

This is serious stuff.

XW permitted our children–then five and eight--to fondle her breasts; to inspect her vagina and rectum; forced my fingers into her vagina in their presence until she orgasmed.

This is sexual abuse. My heart just cries for your children. They were hurt/damaged BEFORE all this current shit went down. Unless your XW held a gun to your head ~ you willingly participated. It seems by the time you started telling her it was inappropriate and the fact that you don't know for sure if your children saw it, they endured enough for it to be considered abuse.

I hope your DD is also in therapy and that your DS sees his therapist on a weekly basis and that you are completely transparent with what they have witnessed prior to the divorce.

I pray that you are also being transparent with your therapist to process why your boundaries allowed events like the one you described take place in front of your children. I hope that you own your actions that have influenced your children's mental/emotional health.

Both children are in therapy, and I have been in therapy since this occurred. I see now that these episodes were abnormal and destructive. At the time, I walked on eggshells around XW, as it was clear that when I attempted to explain the seriousness of these episodes, it was met with anger, denial, or rationalization. Indeed my therapy focuses in part on why I would permit this to happen to my children; why I was fearful of my XW's reaction. To clarify further: these three episodes occurred within the space of approximately one year, as I recall, concurrent with or overlapping her affair, and contributed to my decision to divorce. I have absolutely owned my actions, passive or not, and am moving forward with my children's health and safety in the forefront of all my decisions. Thank you everyone, for your support and understanding.

Abbondad, well done for talking about this stuff here. I realise this is very hard for you.

I'm really glad you're exploring the issues in counselling. It sounds like she has groomed you for a long time to tolerate her extraordinary behaviour. If you were present during the other occasions, you were complicit. And that's going to take a lot of unwrapping. But she also abused you to accept her abuse of them. It's great that you finally recognised a boundary that was obviously unacceptable in all this.

I say this as a person who was peer abused as a young child. A slightly older child groomed me and someone else, starting with being friends, then show me yours etc, until things got worse. By that time I didn't know how to tell, because I felt I had been part of it up to that point. Normal child experimentation...until it wasn't. I was very conflicted and never told anyone until a year ago. I felt deep shame and stupid and a whole load of other things.

But the likelihood is, that this child who abused me,had been abused themselves. This child was probably groomed to think what was happening was normal. In fact, it's likely that much worse was happening to them. And they had learnt how to groom others.

But the point is, grooming is aimed to make you feel, and preferably be, complicit. So then you are involved and can't say anything. And then it escalates and then you're in even deeper and it gets harder and harder to speak up. Grooming itself is abusive.

So I really do mean,well done for speaking up and getting all of you into counselling.

But at the same time, I'm really concerned that none of the counsellors feel this should be reported to the CPS. Are we missing something that would help us understand?

Hi AD. Thank you for the PM. I haven't read it yet, but will do so tomorrow. This topic has triggered me terribly(I am a CSA survivor), and Im not in a good place to be able to read that PM just yet.

I just wanted you to know that yes..I am ignoring that PM...lol...but only until tomorrow.

I agree with Softcentre...she was grooming you for a long time.

Thank you, everyone. This whole thing has me shaken up and I apologize if I did not express myself clearly or describe the incidents accurately. My XW was a victim of terrible child sexual abuse, and I was naive at the time to all the far-reaching manifestations it can have into adulthood. I still have a lot to learn, clearly.

[This message edited by Abbondad at 4:05 PM, May 18th (Sunday)]

Abd, I'm so sorry, brother.

You know, the people here ripped me a few new ones when I disclosed here some of the sick shit my ex did. Wondering why I tolerated it, incredulous that I didn't just pack up my kids & leave. Some things I had to just not talk about here because most people simply do not understand what it is like to be in that kind of situation as an emotionally unwell victim. And thank God for that, I wouldn't wish anyone to go through this hell.

You have been so badly abused & mistreated, Abd. You are to be commended for getting back up time & again and fighting your way to freedom & sanity. I believe that helping your children is going to be very healing for yourself.

What you've disclosed here today is indeed shocking and jaw-dropping. Many prayers for you & your children, my friend.

You are very brave for bringing this out into the open. I encourage you to continue doing just that in order to process things for yourself and get yourself into a healthy place in order to help your children do the same.

FWIW, this stood out to me:

(1) that your child described what he saw as "inappropriate" sex

and...

(2)

That sounds like she's been coached to say that. Or someone has said something like," Your dad shouldn't be nude with you, it's inappropriate."

I totally agree this sounds coached in some way. It doesn't sound natural to me that a child would use this kind of jargony terminology. Any thoughts on this?

I totally agree this sounds coached in some way. It doesn't sound natural to me that a child would use this kind of jargony terminology. Any thoughts on this?

My thinking exactly. Hence my alarm bells and my constant nagging nervousness that XW at some point will accuse me of "something." I expressed this to my therapist as well as to my attorney--and to my kids' therapist. They understand, and my therapist also indicated that it did indeed sounds "coached." But she also said that any number do more "innocent" scenarios could be just as plausible--for example, that DD had gotten the "inappropriate touch talk at school," or yes, by her mother, but without me as the "subject."

So for now we are in "wait and see" mode.

Abbondad, I have followed your saga when I can. Your story has made me laugh (your chair OMG) and cry a lot. I'm so sorry you're going through this, I can't imagine. Whenever I start to feel down about my situation I see other people posting and realize while it sucks, my situation is nothing like the hell other people are going through.

You, and everyone else here frankly, are such a source of strength for us. Hang in there.

And I hope your XW and her POS AP get what's coming to them. There's only so much leniency a person's sucky childhood should get them IMO. Once they victimize an innocent that's it.

Just wanted to add a voice of support.