SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As hard as it is for you to accept your flaws, your WS is, obviously, having a hard time accepting hers. She is still justifying. After all, if you were perfect then she would be the "bad guy" for cheating on you. And well, we can't have any of that, can we? (insert sarcasm here please). It is so much easier to see things when your heart is not involved. I have followed you a little while on this site and have read your profile. I am far enough along in this journey to know that everything is not as we say. We all colour our stories to make us look good. It has taken me months to see how horrible I was to my WS. I knew I was hard before, but looking back, wow, I was a fucking bitch. Also, we are all at different stages of our grief and healing. Some are further along then me, some not nearly where I am. And unfortunately, we taint our responses with where we are that day and how we are seeing things at this point in this process. Sometimes, when I read the responses to someone who is opening themselves up and asking for help, I shutter at how hard and nasty others can be. Then I temper it with where they might be (emotionally) at that time, and realize that it has a huge significance to how they are doing that particular day. And when we are down, we come to this site for many reasons and one of them is for validation. To prove to ourselves that we matter. That we are significant. Needless to say, we are not necessarily 100% truthful at all times. The hurt is so intense that we colour our story in our favour. With a WS, I would bet that they under estimate the malignancy of their affair while they justify the reasons for it. I do not claim to have all the answers to everyone's problem, but I do know some things for sure:

1) no matter how cruel or insensitive we were in our marriage, nothing justifies cheating. Leave if it's that bad.

2) no one who hasn't been through this understands the pain we are going through

3) the WS always needs to taint his/her outlook on the truth of the marriage for justification

4) the only way for any of this to get better is to work and work damn hard on ourselves

5) some marriages just cannot be fixed

6) very few people can self medicate themselves. We all need help and a therapist is a good start. But all therapists are not created equally, so you might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your "prince/princess" therapists. (I myself am on #3)

I seriously doubt you did everything wrong. I seriously doubt you were a monster. I do believe that we are all capable of doing some monstrous things. Look at me. We all do.

Take heart in the fact that you are trying. You are on the right track. No one can ever be faulted for at least trying.

I don't know your story but I believe you indicated that the proposals were 'not adequate' to her, yet you also mentioned that they were pushed for by her. I do get this sense as someone else said that she had this idealised view of M in her head and when she didn't get things 'her way' she used it as reasons to rationalize her behavior. Yes, there are things that each person can do in the M to repair the M and you need to be open to examining your issues in order to do so, but a MC session focused around all the ways that YOU let her down is not healthy IMO. I went through similar with a MC that WH and I saw. She told me I was spreading tar on the current M by being focused on the As (1m after Dday#2, which was only 2m after Dday#1 and dealing with PTSD). She also told me a lot of other things that made me feel badly about myself. I felt like I was the one holding us in the past and ruining the M. We switched MC and it was night and day. The new one challenges me as well, absolutely...asking questions like 'if you're self esteem is strong then why do his actions affect it', things like that but in a way that will help me grow, not shame me. If you are not happy with this MC you can and should switch. They are not the end-all for opinions and if WS has found one that feeds her logic and nurtures her sense of the victim role in the M, then it's time to change. I think as long as you're taking care of yourself and learning from your experiences then even if you had problems in the M that you're willing to fix, you're headed in the right direction.

Really, that woman for advice on how to propose...

IF we R, Maybe I will re-propose to her or maybe I will have her propose to her, but if I move on and find someone I will get a plan to sign it in the air or something.

See you don't quite get it yet. You still are listening to her words.

The thing is when it's real true love, while grand sweeping gestures may be nice, it's not what matters. What matters it the promise of commitment. It's like she is trying to justify all of her behaviors because it wasn't enough. But here's the catch, when she said yes, that was it. She committed to you and you alone for now and eternity. Some faiths even believe that engagement is when the real promise to God is made that is when rules M apply. Her saying yes to either of your proposals was her making that promise. She can't go back and say because you didn't have a 5 sting quartet, flowers falling from the ceiling, and Celine Dion singing in the background, that the promise wasn't real.

NO she doesn't get a do over.

You on the other hand have given her ample opportunity to do over, and work toward R, problem is her version of R is Fuck you and your needs, and sweep her actions under the rug, and lets go back to the way things were before. That doesn't work, and YOU ARE WORTH more.

LS, sometimes it's easy for us to let our WW confuse the issue. You know why? During the M, they spent an inordinate amount of time installing *guilt* buttons for them to push at their leisure. Little things to start usually. Gradually getting bigger and bigger. Yep, you have anger issues, you used porn. You recognized the behaviors, took responsibility, made amends and changed the behaviors.

Brother, she fucked another man. Her whole *holier than thou* attitude crashes and burns when you stop to realize that she has taken NO responsibility for her own actions. None of this is her fault. If that argument truly held water, couldn't an argument be made that you wouldn't have anger issues or used porn if she would have put out more?

How far back do you go? When will you hold her accountable? You held/hold yourself accountable. Is she that special that she bears no responsibility?

ETA clarification

[This message edited by 5454real at 8:59 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)]

I'm sorry. but I don't care if you proposed in a garbage dump and you are full of faults, there is no justification for an affair! period!!!

If she was unhappy with you, suggest counseling, talk more, separate or divorce even, but don't have an affair.

Its fine to own your own stuff, but you are not responsible for her affair. You proposing bad doesn't even come close to what she did.

If the proposals were so terrible, why did she accept? Ugh!!!!

And this post shows exactly why I advise to NEVER do MC with a WS who is not remorseful.

Every individual is different and has his/her own likes/dislikes, wants, and needs. Marriage is about acceptance and compromise.

I HATED how much my stbx traveled and I brought it up every time he told me about some new out-of-state account that he was getting ready to sign. I was told "I travel. It's my job. Deal with it." Yes, his response was fucked up and shitty, but I weighed (what I thought at the time) was the *good* vs. the *bad* in my life and decided that his travel wasn't my hill to die on. I *accepted* it. I didn't run off to find some other guy to be with while my husband was gone....I went about life as I knew it with no resentment. (I have TONS of resentment about it now that I have the truth about what my life *really* was, but whatever.)

My stbx's perceptions were sooooo twisted that I couldn't rely on anything that came out of his mouth. If I complimented him 99 times and slightly criticised him ONCE.....it turned into me *always* harping on him. He also told me that I needed to start *liking* his family, which was news to me because I always thought I liked his family just fine (with the exception of the one person who I despise).

I quit MC. It was a waste of time and money. I wasn't going to sit there and explain how stbx's *reality* was a complete fabrication that he made up in his mind because of his own extreme dysfunction. It also led to a LOT of unwarranted brain damage being heaped on me by stbx.

One of the biggest problems was that there might be a *grain of truth* in the "complaint".......and that is where the BS gets 'pulled in' and mindfucked -- a mindfuck that goes COLOSSAL once an MC gets involved.

Example: my stbx said that when we argued, that I would go on and on and not let it drop. An MC is going to classify this as a communication problem. It wasn't a 'communication' problem, it was a my husband is a 'self-centered douchebag' problem. Stbx was *right* in that I would go 'on and on' -- because I wouldn't *drop* something when he decided he didn't want to talk about it. He didn't want to have to *answer* to me, he didn't want to *listen* to me, and he sure as hell didn't give a shit about *understanding* or *working with* me......the arguments usually ended with him turning bully on me and telling me that he was going to divorce me.

tl/dr: I could have summed up this whole post with two sentences: Don't subject yourself to the emotional torture of doing MC with an unremorseful WS. Just don't do it.

And this post shows exactly why I advise to NEVER do MC with a WS who is not remorseful.

She feels as though your sins against her, the (in her opinion) lackluster proposal, the porn, the anger, the focus on games/martial arts/electronic devices over her, your _________ (insert whatever here), have given her just reason to cheat. She feels as though she was justified in having an A.

The problem is, you guys are doing it all wrong. She has to decide she's committed to saving the marriage first, to doing the hard work, to really digging deep to figure out why she cheated, to do whatever it takes, to show true gut-wrenching soul shattered remorse, before you can attend marriage counseling together and expect to get anything positive out of it.

Right now you're drowning, LS. You're floundering in this sea of uncertainty, trying desperately to gain purchase so that you can gasp your next breath. Figuring out and acknowledging what you did wrong in the marriage at this particular moment is like asking a drowning man if he's hungry. Does that sound reasonable to you? NO! You'd get that drowning guy a flotation device and rescued and stabilized first. You'd attend to those immediate needs FIRST. You're the drowning man, LS. You're struggling to not sink under the waves of your WW's A, to keep yourself afloat. The things required to save you should call for next to no effort on your part- someone should throw you a lifeline and pull you in. They should attend to your immediate needs first- helping you make sense of your WW's A, coming to terms with it, determining whether or not she's genuinely remorseful, etc. Simply put, she should be owning her shit and doing everything within her power to rectify the situation. That's what will help you most right now, not listening to her selfish notions about your failures as a husband.

Now. Once you get through the worst of it, THEN you can acknowledge your part in the marriage, own your own shit, and work together to move forward. Right now, she's not committed to the marriage. She's agreed to 4 MC sessions to appease her parents, so it appears as though she has one foot out the door already.

Stop letting her call all the shots, LS. Take control. Stop letting things just happen to you. Make things happen. I'd suggest a hard 180. Trying to force an unwilling and uncommitted spouse to R won't work.

(((LS)))

[This message edited by abbycadabby at 10:37 AM, May 21st (Wednesday)]

The house is burning and she is complaining about the paint color in the bathroom.

The house is burning and she is complaining about the paint color in the bathroom.

Pentup-this is the first good laugh I've had in several days. Thank you

It is hard to own up to your side of the marriage when in your mind, you think logically "No matter what I did, I didn't deserve to have this happen to me for so many years."

Exactly. Let's repeat that.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DID, YOU DIDN'T DESERVE TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN TO YOU FOR SO MANY YEARS!!

Please listen to what everyone else said. MC problems come AFTER your wife takes full responsibility for her affairs and dedicates herself to R. What you are doing now is so ass-backwards and makes no sense.

1) no matter how cruel or insensitive we were in our marriage, nothing justifies cheating. Leave if it's that bad.

2) no one who hasn't been through this understands the pain we are going through

3) the WS always needs to taint his/her outlook on the truth of the marriage for justification

4) the only way for any of this to get better is to work and work damn hard on ourselves

5) some marriages just cannot be fixed

6) very few people can self medicate themselves. We all need help and a therapist is a good start. But all therapists are not created equally, so you might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your "prince/princess" therapists. (I myself am on #3)

I am sure of all those ^^^ things too.

You are fighting a losing battle here. She is NOT remorseful, and you guys are wasting your breath. The LAST thing you need is brain damage right now about what YOU did wrong. GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM HER.

Do you need to own your own shit? Yes.

Do you need her help to do it? Do you need her to see you work on yourself? Do you need her to appreciate it if you do change? NO

She can change for herself if she wants to. And YOU can change for YOURSELF if YOU want to. It matters NOT what she thinks of you anymore.

You are all right. For years, I seeked validation and I tried to get it from my parents. You know what happen there. I dealt with a drunk mother and abusive angry father. I was compared to others.

I explained the reason I wasn't so pushy in the beginning of this relationship or to her standards is because as I told her I just got hurt from a girl that I went on a date on.

She basically came in and picked up the pieces and I was a little reserved. And then I figured, she was better than slice bread and I opened up my world, and like a dummy I mentioned porn and then it went down hill from there. She told her parents and grandparents, while we were dating. I felt betrayed and held on to that. I struggled with porn all the way into our marriage and yet, her reaction has been to cheat on me. She disconnected from me and went to the attention of another.

I wasn't always part of the church but I tried to forgive, but since I forgave them already before,and they walked all over me and technically I forgave her and him this time. I am not doing anything about it either way. As much as deep down inside I would love to hurt him, what would that do.

This is not just about proposals, this is truly in my opinion and I am not a shame to say. Her being weak. That is strong word, but I never felt like she was strong enough to do what was necessary to hang in there. Ever since my porn issue and her turning to her Mother and Father like she did, I assumed there is no reason to believe she would ever be support I needed through my battles. And truthfully these last months, her reaction after to ending the affair prove that.

1. After affair reaction 1: Call OM to see if he is ok

2. After affair reaction 2: Start talking to another OM

3. After affair reaction 3: Tell her MIL that she is going to work on Marriage when she is actually talking to OMs

4. After affair reaction 4: Move and Open own bank account.

5. After affair reaction 5: Do nothing while I suffer alone

6. After affair reaction 6: Tell everyone so they can feel sorry for her

7. After affair reaction 7: Says she is sorry for hurting everyone...

8. After affair reaction 8: Spend time with friends during special events...

Yep. Time to forget her.

And time for you to come down to D/S and open a new world for yourself.

So you like video games? How about Clash of Clans?

I'm in the "Warriors of God" clan with DS10. We rule

And this post shows exactly why I advise to NEVER do MC with a WS who is not remorseful.

What gonnabe said.

In fact, I would take it further and say to delay MC until you are ready and able to acccept your FWS as an equal and respected partner in the M.

LS, I recomend dropping the MC idea for now and working on you, regardless if you decide to Not Divorce for now or to proceed for Divorce.

you think logically "No matter what I did, I didn't deserve to have this happen to me for so many years."

This is true, you did not deserve it. That doesn't mean you can't help save the marriage, if you want to. I can't tell if your W is remorseful or not. It does sound like ya'll need to be in MC. I hope for the best for you. But, getting into the "who is more right/wrong" game pre-A is futile and useless.

Here is my problem with Remorse... I want everyone to chime in on this and think real hard about this statement.

ME: You act like I should get over it.

HER: I said I was sorry.

Now she is acting all sweet to me and giving me compliments now...

Where is the remorse in that statement or actions?

Where is the remorse in that statement or actions?

Remorse is a big thing, and that is a small statement. Not enough at all to see the big picture necessary to determine if remorse is present or not..

So here is my chiming...

1. Remorse is going and staying NC while going out of the way to document for BS where the FWS is and what the FWS is doing for as long as it takes for trust to begin to be restored. It is welcoming having phone messages reviewed, email accounts available, and phone logs checked as these are additional ways to demonstrate NC and healthy behavior to the BS.

2. Remorse is a WS owning the A and the internal reasons for it; doing the work through IC, reading, SI, or whatever to identify the Whys for the A.

3. Then learning new behaviors and perceptions for those maladaptive behaviors that helped to perpetuate and sustain the A.

4. Then putting in the time to practice the new behaviors and perceptions so that they become automatic and replace the prior behaviors and perceptions in most situations.

5. While all of this is going on there is a need to demonstrate to the BS that the BS is loved and desired by the FWS. This can be accomplished by learning the BS’s love language, and speaking love in that language. Swinging the pendulum of focus over to the BS for a sustained time, even if this means giving up some personal opportunities.

--Ats

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 2:04 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)]

She's supposed to say "sorry" as many times as you need to hear it.

Lost,

I read your posts and I just shook my head.

Your wife is not remorseful.

Your therapist is valid in wanting you to fix YOUR shit too, but not right now.

Right now, YOU should be getting the bulk of the support so that you can heal from the utter devastation of your wife blowing up your world.

Yes, some of those things you mentioned, that needs to be fixed. But did she complain and say, "Look, HUSBAND, I'm so unhappy that I'm dangerously close to either breaking my vows to you, or reassessing whether I still want to be in this M."

I'm gonna bet the answer is a firm and definite NO.

There are many unhappy spouses that do NOT cheat. Instead they keep trying to communicate, or they get out of the M with their integrity and dignity in tact.

Until YOU are healed from what SHE did to destroy you, the remaining previous issues cannot even be addressed.

If you truly want to R, great. But get a new MC and IC. One that understands better the affects of an A. Better yet, one that specializes in A's and SAs. Your wife doesn't sound like a SA, but those counselors seem to have a better grasp of what is needed to heal a soul and a M.

However, if your wife just cannot find her way towards true R, then you need to reassess if this M is what you can deal with.

You can still fix you and be a better you for a more deserving woman down the road.

I wish you the best of luck and hugs and support on the way.

ETA: Once, in our M, I was unhappy enough to consider D. Know what I didn't do? I didn't cheat. Instead, I communicated with my H. It took about 2 months of trying to get through. Finally, he got it and he made some changes, and I had to make some too. If he hadn't made those changes then, I would have D him. Probably should have, he started his A 2 years later. C'est la vie....but I left the M with my integrity, honor, and dignity completely in tact.

[This message edited by StillLivin at 2:30 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)]

But I am going to be honest - your posts are very victimy. You do have to, as they say, "Own your shit," if the marriage is going to work. You have to pull your weight, too. This is a bitter, bitter pill for BSes who have been so hurt. Believe me, I know.

We all come at these things with our own biases and perspectives, and this one is always hard for me to be okay with because of my own experiences.

My wife and I went to MC before dday. I was pissed off about facing down my issues, I won't lie, but I faced them down. I struggled through that shit because I wanted things to be better - mostly. There were times when it hurt so badly or I was so alone and depressed that wanting things to be better wasn't enough, so instead I wanted to be right. There were other reasons at various points but I quit smoking cold turkey, dealt with excessive drinking, dealt with a whole lot of shit big and small.

After dday when we went to MC the MC started - though a lot more reasonably than LS's MC did - to try and delve into that shit, and my wife stopped her and said "We're here because my response to our place in life was an affair, SG has already put in years of work while I ran away. We need help building trust and getting through this damage, I don't even want to look at that stuff right now." It really left an impression because after years of being superman without so much as a backward glance from her, it felt like I had literal definitive proof of no matter what I had done, nothing would have been good enough.

So while that stuff needs attention, the wake of an affair is a terrible time to give it attention. Because it *does* become a who is right/who is wrong blame game, simply by association. If this was counseling for domestic violence, the therapist wouldn't be asking the wife with the bruised face and busted arm what her character flaws prior to the assault were and what she might have to do to work on them - or ask her abusive husband those questions, for that matter.

There is no point in him looking at this from a perspective of "If this marriage is going to work" so long as his wife continues to be validated in her petty, selfish, cruel behaviors. It certainly didn't help me and I have a list longer than the above that feels too much like bragging to go down. Hell, you know what it accomplished for me? Full readiness to walk out the door and say goodbye to my wife forever. Which wasn't a bad thing at all. Him owning his shit won't make any difference to his marriage right now, unless it's to strengthen the concept that his wife isn't worth it.

I say all this because of my on experience bias. I know we're all different, and it may not apply, but the same can be said for the converse. If that's the right word here, I've got sneakers on the mind for some reason. Not the movie.

eta:

When I say "owning his shit" I am not advocating for abandoning responsibility for personal behavior; I am advocating for keeping the focus on the bigger problem of the moment.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 2:28 PM, May 21st (Wednesday)]

If this was counseling for domestic violence, the therapist wouldn't be asking the wife with the bruised face and busted arm what her character flaws prior to the assault were and what she might have to do to work on them - or ask her abusive husband those questions, for that matter.

YESSSS, THIS^^^^^^

So while that stuff needs attention, the wake of an affair is a terrible time to give it attention.

And more of this too^^^

Well stated StillGoing!