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Have you told either parents yet. Blow up the affair by making it public. Let her see how fun her affair is in the light.

Of course see the lawyer, you have to do that to protect yourself.

But you still need to do some digging, in fact a lot of digging. If it were me anyway, I would need to know who was ruining my life.

Yea, I know the wife is ruining it, but there of course is blame to the OM, and I would need to know just who this person is.

Expose this you have NOTHING to lose she already checked out.

Brother, I am so sorry. What a devastating body blow that must have been.

I'm clearly second choice right now--she's still in the fog

You are worth so much more. Show her.

I see a divorce attorney alone and without her knowledge next week to see what my options are. I still hope for R, but I'm pulling together financial records in preparation for the worst.

Perfect. the proper response in the meantime is implementing the 180. Work on you! The marriage, as of right now, is over. She is, and can no longer be, a part of your life. Your focus needs to shift to survival mode. Go *dark*. She needs to know nothing about your feelings or intentions. Everything you divulge at this point can and will be used against you.

Worst of all, she still says she won't cut contact until she has a chance to talk to OM to see if they have a future.

Well, you have a future, one that is no longer dependent on being married to her. Find out who you are outside of being M to her. Affairs are designed to end M's. Well, she had one. She continues in one. Right now, the next logical step is to file. Don't be her option B, be your option A.

She got so badly drunk and hungover at the family wedding that she swore off alcohol forever. If only she would have the same resolve with her affair.

Lol, got it in one. Any bets she falls off the wagon?

Strength jiang. I am sorry. I wish I could alleviate your pain.

An interesting observation; she's being seeing this OM for 2 years and we all know how much passion these 'new' relationships involve; yet she still isn't fully committed to him; she still hasn't fully made up her mind. Or maybe he refuses to commit to her; either way all is not perfect in her wonderful affair.

I'm guessing this guy isn't so hot after all; that she has severe doubts about him. So she is undecided looking for some reason to commit to one guy or the other. Hence the suggestion that you might want to change some aspect of your behavior, or she needs to talk to the OM and clear the air.

What a narcissist! Parading around like a princess agonizing over what fortunate suitor to bestow her favors on! She deserves neither of you and if it we me she certainly wouldn't be remaining married for very much longer.

Depends on what value you place on yourself; the level of your self-esteem. The better your self-image the less you will allow conceited idiots like your wife to mess up your life. Think about it.

Depends on what value you place on yourself; the level of your self-esteem. The better your self-image the less you will allow conceited idiots like your wife to mess up your life. Think about it.

This is really what it comes down to. If you don't value yourself, then who will?

You deserve better, and you know it. So show her. Show her what a MAN with value does when he is wronged. She her that a MAN does not sit idly by while being disrespected....especially by the one that he loved and protected for 3 decades. I know 30 years is a long time, but 2 years of cheating...with no signs of stopping...is an eternity.

What a narcissist! Parading around like a princess agonizing over what fortunate suitor to bestow her favors on! She deserves neither of you and if it we me she certainly wouldn't be remaining married for very much longer.

Depends on what value you place on yourself; the level of your self-esteem. The better your self-image the less you will allow conceited idiots like your wife to mess up your life. Think about it.

^^^^^ THAT ABOVE, and A HARDCORE NARCISSIST SHE IS! OK Now is dead on!

You have two grown sons. What would you tell them if either of their wives did what your WW did to you? What's your advice for them?

You said you are bipolar. You don't need your WW demanding you to put in a few new moves in the the "pick me" dance. You don't need any more of the mindfuck. In fact, turn it back on her. Tell her "I need to know who I'm competing with. I need to know how to be better than OM. Who is he? What does he do?" and if her narcissism is as bad as you describe and she thinks you are a willing participant of her fantasy, you might get a name of the OM. Then you blow that A the hell up and divulge it to freinds and family. Mindfuck her back.

30yrs of your devotion in your M, only to have your WW wipe her ass with it for the past two years. Now you have confirmation from her that anniversary cruise was all about her, her benefit, and how you play a role in her fantasy. I would be furious if I were you.

she said I seemed so different that she was now ambivalent about separating. She repeatedly told me she loved me. At the same time there were awkward moments when she would dodge my questions or issues that I would raise, which made me angry. I was also mad that she seemed to think saving the marriage meant my behavior had to change, not hers. Worst of all, she still says she won't cut contact until she has a chance to talk to OM to see if they have a future. I'm clearly second choice right now--she's still in the fog. She will divulge next to nothing about the OM. All I know is that he isn't married--if I can trust that information.

All of this is exactly why we all said don't go on that trip with her. All of this could have been said at MC. There was no need to go through 2 weeks of hell listening to her bullshit, watching her protect OM, etc. What your therapists thought you had to gain from spending two weeks alone with this selfish person - rewarding her with a 2 week trip that she admitted was her only reason for sticking around - I'll never understand.

If I were you, I would ask all of them why they thought it was in your best interest to go away with her while she's in this mindset, and why it wouldn't have been better to show her that you won't be a doormat for her or anyone else? I would also let them know that unless they have a damned good reason that makes real sense, and not some 'to see if there was anything still there' that you'll be seeking new therapy. Thanks to their wonderful advice, all she saw was a man that, despite knowing she has been cheating for 2 years, took her on a two week vacation.

I wouldn't just see a lawyer - I'd file. She wants to protect OM? She wants to tell you she loves him? She wants to say she won't commit to you until she talks to OM to see if they have a future? I'd take that choice right away from her. She made her choice two years ago. If she was discussing R now, I would have a different attitude, but her cold, entitled attitude is sickening.

Please Jiang, muster every bit of courage you have, and stop allowing her to disrespect and completely humiliate you! So a sacred commitment, a vow made to you is now a value proposition of what benefits her most, involving another low life scumbag cheater??? The sheer fact that there is even a 'struggle' within her, clearly demonstrates that you must not be involved with this cowardly, selfish liar, who lacks empathy for your pain and her very own children... Heck, she seems to relish the attention!

She is a fucking monster, and you better start acting like Perseus, before she turns your soul into stone... I'm dead serious about this! I hope looking back at whatever the outcome is, the pain of your inaction, allowance of another person to completely demean, humiliate and emasculate you is not overwhelming. It is early on for you, and I know excruciatingly well the pain, disorientation, and shock, but she must be considered an enemy now, a very powerful one with the great advantage of a long checked out time (detachment), having all the knowledge cards of what really happened to be shown as much or as little as possible (TT), the ability to lie very, very well and have seemingly little empathy (sociopath).

These types of cheaters are emotional bullies, thugs, vampires of your soul, and the concrete actions of a man having a spine of fucking steel will extricate you from this nightmare as fast as possible. Good luck friend, we all want the best for you.

I wouldn't just see a lawyer - I'd file. She wants to protect OM? She wants to tell you she loves him? She wants to say she won't commit to you until she talks to OM to see if they have a future? I'd take that choice right away from her. She made her choice two years ago. If she was discussing R now, I would have a different attitude, but her cold, entitled attitude is sickening.

I, personally, draw strength from music. Here's a song that I used for a while and I really think it fits for where you are right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RrA-R5VHQs

(Evanescence -- Call me when you're Sober)

(I gave you the actual video just because I think she's gorgeous and the ending of it is a powerful visual.....but if you aren't familiar with the song, just go to one of the ones that includes the lyrics.)

there are two relatively recent stories on this forum that you might be able to draw inspiration and strength from. both involved a wife cheating.

the first husband drew boundaries, had his wife cross them, re-drew them, had his wife cross them ... rinse and repeat. hes looked into D and talked to a lawyer but each time she gives just enough that he drops it. 45+ pages of people giving advice. 45 pages of him not being ready to risk the marriage to save it. 45 pages of him wanting to nice his wife back into the marriage. 45 pages of his wife still going out drinking at night, still contact with OM, lying to him about where she is, blameshifting, rugsweeping, TT, and most likely still continuing the affair. shes decided that hes one step above a cuckold (maybe) and that he will always continue to put up with her crap because hes demonstrated over and over and over that he will ... oh, he might complain about it but he DOES accept it. she couldnt care a less if hes unhappy, sad, grief stricken, etc ... she just cares that she can go see OM and then come home to go to sleep and have her home life with a parallel life with OM outside.

the second husband laid out consequences and boundaries for his wife. they had a short false R with much TT during that time. but then he reached the end of the line, told her he wanted a D, gave her the papers, and went 180 on her. he now has a remorseful wife who understands what she has done to him/herself/their marriage and who is willing to do what it takes to fight to save her marriage. being so close to losing it made her realize what she was risking and that it was worth fighting for.

if you dont 100% say and mean that an affair isnt acceptable to you and your marriage then you are tacticitally stating that an affair IS acceptable to you. is it?

Whaaat!!? She won't cut contact until she finds out if she and OM have a future? Of course OM is going to tell her she has a future with him..he wants her tail!

Why after someone has told you, listen you just hang on there a second while I ask that other guy if he wants me...if he doesn't then you can have me.

Run for the hills!

You are getting lots of good advice here.

I'm curious how you can accept being plan B? I get the initial shock of discovery and the pick-me dance, I think a lot of us did that. However, after the initial shock wears off, how can you stand being plan B?

I was directly involved in my WW's A ending. OM threw her under the bus when I told OBS. It eats at me often that I might really have been plan B. Only a lot, and I mean a LOT, of hard work from WW has helped me to believe that this was probably not the case. Even now, not being 100% certain of being her first choice kills me.

But you're being told that you're not the best man involved in your marriage, by the one that was supposed to have your back and be your best friend! Don't believe that shit for a second. She has no idea what she has in her marriage, and you're giving her no reason to see it, by allowing the affair to continue with your implicit permission.

Filing for D might revive a marriage that is already dead, but it will certainly end the infidelity. You will find yourself in a better place, and if you choose not to be alone, you won't remain that way -- there is not shortage of good and loyal women looking for the same in a man, even (maybe more so) past 50.

You are not getting any advice that is different from before you went on the trip and the idiot shrinks you were seeing told you to make nice to her. You now have your reward, which is she will keep her affair and you either suck it up and live with it or go.

Don't know how much clearer it can be. After what she is doing to you, she has absolutely no fear of any consequences and you are just her meal ticket while she has a good time.

And unfortunately, if Om dumps her, you will probably welcome her back with open arms on her terms.

If you do not change this dynamic, you are doomed to a lot more heartache.

Sorry for the 2X4

jiang, when you get back, I hope you will do two things: First, find out who this schmuck is and contact his family and friends and inform them that he's helping a woman commit adultery (or that he is, too, if he's married).

Second, go straight to your lawyer you pick, have him print out something THAT day, and go home and hand it to your wife. Tell her you'll move on this today unless she gives OM up. Period. Do not negotiate; in fact, don't say a single other word. She HAS TO SEE YOU MOVING ON for her to want you back. It's basic psychology. She's confused because BOTH men are fighting for her. When ONE of them says him or me, she's more likely to pick that guy.

Bottom line, you don't want her unless she is remorseful and asking you to forgive her.

She will divulge next to nothing about the OM. All I know is that he isn't married--if I can trust that information.

If this were happening to me, I would do everything in my power to find out who this OM is and every single thing about him.

Now I can't remember, how long has she said the affair has been going on?

There has to be others that know who this guy is, there has to be a paper and electronic trail.

What about your wife's friends, are you close enough to any of them to talk to and maybe get some answers from.

Be strong, your wife should start getting a different message from you when she sees you acting independently and strong.

She has cut contact with OM and agreed to joint counseling. I still want R; she seems less certain but open to trying. I have lots of anger to work through myself before we can get anywhere.

Today I visited a divorce attorney without her knowledge just to cover my bases. It all felt a bit clinical and surreal, but I know what to do if things head south.

I'm hearing different opinions on WS honesty. Should it be absolute regarding details of the affair, or will that result in disturbing mind movies for me? I still want to know the identity of her OM, not because I want to confront, but because I want to set my paranoid fantasies to rest. I also want to know how they met, what they did, talked about, and how in the hell she found time in her busy schedule to have an affair in the first place. I want to know every lie she told me.

Most of all, I want to hear remorse, which right now is coming in small doses.

Thanks for the update,

only question i have and it's because i hear the same thing many times "she cut contact or went NC" and a few days later, i read the same thread and the WW never broke NC and gaslighted the husband.

So my question is, how are you enforcing this? Did you expose the affair to her family, friends... this puts more eyes on the ball.

If you are going to R, which you appear to want, I would hate to see you suffer further with more lies and deceit.

[This message edited by atreides at 10:46 AM, July 24th (Thursday)]

Talking to the lawyer puts you in more control. Do not tell her you talked to a lawyer.

I still want to know the identity of her OM, not because I want to confront, but because I want to set my paranoid fantasies to rest.

it is always up to the BS to decide how much they need to know. For some it is everything, and for others it is just the basic questions.

You should write out your questions and give them to her. Tell her not to embellish and not to add details unless you ask for them.

Remember, thinking you know what happened and actually hearing the whole truth are two entirely different things. And will affect you greatly, when you hear the actual words..or read them.

It is never up to the WS to decide what truths the BS needs to know. Some WSs have this terrible habit of talking too much, like wow the sex was great etc.

If you don't want to know those kinds of details, you tell her right away.

But, there is never ever a time for the WS to pick and choose what truths the BS needs to know.

As for knowing who the OM is. You have to know, otherwise every guy you see at the store, at the corner, at the gas station, etc, you will wonder. And that would be unacceptable.

You should also continue to snoop on your own.

She told me she cut contact on the basis of advice from her psychiatrist. Perhaps I'm naive, but I want to trust her. I have not exposed the affair, nor do I know the identity of the OM.

What signs should I look for if she is being deceitful? What constitutes gaslighting, for instance?

How did she cut contact?

Have her prove it.

Considering she has been deceitful to you, why believe her words now.

Always verify. If there is no lying going on, then it should be easy to verify by her.

To me gas-lighting means you saw her at the bar, and she tells you something like, no, it wasnt me, it was my evil twin.

You know damn good and well you saw her, but her gas-lighting makes you doubt yourself.

You snoop with everything she owns. Has she given you her passwords, does she let you look at her phone.