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you're husband mention that you did things to the OW that you refuse doing with your husband and that's really hurt him a lot ..

my question is are you willing to do those things with your husband now ?

I think 1 or 2 posts give you an important question

to see how remorsful you are .. the things that you denied your husband and did with OM,what if the husband try those things what gonna be ur reaction?

At this point in time I could care less about that. My BH is HURTING and in IMMENSE pain. I did that, no one else. If and when he wants to talk about it we will.

redsox13, your absolutely right. As I sit here typing this I realize how stupid I was/am. It is just another excuse. Of course I see it when it is really to late. That is what several people do, and I did it as well. I once again projected my personality flaws on him. I KNOW him better than anyone else, and I really believe he isn't capable. He has never faltered with his dedication to our country, to the people he protects, to me, the kids or my family. I can only wish that I had a small fraction of that dedication before I did everything to him I have done. I can have all the dedication in the world now, but that's way to late.

I really want to thank everyone for your support and suggestions. For me and BH. I know he doesn't want to talk to my (his to) family about this too much. I know he talks to his IC, but I don't know how much support or well wishes he gets there. I know he is appreciative of everyone on SI very much. He is always going on about a lot of you and what you have to say and what your up to. I want to thank all of you that don't let me forget I did this and don't let me slide. There are a bunch of ya that called bs and it was. You all haven't let me get away with anything and it helps me to stay focused. Because it is so very easy to slide down that slippery slope. I may stumble, but you have helped me get up and move forward. So thank you all.

SoSorry, I wrote you a post, but I guess I didn't POST it.

I wanted to let you know how impressed I am with your continued progress. I think recovering from an affair is a very difficult proposition, for anybody.

You have the added burden of a crazy off-the-wall xAP to deal with. I know you can't ignore him, but try as much as you can to not let him into your relationship.

I'm glad you went to to the authorities. Did they keep his "bag of goodies". Sounds like they are easily proven to NOT be yours. But, even if the stuff was yours, his actions of dropping them off to Swat is still wrong.

I do believe his broke the restraining order, as he was actually returning (supposedly) the goods to you. But since he's used SWAT to be his delivery boy, and has interrupted Swat's day more than once....perhaps Swat can get the restraining order to apply to him as well.

And then your other family members will have to be on the lookout for him....as nothing would surprise me.

So, I praise you for coming here, taking many 2x4's, and learning from them. You are on your way to being the person you want to be.

And I wish you success with getting this AP out of your lives.

you're husband mention that you did things to the OW that you refuse doing with your husband and that's really hurt him a lot ..

my question is are you willing to do those things with your husband now ?

I think 1 or 2 posts give you an important question

to see how remorsful you are .. the things that you denied your husband and did with OM,what if the husband try those things what gonna be ur reaction?

I'm not sure about the interest in this particular aspect of SoSorry and Swat's recovery. Extremely personal (they'll share if they wish to). And, I don't think whether SoSorry does, or does not, do this "thing" with Swat is a testament of her remorse or lack of remorse.

If my memory is correct, she didn't even like it. To submit to something she really doesn't like, out of guilt for a past mistake, doesn't sound like the makings of a healthy sex life to me. They'll figure it out, when the time is right.

[This message edited by JanetS at 3:57 PM, July 21st (Monday)]

I KNOW him better than anyone else, and I really believe he isn't capable.

SoSorry,

I think you are making progress here. I just wanted to point out that it's not that he isn't capable. Rather he chooses not to. And that is a big difference. He had been perfectly capable of acting out in all sorts of crazy ways. Heck, he could probably even get plenty of people to support or cheer on some pretty crappy stuff. But he chooses not to.

Just like your affair was a choice. Just like you were capable of hurting the one person you love so much. I would be willing to bet that before all of this happened people would have thought you weren't capable of causing so much pain. You may not of thought you were capable either. Yet here we are. Making the realization that I was capable of doing the things I did makes a big difference in my actions. It caused me to be more careful with the way I interacted with others.

My BH has always known he was capable of causing harm. And I will tell you he has always had great boundaries in place. Maybe swat knows he is capable too and he makes a conscious decision to act accordingly.

Which in my book, is very honorable. So saying he isn't capable is selling the guy short.

Walking, I want to disagree with you. It isn't that SWAT chooses, it is rather that I actually think he is incapable.

I was a prosecutor. I tried a case one time where a father killed his wife, and then cut the throat of his two year old daughter. He killed his two year old child. Why? This is a direct quote, and the most chilling thing I have ever heard: "because she was going to be a C** like her mother" Think about that. Something happens to you when you are exposed to that. Part of you really wonders if there is any goodness in the World.

But the other part of you gets touched in a way that somehow makes you aware of how much harm people do to one another. The awareness makes it just impossible for you to think of ever doing something like have an affair. The exposure to the horror makes you aware of just how fragile people really are. I am no saint, but I couldn't have an affair even if I tried. I suspect, knowing something about SWAT he couldn't either. In fact, it actually kind of pissed me off that I couldn't when I found out about my wife's affair - it made me feel weak.

It's why SoSorry's affair had such an impact on him, and why my wife's did on me. My wife is my one proof that there is beauty and tenderness in the world. I suspect the case is the same with SWAT. So the affair cuts him to the bone in a way neither my W nor SS17 ever expected.

Somehow SS17 you have connect your understanding of who SWAT is to why he loves you, warts and all. When you do that you will stop projecting, and will start even to like yourself. A hell of a guy loves you despite all you have done. You need to find out why you did what did - certainly.

But you also in your gut need to truly appreciate what his love means.

You are trying like hell - still cheering for you - but I am not sure you understand either yet.

I do think you will get there.

Try answering this question: Why does Swat love you? Not did love you. But now, right this minute. What does he see that you don't?

I hope this makes some sort of sense.

[This message edited by redsox13 at 10:27 PM, July 21st (Monday)]

Your words are so true. Her biggest trigger is me and it really makes me not know what to do for her. We are all working to be better, right.

I miss my husband. The one who laughed and smiled all the time. The one who talked about everything under the sun. The one who hugged me and told me I was beautiful and loved me. The one who spent every night in bed with me and told me his dreams and wishes.

Now. He doesn't smile or laugh hardly at all. His conversations are focused and painful. He still hugs me and tells me I'm beautiful, sometimes. He doesn't spend many nights in bed with me anymore and he doesn't confide in me either.

The difference is through no fault of his. That lays squarely at my feet. The things I've done have changed us as people. There is no going back and fixing us. I'm going to be a better person than I was for our entire marriage and my affairs. That is a promise I made to myself.

Last night I was trying to sleep, BH was working. I was wishing that I had learned how much infidelity destroys everything. I would know how much pain it causes and would learn about my problems and how to cope with them. Then I would get in that non-existent time machine and go back to my wedding day and start all over again. I'm sure that I'm not the first wayward and I know I won't be the last to wish that.

I also wanted to thank everyone for your support and advice with AP latest fiasco. The PM's came rolling in and I just wanted to say thanks cause you all are great.

I know how hurt you are about your husband's pain, but try not to focus on that.

It takes time. Swat is in it for the long haul, as are you. Time. Time. Time.

It will never be the same. It can still be very good, just different.

Keep up the good work on yourself. Don't look back, reach forward.

Try answering this question: Why does Swat love you? Not did love you. But now, right this minute. What does he see that you don't?

redsox13. I saw this and I had to think about it for some time. I'm not exactly sure. He has often referred to me as his "prize and angel" and he needs me. I'm the mother of his children. I am typically a generous, caring and loyal person and a good friend. I wasn't any of that during the affair, my actions show as much. But I'm getting back to being that person. I think he may see that I do love him and I never stopped and that I'm working to make sure I'm never the same person who had an affair.

But I honestly don't know. I can guess all of the above and be completely wrong. He just loves me and is still here giving me a chance to be worthy.

But I'm getting back to being that person. I think he may see that I do love him and I never stopped and that I'm working to make sure I'm never the same person who had an affair.

I think he really believes you have the potential to do this.

Think of it as a long span bridge project for analogy. The A created a very large channel of turbulent waters between you SWAT. You both agreed to build this "R" bridge but you are starting on the opposite side of the channel.

You have to be careful not to rush it or you will build a weak bridge, or if any at all. Just keep your pace consistent, making sure that each section you add to your side of the bridge is strong and secure and can withstand any storm for the time being on your own, even without the help of his support, until you both eventually meet in the middle to bond and strengthen the unity of the span against all future storms. Remember, he has to do the same from his side of the channel. Neither one or the other can finish such a bridge on their own.

Like any building project, there are hiccups along the way. When those occur, the issue at hand must be resolved because you don't want to add another section to a weak support beyond this one. Every new section past that point relies on strength of that last built section.

Now, SWAT sees you constructing your side of the bridge as he is constructing his own. For as long as you keep adding sections, he sees your effort and he knows there will be that meeting in the middle. He sees hope of a new bridge. He sees your potential.

Now, once you two finally finish that bridge, you still have the work to maintain it. It is a never ending process.

So it is just me and the youngest home this weekend. BH took my bro the other kids to 1,000 islands to go fishing. They went to stay with some of his friends for the weekend. I've been getting a steady stream of pictures of the kids from him. It is the first time fishing from a boat for both of them. The smiles are priceless.

Fishing rates right up there with working out and shooting with BH. He loves fishing and I have recycled more fishing a gun magazines than any one person should have to.

It isn't something he has done a lot of since the middle boy was born. Took dd to the lake a couple of times before then but he hadn't been in five years. I'm happy for him, he needs some stress relief and it gives him some time with the kids doing something he loves. BH had mentioned the invite earlier in the week but then he never mentioned it again until he got home from work Fri morning. He said he was going and asked if he could take the kids. He didn't take the little one because they would be on a boat and he thought it could be too dangerous. I'm a little sad about it as well. BH and I haven't had much us time since he works nights, most of his awake time is family time or we are talking about the affair. They are coming back early Mon and then he is back to work for a couple of days, so that sucks a little. But me and the "carbon copy" as he is known have been having a good time to. Called up my parents and SIL and we used the passes and went to the ren faire. Saw BH ex again and low and behold watched her act again. Guess what? Exact same thing happened except this time it was some other big muscular guy. She even came over and talked to us and acted the same. She was friendly and just a nice person. She asked where BH and the other kids where and I told her. She said that was nice bonding time for them. Then she asked me how I was doing. She said she had heard from some mutual friends what AP had been doing and she knows and has some experience that he is kind of "stalkerish". She then proceeded to lay the smack down. She said I hurt one of the best men she has ever known. She said no one told her she just could see it. She said anyone who ever knew him could see it. She went on to say that she had loved him back then and would take him back in an instant. Her and her gf both. She smiled and said "yep, every mans fantasy 2 women any time he wants. But honey you had every womans fantasy, a man who loves them with all their heart." She wasn't being mean and was just making a point. She gave me a hug and said to fix it because he deserves what he wants and so do I. So here is a woman, whose eyes I wanted to gouge out telling me to fix my shit, so we can both be happy. So I'm sitting in the car (riding in the back. No texting and driving here) and you could knock me over with a feather.

But today was a great day. We both are spending time with the kids and doing things we like. Lots of pictures to share when we do get together. I miss him but I still enjoyed the day. Maybe it really is sinking in. I won't see him until Mon and I'm not imagining him trying to get even and I'm not feeling insecure.

I love the thousand islands. Only maybe 4 hours from me.

His old gf sounds like an SI member, 2x4's and hugs together. Strange that she said she'd "take him back", but it doesn't sound like she was threatening to try. Just wants you to know how lucky you are to have him.

Sounds like AP's reputation is widespread. Lordy I hope he does some serious jail time. But with today's justice system, too many get slaps on the wrist. But at least you have the protective order.

Enjoy the rest of your one-on-one weekend, special time with the little one.

The former GF just gave you one hell of a present. Not only in being honest and authentic with you, but in a memory that you can hold on to, the next time the green-eyed monster raises it's ugly head up. Things may not be as they seem, as they look. Reserve judgment, and Just The Facts, Mam!

You are now certain that not only were your suspicions about Swat were wrong, but the ex-gf too.

One thing to think about: How much does your belief that people always want to get even cloud your perception?

[This message edited by redsox13 at 6:33 PM, July 27th (Sunday)]

SS17, as you have time, you might think on something. Compare this

It's everywhere. TV,movies, music and real life. It just seems ever where I have looked my entire life. People do the most awful things to get revenge.

To this...

She wasn't being mean and was just making a point. She gave me a hug and said to fix it because he deserves what he wants and so do I. So here is a woman, whose eyes I wanted to gouge out telling me to fix my shit, so we can both be happy. So I'm sitting in the car (riding in the back. No texting and driving here) and you could knock me over with a feather.

For whatever reasons, you have lived for years--if only in your head--in a world where infidelity was normalized. You perceived that "everyone did it." You perceived that people do awful things, and even that people deserve to have awful things done to them, if they stand between you and what you want or think you need. And you were sure others did the same.

Compare this to SWAT, and to the girl from the Ren Faire. SWAT and this girl are members of Another Reality--a Reality where people behave well because it gives them a sense of honor and purpose in life, where happiness comes from good acts and acts of kindness and service, not from reaching for what fills your perceived needs regardless of the cost.

You have a wonderful chance now. SWAT, and this girl, and all your friends here on this forum are all inviting you to join us in Our Reality--a reality where people are, on the whole, loyal and kind and where it never occurs to them that peace or kindness could ever be purchased by dealing out hurt or revenge.

SS17, this is a good Reality to live in. And it is not a myth or a lie or an illusion, it is a Reality that can be yours too. Keep working. Come join us. You will be happier here than you ever, ever imagined you could be.

One other thought. Talk about these things with SWAT. Not OM, not your affair, but what the world looked like to you growing up, how you thought people worked, how you thought he worked, how you thought you worked. Ask him how he thinks people worked, how he thought he worked, how he thought you worked.

You say you don't know what he loves about you -- ask him. It will feel bad, because you will be tempted to think and even he might be tempted to think that what he saw in you was not the real you. Partly, it wasn't. He clearly made you out to be the heroine of his story, and his story, with its childhood abandonment, clearly needed a heroine. He drafted you for the part. That is certainly a truth.

But it is not, no where near, the whole truth. The things that are motivating you to do better now, to want to join us who live in a better reality, were always in you. They were what SWAT saw.

But share, share, share. You have to rebuild your understanding of your life and of the way life works, people work, from the ground up, if you want to join SWAT and us in our reality. Share your work with him.

And let him share his grief with you. He is grieving the loss of the you that was on his pedestal. Help him talk about that. Help him mourn her. And as you do, he will come to know you again, and in some ways for the first time. You might come to know you, the best side of you, for the first time too.

I make no promises. No one controls the outcome. But SS17, every day that goes by is a day we never get back. Share these days and all that is in you with the man you love.

Owl, what wonderful words you shared with SoSorry17. Thank you.

Me and the little man had a great weekend. He says he wants to be a knight now. Boys do love sharp pointy things.

I've missed Swat and the other kids, but I think he needs some time to himself. Actually I'm sure he needs some time away from me. I've been pretty pushy about him spending time with me. I have spent a lot of time thinking about the exgf and what she said. I have got to start trusting BH. He has never given me cause to not trust him, but I again was projecting. I know that I have to make myself a better person, for my kids and me first. But I'm a little afraid. I don't want to lose my husband, even though I have to be able to let him go. He may need that to heal. So I'm waiting for them to get home, they should be back within the next two hours. Swat did text and said he had a bunch of pictures for me and the kids each bought me a gift. He has to work tonight so I won't be able to spend any time with him.

Logically I do understand space is a good thing for both of us. My heart says grab him tight and don't ever let go because he could walk away if I don't.

Owl, I'm a sharing machine. Just check out my posts. But I only share here and IC now. I know that a lot of what I write here maybe tmi, but you all are my sounding board. I have gotten solid advice, gentle and sometimes harsh guidance. Some times I need a kick in the pants. I wish he would share his grief. But that isn't what he tends to show me. He shows his anger and sadness, but doesn't share it. I can see it but he refuses to talk about it. If that makes any sense. Most of our conversations have revolved around my affair. The PA upsets him the most because it is the most recent and well..it was physical. He keeps going back to that and he just doesn't seem or want to believe that it was just fantasy for me. He refuses to believe that he is what I really do want. He compares himself and our sex life to the affair and my journals. That and my lying about it all, have him believing that he is "lacking". Which is the farthest thing from the truth. I can tell him until I'm blue in the face, my word doesn't have a lot of weight with him now, so I'm kind of stuck. There isn't much I can do to fix it at this point. I'm being honest with him with everything, I am hoping he sees this and will eventually believe me that he lacks nothing compared to AP or any man really. I will share anything he needs or wants me to, but right now he doesn't want me to I guess.

Today I'm content, not quite happy but I'm not a puddle on the floor either. I believe I'm a better person than I was a week ago. I'm making a determined effort to change my thought processes and decision making. It isn't always about me anymore, I have a lot of people my actions affect. I still have some melt down moments and they suck.

SS17, I don't have experience recovering from infidelity, so you need to take my advice for what its worth. But I do have years of painful, exhausting, but ultimately hope- and life-giving experience recovering from substance abuse and from major depression. I think they all have some things in common-- not everything, and not at all the same-- but one thing they have in common is the intense shame we feel, and how damnably difficult we find it to 1. see ourselves as we really are, and 2. break through the shame we feel to show and share who we really are, without fear, or hiding, or pretence-to ourselves first and then to those closest to us.

One rule of thumb I have found works pretty infallibly is to look hardest and most searchingly exactly where you flinch the most from looking. A second is to listen to people when they tell you where you need to look.

So when I said share, share, share it was in this specific context of looking hardest at what you most don't want to, and sharing what you see with yourself and SWAT as neutrally and truthfully as you can.

Let's apply it to what you just wrote, becuase some of it really struck me. You are so close to a really big insight into your whys, one that I think would help both you and him. Let's try to push through the last walls.

You wrote,

Most of our conversations have revolved around my affair. The PA upsets him the most because it is the most recent and well..it was physical. He keeps going back to that and he just doesn't seem or want to believe that it was just fantasy for me. He refuses to believe that he is what I really do want. He compares himself and our sex life to the affair and my journals. That and my lying about it all, have him believing that he is "lacking". Which is the farthest thing from the truth. I can tell him until I'm blue in the face, my word doesn't have a lot of weight with him now, so I'm kind of stuck.

I know stuck. Stuck usually means you are close to the heart of things, but it is too painful to look at. So we are going to look.

The PA upsets him the most because it is the most recent and well..it was physical.

This is a classic male response. It is deeply wired. And in the end, getting through it is part of his work in recovery.

But...

He keeps going back to that and he just doesn't seem or want to believe that it was just fantasy for me.

Oh, wow, did you hear it? It's right there, did you hear it? "Just." That's the bell, the clue, the signpost.

SS17, it was not, is not, and never will be "just" a fantasy. I understand, I think, what you are trying to convey--that it was never about choosing the OM as a man, as a person, over SWAT, becuase you loved/thought him better than/thought him superior than SWAT. I beleive you completely.

But the "Just a fantasy" is essentially the same as the old "it meant nothing" line anyone tries to give him or her self or him or her loved one after cheating.

By definition, it meant something. By definition is was not "just" a fantasy, becuase the allure of this fantasy for you was so powerful that it caused you to choose to betray SWAT. Look at it from SWAT's point of view--if it was "just a fantasy" and therefore it meant nothing, than he meant less than nothing, because you chose nothing over him.

It wasn't nothing. It was everything.

So stare straight at it. WHAT was this fantasy really about? WHAT need was it that was so huge and howling and insatiable that plugging it REQUIRED, NEEDED this baroque fantasy? What did fantasizing about those acts, those exchanges of power, or of humiliation, or of surrender, DO for you?

It's not enough to try to persuade SWAT that you DID NOT choose OM as a person over him. You need to be able to explain to yourself first, and him as he is ready to hear it, what you DID choose over him. Because that is the only way he can feel safe that you will not choose it again.

This is really raw stuff. I am not and would never propose that you work out all the details here. This is for IC, and later, for you and SWAT to talk though. But the fact that you kept the journal and guarded the fantasies tighter than you guarded OM himself is a huge clue that the fantasies, the need to get someone to make you feel something, is a big key.

Keep listening to yourself and to SWAT. When SWAT tells you he can't get past the sex, don't flich from it-- the "it was a fantasy, it wasn't real." You can say, "I never chose OM as a man and I never ever for an instant wanted him as a man. I know to the core of my being this is true, and I will wait and assure you and love you and help you in any way as you try to find a way to beleive me." But you ALSO have to say, "However, SWAT, you are right in a more important way--I didn't chose the OM as a man, but I chose feelings--feelings tied to sex acts--over you. And if it wasn't OM I would have found someone else. Here is what I think the feelings were... here is where they came from... here is the way I saw myself, that I was never willing to show you... here is the way I see myself now... here are the fears I have still about where that came from... here are the fears I have about what part of those feelings might still be in me even now... and that is the part that makes me not understand what you ever saw in me... or fear that you can't possibly love me."

That is what I meant by share--search, search hardest at the absolute hardest parts to look at, and share that.

I don't think I've ever been more compelled to respond to a post or more emotionally moved by the insight and wisdom than by what Owl has just posted. From the bottom of this BS's heart, thank you.