SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I apologize for the slight t/j but wow swizzle. Thank you. While I'm all shock and awe on my wayward (have been since day 1), you just solved some of my burning questions. Thank you!

End t/j

To answer your question about the 180 I can say that many BS before you have asked something along those lines. The 180 works but only as long as you keep in mind that it is about detaching for your sake. It's not about how the WS reacts to it.

I told her I wanted to see her electronics and she refused. I told her that I have no solid ground to stand on, no reason to believe it's over since the day she supposedly broke it off with the other guy, is not reflected on the phone bill.

She then said I misheard her and she didn't call on her phone, she called on her office phone.

In our last couple's therapy AND this afternoon, she said she called from her phone.

I said I can't take this any more, she said she can't either.

Then she said, okay so lawyers.... how do you want to proceed?

Wow. More pain. I'm in bad shape

It is taking everything in Me to stay downstairs and not join her in bed.

DG,

I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through. For her to lash out at you, is a trait I've seen in many of the betrayers (my WH included.)

I'm about 2 years into this process (know about an affair) and 1 year knowing it was sexual.) I got so many lies, it is impossible to believe anything that comes out of his mouth. I quickly read over some of the responses and it seems that you don't want to divorce because of your girls? I don't have to tell you, that is NOT a reason to stay married.

If you would have told me 2 years ago I'd still be living with my husband after finding out about his 18 month affair, I would have told you you were out of your mind. Funny how until it happens to you, you really don't know WHAT you'll do. I've had so many people give me advice, throw him to the curb, try counseling, etc. I did try these things, but when they would say "just move forward" I moved forward right out of their office! Moving forward is a process, and it's not as easy as just telling somebody to move forward. There are real feelings involved here and it HURTS. So in my clumsy way, I thought I'd offer up some "beginner" advice.

1. See if your WW even wants to be married to you. You have to be receptive to how she really feels. After I found out about the affair (not the physical part) my WH and I had hysterical bonding (LOTS AND LOTS) of hot gooey sex. Even after I found out about the affair, it was mindblowing. But we both wanted to try to make our M work. Her laying there (I almost pictured her doing her nails) is not a woman who wants to be there. So ask the question and be prepared for the truth.

2. IF she wants to save the M, then she has to be an open book. She needs to write up a NC letter and she needs to kiss your ass until.... One thing I have found, I may be doing a little better (at least I an function) and he will be mean or yell at me and BOOM I'm right back at D day and I'm feeling all the feelings, thinking about him all over her, everything comes flooding to my mind. If he does nothing to help me stop my spiral, I go down hill fast and we're enemies for quite some time. So it is important that she's gentle with you and right now, I don't care how she feels, it's YOUR turn.

I'm going to start with those 2 since they are biggies. If you want to talk privately, I'll be glad to do so. Hugs to you, don't worry you'll put the weight back on, I lost 35 lbs. in one month and I've gained all but 10 back

Thanks

Emotionally, I'm all over the map right now. Last night's fight escalated to divorce talk faster than expected.

I don't want this marriage to end. Not because of my daughter's ( although they are a factor), but because, I don't want to leave my wife.

We just fired our MC because she was working on the "moving on" part without actually addressing the A.

Whenever I'd mention that I felt insecure, like there was something still going on, our MC would say "she has already said she's not having an affair anymore. This is taking a step backwards and we're trying to move forward."

When my wife wakes up, I don't know what I'll do. Since we were talking divorce, I don't know if I can turn back. Or if I should,for that matter.

So confused!

Deceived

Can't you see how obvious this is. She did exactly what all of us told you she would do because you ASKED to see her electronics. You are deceiving yourself if you think she cares about your marriage. She cares about being able to continue her affair and is pissed you are trying to interfere.

You are still in denial:

You need therapy, not for at, but to help you get over this absolute submission to her and fear of her.

She does not give a shit if her marriage ends, and it takes two people to be married.

You MUST accept the fact that your marriage is over right now.

She is involved with another man and refuses to stop.

Only when the actual reality sets in is there a chance of anything changing.

She has called your bluff and what you just posted says you are ready to capitulate.

Bullies, and she is bullying you, will not stop until they get punched in nose.

You can keep posting to relieve your anguish but there is absolutely nothing anyone here can tell you that can stand up for you.

My guess is she will probably put on her sluttiest clothes to go to work in to show you how little she cares about you

The advice myself and other have given you still stands

GET TO A LAWYER today

Want a divorce – don’t want a divorce…

That is NOT the issue!

Imagine you wake up in the middle of the night and smell smoke. You lie there half-awake and hope it’s your neighbor grilling steak at 3 AM… Then the smoke-detectors start wailing… You are now fully awake and you think that MAYBE the smoke from the neighbors grill set off HIS detectors… Only they are loud… And the smoke smell is increasing… And your neighbor lives way off… And he has never previously fired up his grill in the middle of the night…

You would be the dumbest guy in the world if you hadn’t jumped out of bed right away – right there when you woke up and realized the smoke-smell – and checked what was going on. Not to mention when the detectors went off. Even IF there was a slight chance it was your neighbor. You would probably rush around the house and look for the cause.

Now – You COULD see the flame and realize your house was on fire. But you could also see the smoke crawling from under the door of the laundry-room and DEDUCT that there is a fire in there without actually opening the door and seeing the flames.

At this point – What would you do?

Would you sit down and say “I WISH I didn’t have a burning house” and then ignore the problem in the hope it left?

Would you say “I can’t call the fire department. The water will damage my house” or “Their boots will ruin the carpets”.

Would you try to negotiate with the flames; “Take the laundry room and leave the rest”.

No. Chances are you would start by making sure your most prized assets – you and family – are safe. Then call for help. You would then allow that help to do its job – even IF the water and boots wreck the carpets. You wouldn’t ask them to stop once most of the embers are out. You would expect them to COMPLETELY kill the fire.

Chances are you would do your best to get everyone out. But if someone persisted in running into the burning house then once you have done all you can to prevent it… It’s all you can do. They will go in.

Maybe the fire won’t destroy the house. Maybe it can be saved. Even if it burns significantly then MAYBE there are foundations for a new one.

But maybe it’s only cinders and you move on.

Never ever. Not ONCE in the above scenario does the phrase “I don’t want a fire” help you. It is what it is. It is the reality you are dealing with.

So not wanting a divorce…

Well… What are your options?

Are you willing to accept an open marriage? [This is a real question – many people do go this way.]

Some couples either have a formal or informal agreement that one or the other can have their lovers. It can be a “no questions asked” situation or it can be in the open.

Sound good? Something you could accept?

Well… If not (and I’m assuming you post here because you aren’t happy with the present situation) then what option do you have? You don’t WANT a divorce any more than you WANTED that fire. But it’s been shoved in your path.

To me the work phone/cell phone isn’t the issue.

The issue is that you don’t have a clue who the OM is and your wife has no accountability.

She can be seeing him still and there is no way you can tell. In fact – she IS still seeing him every day at work.

Affairs can be compared to addictions like alcoholism.

At best your WW has reluctantly accepted she shouldn’t drink… So she doesn’t in front of you. Yet she still has an occasional beer (“innocent” workplace interaction with OM) and keeps a bottle or two of vodka hidden (not told OM it was over and committed to NC). Heck – she might even have a shot or two during lunch (quickie in the supplies room). Even IF she’s committed to sobriety then it’s not going to work on her self-will alone. She has too much hidden, she’s bound to fall for temptation.

I’m joining the chorus telling you to stand firm.

I’m saying you have nothing to lose other than your pride and you marriage.

I would consider the following steps:

No lawyer? Well… what is her offer? How can you be sure it’s fair? You two NEED an attorney. Debt, some assets, SAHD, custody… There is too much at stake to amateur it.

Expose the affair.

Talk to stakeholders like friends, parents, pastor, siblings, in-laws… Tell them the marriage is going through difficulties because she is having an affair. Ask them to try to influence her in a positive way for the marriage.

What is her business relationship with the suspected OM? Superior? Same level? Does the company have a HR policy dealing with personal relationships?

How hard would it be for her to get another job?

What can you tell us about the suspected OM? Married? Local?

[This message edited by Bigger at 6:10 AM, July 10th (Thursday)]

Badhurt I know you're right. I feel it. This is much harder than I thought it would be.

I had momentum last night, which was more guts than I could muster in the past.

Now, actually talking (yelling) about divorce, the pain in my stomach cranked up to a new level.

I know she is probably still having an affair, but when it comes to divorce, I can't let go.

I know I look like a weak idiot, but I can't do this.

I'm already seeing a therapist tomorrow. I had scheduled that last week because our MC wasn't addressing my issues, just "moving on"

I'm going to talk to a lawyer today. I don't think I'm going to tell my wife though. I want to wait until I know I what I'm dealing with.

I just had surgery Monday and I'm without use of my right hand (I'm right handed). I've been out of my job field long enough that I'm not going to be making a lot of money (I'm in IT).

I let my wife go back to work and I was a stay-at-home dad for almost. 8 years

I'm scared to death of making this leap.

Bigger,

The suspected other guy is a large guy who works in building maintenance in her office building. The calls to him no longer show up on her cell Bill however, it totally feels like she's still having an affair. She is now participatory at home, not detached any more. However, she is standoffish with me. Little details, hard to explain.

It does not matter if he is large, small, or has one leg. if he has a dick, that is your problem.

Bigger put it much more eloquently than me. You reality is what it is. You have taken no steps other than looking at the cell bill. There is a lot more that you can do IF YOU WANT TO.

If you look at a web site of signs your spouse is cheating on you, one of the FIRST things that pop up for women is a change to more sexy mode of dress. GUESS WHAT, THAT ONE IS STARING YOU IN THE FACE EVERY MORNING. So forget about the cell phone bill. She does not need a cell phone. She sees him every day at work.

A divorce is NOT instantaneous. So stop assuming if you file you will be divorced next week. It sends a message that you are done putting up with sitting home while she has sex with other men and taking it gracefully.

How can you possibly crawl into bed with her at night knowing what she is doing??? is that the way you want to continue to live.???? If so, you do not need to get any advice. Just live with the heartache and know it will continue because there will be more other men. You CANNOT escape what she is doing by putting your head under the pillow.

our birthday is coming up. Her present to you will probably be to bang this other guy as your birthday present. Nice birthday huh???

You are either going to accept the open marriage or you are going to do something about it. BIGGER told you, the fire is not going to go out on its own.

You will probably get many more posts here. Do not think you will see too many saying anything tooo mmuch different. Scroll down to previous pages on JFO forum and read one called "12 Days" by Onguard. That is what is in store for you, or if you have half a day read one by SAVEUS.

You are being lied to and cheated on. Get a VAR and put it in her car to gather evidence. She probably talks to someone in the car. DO SOMETHING TO HELP YOURSELF, ANYTHING!!!!

Hoping will not get it done.

Right now i dont have proof she is still cheating. just intuition. last night almost came down to divorce. before i make that ultimate move, i need physical proof. She knows the method i used to catch her previously (sent underwear to certified lab for semen detection). so, she can avoid that.

i'll look at VAR suggestions

You can also put a gPS on her car easily. And if she has an I phone that can also be tracked

Techies. Jump in here and help him

DG,

I've got a repeat offender on my side of the fence...two different APs four years apart.

I got there doing exactly what you are (not) doing. I got definative evidence that she dumped OM#1. Hell we moved 2000 miles away. Boy was I relieved. So relieved that I did NOTHING except thank my WW for staying and doing my best to be a better man so she would love me.

So it comes as no surprise that she found her way into another A.

So what if your WW ended it or not? You know the saying 'once a cheater, always a cheater'? Read it as 'once an unremorseful cheater, always a cheater'. Your WW is an unremorseful cheater. Likely she has taken this A underground, but your bigger concern is the next one (or four)

And FWIW, I found out after the most recent A that my WW had plenty of 'irons in the fire'. All of it was in her FaceBook history that she didn't delete. She wasn't in any sort of A with these guys but she was becoming known as the hot flirty girl around the workplace. You can imagine how many unsavory guys that attracts.

I suspect your WW also has lots of irons in the fire.

I'm calling a lawyer today for a consultation. I need to know how to handle this.

Why do you need physical proof?

What sort of proof? Photos? Tape? Signed confessions?

Why? It won’t have any value in divorce.

To me then demanding “proof” is like insisting on opening that laundry door I mentioned despite seeing and smelling smoke and hearing the fire behind it.

Fact is your wife cheated and all that you KNOW has changed is that you are not likely to find semen in her pants. That’s it.

She might not be in active infidelity this moment but her mentality is still infidelity. Until she confirms who the OM is, until she is totally transparent… She’s in infidelity.

Your wife is bluffing: she is confident you won't proceed with divorce; you don't have the will or the strength as you have demonstrated in your posts. She doesn't want to divorce; she wants her sexy affair and her marriage; [that short skirt was probably to tempt and excite the OM] and is determined you will not find out the details of her affair. Without the details and money, [you can't afford a PI] you cannot expose her cheating, since you have no absolute proof.

If you can obtain this proof you can expose her affair to your extended family; HR at her place of employment and most importantly the OM's family. I suspect she won't give you access to her phone and I-pad because the OM is married. She does not want her affair to end and she must stop you finding out the details.

So if you won't file for divorce and you don't want an open marriage, then you need to expose and end this infidelity. Your task is obvious; by whatever means, you must find out the OM's name. Can you work with someone at her workplace to find out this information? Pay them if necessary, but find out his name!

When you have succeeded its time for maximum exposure. If its makes her angry tough, but without the divorce threat its your only course of action.

Don't lose sight of your real problem. She has no respect for you and you have no value or status in her eyes. Ultimately you will have to win back that respect or the affairs will continue.

man, I was in your shoes 6 yrs ago. I got a(albeit crappy) job and put the kid in daycare. NEVER rely on someone else, IMHO.

Biggest mistake of my life was losing my career and trusting her.

We just fired our MC because she was working on the "moving on" part without actually addressing the A.

Whenever I'd mention that I felt insecure, like there was something still going on, our MC would say "she has already said she's not having an affair anymore.

A MC like that has no business talking to anyone. That is crap!

The MC obviously has never dealt with affairs before with comments like, she has already said and move on. Pure talk of someone who has no clue.

Do not tell your wife about anything you are doing. Do not tell her about your talking to lawyers, your plans or anything.

Anything you tell your wife now can and will be used against you later!

You do need to find out who this OM is. You never mentioned if there was anyone at all you might be able to talk to at her work.

Do you think she meets the OM somewhere that you could catch her at with him.

The best advice I can give if you think the A has gone underground and is still happening is for her to quit her job and find another one. Immediately.

Also, an extremely effective tactic to kill the A once and for all is to expose it to the light of day. Tell the OM's boss, his BS and his friends. It's not your secret. Exposure is the most powerful weapon you have. It may seem like an un-natural thing to do and I can assure you it did for me as well. But I followed others advice and did it and the OM turned on my WW within minutes of me telling his family/friends. The A died that very minute as it brought the OM's true colors out in a light in which my WW had never seen. He was no longer that nice guy who could do no wrong. She saw him for the person he really was after he lashed out at her and blamed her for their little secret becoming public.

If you think the A is still alive in any way, shape, form or fashion then expose it today!