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Toodevoted, thank you. I feel sooo the opposite of strong. Truly, I have fallen apart. I'm ashamed of who I am right now. This is driving me absolutely batshit crazy. It is taking everything just to keep my kids fed and clean.

What did you do wrong, that I need to avoid?

You've nothing at all to be ashamed of, you've just had an atom bomb dropped on your life. To give him the commit or walk talk when you can barely function really is strong. (((SoGutted)))

My mistakes? I think the only thing I got right is that I confronted that I knew he'd spent the night in a hotel with a woman. Even that I did without the evidence! He denied. I yelled and screamed. He said we may as well be over if I wasn't going to trust him. I said I would trust him one day if he always called me from hotels. That was it, it was rarely discussed again. Wasn't allowed to talk about it! Here I am 5 years on, 5 years of no trust and finally going back to what I should have done. So you've already NOT done the things that I got wrong

All I will say is don't let anything be rugswept, it never goes away.

Just take one minute at a time, step by step, don't think about tomorrow and post on here for lots of support

Wow..SoGutted...a lot of what you postd here reminded me of my situation. My WH had many 'midlife crises' throughout our 7-year marriage. All of them coincided with affairs. All of them included 'maybe I wasn't meant to be married' spiel and 'you're such a bad wife' accusations (which I believed).

His most recent crisis this March culminated in him spewing out such negativity at me I seriously thought he was going through something like mAnopause. This is also the first time he told me I was so bad that he was considering divorce.

I didn't see it coming at all. I was shocked and ready to believe that it was all my fault. After much reflection and research, however, I began suspecting that his MLC had something to do with his 'best friend' who we just moved away from. Especially since he was texting her day and night. And he started looking for more 'friends' online. Most of them women. He spent easily half to all of his time at home talking to them.

So...at some point, I began reevaluating everything in our so very bad marriage. Not only myself. What I found was that he's been cheating on me since year one (and when we were dating) and that I was very deeply hurt, had no respect or trust in WH and therefore could not possibly be the nice little wife he wanted me to be. We have rugswept a big pile of sh*t and it was beginning to stink big time.

When I brought this up to him, he seemed confused and went into all the standard WS behaviors of denying, minimizing, blameshifting, gas lighting, etc. So I said that divorce, actually, didn't seem like such a bad idea, after all, and did some version of 180.

Fast forward to now. Both WH and I had been going to IC. The 'best friend' turned out to be the most recent AP. They've been NC for three weeks or so and he is slowly coming out of the fog. No online girls, no texting buddies. WH has scaled down on defensiveness dramatically. He is still not where I want him to be as far as R, but for now, it seems to be getting better. My most recent d-day was a week ago, when he finally let me ask the who/what/where/when questions. It was quite a lot more than I knew before. And yes, the MLC and divorce talk had everything to do with his A.

Anyway, sorry for such a long response - i just thought it could give you some perspective. Your WH needs to see that you will be just fine without him and that his actions have tangible consequences (you being miserable doesn't count...fog makes it hard to see).

P.S. I am also a SAHM. I felt trapped. Still do to some degree. But once I accepted that divorce IS an option, I felt less of a victim and I think it showed to WH that I mean business.

P.p.s. I may be wrong, but i think your WS's depression is irrelevant in this case and is not an excuse for his messed up thinking. It is definitely not a reason to separate. I would be more inclined to think that he wants to separate so it's easier to live the single lifestyle.

*Hugs* So sorry you're dealing with this crap. I don't have a whole lot of advice, but wanted to say that your story is nearly identical to mine. Everything your WH is saying is the same stuff mine did when he was in his A...heck even the time of year is the same. Anyway, I too would be wary of the separation request, I agree he would probably use it to live the single life. And I'm very skeptical that your sitch involves just kissing...I wouldn't be shocked if they hooked up after a show. That's what my H did the first time, then he would see her after work. Went on abt 6 months. I was pretty clueless. He confessed the whole thing a few months after it was over.

All I can say is what worked for me and what my H was perfectly willing to do for R: NC with the OW means no contact, including gigs. Yeah, it's a public place but w/e. Neither one of us wanted to be anywhere the skank. My H had no problem quitting the band he was in in order to fix our M. So, just saying this probably needs to be another requirement for R...if he balks, then he's not being remorseful enough IMHO.

[This message edited by GonnaGetThru at 11:19 PM, August 28th (Thursday)]

So we talked more last night. He was able to pinpoint the exact moment he snapped and said "fuck it" and decided he was going to live his life how he wanted. He has felt for a while that I'm controlling and always telling him he's wrong. I'm still talking to him about why he feels that way and how he perceives things, but this has been an issue before the affair. So anyway, in January there was a family event he did NOT want to go with me to. It was out of town a couple hours and it was an all-day thing. I'd have taken all 3 small kids alone and I fought him to go with us and be a FAMILY. Gee, how horrible. He's antisocial by nature and I'm always urging him to go with us to things. It's a childhood thing his mom has told me, and that's just a hot button issue. Anyway, on this trip he lost his wallet. And he snapped. I remember how awful it was. He lost his temper with me, said he didn't give a shit what I thought, I was never telling him what to do ever again, etc. It was a big argument. He said last night that was his snapping point. At that point, he started thinking, maybe we aren't meant to be married forever. What does the alternative life look like if we're not married? And that was in January, amidst the depression and us not having been nurturing the marriage and communicating as we used to.

So anyway, he's not sure what brought him to message the OW and start up a flirt and then the affair. We're still talking through everything. But he's being very open with me and taking the time to think about things and reflect.

He said that maybe he didn't know what he really wanted though. He's confused. He doesn't want to make the wrong choice, and the burning desire to fix everything just isn't really there. He knows he wants to fix it, but then he thinks maybe it's just been dead between us too long and it's time to face it. I know in my heart he wants us to work, but he's scared that passion and spark won't ever come back. But what I know, is that we haven't communicated like this in a long time. What is upsetting to each other, what we want the other spouse to do, etc. I know that if we both communicate and work on our marriage, we can survive.

And he knows and has admitted that the affair is not a product of the marriage issues. He knows it was all him. But he is also not sure about our future because of those issues that pre-dated the affair. So he's said he just wants to live for a while, have fun together again, and rekindle that feeling back. He knows that will be incredibly difficult with this affair BS in our life now, so I think that's what's blocking him. Or not, idk.

He also got upset last night with me and said I was always telling him things. Telling him how he felt, telling him he was wrong, that the reality is something different than how he feels, etc. He said it has pushed him away from me because he feels like a child and like I'm not validating his thoughts/feelings and just telling him he's wrong. I guess this is something we need to bring up in counseling and I'm willing to look at and discuss. I don't understand how he sees it that way, but I know his feelings are real on this.

I'm feeling slightly optimistic, but I'm concerned he still has the "fuck it" attitude about our marriage. He's selfish, so very selfish. And when he was telling me about his mental break, he said he was tired of checking into someone, tired of asking permission to do things, etc. I told him I didn't want to control him, but I DO want to feel like my opinions and feelings are considered and valid. I don't want a husband that says "I'm going to do this. Deal with it." and then not care if I have a problem with that. That is not respectful at all. But I'm willing to talk with him if I have a problem with something and work with him on compromise. He said a few days ago he's very willing to compromise on things, but the things he was saying last night about his breakdown was very anti-compromise. It was all ME ME ME. That just won't work. So...one day at a time. And each day seems to be a whole opposite set of feelings and thoughts. One day we're doomed, the next we're going to be fine. What a rollercoaster shitstorm. :(

Well I am a firm believer that when your partner wants "freedom" you give it to them and then some.

Just seems like you are doing all the work, and he just.doesnt.care.

Why be in a M with someone who can take it or leave it? Id flip.the script on him. Tell him you've decided you deseeve better than someone with 1 foot out the door and have him leave. Hes completely taking you for granted.

I highly suspecthes still cheating too, either with the OW you know of, or others.

Id also tell him you insist on a polygraph. My bet is he'll refuse and use the fact.u requested one as an.excuse to separate.

What he is doing to you is cruel, and emotionally abusive. Thats why you feel so crazy. The fact he has the gaul to say you arent "handling it well" is one of the worst things Ive heard a WS say.

[This message edited by ShiningAutumn8 at 6:07 PM, August 29th (Friday)]

He is blaming you.

Go 180. Not for him. For you.

He sees you as controlling, because he doesn't want to control himself, and you call him on it.

You call bullshit when he's spewing bullshit, and you're not validating him.

Is anything ever his doing? Does he even know what an adult decision is? A commitment? A consequence? Or is he the poor little victim of everyone expecting him to man the hell up?

I would really recommend that he get s good deal of IC under his belt before you even begin to try MC with him. His cranium is lodged firmly in his rectum, and he put it there, and he wants you, and him and anyone else to believe it is a mystery how it got there.

It takes 2 healthy people to build a healthy relationship. It really seems like he is a long way from that, so MC with someone still so lost in lala land would be maddening, IMO.

Truly, he should be groveling and kissing your backside and begging you to R, and here he is playing poor wounded victim and fence sitting about whether to recommit or not. Bullpoop.

Read up on the 180, then put it into action. He's a mess, and nicing him back to reality is really not likely to work.

Eek, not to be the naive BS here, but I don't feel like he's blaming me. He's owning the affair and admits it was all his fault it happened. Do you mean that he brings up the marriage issues pre-A now, that it's a form of blaming me for the A? Or am I not seeing something that's so clear to everyone that has more experience?

Gosh, just when I think I have things right in my head, I read responses and don't know what to think. I do think she was the only one. It had just started getting racy and physical. I have texted and talked with the OW and her BS and all of their stories and timelines match exactly. I even have friends of the band that have talked with me about when they noticed her hanging around, giving him googly eyes. It lines up with the story. They've both sworn on their kids' lives that the whole truth is out, and from what I've witnessed in WH these past few months from all of the stress and anxiety and physical tension and pain, it couldn't have been easy for him to do this. He said it was the worst kind of stress he's ever experienced and he'd never ever do that again. He said not only did it really hurt me, but he wouldn't ever want to put himself through that stress and guilt again. He said he doesn't know how people go through long affairs, or multiple affairs and still live normally. He took PTO so many days because he had so much tension in his neck and back. He went to a chiro (something he'd never wanted to try but got desperate). His depression got SO bad these past months, that he almost quit his job because he just didn't want to get out of bed anymore. So I know that typically, they take the A underground, or are still messing around but I really think this was it and I have the whole of it. And if not, fuck me and I'm out. And I made it clear to him that I was walking away without question if that turns out to be the case.

He has always been selfish. But up until a couple of years ago, we always worked together and he was caring. We watched my 16yr old brother die on a family vacation while I was pregnant with our youngest...then the baby was born and he really wasn't keen on having another kid. I think those things triggered the depression (PPD) and he admitted a while back that he held resentments towards me for having the baby. He knows it's jacked up, and has apologized. But that built his little wall up even more against me.

After talking with him a lot, I think I can clearly see the downward spiral. What we haven't gotten into, is after his mental break in January, how it became possible for him to cross that line and start the affair. And continue it. He says he loved me during the affair, but I've argued against that to him. I think he resented me, and maybe even hated me. I think he was "rebelling" against me, like he was a bratty teenager rebelling against his parents that gave him rules. He saw me as controlling and manipulative and resented me. Whether he thinks it was intentional or not, I think the A was a way to get back at me for all this that he built up in his head.

Yes, he needs IC and I've told him that. But I think I can forgive him if he can see through that fog and realize that it's a temporary state and he can change it. Love is a choice, not just an emotion. He has been choosing to resent me. He needs to choose to love me now. We shall see. One day at a time, right? It's really more like one hour at a time right now. Sigh...

Also, I just read the 180 again and I'm torn. There are still questions I want answered - mostly the HOW and WHY it ever got to an affair. I also do want to fix our pre-A problems, and would like to discuss this more with him.

How do I do that and still practice the 180 though? I actually gave him the commit or walk choice and first he said he definitely wanted to stay and be committed. Then he said it was the right thing to do, to leave and figure things out. When I said I was asking for a MARRIAGE commitment, not a "things will work out for sure" commitment, he said he knows he definitely wants to stay and commit to our marriage and making it work. So I fear that if I bring up the walk or commit talk again, it will get his gears turning and he'll leave. He's already asked me if I WANT him to leave. I said no...that would mean divorce for me. Of course I don't want that, but it was his choice. He said he wanted to stay.

So if he left and we separated, that would just end in divorce because I can't work through things or trust him if he's not at home. Also, he won't choose IC on his own. But he'll go if I ask him to. So if he left to "figure things out" I know he'd just spiral into his depression and think "fuck it, I screwed it up. Call time of death." and that's not what I want at all. :(

I really think he wants us to work, but he's so jacked up in the head that he doesn't know what to think. He knows it will be work, and he's unsure if the work will fix us. Well, I'm unsure of that myself. Will I ever get past the betrayal and hurt? Hopefully, but I can't predict that.

So I think he's trying to come out of the "fuck it" stage. His actions since D-day have shown that he's trying to change his crappy husband behaviors and show me that he does care. I have noticed a lot of positive changes in him since D-Day, and it's nice. (Which then depresses me because if he'd just have done this before the A, we would be fine and not dealing with this crap.)

So confusing. It really is. And I know my heart is aching and I'm desperately wanting him to want this as much as I do. Which won't change his feelings, I know. But I know those feelings are down inside him and he's just not sure what to do. If he didn't have depression I think this would be so much easier. He's been in a fog for at least 2 years, on and off anti-depressants for over a year now. And he's had to change them a few times to find one that feels like it might be working. Of course, the A probably kept him in the depression, too, though.

AHHHH LIFE SUCKS

Try the polygraph idea. His reaction will tell you alot.

Tell him you want to move forward with trustinv hi and this wil be a huge step. If he agrees theb schedule it and go forward with it.

Overall it does not sound like you have mucg faith in him to choose you and improve himself and the M. By keeoing him at home, you direct the "reconcilliation" and do tge hard work. The thing is he needs to initiate healing, do the work and WANT to not lose you. Right now, youre more afraid to lose the M than he is it seems

ShiningAutumn8, yes you are absolutely right. I don't have faith that he'd choose me/our marriage if left on his own. He's in such a fog right now, that he doesn't even want to get out of bed most days. But I know him pre-depression and pre-A and I know his heart wants this marriage. But *I* cannot move forward with him if he's not here and showing me daily that he's a changed and remorseful spouse. And I need answers, and when we talk about things, it sheds light to both of us what has been going on in the marriage and during this affair. We have been reading things together and discussing. It feels like progress. But I KNOW I'm just way more hopeful than I should be, so my perception is probably also clouded on that.

If he's still in a fog, what brings him out of it to understand what he wants and how to fix this? I was hoping that discussing things and working through it together would do that. No?

I have read on the forums about polygraph tests. Is that something just anyone can ask for and do? How would I figure that out? I would love to have him take one. And he's been open to everything else I've asked of him. He shouldn't balk at this if it's actually possible to do.

If you think of your M as a person, one who is critically injured and lying in the ER. The A has gutted it. The pre-A issues in the M amount to allergies and rashes - nothing that are life threatening, but certainly need to be addressed AFTER the M is stabilized from the trauma of the A.

Look, M issues did not cause him to cheat. He chose to. Why? If he is like a huge number of WW before him, they like to blame the M - but that aint it. You were in the same M - did it make you cheat.

Giving yourself permission to cheat can come from a million different places. Cheating is sometimes a crappy unhealthy coping mechanism for deeper underlying issues. But if he truly resented you, there were likely 500 healthy ways to deal with that. He chose to deal by cheating.

In our experience, just the resenting me alone, was a symptom of H not owning that where he was in his life and M were the sum of his choices, and he had a script in his head as much or more than I did about what being a good H and father meant - and he didn't like to do all that stuff a lot of times - so he wasn't living up to his own expectations, but it was a lot easier to demonize me as controlling him by all my unrealistic expectations, than for him to admit that he was choosing to not live up to his own expectations. Shit, if it was his fault, someone might just expect him to do something about that, too. I shorthand it as his "victim-speak". He isn't a victim, he made choices and didn't want to fulfill the responsibilities but wanted the benefits - on a hundred different fronts.

Anyway, way too much baloney to say that why he was resentful, why he didn't own his choices, why did he choose what he chose, all that is good stuff for IC. And till H re-wrote all this crazy justifying dialogue in his own head, he was not fit company for MC, in my opinion.

So, not slamming him (or not anymore than I slammed my own H, I guess ), just saying he needs some true humble work in IC to get to the root of his decisions - which are all about him, not the M.

He was able to pinpoint the exact moment he snapped and said "fuck it" and decided he was going to live his life how he wanted. He has felt for a while that I'm controlling and always telling him he's wrong. I'm still talking to him about why he feels that way and how he perceives things, but this has been an issue before the affair. So anyway, in January there was a family event he did NOT want to go with me to. It was out of town a couple hours and it was an all-day thing. I'd have taken all 3 small kids alone and I fought him to go with us and be a FAMILY. Gee, how horrible. He's antisocial by nature and I'm always urging him to go with us to things. It's a childhood thing his mom has told me, and that's just a hot button issue. Anyway, on this trip he lost his wallet. And he snapped. I remember how awful it was. He lost his temper with me, said he didn't give a shit what I thought, I was never telling him what to do ever again, etc. It was a big argument. He said last night that was his snapping point. At that point, he started thinking, maybe we aren't meant to be married forever. What does the alternative life look like if we're not married? And that was in January, amidst the depression and us not having been nurturing the marriage and communicating as we used to.

This ^ is blaming you for being controlling and his unhappiness. *Newsflash: you are not responsible for his 'unhappiness'.

So anyway, he's not sure what brought him to message the OW and start up a flirt and then the affair. We're still talking through everything. But he's being very open with me and taking the time to think about things and reflect.

Excuse my French, but bullshit. He is not being very open with you. He has only told you enough, just enough so the boat isn't rocked too hard.

He said that maybe he didn't know what he really wanted though. He's confused. He doesn't want to make the wrong choice, and the burning desire to fix everything just isn't really there. He knows he wants to fix it, but then he thinks maybe it's just been dead between us too long and it's time to face it. I know in my heart he wants us to work, but he's scared that passion and spark won't ever come back. But what I know, is that we haven't communicated like this in a long time. What is upsetting to each other, what we want the other spouse to do, etc. I know that if we both communicate and work on our marriage, we can survive.

This is the fog of a wayward that has been making up excuses to have affairs. He doesn't know if he wants to fix it? Show him where the door is and tell him you are no one's second choice or maybe. How do you know in your heart that he wants to work on your marriage? Sounds to me like he is making excuses for another affair.

And he knows and has admitted that the affair is not a product of the marriage issues. He knows it was all him. But he is also not sure about our future because of those issues that pre-dated the affair. So he's said he just wants to live for a while, have fun together again, and rekindle that feeling back. He knows that will be incredibly difficult with this affair BS in our life now, so I think that's what's blocking him. Or not, idk.

It isn't what is blocking him. Its him trying to get you to rugsweep all of it.

He also got upset last night with me and said I was always telling him things. Telling him how he felt, telling him he was wrong, that the reality is something different than how he feels, etc. He said it has pushed him away from me because he feels like a child and like I'm not validating his thoughts/feelings and just telling him he's wrong. I guess this is something we need to bring up in counseling and I'm willing to look at and discuss. I don't understand how he sees it that way, but I know his feelings are real on this.

Blaming you. Blaming you. Blaming you. Its all how YOU are treating him. Thats why he is unhappy and has to message other women.

I'm feeling slightly optimistic, but I'm concerned he still has the "fuck it" attitude about our marriage. He's selfish, so very selfish. And when he was telling me about his mental break, he said he was tired of checking into someone, tired of asking permission to do things, etc. I told him I didn't want to control him, but I DO want to feel like my opinions and feelings are considered and valid. I don't want a husband that says "I'm going to do this. Deal with it." and then not care if I have a problem with that. That is not respectful at all. But I'm willing to talk with him if I have a problem with something and work with him on compromise. He said a few days ago he's very willing to compromise on things, but the things he was saying last night about his breakdown was very anti-compromise. It was all ME ME ME. That just won't work. So...one day at a time. And each day seems to be a whole opposite set of feelings and thoughts. One day we're doomed, the next we're going to be fine. What a rollercoaster shitstorm. :(

I am sorry you are on the roller coaster. Your husband is such a classic wayward. ILYBINILWY. Its all your fault. - There are members here whose WS has told them they had an affair because they didn't do the dishes and even more bizarre things I can't think of right this minute.

Look, your world has been turned upside down. Your husband is blaming you and the 'marriage' for his depression. Where is his ownership in his feelings and actions? He had an affair and you are doing all the work to try to fix things and fix him. Why? Because he continues to waffle between not knowing if he wants to be married (because you control him) and wanting it to work, but not if it involves too much actual work on his part.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh.

I think you should 180 for you to detach from him. Don't think about fixing him, worry about being the best you that you can be. If he wants to go along on that fabulous ride he needs to do the work. Right now he is letting you do all the work and telling you maybe he doesn't really want the marriage so you do more and try to be better for him. Be better for you, you are worth it!

Yes - stop trying to fix him.

I see this here so often - the BS basically comes up with all the affair reasons - childhood, depression, fog, fear, ...... Just stop. Not your job. Your job is you.

He is not in a fog. He is a functioning adult able to work and play in.2 bands. His affair and his current behavior is a conscious choice. He has not been possessed. Hes just fully.comcerned with himself only. You and the marriage are a distant concern, and mostly just to the extent it affects his comfort level.

Yes there are independent people who dp polygraphs. Google polygraph and your.city. Usually.costs $200 -$400, worth

Worth every penny, I meant to say.

I really think thats your best bet to start.

Id also take this attitude and say to him: I am going to take the next few weeks to focus on myself and healing from the devastation you caused me. If you decidd you want to make me and our marriage your priority, then your actions will let me know. (btw quit focusing on all his words and focus just on his actions). If in a few weeks your actions havent shown a level of comitment then we can discuss separation.

Then get into IC, work out, see friends - focus on YOU and getting strong and learning that even without him you will be fine if it comes to that.

SoGutted, Your head must be totally spinning with finding out all of this stuff, and probably an overload of advice and opinions from all of us, unfortunately we speak from experience. Here is my two cents worth.

He put the wall up between the two of you, built up some resentment toward you, then took the wall down, seems to me he blames a lot of these things on his confusion. What is wrong with him does he have a mental illness? (not being rude here, genuine question. You have been together for a while and the spark has died? Guess what if he feels that way then he hasnt been doing enough on his part to keep it alive. If you want it you have to work at it. You also said that he got angry when you asked him for his email because he wasnt expecting you to ask for it? Why was he angry, did have something to hide? Keep checking all of his accounts especially the social ones.

I dont think he can think of reconciling unless he is ready to commit to you and the children, sitting on the fence doesnt count.

There is no doubt in my mind that you love your WH and are willing to give him another chance, I am all for giving people a chance to right the wrong, as long as they are in for it as well. I think the best advice I could give is keep watching him, watch his actions, see if he is doing what he says and hopefully he will.