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I respectfully disagree that calling a man a cuckold is the equivalent of calling a woman a whore. Most people I know would have to go to the dictionary to look up what cuckold even means.

Being a cuckhold is something that was done TO you. You had absolutely no say, which is even further emasculating. Acting like a whore and then being called one? Not the same thing.

(Just to be clear, I'm not calling anyone a whore).

I respectfully disagree that calling a man a cuckold is the equivalent of calling a woman a whore. Most people I know would have to go to the dictionary to look up what cuckold even means.

How do you know how a man feels if he is called a cuckold? It is a blow straight to his ego. It says he can't please his woman while another man can..and he allows it. It's emasculating to our testosterone driven ego.

I do not know what it feels like to a woman to be called a whore, but if it feels like being called a cuckold to a man...I can connect the dots from there.

TG,

My message was not specific to PL and her BH.

More than just PL and her BH read here.

Even if what we write is specific to a certain person, or couple, it's the internet and our message has the potential to reach billions.

I advocate for women who are/have been emotionally or physically abused.

You want to call me a whore, fine.

However, I stand by my message: TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT.

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 2:03 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

I wanted to address PL's start to this thread. She asked if she was a wh*re and if others would perceive her that way.

My question to you PL, which seems to be the question you're asking yourself, is why would anyone else's perception of you that you are/aren't a wh*re even matter? I mean that to be a question to motivate some introspection and not asking you to answer us on on SI. We don't need that answer. You do.

If you do see yourself or your actions that way then what is your next step?

I attended an AA meeting a long time ago with a gf. She was there in support of her brother. Everyone who stands and speaks starts off admitting "Hi, my name is John/Jane. I'm an alcoholic (and/or addict)." They did not hang their heads in shame. They did not state it with pride. They simply owned this fact of who they are. It was an important step for them in changing their future and reclaiming their lives.

I do not know nor do I care if there is any distinction in saying "I was a wh*re" or "I acted like a wh*re" or "I wasn't a wh*re but I was <insert whatever description>". The critical part is whatever name you call it you own it. You own the past behavior because if you own you can change it. You change and any way you describe it will be "was" not "is". You own it and change it and in the end it won't matter what anyone else says because you know who you were and who you've become.

That imho is growth and healing and the reason we come here.

How do you know how a man feels if he is called a cuckold? It is a blow straight to his ego. It says he can't please his woman while another man can..and he allows it. It's emasculating to our testosterone driven ego.

How often have you actually heard the word "cuckold" uttered at a man as an invective? But whore, slut, bitch--all these words? Bandied about constantly as a means to degrade women.

^^^^^What Brandon is saying exactly.

Sunnyrain I am a FWW, my H called me a whore once. Did it bother me at the time, yes. I figured out why and it no longer bothers me. I acted like one once. I no longer do. I can own my past actions. I can own who I am now.

How often have you actually heard the word "cuckold" uttered at a man as an invective? But whore, slut, bitch--all these words? Bandied about constantly as a means to degrade women.

I admit that is not a word used often, yet it's the meaning behind it that is the concern. What does quantity have to do with being offended...but I will digress

My BH asked me if I enjoyed sex with my AP - I told him yes (this was something that I told him before).

PL,

I have a different focus/question. First of all, do you still reflect on sex with your AP as enjoyable? As a BS, this would be a HUGE issue. I could not handle the idea that my WH looks back at that as enjoyable.

Disgust would be more like it. And if he did look back on it as something he enjoyed I would immediately think "Then why wouldn't he do it again?" After all, he ENJOYED it".

I guess I'd expect it to be like going out, getting drunk, and doing something stupid. Sure, you enjoyed it while you were in the middle of doing it. But I'd hope reflecting back on it you'd get a pit in your stomach and think "Oh God, that was awful, I'll never ever do that again!". If you looked back and said "Damn that was fun!" What prevents you from doing it again?

Can you clarify if you still do reflect on the sex as enjoyable? And be honest. If yes, maybe this something you should explore in IC?

Lastly, he's asked you this more than once? People usually do that when they're hoping for a DIFFERENT answer. That might be something you guys want to explore as well.

Just another perspective from a BS....

I think one of the biggest difficulties BSs suffer when they try for R is the (perceived or not) complete destruction if their most basic values.

Ticking nailed it. This is so true. I never gave a serious thought to cheating on my wife. To me it would have been an unspeakable betrayal, and my libido is as healthy as anyone else's. Yet I find myself attempting to R with someone who over a 10-month period cheated easily and often, stopping only because I caught her. There's your cognitive dissonance.

Unless you've been devalued like that by someone you love and thought you could trust, you really can't grasp the magnitude of the devastation. Imagine trying to make sense of that while keeping your sanity.

You tend to get a bit pissed off at times, to put it mildly. Pissed off in the sense that you often feel like the demon spawn of Mt. Vesuvius and a hydrogen bomb.

in what is supposed to be a marriage in recovery 18+ months PAST D-day is likely not doing any couples any favors.

Sunny, you say that like 18 months is a significant period of time. I'm there now and can tell you that I'm just now starting to feel human again, as opposed to a walking wound. On bad days I still feel like a walking wound sometimes. Finding out that your beloved wife and the mother of your children was another man's personal play thing for an extended period of time tends to do that to a guy. It was only about 4-5 months ago that I started to gain back some of the weight that was lost post D Day. 18 months is just getting warmed up, in my opinion. But I do see your point here:

Two wrongs will never make a right.

Exactly right. It is NEVER acceptable to call your spouse ugly names, but it happens. It comes from a very dark place of almost indescribable rage and pain. I think the solution for the wayward is to set up firm boundaries with that type of behavior while at the same time having some empathy and understanding what you did to put your spouse in that ugly and dark place to begin with. A tough balancing act I'm sure.

Wow. Since I went to bed, got up, went to work and finished work, this thread blew up - I guess this was such a sensitive subject. I want to get a chance to respond to what many of you are saying but I am on my way to IC shortly (where we will definitely be discussing this thread). I will come back to this thread later and respond to the questions that were being asked of me. SI is always thought provoking for me - it makes me think about WHY I am thinking about things a certain way and it pushes me to learn more. Sometimes it is hard for me to see the other side of things, and SI helps.

I want to thank my BH mpb1974 for posting on this thread. I am sorry that he felt attacked or bullied. I appreciate that he was brave enough to share his thoughts on the Wayward forum.

I will come back to this thread this evening.

don't compare calling the BH a cuckold and the WW a whore or slut

Being a cuckhold is something that was done to you and you had absolutely no say in it .

acting like a slut and then being called one is not the same thing

how can a WW be offended by being called a slut even if she know that she acted exactly like one ?

sometimes we should own up to our mistakes and try not to be that person anymore ?

[This message edited by sazart4 at 3:12 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

***General warning to all***

Thank you.

but does he get to call her that for the rest of her life?

I think a time period of doing this is understandable. Necessary even. But once in an active recovery the name calling should be off the table.

While I understand that some name-calling can be expected for a short period of time following D-day, encouraging bad behavior (because hey, we deserve it) in what is supposed to be a marriage in recovery 18+ months PAST D-day is likely not doing any couples any favors.

I am just curious as to who decides on the timeline. What is exactly an acceptable amount of time for a BH to demonstrate so much pain that expletives come out? Obviously 18 months seems too long. Saying that it's understandable for a 'short period of time' but not at 18 months sounds too much like he should just get over it already. Yet you don't need to be a veteran to know that 18 months is hardly enough time to 'get over it'.

So it makes me wonder more then what is the time line for a remorseful WS to find her 'why'. Is it more than 18 months? What if pl takes 3 years to find her why and really own her behavior? What if it takes 5? Does her BH get stalled in his healing? Because after all, they are in R together, right?

Does it not make some sense that mpb might be having a harder time moving forward because pl is stuck? The two go hand in hand. I can say that from my personal experience that HT's anger began to dissipate the more I dug and owned my behavior. The more issues I resolved, the safer he began to feel. I don't know when exactly it happened. It was spread out over the years. More intense in the beginning but as time went by fewer and fewer. Until one day you wonder, 'how long has it been since we had a major trigger?'

I think that timeline is different for everyone. Pl will find her why if she keeps digging. And mpb will work through his anger. R requires patience and understanding. All in good time.

Sunnyrain: While I understand that some name-calling can be expected for a short period of time following D-day, encouraging bad behavior (because hey, we deserve it) in what is supposed to be a marriage in recovery 18+ months PAST D-day is likely not doing any couples any favors.

For the record, I'm personally against encouraging disrespectful behavior (name-calling, etc.) whether it's 2 days after D-day or 25 years after D-day.

It (my quote above) was NOT meant to imply that I expect a BS to be over the affair in X amount of time. A BS, IMHO, can mourn the loss of their M for eternity if that's what they need to do.

Encouraging a BS to work towards more productive ways to deal with their hurt, anger, confusion, loss, anguish, etc., is, IMHO, a more positive way to recover and heal (both individually and as a couple).

Thank you for allowing me to clarify my opinion. I understand, and am okay with the fact, that not all will agree with my personal opinion.

[This message edited by sunnyrain at 6:42 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

This thread is a huge reason why I take almost everything with a grain of salt.

WW says the BS called her a whore, as in "you're a whore!"

The BS says he used in the context of "I would think of that person as a whore", as in a generalization.

I don't think either are lying or spinning things to their end. I believe they see the truth through their own eyes. I think sometimes people are too quick to pick sides and gang up, which I find incredibly counter intuitive.

[This message edited by Dark Inertia at 6:55 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

Does it not make some sense that mpb might be having a harder time moving forward because pl is stuck? The two go hand in hand. I can say that from my personal experience that HT's anger began to dissipate the more I dug and owned my behavior. The more issues I resolved, the safer he began to feel. I don't know when exactly it happened. It was spread out over the years. More intense in the beginning but as time went by fewer and fewer. Until one day you wonder, 'how long has it been since we had a major trigger?'

So good.

and after reading mpb's first post this comment rings loud and clear.

I don't think either are lying or spinning things to their end. I believe they see the truth through their own eyes

Peace pl and mpb.

Peace and healing to you both.

I'm back. Thanks again for everyone taking the time to respond to me. I am going to try to address as much as I can.

WOES

I M throwing this out there because you mentioned that you let your AP use you. Keep in mind that you used him as well. There was a trade being made. You have him your body and he gave you some sort of ego kibble. Otherwise why keep going back?

You are right. If I wasn't getting something back (ex: ego kibbles), I wouldn't have been giving him sex or would I am continued to. I repulses me a lot that I would equate any good feelings to what I was doing. I no longer equate them, though. It is absolutely repulsive what I was doing.

tearsoflove

I was called a whore in college, which fucking hurts. I was promiscuous - I was desperate for men to like me.

I'm saddened for you when I read this. I've met many girls who grew into women believing that the way to a man's heart was through his penis. Most of the time, that doesn't work out. The way to a man's heart is to become a woman YOU love and enjoy the company of. In other words, love yourself first.

I think this started when I was pressured to have sex at 15 with my 19 year old boyfriend (who I was sneaking around my parents back to see because my parents didn't want me dating someone so old). I think that defining moment fucked me up irreparably in my future actions. I never learned what constitutes healthy sex/sexual relationships. My BH is the only person that I have had a healthy sexual relationship with, and even that has been marred by my attitudes about sex, his attitudes about my past sexual baggage, inability to orgasm, etc. I am working in IC to have a healthy sexual relationship. I don't want to think of sex as dirty or illicit. I want to think of it as healthy and beautiful - it is going to take me some time to get there. My BH does ask what I need from him sexually and he is trying his darndest. I just need to work to remove the negative attitudes from my head so that I can move forward and be healthy.

cissie

I would like to print this whole thing and take it to my therapist.

I plan on doing the same thing. Hope this thread can help you like it is helping me.

naiveagain

pizzalover, why do you feel you need to accept poor behavior from others?

Why do you allow yourself to be used for sex? I know you said you enjoyed it while you were having it, but afterwards you felt used.

I agree that your BS probably won't heal until he understands why you did what you did. You still don't understand why you did what you did.....how deeply have you looked? There is always a reason....

Have you done any IC? Have you dug at your FOO issues? Somewhere I think you got the idea that you could gain acceptance from others by sex, and you are needing that acceptance from the male population. Why do you need male acceptance and approval? Where do you think that is coming from?

ETA: Name-calling has no constructive purpose. It needs to end. At this point, 18 months out, you both need to be completely on board with the reconciliation. He is obviously still going to have some hurt, but he needs to express that in more honest, integral ways than by name-calling. Have you two read "Not just friends?" It is a really good book that can help you both understand each other a bit better.....I suggest reading it together, out loud, to one another and discussing anything that hits home.

You raise some good points. Why do I allow myself to be used for sex? I am not sure. I am not sure why I kept doing that to myself throughout my life. My BS asks me why I would have put myself out there to be used for sex when I had him. It may, once again, come down to the defining sexual experience I had a 15 to show me that in order to get male approval, I need to give sex (or at least how I equated the 2). But, thinking like my BH, why would I need male approval from anyone else when I already had his? That is a question I don't know the answer to.

I think that I have determined my whys, but I am still digging as to the causes of each (example in #1, I am trying to figure out why I have such intense need for approval. I will accept from people if these whys are not acceptable whys, or if you could help me dig a little more into them. :

1) intense neediness and need for approval

2) low self esteem

3) wanting things about AP/OBS family that I thought that I didn't have - issues with my own FOO

4) earlier sexual foundation that was skewed (technically I was raped, not forcibly, but I was pressured into something that I was not anywhere near ready to do) - reverting to that subversive past that sex is dirty and illicit

5) lack of boundaries that were established at a young age as well as a an ability to engage in self-destructive behaviors

6) subconscious/unresolved need for children (even though I have determined I don't want kids, I definitely latched on to their family and children)

7) trying to fill an emptiness/void within self

8) an extreme sense of self-centeredness

9) my bipolar diagnosis - I say this lightly, because I don't want to blame a disorder on my choices. Plus, I was diagnosed after my suicide attempt while I was in the behavioral health ward. My IC feels that I have cyclothymia, which she calls "bipolar lite". I have exhibited many of the symptoms such as: stealing, promiscuity, lying, impulsive behavior, etc

* I will also add issues with my BH, however they irrelevant to starting A, but could have been a contributing factor - I want to be clear that he didn't cause me to cheat and is not responsible for my A , but the issues may have been a piece to the puzzle. They caused cracks in our relationship foundations, which adding to my other issues, made me more vulnerable to stepping out of my marriage.

I am in IC. We are working on FOO issues, especially those with my mom. I have posted about her before; about the shame and embarrassment that I have toward her. It's interesting in regards to family, I was talking to IC tonight and she was asking me if I got enough attention from my family. I always thought that I did - they were always there for me in everything that I wanted to do (girl scouts, dance class, marching band) - but maybe they actually weren't giving me all of the attention that I needed. I am going to continue to investigate this in therapy.

We read Not Just Friends shortly after D-day, but perhaps it would be a good reread to do together.

tangledknot

Rather, you were a hurt, broken woman. I think you should look back on your past self with compassion.

I will try.

20wrongs

Are you telling him that his words hurt you?

I do and I will continue to. I don't want to take away from the enormity of his pain though. My actions hurt way more than his words ever will.

itainteasy

Why is that? Why do you need outside validation? Why do you not think that who you are to begin with isn't good enough for anyone? Are you working on this in IC?

I am not sure why I need outside validation - I know I don't get it enough internally. I was talking tonight in IC that I need to give myself a pat on the back when I do a good job. For example, when my students get something, I need to think, "I am a good teacher. I did this." instead of putting myself down. Maybe I don't think I am good enough because I was told by many of my peers growing up that I was ugly, not cool, etc - I was definitely bullied and it had probably more of an effect on me then I realized. I am working on this in IC.

sal1995

What both of them need to focus on is that this is PAST behavior. If this was PL's current mindset, I doubt she'd be on SI working through her issues. I hope mpb is able to focus on that and get out of this destructive cycle.

You are right Sal, This was my past behavior. I am here and in therapy so I can fix myself and my marriage. I am all in for getting as much help as I can.

20wrongs

You apologized, I'm glad to hear it. Sorry you felt bullied, you certainly don't deserve that.

Thank you 20 - I appreciate that and I am sure that my BH does too.

tiredgirl

I am going to have to go along with what WOES said here. If it is bothering you that much, figure out why.

I also agree with the fact that your H is really stuck right now because you seem to be so stuck in IC as to why this happened. Maybe you need to look into a new IC.

I do hope that mpd is going to his own IC as he is responsible for his own healing as well.

I am going to figure out why it is bothering me so much.

I am going to stick with my IC, because I feel that she is helping me greatly, but if down the line I feel that she can't be of anymore help to me, I will consider what you said.

Yes, he is in IC.

Adamsapple

Pizza Lover:

The same is true of your signature. Is being "Repulsed daily by my actions" helping you reach your goal or is it simply causing you to feel bad about yourself everyday?

My signature line probably doesn't help in my healing. It does make me feel bad about myself, and I will think about what I would now like it to say. Thanks for your thought.

Aubrie

I don't understand why it's so dreadful that he said your past actions were whorelike. They were! That's who we were. Is that you today? What do you feel about yourself? What do you think you were back then?

I think it was dreadful because I am not the person now. He didn't say "you were acting like a whore then." He said "You are a whore" - this to me means present tense. No, I am not a whore now, but I was engaging in whorish behaviors then. I don't even like thinking that I could stoop to such a low level, but I have to accept that that part of me was a part of my past, but it is not who I am now.

Brandon

My question to you PL, which seems to be the question you're asking yourself, is why would anyone else's perception of you that you are/aren't a wh*re even matter? I mean that to be a question to motivate some introspection and not asking you to answer us on on SI. We don't need that answer. You do.

It matters to me because of how others perceive me matters a great deal. I am digging to find out why it matters what others think. I don't want to feel that way. I want it to only matter to me what *I* think. Baby steps, right?

cliffside

PL,

I have a different focus/question. First of all, do you still reflect on sex with your AP as enjoyable? As a BS, this would be a HUGE issue. I could not handle the idea that my WH looks back at that as enjoyable.

ABSOLUTELY NOT. I no longer look back on it as enjoyable - now. But at the time I looked at it as enjoyable, which is sickening to me. I can see what I was doing clearly now, and I have no good feelings about it.

[This message edited by pizzalover at 8:54 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

PL,

Good - maybe you need to make sure your BH knows this? Maybe offer it to him, just tell him it makes you sick? Again, I only question why he's asking you more than once. Like maybe he needs a different answer or clarification that you do not view it that way now? I don't know all of the history of these questions and conversations so it's just a thought.

That is actually a good list, and it explains why you looked outside yourself to a point, but you do need to go a bit deeper and figure out the whys of those questions....

trying to fill an emptiness/void within self

Questions for this one...."where does that emptiness come from, why is it there, what can you do to fill it in more healthy ways?"

intense neediness and need for approval

so, everyone enjoys getting positive attention from others. In fact, positive reinforcement is a proven way to teach children and has shown to work even better than punishments. So everyone does enjoy getting approval, but for some, their very lives seem to depend on that approval. I am thinking you are saying you feel that approval from others is THAT important. So what you have to work on is why. Why do you NEED that approval so badly? Did you not get it when you were younger, so you are seeking it now? Did you feel ostracized when you were younger? You said you were bullied. That can cause some PTSD type symptoms and also make one feel that there is something inherently wrong with them. Do you feel that now you are older, you need to keep proving that you are acceptable?

low self esteem

This one can come from so many places...FOO, childhood acquaintances, sensitivity to failure.....and the way to work on this is by rewiring the part of your brain that feels you are not good enough. That is an issue for your IC to help you with. Hopefully, they will give you some homework to do regarding building your self-esteem.

I think it is awesome that you are working so hard on this stuff. It is truly hard work. I also think that there has been enough beating yourself up and feeling bad about yourself, and it is time to truly change your idea of who you are and where you are going in life. I think it is time to stop focusing on the name-calling and start moving forward. You have grown, you are changing. You are no longer what you were 18 months ago. And I do think reading the book again together and answering some of those questions in there may help you dig even further. You are in a different place now than you were 12 to 18 months ago, so you may have more insight into some of the questions in there. It can be a good, bonding, deepening experience for the two of you if you can both talk honestly about what you are reading.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 8:51 PM, September 8th (Monday)]

cliffside

Good - maybe you need to make sure your BH knows this? Maybe offer it to him, just tell him it makes you sick? Again, I only question why he's asking you more than once. Like maybe he needs a different answer or clarification that you do not view it that way now? I don't know all of the history of these questions and conversations so it's just a thought.

I have told him that it makes me sick now. That frustrates him because he wanted me to be sickened by it then when I was doing it. I think he keeps asking me things over and over or discussing the same topics because he is trying to make sense of my illogical actions. He is a very logical person and I am very emotional. I was not thinking logically during my A. I can be more logical now when I talk about the A because I am looking at it from a completely different perspective.