SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First of all- thank you all for your amazing posts which have helped me so much over the year or so I have been dealing with this nightmare called my marriage.

I need immediate help with a serious crisis:

I have suspected my WW was having an affair with her boss for several years. When she quit to stay at home with our kids, she went into a deep depression about losing that relationship which she always maintained was a just a friendship- more like a brother and sister relationship rather than anything inappropriate.

After many arguments and continued questions, my WW suggested a lie detector test to set my mind at ease and remove the suspicion. I agreed that it would put my mind at ease and tried to schedule the test. WW delayed for months and ultimately refused to take the test citing any number of objections. This only increased my suspicions and it came to a head. She finally and very reluctantly agreed to take the test.

She failed the test at 90% and 100% chance of deception. She continued to maintain that she was telling the truth. Based upon her insistence that she had not had sex with him, a second specific issue test was administered. When that test was performed she failed again at 99% and 96% chance of deception.

In the post exam interview, my WW admitted that there was sexual attraction in addition to the friendship but it was never acted upon. She also admitted some non-sexual but inappropriate contact but she later recanted all of these. Examples: he kissed her in a way in which his lips may have touched the side or her lips (later changed story to air kisses), hugged her when he had erections (later…wasn’t sure if he was erect), fondling of her breasts (later…he picked lint off her dress collar) and even that she may have been in his hotel room when he was wearing boxers (later said she couldn’t remember if this actually happened or was a dream).

WW maintaining her innocence stormed out of the office in a fit of rage accusing the polygraph tester of being a charlatan.

We drove home largely in silence and I moved out.

The following day, I spoke to the polygrapher at length and he assured me that the results were conclusive. He also said that her reactions to the failed test were definitively consistent with someone who was lying in his experience.

My WW pointed to a number of research studies she found on the Internet that claim that polygraph tests were unreliable generally and completely unreliable for infidelity issues since the stakes were so emotionally charged. She also found that the polygraph tester may have overstated his experience.

Maintaining that there was no sexual contact, she asked me for another opportunity to be tested by a more experienced polygraph tester of her choosing and contacted a divorce attorney she knew for a referral to the most respected person in the field. At this attorney’s recommendation, she scheduled second (I guess really a third) polygraph with this tester with 35 years experience.

She failed again with similar 90% plus indication of deception.

After that test, my WW revealed that she was in fact in love with her boss (which started perhaps 20 years ago) and that is why she failed the tests. She continued to maintain that it was more like a crush and that there was never any sexual contact between them. She says that I just have to believe her and ignore the tests since they are inherently flawed according to the research she found.

Still separated and on the verge of divorce, my WW asked if I would attend a marriage crisis retreat and I agreed. In that retreat, she revealed to the therapist (not me) that she was emotionally abused by her parents and sexually abused as a preteen.

The therapist says that my WW developed a series of masks she uses to interact with the world in insulate herself from pain and suffering. She says that my WW doesn’t really exist as a distinct person…she lives through these masks. Although she wouldn’t offer a diagnosis, it sounds like the definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Virtually everyone in her family has a neurological disorder including autism, Asperger’s ADHD, OCD, NPD, cutting, anorexia/bulimia, and suicide. She also said that I have been traumatized so severely that I need years of therapy and that I must be a part of WW's treatment or she will never get better.

Trapped.

I moved back home to try to figure out what to do.

This was about 2 months ago.

I have been living day by day trying to save my family.

I am right now in the middle of a 4 week vacation with my WW and kids. We have be having a great time and she seems to be treating me very much better. She seems different on a daily basis.

And yet…I am sweeping all the facts under the rug and just trying to get by for my kids. I know that the tests are conclusive. I even engaged a polygraph expert who was at the CIA to review the test results and offer his interpretation- he said it was 100% conclusive.

I know there is more to the story but the lies are consuming me.

I cannot continue to live like this.

I am soliciting help in any and all areas of this including the hardest doses of reality.

I truly do not know what to do.

(((DoubleZero)))

I am so, SO sorry you're going through this.

SO let's at least make sure we are on the same page.

Your wife had an affair. Absolutely 100%. Cheated on you. Failed the poly, no questions asked.

She also said that I have been traumatized so severely that I need years of therapy and that I must be a part of WW's treatment or she will never get better.

The bolded part above, is total and complete bullshit. It sounds to me like the IC is fostering codependency.

I absolutely believe you've been traumtized and need therapy. What you DO NOT need is to be saddled into an unhealthy dynamic where YOU are given the burden of being responsible for HER recovery???? No fucking way!!

I'd be finding yourself a new counselor yesterday if not sooner. I've spent YEARS in counseling unlearning codependent behaviors. This has all my spidey senses on high alert and there's about to be a defcon 5 warning going off somewhere shortly.

Unbelievable.

You need to take care of yourself. She needs to take of herself. Those things are not dependent upon one another.

WTF.

You said you are trapped by her therapist's suggestion that she cannot heal without you. But what about you? Can you heal with her as a life partner? If not, your loyalty must first be to yourself. You cannot sacrifice your life for someone who may never change.

From your description of events surrounding the polygraphs, it sounds as though you are dealing with a pathological liar. I don't think she even knows how to tell the truth and she very likely believes the lies she is telling you. For all you know her therapist is advising you on the basis of lies told to her/him by your wife.

Double,

They aften say it is the lies and TT that kill the marriage more than the sex.

Now either after carefullresearch of examiners only two things can be the truth

(1) all three poly examiners are totally incompetent, crooked, and totally wrong. On top of that your CIA friend is also crazy.

(2) your wife had a long term PA with this guy and is lying to you totally.

Your choices are clear. Either you suck it up and digest the lies and let some issues be used as an excuse.

OR

You leave the relationship and refuse to live with the rug sweeping and lies.

Only you can make that choice. You will be a better long term parent not swallowing your dignity and self esteem, but I understand how that is hard to see.

I'm a pretty logical person. I don't think you need polygraph results, though they are very damning. Your gut told you to get a polygraph. Your experience with her tells you she's lying on a much deeper level than the surface.

In my case, my husband swore he didn't sleep with the second affair partner. He had me look him in the eyes so he could assure me that he didn't. But it gnawed at me.

What I ended up doing was writing myself a list of why what he was saying might be believable and why it was not. When I was done, on the possible reasons to believe I had two things: He said he didn't. She said he didn't. I then asked myself why I would believe those two things when they'd been caught in multiple lies and crossed them out. I then looked over my list of reasons why him not sleeping with her were implausible. There were 17 items. 17 logical reasons why what he was saying sounded like total bullshit. I knew right then he was sleeping with her. I'm not even sure why I needed to hear it from him, but I did. The one thing I never needed was a polygraph because there was no logical reason he wouldn't have slept with her but there were a lot of logical reasons why he'd lie his ass off about it.

I sent him an email appealing to his conscience. I told him that I was going crazy every day when he left for work and that I spent every night alternating between crying and searching. I told him there was no way it would stop as long as it didn't add up. I only gave him 10 items on my list of why I couldn't believe him and I listed the 2 items of why I might and also why I crossed them out. I told him if he ever loved me, he would put me out of my misery. He came home that night and told me everything.

The difference here is that your wife is a selfish person. My husband, by nature, is not. The affair was out of character. Make your list. You know the truth. And if the truth is that you have every reason to believe she's lying and no reason to believe she's telling the truth then you need to move on and heal yourself. Not only is it not your responsibility to heal her but you are unlikely to heal with her because she will keep ripping off your bandages.

[This message edited by Tearsoflove at 9:56 PM, August 24th (Monday)]

I feel like I am getting NEGATIVE TT...

Everything she admits, she recants, minimizes, or completely denies.

She only admits truths when I catch her in a logical fallacy or contradiction.

I cannot make a decision without the truth. I am willing to consider a real reconciliation but only with full disclosure. I am being consumed by the not knowing. It is haunting my waking and sleeping hours.

We have been separated 3 times in the past year for probably a total of 2 months. It was very difficult for my 2 DSs. Older DS is Autistic and he would be devastated by the disruption of our family unit resulting from a divorce. I also do not think my WW would be honest about the reason for a divorce and place blame on me.

NPD--or any personality disorder-requires very careful diagnosis (after much testing), by a psychiatrist specializing in the diagnosis of personality disorder.

They generally are refractory to treatment, though very motivated individuals may learn new behaviors. Typically these are used when--again--very motivated. For example, my profoundly personality disordered stbx was motivated to seek diagnosis and willing to undergo testing, which is fairly unusual. For a short time, he applied himself to CBT, but when it became apparent that (a) people still had expectations that he would repair damage done (and cease causing more), and (b) the adoption of new behaviors precluded his use of customary manipulative and other behaviors, he stopped. The payoff wasn't great enough. I was supposed to "just get over it." After all, he went to a doctor!

Your WS's therapist may not be the one to handle this magnitude of problem if a/he insists you are central to the process. That's just not true; only your WS can change the way she thinks, feels, or acts. You can support her, but her healing is her own. No matter what.

Just as your healing is yours.

You do not have a remorseful WS at this point. Your involvement poses a risk to YOUR emotional well-being. I'd let the therapist know you will consider participating in couples' therapy when you've seen sustained evidence it is emotionally safe for you to do so-- -and then, with the guidance of a therapist who also has YOUR wellbeing at heart.

For now, MC is in the future. Your WS needs to do some SERIOUS individual work--Preferably after diagnosis by a psychiatrist specializing in PD. Her ability to heal hinges NOT EVEN A LITTLE on your participation. That is just 100% bullshit.

[This message edited by solus sto at 9:56 AM, August 25th (Tuesday)]

DoubleZ

The tests work. Period.

I know this sounds crazy but your wife is crazy.

I think you need to be there for the kids. Not for your wife.

Have you ever gone to her boss and asked for the truth?

I would let him know exactly how sick your wife is and ask for the truth so her IC can help her deal with her issues.

If you don't need the facts then find a new IC and figure out your next steps.

HM

Wow tearsoflove, I did the same thing.

After five months of TT I told WH if he truly cares about my well-being he would give me a truthful written timeline. He did and it was brutal!

Doublezero, you need the full truth from her with all the details. I think it's impossible to move forward without it.

I'm so sorry that she has created this mess for you and your children.

You will get through this.

{{{Hugs and strength}}}

DM...Do you think I should talk to OM. I know him and his xW and current wife very, very well.

He is an experienced and serial philanderer.

I have considered talking to him.

Why would he give me anything but more lies and back her story up? He has his own marriage to protect..though I heard that his current wife wants out too.

Double Zero,

I am assuming you have reviewed the DSM=V definition of Narcisstic Personality Disorder. Nekorb is totally right!

I absolutely believe you've been traumtized and need therapy. What you DO NOT need is to be saddled into an unhealthy dynamic where YOU are given the burden of being responsible for HER recovery???? No fucking way!!

Its so easy to want to buy in, but I totally get why you are trying, you have 3 kids, one with special needs.

Do you really need the polygraphs to understand the truth and that she is liar? Truth is she had an A, truth is she lied about it, has for a long time. Whether you get the whole truth, will it set you free, or will it imprison you and embitter you? Each person has their own pain tolerance level. You have to figure out how much pain you can or are willing to endure or should have to endure going forward?

I see a breakdown coming for you on the horizon (only because I had one myself) and I still have no truth or admission. While you want to believe the best, be prepared for the worst - You already know there is an A and her admission may never come, particularly if she's pathological or has NPD.

Just take care of yourself and your kids, worry about yourself and your kids, and put one foot in front of the other, for right now! Get yourself some new professional help, someone who can help you deal and heal! Maybe you have issues, but that's NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is that SHE invited AP into your M, you were not part of that decision. She doesn't have to be included in your decisions right now! She forfeited that right when she had the A, and lied about it when confronted!

And I also think you have to consider that she is delusional? When faced with 3 differing opinions, one of her own choosing, the conclusion is the same! If it walks like a duck, Dude!

Stay strong! This is just the beginning. You have only gone on one round of the rollercoaster! Strap in man, you are in for a ride that is terrifying at first, but after a few rounds on it, the hills don't seem as high and the valley's not as low, the twists are not as shocking and the turns are anticipated!

It is not easy being here in JFO, its devastating! We are all here to help!

Get some sleep!

((Double Zero))

Want this to stop.

Do not talk to the OM. You will regret it no matter what he says. You'll give him way more power than he deserves and he will use it. And, yes, he will lie.

Do not ever let him think he was important to you. He could have been anybody who flattered your wife. Anybody. He is not important. He is just a worthless piece of trash who doesn't deserve your time.

You don't need to know the truth to make a decision about what to do right now.

Please understand that knowing the truth is probably utterly impossible. How would you know? What form of proof could you get that would satisfy you? And proof of what? That your wife lied her way through three polygraphs, and then finally admitted she was in love with the guy? And full disclosure? What exactly, would tell you that you have that? That the stories finally become consistent? That you stop getting conflicting information?

You want to save your family? I suggest that you should save yourself first, first and foremost, you need you to be a healthy, fully functioning person. Living with a liar and a cheater will tear you down and do serious damage to your self esteem, and worse.

You CAN make a decision without knowing the truth. You can make a decision knowing that you are not able to tease out lies from truths, fact from fiction.

I suggest you consider divorce as possibly the better course of action, despite its downsides it may be the best hope you have for sanity and a happy future. Your kids, special needs or not, will be able to adapt, ESPECIALLY if YOU are HEALTHY, and not living a mind-fuck anymore.

There are several men here who have been through the wringer with their NPD cheating wives. Their attempts at reconciliation were devastating to them.

((((DoubleZero))))

Welcome brother, I'm sorry that your here. With all the bold faced lies and trickle truths you have gotten you MUST assume that her sudden stories about emotional and sexual abuse could be lies as well. And even if these claims are true you certainly do not have to attend years of therapy in order for your WW to heal. Its like telling the spouse of a drug addict that unless they too attend rehab in their spouse wont be able to clean themselves up. Its simply bunk, your WW needs to heal herself. While it helps that you support her in the process your direct involvement is certainly not needed. You cant heal her, you cant do her work, she and she alone must do the work. And any mental health professional worth anything will tell you that a person must be honest about their situation in order to begin the process of change. You must admit your faults first, then begin to work on them. Right now your WW has don't nothing but lie and when she could not lie any longer she is blaming her behaviors on past abuse. Abuse that is highly speculative I may add.

[This message edited by stronger08 at 5:29 AM, August 25th (Tuesday)]

She sounds like she has a lot of foo issues that you are aware of, but I tend to agree with stronger08, her sudden claims of abuse are highly speculative.

Doublezero,

I agree with many of the others here.

First of all, this has been at least a 20 year ?? emotional affair and probably a long term physical one as well.

She has blamed you, gaslighted, lied, trickle truthed and never came clean.

One thing is concerning me in what you said, that you can't make a decision without the truth.

So what I am suggesting is that you DO have the truth. She had a long term affair with her boss behind your back. YOU have the truth, she's a proven liar.You have the truth. YOU can't handle this anymore and your life is tearing apart at the seams. I don't know how you can 'fake it' for 4 weeks on vacation.

1) Have you been advised legally ?

2) Have you looked into changing counselors ? A competent counselor would be helping you heal from the pain she caused you, not the other way around

3)Tearsoflove had a good suggestion. However, I don't think your WW has it in her capacity to follow along with this. How old are the kids ?

I understand that you feel trapped between her revenge tactics, the failed polygraph and the affair. However, if you don't let yourself heal, she certainly isn't.

R on your terms, and if she can't do that, you have to consider D or at least start the process to wake her up.

It also sounds like she could be Narcissistic. You may want to have a VAR on you at times where things could blow up.

You will not find peace with things going like they are now.

Make a gameplan and stick to it

You could stay and suffer through, but even if you do, there is no guarantee that she will fix herself. It could all be for nothing. Don't do this to yourself.

Heal yourself, let her go to counseling and work on her own healing. If she makes inroads and commits to continuing to do the work great. When significant progress is made you can THEN decide if it is too late to try depending on where you are in your life. Don't put yourself on hold with the hope she can get better. A hope and a prayer won't fix this.

Trust your gut. It is screaming at you. Listen.

DoubleZero, my WH is somewhat like yours very abusive past that was never dealt with until the the of finding out he is a serial cheater and a narcissistic person. My WH's therapist also asked my IC if I WAS a good candidate to help my WH with his therapy.

I feel your situation wholeheartedly as my WH is changing stories constantly and at a time I need to get recovered from the devastation I'm being put on the spot to step up and be his healer in this mess.

I feel like when is it going to stop being about him and when I'm going to get some emotional resolve. It's a tough spot to be in, I just think to myself that I am strong enough to do this, I was blessed with a healthy upbringing and this may be my place in his situation as the stable one mentally.

I have a D filled but have put it on hold as my WH gets therapy, specifically he's doing EDMR therapy for childhood PTSD.

I just think to myself that this is my journey right now in life, for some crazy reason I've been put here for a reason to aid this broken person in their recovery. Im a spiritual person so I think of it as my test so to speak, my chance to prove myself. Right now it's my peace.

[This message edited by Crazytrain101 at 1:35 PM, August 25th (Tuesday)]

I can’t believe this is my first post, sorry for the spelling, but English is not my primary language.

I am usually not a very open guy, so I have been using the site like a lot of people like me I suspect, just looking and reading third person experiences and adapt them to my situation.

But this time I just can’t let it pass, and I forced myself of my self-imposed isolation because it seems no one is thinking of this.

HOW ABOUT A SIMPLE PATERNITY TEST!!!!, you say your wife had a long time affair, maybe this is way she is denning to the end.

If you don’t want to do this , maybe there’s a chance just the blood type is enough, for instance, if both you and your wife are O-type , and one of the kids is like B-type or A-type or even AB-type, then he/she is not your son/daughter.

I am so sorry to be the one bringing this up, but if it came to my mind, its because I have seen it happen to someone that I love, just a stupid coincidence of a donors blood card of a proud 18 year old boy/son, and the uncle (MD) that seeing the blood type on the card and knowing his brother blood type , called him to the kitchen to inform him that is son was not his son.

If there’s no mathematical chance, because of something that was not on the post, then I am profoundly shamed of even bring it up.

Hope that I am completely a wrong ,

Skywalker...I have paternity tested one of my sons. Confirmed. He looked a little too much like OM and had some recessive traits I was concerned about.

I think I am going to PT my older son to rule it out. However, I remember the conception. After 3 failed IVF cycles, a bottle of chardonnay on a Saturday afternoon did the trick!