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Just Found Out :
I Now Have An Inkling Of What To Do

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eric1 ( member #47762) posted at 7:46 PM on Friday, October 2nd, 2015

I think that is a very healthy outlook IMHO. You're done trying to control what you can't control.

posts: 1040   ·   registered: May. 4th, 2015
id 7361924
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WornDown ( member #37977) posted at 8:16 PM on Friday, October 2nd, 2015

Walloped -

I think your doing great and have this pretty much figured out; as much as anyone can make sense of the BS that is infidelity.

But I just wanted to make a comment on this:

her affair was a message that she did not want to remain married.

For some WS, I don't think this is true. For those in exit affairs (where they already checked out long before the affair) this is true. But in your case, not really.

It seems your WS got caught up in the whole attention thing. She just wanted the ego kibbles.

But I don't think (from what you've described of your W's behavior after DDay) your WW falls into the exit affair category.

Me: BH (50); exW (49): Way too many guys to count. Three kids (D, D, S, all >20)Together 25 years, married 18; Divorced (July 2015)

I divorced a narc. Separate everything. NC as much as humanly possible and absolutely no phone calls. - Ch

posts: 3359   ·   registered: Jan. 2nd, 2013   ·   location: Around the Block a few times
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 Walloped (original poster member #48852) posted at 8:36 PM on Friday, October 2nd, 2015

WornDown - I completely agree. What I wrote was poorly worded. An affair in general is a message. Intent had nothing to do with it. In a way, it is marriage ending, because even if you reconcile, you don't have the same marriage you did before. What I meant was that by having an efface, she opted out already, even if she didn't intend to actually leave.

Make sense?

Me: BH 47
Her: WW 46
DDay 8/3/15
"Every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa the bad things don’t necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant.” - The Doctor

posts: 1816   ·   registered: Aug. 6th, 2015   ·   location: New York
id 7361998
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Foley05 ( member #48459) posted at 2:39 AM on Saturday, October 3rd, 2015

W - One way to interpret what you're saying is that you consider your wife to have left the marriage, i.e. divorced you, already, and that what you're now pondering is essentially whether to remarry. Does she see things that way, or does she view it as having been married all along, just that she had this other thing going on the side? It sounds like the latter. If so that's a huge chasm and one that will need to be bridged, somehow or other.

[This message edited by Foley05 at 8:40 PM, October 2nd (Friday)]

posts: 239   ·   registered: Jul. 1st, 2015   ·   location: Central US
id 7362231
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nekorb ( member #40306) posted at 3:17 AM on Saturday, October 3rd, 2015

If she then chooses to up and leave...well...it won't hurt more than her affair did and I'll be okay. May not like it. May rant and rave about her selfishness, etc., but I'll be fine.

That's all I was concerned about - that you'd be fine if she left and have at least given the possibiliyt of it some thought. That's a really good place to be in when trying to R, actually.

I agree with WornDown that your WW was not having an exit affair. My WH was having an exit affair, and I can tell you his behavior is the polar opposite of your WW's.

Keep on truckin' Walloped. You're doing fine.

Me: BS 44; Him: WH 47 M - 22 Years
D-day: 7/2013; D filed 7/2014; Divorced 7-27-16
...the WS affair starts off in a dreamland where everything is all Golly, Wow! and Meant To Be! and Soul Mates drop from the trees to frolic in the mist. -devotedman

posts: 5796   ·   registered: Aug. 13th, 2013
id 7362271
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happyman64 ( member #33212) posted at 3:25 PM on Saturday, October 3rd, 2015

W

An affair in general is a message. Intent had nothing to do with it. In a way, it is marriage ending, because even if you reconcile, you don't have the same marriage you did before. What I meant was that by having an efface, she opted out already, even if she didn't intend to actually leave.

I agree with what you stated above. But that is your perception.

Your definition of infidelity. And yes many our posters views of infidelity.

But many times an affair is simply her message that she is unhappy with herself. She loves you. never intended to leave you, the kids or the marriage.

Is it sad she could not tell you she is unhappy? Yes. Did she choose a selfish vehicle to announce her unhappiness? Absolutely.

Your wife needs to do the hard work on why she is unhappy with herself.

You need to determine if you can still love her and respect her enough to stay married to her.

If you both come to the same conclusions then you both have to decide what shape, form and direction your new marriage takes.

Because you both might not be satisfied with the old marriage.

Just some food for thought....

HM

posts: 1971   ·   registered: Aug. 28th, 2011   ·   location: New York
id 7362485
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tiredness ( new member #49144) posted at 6:43 PM on Saturday, October 3rd, 2015

Setecastronomy - I certainly wouldn't advocate starting MC right away for couples where the WS hasn't accepted their fault and has some idea of the reasons for their affair, nor if the WS isn't willing to work (or try to work) toward R. In W's case it sounds like Mrs W is there and is continuing her exploration through IC. I think if you wait until the WS has a full understanding of "why" then you could be waiting years. In my case, my WH is finding that MC is helping with that process and gives him more to ponder in IC.

Agreed that it is critical to find a MC who is an expert in infidelity and whose client is the marriage - not either spouse.

California111 - you asked what my IC recommends doing when my brain wanders and goes to dark places. (Sorry - I'm not able to use the quote function on my smart phone)

We talk a lot about "mindfulness" in my sessions. The concept is about being fully present and experiencing the now, rather than dwelling on past events that can't be changed or worrying about future events over which you have no control. This doesn't mean forgetting about the past or not learning from what happened, but is intended instead to provide focus on current events and what you can control right now. Keep in mind that I could only start this once I had completed the obsessive questioning stage and was satisfied that I had all of the information I needed about the affairs.

The first step is to recognize when I'm not controlling my thoughts or when I'm going down a dark path. It was hard at first but I'm getting better at interrupting my thoughts after practice.

The second step is to do something that requires a singular focus so that all of your attention is diverted into one activity. Some people do concentrated breathing exercises. (I can't do this as it inevitably results in hyperventilation. :)) I personally prefer doing math puzzles (geeky I know) or intricate colouring. I've also heard of people doing rock climbing (you definitely need to focus) or other physical activities requiring concentration. If I'm having trouble sleeping because of a busy brain, I'll visualize writing out numbers from 100 backward (ie ninety-nine, ninety-eight, etc). I'm usually asleep by the seventies.

Once my brain is stopped I can resume what I want to be doing.

Hope that helps.

posts: 8   ·   registered: Aug. 21st, 2015   ·   location: Canada
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optimisticalways ( new member #49742) posted at 1:20 AM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

W.

Have you read Donegone's posts? He sounds v much like you.

Wishing you the very best

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california111 ( member #48976) posted at 4:19 AM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Tiredness,

Thank you so very much. That is hugely helpful and I really appreciate it.

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kimichi ( member #47377) posted at 9:10 AM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Probably. But that would be my decision as (at least now) there's no way she's choosing that option. I can offer her a 7-figure settlement and divorce or nothing and we stay married and she'll pick the latter every time.

You are not her. She is not you.

[This message edited by kimichi at 3:11 AM, October 4th (Sunday)]

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id 7362982
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 Walloped (original poster member #48852) posted at 2:55 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Emotionally exhausting day yesterday. Had a very long discussion with my wife but it was really good - or as "good" as these things can go. I opened up to her and it allowed her an opportunity to hear how I was feeling and to respond without the typical breakdowns.

I've told a few people this idea, which you've supported and which was proposed by another SI member. Not to replace MC, but as a way to open up communication between me and my wife regarding what I've going through and how she can help me heal moving forward. It resonated with me, especially since the key roadblock I had was not being able to let her know how I was feeling. Every time we talked it was more of a "I'm hurt. You caused it." "I'm so sorry." Kind of a thing. Anyway, here's the idea, which I followed through on yesterday. And thank you to the one suggested it. I really appreciate it.

Let's assign a name to my wife for ease of use - we'll call her Susan for this example (obviously not her real name)

The suggestion was that I tell my story, but not to my wife. Instead I tell it to my oldest and closest friend who has known me since we were teenagers. To Susan.

I should tell her that I need to talk to my old friend, Susan. Not my wife. Just to Susan. And that I should ask Susan if she will listen to a story about two people. And after she listens if she as Susan will tell me what she thinks about the story.

Then I begin at the beginning. But tell it as a story, about two people. That I know these people, these two people. A man and a woman. When they met the man was a boy, and the woman was a girl. The boy was this, that, and the other thing. And to him the girl was this and that. And they fell in love. I should tell how the boy became a man, and a husband and a father. How he worked, what he thought about and felt about his life and about the girl who became a woman and his life partner.

And that one day, this guy's brother came to him and said I have something terrible to tell you, and then tell Susan what the brother told the man about the woman.

And I keep telling the story. Tell what the man felt, is feeling. Tell what thoughts he has, the ones that intrude. Tell Susan what the man is afraid of. Tell her what he thinks he wants, and why he doesn't know how to get there.

Then ask her what she thinks. About the man, and what he is feeling. And ask her what she thinks the woman is feeling? What does she think the woman is afraid of? What does she think the woman is thinking and feeling?

The idea is to let Susan offer words of comfort for the man in the story, words of compassion, regret and remorse for his hurt. To let her also offer words of compassion for the woman and how vulnerable and terrified she is.

The key is to not talk to "my wife" as I don't really know who she is now. The point is to talk to my closest friend to help me understand the story about these two people and where they are and how they got there and what they should do.

I liked the idea because it's not about laying guilt or blame or recrimination at her feet. It’s engaging her to be part of the healing process. For both of us and possibly see a way forward. Again, not to replace MC. But as a way to open lines of communication, which had been pretty closed.

And so I followed through on this. And recorded it because it was important to me to be able to listen to it again. I knew it would tough and emotional and therefore honest and I wanted to retain that. Anyway, it took a long time. It was so helpful. I sort of disassociated myself from the whole and was able to really share my thoughts and feelings about this guy Walloped. Of course she cried the whole time, but she never stopped watching me as I was telling this story. She didn't interrupt. She just listened and cried.

I told her so much. How shocked I was when my brother told me. How lost I was. I did not tell her about SI as I'm keeping this place for me still. But I told her about the mind movies. The need to know more and all details. The lost trust. The not sleeping or eating. The attacks. The anxiety. How I lost my best friend and how that best friend did the absolute worst thing anyone can do to another person. How emasculated I feel. How much pain I'm in. How scared I am. How I'm frightened for our family. The anger. How part of me wants to just kick her out, while other parts wants to pulverize her, yet other parts keep telling me I love her. How I still can't comprehend this whole thing. How alone I feel. How abandoned. How I feel like such a failure in life. How I battle between knowing things intellectually and letting that knowledge penetrate. And how I know what I want but I have no idea if I can or we can or how long it will take or if she even wants to and what this all means for us. And is there even still an us? How I feel compassion for what my wife must be going through now and yet a big part of me is disgusted with myself for felling that way. How conflicted I am. And I kept going until I couldn't. I hardly looked at her the whole time. I stared straight ahead. Don't think I could've done it otherwise.

And when it was her turn to talk. And talk she did. How horrible she feels for the man in the story. How sad she is for him. How kind and compassionate and loving he is and only such a person would be so conflicted because others would just walk away. How terrible the woman feels. How scared she is. Scared that there are parts to her that let her do this to the person she lives most in the world beyond her babies, and scared about her life and future. And what's worse is knowing it was all this woman's own doing. How this woman must feel she can't ever forgive herself and doesn't see how anyone can forgive her either. How ashamed she is. How all she wants to do is make it better somehow but she knows she can't. And it kills her. How she has to live with the fact that her husband will never look at her again the way he used to. How she is working so hard and is trying to understand why so that she can ensure this will never happen again so she can offer some small comfort to her husband just in case he chose to remain married to her. How she abused his trust and love. How terrified she is and how she just wants to feel safe and secure and wrapped in his arms and told he still loves her but tries to push those feelings away because she thinks their selfish and how dare she? How nothing she shared with POS even came close to the depth of feelings of love and warmth and passion that she had with her husband and she was the biggest fool and child in the world. How it sickens her when she thinks of what she did with POS and how she must imagine it sickens me and so how she must sicken me and how can she continue on knowing she sickens her husband? How she wants to make love to me so badly to show me how special what we have is and to show me how much she loves me and wants to be with me, but how hypocritical she thinks that is, because she obviously didn't value it if she gave it away to someone else for some cheap thrills to feel good about herself. How she's lost. She knows who she wants to be but doesn't know how to get there. How she always thought she was a good person but how can she be? And I deserve to be married to a good person. Not someone who can cause so much pain and hurt and not just to her husband but to her babies. What kind of mother hurts their own babies? What kind of evil person must she be? And no good, decent father would ever tolerate anyone hurting his kids, so how can he even stand to be in the same room as her? How she wishes she could turn back the clock, but she can't. How she just wants to hold me and hug me and shower me with soft kisses and tell me it'll be okay and make the hurt go away. To help me and protect me, but how can she? How can she do that when she's the one who inflicted the pain?

And on and on. It was basically the whole day. We hadn't talked like or opened up like that in 2 months. It was draining but it also felt good. As we look toward starting MC in a couple of weeks, it was good to share this. When we were done and were both a sniveling mess, we agreed to try and be open and honest about our feelings with each other and about each other as much as possible - even if it's uncomfortable.

I guess I'll call this progress. Hope everyone had a good day.

-W

Me: BH 47
Her: WW 46
DDay 8/3/15
"Every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa the bad things don’t necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant.” - The Doctor

posts: 1816   ·   registered: Aug. 6th, 2015   ·   location: New York
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 3:39 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Tipping a half-full glass of a very good Rioja wine in the general direction of NY and saluting you (two).

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

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HobbesTheTiger ( member #41477) posted at 4:07 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Thanks for the update. Even reading that was exhausting, so I can't imagine how hard it was for you two. I'm glad you did it, as it sounds like it helped you.

Best wishes

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id 7363158
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1492 ( member #44831) posted at 6:24 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

You two are on the long hard road to R,but you will make it. It is worth fighting for.

Dday June 2012
BW age 63 on d day
WH age 64 on d day
2020 it’s been a long road

posts: 1136   ·   registered: Sep. 10th, 2014
id 7363257
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rambler ( member #43747) posted at 6:59 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

I am sorry, she sounds more like regret than remorse. They is a lot of self pity and rug sweeping.

You need to question her story in the context, but you said it was more. You need to address this for yourself and I suspect it the real reason you are not in R.

You both need to address the hard issues. Stop running from them, stop hiding them.

making it through

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id 7363288
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eric1 ( member #47762) posted at 10:34 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Me too.

All that stuff about "sex being cheap" because she gave it away - revisionist/rug sweeping bull caa caa.

She fell in love with some dude and had sex with him as part of their relationship. It's pretty damn simple and something that she just needs to own.

posts: 1040   ·   registered: May. 4th, 2015
id 7363401
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susieque2 ( member #49694) posted at 11:05 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Big thumbs up W for making the first BIG step in your recovery!! Yeah - it will take time (and be painful) but isn't that what life is all about -- making mistakes then growing from what you learn -(in this case it was WS mistake but you too will learn from it and discover things you never knew about yourself - your strengths and your weaknesses).

I'm very hopeful for you and your family - you are very thoughtful and analytical in regards to your actions and I believe your wife has it in her to heal you and herself with time.

We are all spiritual beings having a human experience!

posts: 450   ·   registered: Sep. 21st, 2015   ·   location: The World
id 7363418
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 Walloped (original poster member #48852) posted at 11:15 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Rambler / Eric - I don't get it. I really don't.

I don't believe I said anywhere in my post above who should own her affair or that she didn't own her affair. Ownership wasn't discussed except at the very outset when she talked which I did not include here. But this wasn't a post about that. I asked for her feelings. Her fears. I asked her to open up and tell me selfishly what's on her mind and she did in the spirit of honesty and openness. Even if it made her look bad. Because I told her that's what I wanted. For us to be okay communicating. Because I was hitting a roadblock and wasn't telling her how I felt and wasn't allowing her to do the same, thereby stunting any chance we had. So I took a risky but thoughtful suggestion and it worked. And I posted about it.

Does every single conversation we have must begin with her owning her affair? Is it...

Me: honey, what's for dinner?

Her: Spaghetti & Meatballs

Me: Whore! You didn't own your affair! Don't try to rug sweep it with talk of food!

Is her "correct" answer supposed to be...

Her: I am so sorry I hurt you and caused you this pain and betrayed all that is good and holy in the world and nothing you did contributed to it as it was all my fault as I am such a low, heartless bitch who was just looking for a little excitement on the side and wholly took advantage of your good nature and trust, who incidentally happens to be making Spaghetti & Meatballs for dinner.

Is that how every conversation is supposed to go?

I'm being an asshole but I'm also asking seriously. Is that what is supposed to happen? Because I don't get that.

I need to take a break from here for a bit...

Hope you all have a very pleasant evening.

-W

Me: BH 47
Her: WW 46
DDay 8/3/15
"Every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa the bad things don’t necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant.” - The Doctor

posts: 1816   ·   registered: Aug. 6th, 2015   ·   location: New York
id 7363424
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WornDown ( member #37977) posted at 11:25 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Does every single conversation we have must begin with her owning her affair? Is it...

Me: honey, what's for dinner?

Her: Spaghetti & Meatballs

Me: Whore! You didn't own your affair! Don't try to rug sweep it with talk of food!

Is that how every conversation is supposed to go?

No.

Walloped, you and your wife are doing just fine. As good as anyone can hope to be at this point.

Me: BH (50); exW (49): Way too many guys to count. Three kids (D, D, S, all >20)Together 25 years, married 18; Divorced (July 2015)

I divorced a narc. Separate everything. NC as much as humanly possible and absolutely no phone calls. - Ch

posts: 3359   ·   registered: Jan. 2nd, 2013   ·   location: Around the Block a few times
id 7363430
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WornDown ( member #37977) posted at 11:25 PM on Sunday, October 4th, 2015

Does every single conversation we have must begin with her owning her affair? Is it...

Me: honey, what's for dinner?

Her: Spaghetti & Meatballs

Me: Whore! You didn't own your affair! Don't try to rug sweep it with talk of food!

Is that how every conversation is supposed to go?

No.

Walloped, you and your wife are doing just fine. As good as anyone can hope to be at this point.

Me: BH (50); exW (49): Way too many guys to count. Three kids (D, D, S, all >20)Together 25 years, married 18; Divorced (July 2015)

I divorced a narc. Separate everything. NC as much as humanly possible and absolutely no phone calls. - Ch

posts: 3359   ·   registered: Jan. 2nd, 2013   ·   location: Around the Block a few times
id 7363431
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