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if you're angry, you're angry, whether other people would be or not. but i think i'd be just as angry about this sort of think as any other bs.

what else is going on with edith - how has she changed, if at all?

how would you see yourself if you D'ed? my guess is you're driven to succeed, and you'd rather live through the possibly hidden failure of a bad m than than the open failure of your m.

screw success and failure, bro! focus on knowing what you wan't an how likely it's attainable. i know you want a good m with edith.

is that attainable? are you at the point where you should throw in the towel? (only you can answer that.)

you've grown a lot, np5, and i'm happy for you. i wish edith has grown more than she has.

umm...why didn't you or edith offer to switch with the guy's wife or ask him to switch with you? i've always done that it seems abnormal not to - jmo.

I’m saying this because I had the exact same belief when I was with xww, and I now know better.

she is far more chatty with guys. She has always been friendlier with guys than girls. I think that's because she is so cute.

Just look at that for a second… you are blaming her actions on her looks? No. She is friendlier with guys because she loves the attention they give her and the ego kibbles she gets from it.

because she is so cute. Guys would be open to befriending her

Guys might be more inclined to go after her because she is cute, but that is not for ‘friends’ which means it is attention that a married woman should stay away from and make her less friendly to them.

and girls might be a little self conscious / standoffish.

While this may apply to a few women, it is not nearly as many as you would think and in general I believe would only be those who see her as competition, which isn’t a problem if she is taken and acts that way.

After getting to our hotel room I was kind of thinking I would fly back home in the morning...

I've talked with her a while about it and there were some things I didn't know sitting two rows back...

1) Edith asked to have him change seats with me, but he was wanting to sit next to his wife, and this was the best he could do to be next to her.

2) Edith talked to his wife as well and they all three talked together about me, the kids, my navy time, our travels, etc.

3) Edith wanted to just sit and read, but couldn't get to her book. She was just trying to be polite. Her mom had always always told her to talk on the phone or go to the door and talk when guys came calling or came around in high school. She was never allowed to decline. She was taught very poor boundaries and is trying to get better. It's just that she has had 40 years of training and practice. She was just doing what her mom had always told her to do--be polite and attentive. She just didn't think I was two rows behind her steaming...

4) She was upset, not because of me feeling bad or anxious, but because it was 2am (Eastern Time) and she was exhausted and just wanted to sleep so bad. She gets upset when she is hungry / tired / hot / in pain. DD2 is like that too. I really came down on her after we deplaned and wouldn't let it drop after she apologized.

5) She is very sorry she put me in that position and said she will try to be more mindful.

We watched Brooklyn last night. She cried tons during the movie and apologized again for doing what she did. She told me she tried so hard to break it off and she did. She said, like Eilis, she came back. She came back. If you haven't seen it do so. It will trigger you, but it's a beautiful movie.

I want a happy marriage with Edith. I really do. We both, individually, have a lot of personal work to do. We are doing it but it is taking a long time. There will be bumps--huge ones. I think it is still attainable.

She is slowly starting to understand the male / female dynamic when it comes to attraction / friends / sexual attraction. I've tried to tell her how guys can be / are, but she is very reluctant to believe me! She really thought the OM just wanted to be friends! By the time she learned he wanted more, she was already hooked by the ego high of his attention.

She needs to know it wasn't just a one off thing. That's what happens ALL THE TIME.

Our first MC, the one we went to as she was fully in the PA during, told us it was her opinion that men and women could no longer be close friends after they were married. That it was inappropriate and too dangerous. Edith though that was CRAZY! Edith now admits that she was right. Or at least that's what she tells me now. I hope to hell she has taken that to heart, because my heart just can't take any more abuse.

k8la,

And he says he wants me to let my walls down. Ain't happening in this century at this rate. Walls are built because there's a threat. Until I can see he has truly changed and has my back, and isn't going to force my walls down - but rather, he'll take over the vigilance I've had to have, hell no these walls are never coming down.

I've been trying to let my walls down. Even more than before the affair. I let her into my thoughts and I am much more expressive of my feelings and concerns. If I don't express them then who will? If she screws me over again, then we are done. I'm coming up on 3 years soon of this torture. That's enough for me.

I went on this trip, not to make sure she doesn't cheat, but to make myself not be stressed. I am confident she is done with cheating. I wanted to just hang out, drink coffee, beer, wine and not have any kids around for a while. I wanted to walk around and see a new town. That's what I'm doing and I like it!! Kids are great and all, but with 4 daughters and a 5 year old boy, I needed a break.

Hmmm. Really? You were close enough you saw her chatting her ass off with this man. Surely, if she was speaking to someone across the aisle,his wife, you would have noticed?

Why didn't she switch seats with his wife?

She didn't really want to talk, she wanted to read, but just couldn't cut the conversation off?

So she is willing to cross boundaries, rather than be polite and ask a stranger to allow her to read her book?

Or..switch seats with his wife.

Was the guy poking her and refusing to let her sleep? Maybe he did tell same to you when you closed your eyes after a few minutes

There's nothing anybody can say that will out talk edith.

However,

She really thought the OM just wanted to be friends!

Your wife may believe her lies quite thoroghly. But don't get caught up in them. She dragged you through hell and back for a year and a half with this "just friends" bullshit. And then another year with we were just laying around naked, nothing else.

No matter how much you want it, you can't make your wife love or care about you enough to get it. And you can't make her get it either.

And on the opposite side - no clue that this wasnt crossing boundaries left and right? First question I'd have would be how many other "friendships" she had like that

So of the things you numbered how many do you actually believe? Which of them fit with what you saw/experienced?

I can tell you that from an outside perspective very few of them seem realistic to me.

1) Edith asked to have him change seats with me, but he was wanting to sit next to his wife, and this was the best he could do to be next to her.

2) Edith talked to his wife as well and they all three talked together about me, the kids, my navy time, our travels, etc.

3) Edith wanted to just sit and read, but couldn't get to her book. She was just trying to be polite. Her mom had always always told her to talk on the phone or go to the door and talk when guys came calling or came around in high school. She was never allowed to decline. She was taught very poor boundaries and is trying to get better. It's just that she has had 40 years of training and practice. She was just doing what her mom had always told her to do--be polite and attentive. She just didn't think I was two rows behind her steaming...

4) She was upset, not because of me feeling bad or anxious, but because it was 2am (Eastern Time) and she was exhausted and just wanted to sleep so bad. She gets upset when she is hungry / tired / hot / in pain. DD2 is like that too. I really came down on her after we deplaned and wouldn't let it drop after she apologized.

5) She is very sorry she put me in that position and said she will try to be more mindful.

I do believe she believes the above. What do I think now?

She likes the attention of other men. It makes her feel beautiful and appreciated. She likes attention from women, but men give her ego a bigger boost. I would too! (from women that is) But I chose to avoid the ego boost on most occasions because I feel I am susceptible to having an affair. I do. So I have identified a weakness and I take special care to avoid playing with that fire.

Edith revels in it and refused to (before the affair) consider that she was susceptible. If I suggested she was doing something borderline, she would criticize me and tell me I was being insecure. OK, so I let her befriend the other man because I wanted to prove I was secure. She failed spectacularly. She now admits I was right. Great. Nice to know now I was right. Now she wants to say that my concerns are invalid, but she can't and that makes her frustrated and sad.

She still wants to have my confidence and my approval that a proven safe spouse deserves. She no longer has that and she is frustrated that she no longer deserves it. It will be a long time before she deserves it, especially at this rate.

I do think that after 20-30 minutes she got the ego boost she desired and started to tire of the conversation. After that she was just being polite. I see now that the man was older (but not much older than her OM) and was retired. How was I supposed to know that sitting behind her? He had the head of hair of a 40 year old.

All I'm asking for here is that she consider my feelings when dealing with other men. Is that too much to ask? Life changed forever when she screwed the other man. We will never be the same couple again. It will be different now and it has to be. She did this to us. She has a difficult time coming to terms that our relationship is forever changed and for a long time she does not deserve any trust or benefit of the doubt.

Maybe we can fix ourselves and be better than before, but we have a long, long way to go.

[This message edited by notperfect5 at 1:57 PM, March 23rd (Wednesday)]

Wow. She snowed you. You are so insecure of losing her that you willingly believe any bullshit she spews.

She is still wanting ego kibbles from any man. I dont care if she rivals the Victoria Secret models that shot is broken and she should he doing work to get over it. You can always be kind and also show that you dont want to talk. Hell i did it twice on a plane this week.

Why are you so willing to tolerate her bs. Why are you allowing her abuse and poor behavior be excuaed by lame shit like she was tired and hungry. Shes not a toddler and im pretty sure a successful dentist isnt a socially retarded adult that cant behave because she is hangry.

I hope you can step back and hear how ridiculous you sound.

Please re-read what tushnurse posted above. She's got your wife figured out and is trying to help you see what's going on.

I read these last few posts carefully. I believe what you said in your first post that she was totally absorbed with chatting with him and the sexual tension of a sitting next to a friendly, strange man. The fact that she was angry at you when you called her on her shit seems absolutely irrational to me. The two of you are struggling with reconciling after she spent time fucking another man. Supposedly she understands that her boundaries are for shit yet she pushes her body - literally - right up to the fence on the plane. I was expecting you to end that post with something like "I immediately flew back home, packed my shit & moved out, and then called my lawyer and told him to file". So reading your next post was incredulous to me. How can you believe all this bullshit? Why are you so anxious to rationalize all of this a few hours later? Is it because you calm your emotional self down and are able to put your "I'm ok. We're ok" face back on?

If you are going to be a "reconciliation at any cost" BH then prepare for a lot of tremendous costs. If you want real reconciliation than re-read dozens of the posts on this thread that explain boundaries and 180 and bullshit detection and everything else you are ignoring.

NP5,

Hope that you are enjoying yourself some. Sucks so bad that the fall out from infidelity and TT has to affect everything!

I agree that Edith is not being aware enough of how her actions affect you. I would not, however, automatically assume the worst. My H was remorseful and really tried to help me and the M heal, but he had long standing habits of behavior (defensiveness was a big one for him) that took some time to change. He would sometimes get annoyed that I would trigger when he "wasn't doing anything wrong". Now he realizes that my whole life is viewed through a different filter, and that is his fault. He is rarely defensive now.

We are currently traveling too and just passed though San Diego. He mentioned that he had gone to a convention there years ago. I replied coldly that I knew that, that that was the meeting that the OW also attended. (That was the one time in their years long A and they did not stay together but did screw while there). He immediately apologized, repeatedly, touched me, told me how much he loved me, etc. In other words he didn't let his shame get in the way of supporting me. And honestly, I wasn't that triggered--it was 8 years ago and he has been such a better H and man.

So perhaps Edith really needs more work, but isn't a lost cause. Just my 2 cents.

Good luck to you! I find tagging along at conferences can be lots of fun, but sometimes feel a bit left out.

Either you she is very, very clever, or the opposite. The naivety you speak of I can understand in a younger less experienced woman (that was me, I never knew when I was being hit on, I always thought they were interested in me, in my mind ). But such naivety is not allowable in your circumstances. What HAS she been doing about learning about herself and others since D-day. Really, her naivety is beginning to sound very disingenuous. The great learning opportunity that an affair offers to both BS and WS has been passed up by her, it seems. A dereliction of some magnitude. Think about it a little more. Stop being her apologist or indeed be a pushover when tears flow. Only actions matter now. Words very little.

Hmmm. Really? You were close enough you saw her chatting her ass off with this man. Surely, if she was speaking to someone across the aisle,his wife, you would have noticed?

Why didn't she switch seats with his wife?

She didn't really want to talk, she wanted to read, but just couldn't cut the conversation off?

So she is willing to cross boundaries, rather than be polite and ask a stranger to allow her to read her book?

Or..switch seats with his wife.

Confused, all very good points! Very good. I don't think she thought talking to him would be and issue. I had, prior to the affair, had no problem with it because I though I was enough for her. I see now that she did not think so and was resentful and entitled and damnit, she was going to do this and have this friend and NP5, you can watch me do this or screw you--I'm done with you. I'll have this friend. How dare you suggest I can't have one! How dare you control me. How dare you, after all these years of giving and supporting and being faithful, suggest I can't control myself! Just who do you think you are!?! How dare you dictate what I can do!

Except she was giving me that speech as she was screwing him month after month.

He says he needs 5 more years of being able to be healing which seems to mean that he has license to dictate everything about how everything will work in our relationship. We were broken years before the affair. My husband says we are not married anymore because of the affair but are only married in the eyes of the tax man and the law. But while that is his view, it is 100% up to me to carry on as his loving, respectful, dutiful wife who gives all. I have been loving this way to him for over a year, which is when I recommitted my vows to him.

How do I show remorse if I feel controlled? There is a difference between being willing to "lose the marriage before one can save it" and getting back into controlling patterns that were definitely pervasive before the affair.

What the hell do I know? She can do anything now. There is nothing I can tell myself she would not do. Nothing. She is capable, based on her past behavior of doing absolutely the worst.

So if I ask her to not do this (engage in long talks with other men) again, am I dictating everything that we are doing in our relationship? Am I slipping into the pervasive controlling patterns? Or should I just sit there for 4 hours and watch her bask in the attention of other men?

So if I ask her to not do this (So if I ask her to not do this (engage in long talks with other men)....Am I slipping into the pervasive controlling patterns?

It sounds like the boot is on the other foot, she controls by anger, tears, silent treatment, deflection or whatever, and here again the issue is deflected back onto you, and has you self-questioning. Have you two not begun to create protocols for behaviour in your marriage? That might suggest, given the history, that it is pretty unthoughtful of either of you to be behaving thoughtlessly with members of the opposite sex and certainly way past any acceptable boundary to be seeking any kind of ego stroke.

There is a point, though, Notperfect, that I feel you have reached whereby you need to be encouraged to follow your own counsel, certainly in this case, it really is empowering. Posing the above questions is still codependency,, casting SI members as yet another authority. It's slightly different from just seeking others' perspectives and is part of the dynamic in which you find yourself.

So I would say in response to your questions:

I dunno. What do you think?

There is a point, though, Notperfect, that I feel you have reached whereby you need to be encouraged to follow your own counsel, certainly in this case, it really is empowering. Posing the above questions is still codependency,, casting SI members as yet another authority. It's slightly different from just seeking others' perspectives and is part of the dynamic in which you find yourself.

So I would say in response to your questions:

I dunno. What do you think?

Edie, Why do you have a guy name?...

Anyway- excellent point. I guess I am very damaged. Perhaps the blameshifting and gaslighting has been so pervasive and for so long that I am questioning my perception, my logic, my decision making capability. Why is it I come her month after month? I need recalibrating, severely. It is taking me a long time to do so. I am a slow learner, I must admit.

Edith is in this conference / training thing the last few days. There are about 50 people and 4 are guys. Yesterday she sat down early at a table near the front so she could see and hear the lectures well.

Then, one by one, 3 of the 4 guys sat down with her. Reflecting on what we had talked about the last few days, she found a reason to get her stuff together and get up and leave. She came back a few minutes later and sat with the ladies.

Thank you!

I told her I appreciated that. That is how you do it and that is how we move forward and get better.

Anyway, we are finishing up this week and then it's Easter. Take care you all and happy Easter.

So you watched her get up from the guys and move to a ladies table? Did she know you were there? Do you think it's possible that she will do what she thinks you want her to do as long as it's fresh in her mind? Like maybe the whole plane incident might have reminded her to not flirt when you are watching?

I understand being afraid to leave your wife and start over. I've been there. But as weak and pathetic as I was there came a time when I drew a hard line regarding her boundaries and what was acceptable behavior around other men. I will never know how much she stayed to our agreement when I wasn't with her, but at least she respected me enough to not throw it in my face. She never tossed back anything like "you don't have the right to tell me what to do" or anything like that because she knew she gave up that right when she fucked those guys. How much narcissistic, disrespectful behavior are you willing to tolerate before you file for divorce? If you have such a line in the sand, is she aware of it? She deserves to know how far she can go before it's too far because it seems she's going to keep pushing her boundaries until you bust her again.

So if I ask her to not do this (engage in long talks with other men) again, am I dictating everything that we are doing in our relationship? Am I slipping into the pervasive controlling patterns? Or should I just sit there for 4 hours and watch her bask in the attention of other men?

For me, it's very black and white. She makes a decision (basking in the attention of other men), then you make a decision... is your decision really going to be to tell a fully grown woman (and confirmed liar and cheater) that this is inappropriate?

That wouldn't be my decision.

I found (and find when reading this forum) that there is TOO MUCH talking and talking. We always say "don't listen to what they SAY, watch what they DO". Are you watching?

I say, this is her. Accept it and stay (hoping the IC helps her change), or call it a day and leave. You can't spend your life telling her how she SHOULD be.

Whatever your decision, keep your chin up.

ETA: I also think she's supplementing her ego kibble diet with your distress over these little indiscretions. I have been spectacularly wrong at least once before, however.

[This message edited by ChangeMaker at 2:39 PM, March 24th (Thursday)]

That sounds like good progress on both Edith's behaviour and your own confidence, Not Perfect. And bodes well for a good Easter break, which I wish to both of you.

Regarding my name, it's very much a girl's name - Edie Sedgwick being one of the most notable your side of the pond, but there's many more of us,.. all more or less female. The initial 'E' is pronounced 'ee' like in 'me'.

The male name is Eddie, at least across here it is, short for Edward. The initial 'E' is pronounced 'e' as in 'bed'.

Best wishes from EEdie.

Changemaker nailed it on the edit. She likes you being insecure and desperate. And I'm afraid that's what you'll always be if you stay with her. It's been years now. How much more do you really think she'll change? I'm sorry you don't see that she's always been this way. Even before you met her. And asking your kids if they're happy? Ummmm.. Do you ask them if they want to go to school or eat their vegetables? Please get them into therapy. How about letting her make her own decisions and doing random polygraphs? Then you'll know if she's a safe partner. Funny how she could be exhausted and chatty with a stranger for 5 hours but she sure as hell could get mean and defensive with you. Priorities, I guess.

ETA: I also think she's supplementing her ego kibble diet with your distress over these little indiscretions. I have been spectacularly wrong at least once before, however.

Sadly the other layer of a NPD personality, and the hard part is when one has traits of NPD but can hide it well with personal service to others, they like the world to look at them like they are great, but want their spouse or significant other to be off balance. Remember when many of us told you that ANY attention is good attention? Things are starting to feel "better" for you, YOU are starting to feel a little more centered, not great mind you but feeling like things are getting to a place where you feel safe....and WHAM! they do something else to implode your nice soft world. She knows what she is doing, this is of course not out right cheating but she knows what she is doing, and she knew it would upset you. Don't believe yourself that she did not know. THEY KNOW. You being upset is attention to her.

She has so much more work to do. So much more. And she may never change. YOU have to decide if you like living this emotional roller coaster you are on. She pulls the trigger, you react, she gets the attention she craves, she also gets you to act "mad" at whatever she is doing so she can then turn it around and make it seem like you are unreasonable. What is wrong NP5? That it was oh so innocent!

If you had not reacted, said nothing. Let it be and keep moving forward....she would have ramped up, something else would have happened. She wants you to be upset and notice she gets attention from others.

My opinion only, she has such hidden underneath resentment and anger at you that is still underneath all of that controlled professional appearance of how she wants the world to see her, you are just the punching bag of how she passively/aggressively gets it out. Rinse wash repeat.

[This message edited by realitybites at 10:53 AM, March 25th (Friday)]

NP5, if you were that controlling, she would never have had the opportunity to engage in an affair, much less continue an affair.