SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What happened after your guys' therapist said it was a bad idea?

In therapy, we kept talking about it for a while. I said that I wasn't worried about it, but the therapist (correctly, in hindsight) pretty much ignored me and focused on my girlfriend. They went back and forth about it. My girlfriend argued that she was obviously willing to make sacrifices to help me, but that this was important for her work and would be difficult to get out of. Just as I wouldn't expect her to quit her job to be with me all the time, I didn't expect her to cancel this trip.

The therapist kept pressing, and eventually ended it by asking my girlfriend to keep thinking about it and to carefully consider it. We went home and talked about it further, and I again told her that it would be fine. I told her that I wasn't willing to commit to the relationship, but I would commit to not letting this trip be the thing that breaks us apart. Even if it turned out to be difficult, I wouldn't break up with her during the trip.

By that point, the conversation was not at all involving the possibility of her returning to the other guy again. Even our therapist didn't express worry about that. I did have access to my girlfriend's texts with the other guy from before she cut off contact. After she found out about the herpes, she was very cold to him. It all seemed consistent with the idea that she had snapped out of the fantasy and lost all illusions about what she had done. So that helps too.

You don't think she knew about the herpes until after she confessed. You also thought she would not cheat.

Since you have ruled out a poly....you will never know. You will think, feel, hope, guess.....but you will never really know. That's the reality.

Any relationship with her, from his point on will be filled with unknowns. Except for these 2 facts:

1. She is a cheater/liar.

2. She got an incurable STD from cheating.

Interesting that these 2 facts are only only ones she could not hide.

In therapy, we kept talking about it for a while. I said that I wasn't worried about it, but the therapist (correctly, in hindsight) pretty much ignored me and focused on my girlfriend. They went back and forth about it. My girlfriend argued that she was obviously willing to make sacrifices to help me, but that this was important for her work and would be difficult to get out of.

I've got to tell you, I don't like the sound of that. She argued back and forth with the therapist about this?

How about this? Don't mention it to her again. If she comes back and sheepishly admits that she contacted him, "because I just couldn't believe he would lie to me. I wanted to give him a piece of my mind." If that happens, are you going to get rid of her then? Or are you going to say, we just don't know her? Just curious. Are you prepared to end it if she slips up and communicates with him behind your back?

Be wary of "authorities." If you really want them, read around here. Thousands of people who live this day in and day out.

I suspect the "authorities" would turn this back around on you. This forum is full of betrayed spouses, most of them still freshly in pain. Surely that skews the advice I get here, and surely not always for the better? I do trust a dispassionate expert more than a fellow victim.

Why would you want that? The relationship you thought you had was vastly different than the one you actually did have. Why in the world would you want to go back to that? Don't you think you deserve a better relationship than that?

I deserve a better relationship than what I *actually* had. To wit, I deserve the kind of relationship I *thought* I had. A good relationship requires a lot, and I still do have a lot of that with my girlfriend. Obviously, there was also a terrible problem in the relationship as well. But now that the damage is done, now that the problem is no longer hidden, maybe we can fix it. And then, maybe I can keep the good parts of the relationship.

(Again, I don't know if I believe that's going to happen. But I don't want to break up with her as long as it seems like that *might* be the best path for me. I'm not at all convinced that it's right, but I'm also not convinced that it's wrong. The back-and-forth helps me process it.)

Not sure how one uses an affair to protect against another one occurring.

I guess the idea here is that we learn about ourselves and we learn about infidelity. We gain experience, we go to counseling, and we change ourselves to make sure it can never happen in the future. Before this point, we never gave it a second thought, and that made us more vulnerable. Our naivete allowed her to made a terrible decision (which, yes, she bears responsibility for) and allowed me to be oblivious about it. Armed with our new understanding, we can prevent it from happening again. So why leave her now, when the damage is already done but the underlying problem is fixable?

(Again, again, I don't know if I believe this. But feel free to argue back. I want to hear it.)

But I'm not sure what you're saying...too damn hard to find someone else so might as well stick with the girl who cheated on me?

Sometimes, I feel like I'm about to hit my prime in life, that I have a bright future, and that I'm far too young to settle for this shit. Other times, I feel like an unattractive nerd who has always sucked at dating (true) and will have a lot of difficulty finding new love. I go back and forth.

Most of the people responding to you are not new here. You've gotten a lot of great advice from us veterans. True, we are all betrayed spouses, but that actually makes our opinion more valuable,than that of a third party, who has never had to deal with infidelity. At least, imo.

If you think the advice you're getting is basically useless, because we're not all therapists...then an awful lot of people have been wasting their time responding to you, on this very long thread.

[This message edited by confused615 at 4:34 PM, May 23rd (Monday)]

I've got to tell you, I don't like the sound of that. She argued back and forth with the therapist about this?

Yeah. I don't much like it either. I hate that I took her side of it.

How about this? Don't mention it to her again. If she comes back and sheepishly admits that she contacted him, "because I just couldn't believe he would lie to me. I wanted to give him a piece of my mind." If that happens, are you going to get rid of her then? Or are you going to say, we just don't know her? Just curious. Are you prepared to end it if she slips up and communicates with him behind your back?

Sure, I'd dump her if she broke NC. I have all sorts of fantasies about catching her slipping up in some big way. I crave the clarity that would bring.

In this hypothetical, why would she admit to doing it, though? And if she doesn't say anything, would you still believe that she probably did?

Most of the people responding to you are not new here. You've gotten a lot of great advice from us veterans. True, we are all betrayed spouses, but that actually makes our opinion more valuable,than that of a third party, who has never had to deal with infidelity. At least, imo.

If you think the advice you're getting is basically useless, because we're not all therapists...then an awful lot of people have been wasting their time responding to you, on this very long thread.

I'm very sorry. I don't think that, and I didn't mean to imply it.

I really do value the perspective I get here. I just think it's one kind of perspective. I have another, based on my personal observations and experiences, which is surely flawed in its own unique ways. The therapist who has been seeing us for over a year has another. A researcher who has analyzed hundreds or thousands of couples (including the ones who might never go on an internet forum) has yet another still. I want to see all of them.

I suspect the "authorities" would turn this back around on you. This forum is full of betrayed spouses, most of them still freshly in pain. Surely that skews the advice I get here, and surely not always for the better? I do trust a dispassionate expert more than a fellow victim.

I thought so too. My IC's and MC's had lots of advise for me. Much of it agreed with what was written, some not.

But the experts DID NOT HELP ME END THE AFFAIR BETWEEN MY WIFE AND THE OM. Only here did I get the advise, help, admonishment, 2x4's etc. that I needed. Time and time again I denied and thought my wife was different. I thought I knew better.

It has been my experience over the last 18 month's that my wife lied about the affair almost 100% of the time and that the SI consensus was almost 100% spot on accurate. The consensus knows adultery inside and out like no "specialist" or "authority" knows. The wayward fog, the lies that they tell, the blameshifting and gaslighting... This group saw right through it all somehow. Were they always right? No. But almost always.

ETA: The IC's and the MC's were always trying to avoid doing damage, avoid me making mistakes. What they avoided doing was encouraging my wife keep a dick out of her. As a result I have a boatload of resentment for my wife as she tormented me for nearly 10 months.

SI is all about getting you out of torment. I refused their advise for the longest time and nearly went postal as a result. You can take the long messy way around and endure the pain. I did. I guess I still am, but damn, I have 5 children and 23 years under my belt. I'm not saying not marry her after a time. That's up to you. But at least listen to these guys and disagree with the consensus at your own risk.

[This message edited by notperfect5 at 4:44 PM, May 23rd (Monday)]

This forum is full of betrayed spouses, most of them still freshly in pain. Surely that skews the advice I get here, and surely not always for the better? I do trust a dispassionate expert more than a fellow victim

^^^Unfortunately, IMO you are wrong. Many, many therapists haven't got a clue when it comes to infidelity. Not a clue.

My D-Day was eleven years ago. Eleven years ago I might have given you different advice based on my emotional state. I have been on this board for approximately 7 years. I know from my own experience as well as those people who have stuck around that we know what we speak.

You've gotten great advice from many of the veteran members who have lived through infidelity and gotten to the other side. They are the experts, they have lived it, breathed it, studied it, and have helped hundreds of members here, like yourself, who came for support.

BTW, IMO, your girlfriend has absolutely no business going away on business. Your relationship is in crisis, she cheated on a business trip, and nothing is settled at this point. If she was truly remorseful, IMO she would figure out a way to focus on the relationship instead of her job.

My WH traveled every other week before D-Day. After D-Day he managed to cancel EVERY business trip unless I was able to attend with him. There's always a way out.

I wish you luck, my heart breaks for you as I have three young adult sons and would not want to see them having to live through this hell before marriage. I'd advise them to run and never look back.

It s*cks, no other words to describe it.

sure, it's possible she wouldn't tell. Particularly if she knew that it would definitely be a deal breaker for you. But she told you before. And if it was before she knew she had herpies, then I applaud her for it. It takes guts to confess.

but you haven't broken up with her. She likes to be forth coming. she may not know that it would be the true death knell. You've caved in to her entreaties before.

My concern is this. The business trip is a long time. The desire to confront the person who hurt you is great. There's someone posting on this thread who told his wife after discovery that under no circumstances should she contact her AP again. If she did, that would be it. I told him she would be greatly tempted. I was right. Her AP had told her he was divorced. And then she found out through her husband that he was actually married. Even under the final threat of divorce, she had to contact her AP to find out from him. She later confessed.

So.... your girlfriend had a lover. She had a lover that she really loved. She now finds out that he had herpies, which he denies. And she's going back to the same city, away from you. And she's going to be there for an extended time. I'm betting that eventually she will justify to herself that she needs to know the truth once and for all. And then.... he's going to sweet talk her. She may not falter. But the point is, if she contacts him again, behind your back, you're really going to understand what we've been trying to tell you. of course, maybe she won't.

If she does contact him, and doesn't tell you, I think with your heightened awareness you will sense that something happened. Something will seem off. I think eventually you will find out.

For what it's worth, I understand your quasi desire to have her falter. You just want the indecision to be over. If you finally knew that you couldn't trust her, you'd move on. I understand that. You're in a difficult spot.

good luck either way.

It's funny. When I read other posts here, I'm not very forgiving. I hear people say "but I love them so much" and I think "get over it". I hear people say "they're doing everything right except for this one little thing" and I think "run for the hills". But in my own relationship with my own partner, I think I just might be the exception. I want to keep arguing until I'm 100% sure. As if that's possible.

I suspect the "authorities" would turn this back around on you. This forum is full of betrayed spouses, most of them still freshly in pain. Surely that skews the advice I get here, and surely not always for the better? I do trust a dispassionate expert more than a fellow victim.

If you truly feel this way stop posting.

I have been following this thread on and off. I am beginning to see you are not ready to take any advice from the people here that have been through betrayal first hand.

If you think the advice you're getting is basically useless, because we're not all therapists...then an awful lot of people have been wasting their time responding to you, on this very long thread.

I wish you luck, my heart breaks for you as I have three young adult sons and would not want to see them having to live through this hell before marriage. I'd advise them to run and never look back.

It s*cks, no other words to describe it.

For what it's worth, I understand your quasi desire to have her falter. You just want the indecision to be over. If you finally knew that you couldn't trust her, you'd move on. I understand that. You're in a difficult spot.

good luck either way.

Thank you. I really appreciate the compassion, most especially when I'm stuck like this.

I want to keep arguing until I'm 100% sure. As if that's possible.

I absolutely get this. I was like that too.

I'm still trying to be 100% sure.

It took me months and months of "making sure" and then I would change my mind again.

It was torture. For some they can make up their mind quickly and for others it takes quite some time. Nothing wrong with that! I'm like that too.

But I want to tell you that it comes at a cost. Forgiveness comes at a great cost to the self. You can forgive her once, twice, or even seven times like me. Each time there are layers of pain that you will have to work through and deal with.

My wife went on a trip or two to a city where the OM lived. It hurt like hell to have her there. Get some really strong sleeping pills.

Last thing: Polygraphs work. They do. WW refused to take one citing all sorts of reasons. The reason she didn't give me was that she had committed adultery and didn't want to admit it. I only got lies until the polygraph, then it started to trickle and then to gush out truth. I highly recommend getting the truth, or as much as is necessary to get the full picture as you require.

Except, I *literally encouraged her to go*

For others, there may be codependency.

Toopol, I think you should seriously consider that you may be codependent and you want to patch things up with her because you are SCARED YOU WILL lose her, and with extreme anxiety YOU DON'T WANT to lose her, and you feel responsible for making this work, so you will do anything to try to make it work.

I don't have as many posts as others whose join date is as far back as mine, but I have been on this forum reading nearly every day continuously.

I went through YEARS of false-R because I was SCARED I WOULD lose him, and with extreme anxiety I DIDN'T WANT to lose him. So I did all kinds of crazy co-dependent things to try to GET him to reconcile, and bent over backwards to accommodate his excuses for why he still needed to travel for "work", and I tried to talk to him when he was gone to ease my mind, and you know what? It totally didn't matter and it didn't work. He f*cked her on that trip, and then called me afterwards as if he hadn't. And he played the remorseful guy for a while, and I bought it. Because I wanted to believe. Until it became clear with some very clear proof that it was all a lie.

Having her call you will do NOTHING to prevent her cheating OR give you any peace of mind. It won't work.

I urge you to let her go on this trip, and to go 100% NO CONTACT with her while she is gone. Give yourself some time to yourself. Back away from the drama and the daily interaction with her that keeps you hooked on this relationship and the fantasies you have of making it work out. If this sounds impossible for you ask yourself seriously, what are you afraid of? Write it down, list it out.

Do not let your fears of your future life without her control you. Do not let your attachment to your fantasy future of her control you.

This is an opportunity for you to TEST YOURSELF. To learn what it would be like to not talk to her daily. To not have her in your home. To not be controlling her. To only be controlling yourself. To move on.

toopol,

Collective wisdom from 53000 direct primary sources have built up the general consensus on SI.

The passion here is to help those inflicted with betrayal get out of betrayal, survive, and thrive in the future despite the long term negative impact of being betrayed.

Not sure a serious expert could "turn it around" in the face of 53000 case studies that have led to the generally consistent advice offered on this site.

The only way you can be 100% sure of what to do is... not really possible.

It is true that every circumstance is unique. However, the commonality of a cheater's behavior is not. Your cheating girl friend is not different than any of the other cheaters.

If she refused the upcoming trip (or offered to bring you along). If she found her own books. If she sought her own IC to address her root why. If she was consistently honest with any detail you asked. If she gave you complete access to everything she has so you could verify everything. If she bent over backward to make this right by asking you what you need AND going nuts researching on her own for ways to make this up to you. If she broke down every day begging you to give her another chance. If she constantly acknowledged her choice was her choice and never once blamed the relationship, you, work, stress, boredom, her family, her naivete, the other person, the weather, or anything else. If she went out of her way to address the long term STD she picked up while cheating to keep you from getting it. If she was honest about everything that crosses her mind about anything. If she was so remorseful she would crawl through a pit of broken glass and then roll in salt to prove how remorseful she is...

Then maybe she'd be unique among cheaters. But, she isn't.

And you making excuses for her, defending her, trying to keep her on the pedestal you put her on, trying to rug sweep in your mind with fantasy hope that the impact is not as severe as it really is, taking some of the blame for her choice, and blaming it on being naive isn't unique either.

That is why SI is here- to help you see the reality of what happened and what is likely to happen in the future. Likely based on 53000 primary sources that is concentrated down into the one resounding piece of advice that echoes on every page of this thread.

Toopol, there aren't any unicorns.

GREAT post by quedagh just above. Re read it. Then read it again.

This forum is full of betrayed spouses, most of them still freshly in pain. Surely that skews the advice I get here, and surely not always for the better?

oh, I couldn't disagree more. Some D successfully. Some R successfully. Fresh pain? Look at the dates. Would a 2007 member's pain be fresh? Would he have a perspective (and age/maturity) beyond yours? The collective wisdom here is greater than your own, ...or mine, toopol. Notice they (we?) are all saying essentially the same, despite our differences (betrayed gf's, betrayed boyfriends, betrayed husbands, betrayed wives, betrayed lesbians, from Australia, Europe, the states north south east and west... humble, proud, wealthy, poor, educated, simple, destitute and with means..all telling you the same thing.

I do trust a dispassionate expert more than a fellow victim.

oh, and in that dispassion, do you truly find empathic truth and understanding? I could study infidelity all my life, and never fully understand its brutality. No?

oh, I couldn't disagree more. Some D successfully. Some R successfully. Fresh pain? Look at the dates. Would a 2007 member's pain be fresh? Would he have a perspective (and age/maturity) beyond yours? The collective wisdom here is greater than your own, ...or mine, toopol. Notice they (we?) are all saying essentially the same, despite our differences (betrayed gf's, betrayed boyfriends, betrayed husbands, betrayed wives, betrayed lesbians, from Australia, Europe, the states north south east and west... humble, proud, wealthy, poor, educated, simple, destitute and with means..all telling you the same thing.

You have a good point.

I want to listen. I *will* listen.

I won't accept anything uncritically, though. I have to think for myself, and even among the posters on this thread there is room for some disagreement. But even then, I hope nobody feels like I'm dismissing the advice I get here. I don't.

If she refused the upcoming trip (or offered to bring you along).

For whatever it's worth, she did offer to bring me along. Actually, she offered to bring me along on the first trip, too. But the first time around, I was too busy to come with her. This time, I'm both too busy and uncomfortable with the idea. I don't want to go *there*. But hey, since I have a standing invitation, maybe I should just knock on her hotel door one evening!

And you making excuses for her, defending her, trying to keep her on the pedestal you put her on, trying to rug sweep in your mind with fantasy hope that the impact is not as severe as it really is, taking some of the blame for her choice, and blaming it on being naive isn't unique either.

Yeah. I have a weird awareness of this, which contributes to the "kinda pathetic" feeling I mentioned at the top of my earlier update.

I think there may be some good old cognitive dissonance at play. Some of the reading I've done has said that affairs can happen even in good relationships, and that good people can end up in an affair if they don't understand proper boundaries and all that. So I get this idea that my girlfriend is essentially still the same woman I fell in love with, and she just made a horrible horrible mistake, and my understanding of how infidelity happened was flawed. The competing idea is that she's NOT the woman I fell in love with, that she revealed a terrible flaw in her character, that she's selfish, and that she doesn't love me like I love her. But that is so, SO contrary to my pre-affair beliefs, so it's harder to accept. It's just so much more distant from my original view of her. If that's the case, then it would just shatter my confidence in everything. How could I be so wrong?

Usually, when faced with this kind of dichotomy, I find that it's a false dichotomy. The answer is almost always some mixture. But I don't understand how to make sense of that, here. I don't understand how to make a choice with that.

toopol.

Sorry you are dealing with this.

I too went through this with my LTgf....we too were planning our wedding, looking at rings, etc.

I kicked her out 15 min after confronting....and have never regretted it since.

Wasn't even tempted when she came back 8 months later begging for another chance.

No way in hell was I going to commit myself to someone who had proved she already had the capability to be a traitorous cheat.

You seen to be suffering from what is called analysis paralysis....you are thinking about this so much, and from so many 'what if' possibilities that you find yourself incapable of making a choice/decision.

That is not going to be solved by thinking on the problem more.

The biggest danger I see in you possibly choosing to R is the STD.

If you try R, you are taking a severe risk IMO.

Chances are good you could eventually get herpes yourself.

What if that happens, and then she cheats again or you simply discover you can't get over her betrayal?

At that point YOUR options for moving on will be severely limited because you decided to try R with her.

Few women will be willing to get in a relationship with you if you have the STD yourself.

You will discover that you have sacrificed a large part of your future options on a crap shoot possibility for R with your wayward gf.

In other words, choosing to try R in your situation becomes almost an all or nothing.

Too risky IMO to put all your potential future eggs into a 'possible' R with a proven cheater.

Thought I'd check back on this thread and yep, you are where I thought you'd be.

I really hope for your sake that you're a troll wasting everyone's time.

However I see enough of my 22 year old self in you that fear that you are not.

I'm sad for your parents, who see this happening to their son.

I doubt you will ever leave this woman voluntarily for some time. I think the most likely scenario is that you will cling to the fantasy of how you want things to be, out of fear. Yes. Fear. Rationalize all you want about you, her, and the relationship. It all boils down to you being afraid of not being able to do any better. Same goes for her now. What a solid foundation for a lasting happy relationship.

Please get individual therapy. You will need to have coping skills for what you have chosen for your life.

Edited to add:

My sincere apologies Toopol. This post was harsh, meant to sting enough to get your attention but harsher than I intended in retrospect. The point is I'm emotionally invested in this outcome, because you're so very much like I was! You see, I made a similar relationship work, only to be sorry in the long run that I did so. I realize that this is all my own issue and I shouldn't try to beat up on you to see my point.

I will reiterate the point of individual counseling. Seeing an IC has no connection with your girlfriend would likely be beneficial to you. I saw a few counselors over the course of my 25 year relationship and they quite frankly saved me, and by proxy, my children, from the eventual destructive dynamic and dysfunction of my ex. The coping skills I learned were invaluable.

I truly wish you well.

[This message edited by antlered at 10:07 AM, May 25th (Wednesday)]