SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

1) she only told you because she got herpes

2) you seem to forget that the traumatic event you survived together and used to build a stronger relationship was her screwing you over. It wasn't a miscarriage or a car accident or a death. It was simply her shitting on you

3) you're one month in? It never goes away. This is here to stay. Sure it gets better but you'll never not have this in your relationship. This is why we all told you to cut and run.

Topool,

Don't worry about any decision you made about this upcoming business trip UNLESS IT IS TO THE SAME PLACE .

Unless she is disturbed beyond any help, she has to know she is on big time thin ice, so my guess is she will go out of her way to try to show you she is not repeating the behavior. However, your problem is how do you believe that.

Of course, the opposite of that is that she believes you may leave so why not have some more fun. Just my guess that is less likely because I am also guessing that you are venting your thoughts here and that she thinks you are staying or that that is more likely.

I really think that what has made so much of the commentary feel like I do, and that you are crazy to marry this woman, is that even in this fucked up world of infidelity, here actions crossed some real evil lines.

It's kind of like how very few WW as a percentage fuck the OM in their home or marital bed, and when that happens it adds to the trauma . Or when a WS sits in therapy and lies to the therapist and goes right back to AP.

Your fiancé, repeatedly sat on the phone with you, told you she loved you, and then right back to her sex buddy minutes later. That is worse than if she just did not stay in contact enough. Just my opinion.

You can explain or sugar coat this any way you want to. I just cannot see how you will feel good about yourself marching down the aisle and saying your vows to someone who has violated your self worth like this.

And lastly, what you better figure out if you stay in this relationship, since you adamantly I believe have refused the idea of a polygraph, is how do you trust her on business trips that are going to occur once the inevitable rough patches and "boredom" of a marriage set in.

You are a smart, well spoken, and thoughtful guy. You can do better than this for sure

I agree with Alaska77, and others. She only told you because she got Herpes.

Her remorse is centered around that, only that. I honestly believe you know what to fo, but it is difficult. You want to believe in her, but the truth is the truth.

For two weeks she had unprotected sex with a bellboy, while you are alone being true. You video chat, and she lies to your face. A very accomplished liar, don't you think?

She comes home and tells you after she learns he gave her Herpes.

Crying, remorse, promises, talking the talk. She is now damaged goods. She has an incurable STD.

What else would you expect now? You are now Plan B. She is pulling out all stops to "prove" her worth, and keep you.

How do you know for sure this wasn't the first time? You do not. As she had proven she can easily lie to your face. Why? Because you trusted her.

You are not married, I can appreciate your work trying to resolve in your mind what is best for you. But how can get past the blatant lies, and total disrespect? Her remorse is what is colloquially known as "cheaters remorse"

Again, I believe you know what to do, and I am certain you will. Use this time apart to get your thoughts in order.

All relationships have ups and downs. All How you handle that is what strengthens, weakens, or destroys. You both are guilty of that. But you did not make her cheat, that was her cold calculated choice to spend two weeks enjoying her bellboy. Not your fault. Period.

I hope you have been abstaining for your protection. Sad she didn't protect you, your relationship either. She selfishly took you for granted, and potentially exposed you to a life altering disease. She did not protect you.

Again, you know what to do. You have written it here several times.

Protect yourself, and your future. She didn't.

Best wishes

[This message edited by Killian at 8:17 AM, May 23rd (Monday)]

I agree with Killian completely

What does your gf think about going away for work at this bad time .Did she talk you into letting her go .

It was a hard process, but through it, we became closer than ever. And when we finally did get married, we did so confident that nothing could tear us apart, because we were willing to work to build something strong and beautiful.

I call bullshit.

What you wrote above is a fantasy. Nothing more. Look, I am reconciling with my wife. A good number of factors contributed to my decision to do so. We were together for 25+ years, we have 5 kids, her actions showed she was remorseful, blah blah blah. Nowhere in that calculus was this flighty thought of working to build something strong and beautiful.

See, I thought I had that already. I was wrong. What about you? Didn't you have a relationship that was strong and beautiful? Well, you thought you did. You were wrong. Now, maybe in a few years time, assuming we make it, my wife and I will look back together and we'll view her affair and the aftermath as a sad chapter but not the whole picture, and perhaps our marriage will be strong and beautiful again - but no matter what, it won't be as it was and it won't be better. That's just not the way it works. Please don't kid yourself.

As you pointed out, you have no ties to her other than a few years together. That is one of the key reasons folks are telling you to leave her. Breakups happen all the time. Hell, you're not even engaged. This was the time when your relationship was supposed to be the strongest. But it wasn't. This was the time when your love for each other was supposed to help you face anything. You and her against the world. But it wasn't. At least not for her. So when do you think that will happen? If it wasn't enough now, then when?

Walloped:

What you wrote above is a fantasy. Nothing more. Look, I am reconciling with my wife. A good number of factors contributed to my decision to do so. We were together for 25+ years, we have 5 kids, her actions showed she was remorseful, blah blah blah. Nowhere in that calculus was this flighty thought of working to build something strong and beautiful.

This is why I dig Walloped. Well put, ditto, and "+100"

Check around. Check the betrayed menz thread. Look at what the most common comment is. I'll help you out, "I wish I would have left." These are men with decades of time pre-affair and years post-affair. Most of what I read said they never regained any respect for their wives. The ones that are happy that they reconciled are much fewer in number.

I fear that outcome. It's so easy to think "we're different, we're the exception". But I thought that before, when I believed she would never ever cheat on me, and that was proven wrong! So, part of me thinks I should short-circuit all my careful analysis and just run for the hills. But of course, I also think that's silly, and that I should take my time and feel confident before I make a decision.

Do you really believe this? Are you really able to write off having sex with some hotel clerk for two weeks during the "honeymoon" period of your relationship (about to purpose).

No, I can't just write it off. Especially when I think of all the things she said and thought during that time. To know that I was going to propose, to decide that she needed to confess, and to still continue the affair... that shit was a *choice*. I do think she was naive and vulnerable, and I do think that she would behave differently in the future, but I really can't ignore how badly she hurt me. Five weeks after DDay and it's still inconceivable to me that she could make such a choice.

(On a side note: I keep hearing that this was supposed to be the "honeymoon" phase of our relationship. I don't think that's true. We had a honeymoon phase for a good year at the start of our relationship, which I think is a normal span. After that, it settled and matured, and we've been living together since then, mostly happily but with occasional ups and downs. It was not a golden age of our relationship, and the few months before the affair were particularly stressful due to my own work situation. So although it never should have happened under any circumstances, let's not say that it happened in the best of times.)

1) she only told you because she got herpes

I wish people would stop saying this. Again, I've thought about it a lot, but based on the things she said and the timing of her symptoms and diagnosis, I don't think she knew about the herpes until after she confessed. The way she talked and behaved prior to her diagnosis doesn't make sense to me otherwise. That doesn't let her off the hook by any means! But on this one thing, I genuinely believe she chose to confess without knowing about the herpes.

Don't worry about any decision you made about this upcoming business trip UNLESS IT IS TO THE SAME PLACE .

...

It's to the same place.

A different hotel, at least. Although I'm worried about our relationship and about potential triggers, I'm still somehow not worried about her going back to the other guy. Her life has been shit for the past five weeks due to the events of the last trip, and she consistently expresses a ton of shame and regret. Last time, we thought we were immune to infidelity and never even gave it a thought. This time, it's in the forefront of our minds. She's gone NC and is not cool with the other guy for giving her an STD. Unless she truly is a psychopath, I don't think she's in danger of returning to him.

I really think that what has made so much of the commentary feel like I do, and that you are crazy to marry this woman, is that even in this fucked up world of infidelity, here actions crossed some real evil lines.

It's kind of like how very few WW as a percentage fuck the OM in their home or marital bed, and when that happens it adds to the trauma . Or when a WS sits in therapy and lies to the therapist and goes right back to AP.

Your fiancé, repeatedly sat on the phone with you, told you she loved you, and then right back to her sex buddy minutes later.

Someone should invent a ratings system to measure how horribly an affair might impact you. Was the affair partner an old mutual friend? Did they meet your children? Did you catch them in the act? Et cetera.

Anyway, not that it matters, but due to time zone weirdness, there were always at least a couple hours between phone calls and seeing the other guy, not just minutes. And she's not my fiancé, thank goodness.

What does your gf think about going away for work at this bad time .Did she talk you into letting her go .

No, she didn't talk me into it. Almost the opposite, actually. We kind of followed the same line of thought. At first, we thought it would be fine because either I'd be better or we'd have broken up quickly, and because we both thought that she was in no danger of going back to the other guy. So I told her to go. I told her that that's what I would do in her shoes. Slowly, it became apparent that we were neither breaking up quickly, nor was I getting better quickly, and that this trip would add stress to our relationship. But by the time we realized that, it was too late to back out without serious consequences for her work. It's shitty.

Shortly after my girlfriend agreed to go back on another trip, we told our therapist about it, and the therapist tried hard to persuade us that it would be a bad idea. At that point, it would have been hard to undo, but not impossible. We were foolish not to listen. I was foolish to keep telling my girlfriend that it would be fine. She was especially foolish for listening to me.

no matter what, it won't be as it was and it won't be better. That's just not the way it works. Please don't kid yourself...

This was the time when your relationship was supposed to be the strongest. But it wasn't. This was the time when your love for each other was supposed to help you face anything. You and her against the world. But it wasn't. At least not for her. So when do you think that will happen? If it wasn't enough now, then when?

I don't know. I do hear sometimes that people can come out of an affair with a stronger relationship, even from authorities like Shirley Glass. It feels like a horrible, painful part of my history, but that's never going to change, right? The trauma happened, and I'll be dealing with the consequences of that whether or not I leave her. So given that I can't escape the reality that the affair happened, what's going to make my happy in the future?

Right now, it feels like I'm starting a new post-affair relationship with my girlfriend. Would starting over with another girl really make me better off? If what *I want* is the relationship I used to think I had, and if we can use the affair to inoculate ourselves against future infidelity, wouldn't it be easier to stay with this girl, rather than going through the process of finding someone else?

One bitter twist to all of this: Before the affair, I thought I was happy with the relationship, but I wouldn't have said that I felt a passionate, burning love. Once the affair came to light, I felt like that passionate love had been there all along, and I had just been blind to it. In the context of the pain I was feeling, I felt more love for her than ever before. Of course, I think there's some possibility that that's just an illusion, a mere emotional reaction to the affair, and I'm checking in with myself regularly to see if it still seems real. But I think it might be, and I think she might feel something similar. With the relationship in such obvious jeopardy, she too seems to value it more than ever. And so even though it's bitter to rediscover these feelings only after infidelity, maybe that gives us something to work with. Maybe that gives us a platform for building a new, better, stronger relationship.

I don't know if I believe that, but it seems possible still.

She's going back to the same place...And you're NOT worried she will see him again??

I've been here for several years...I'm happily reconciled, but I stay to help..And do you have any idea how many waywards have broken NC, despite months...even years...of "shit"??

Too many to remember.

Seriously.

Even a few of our former waywards...who have worked their asses off, who were actually remorseful..have broken NC.

And your girlfriend is far from being a former wayward.

You're being naive. Or you're in denial.

I agree. She'll contact him. She'll be curious as to why he lied to her and gave her an STD. She'll want to hear his side of it.

And before you start with, "you guys don't know her like I do," just realize you don't know her either.

you're kind of strangely confident about what you think you know about her. So it's been kind of sad for me to watch you defend her and say what a fine person she is. Because you were utterly wrong about her. Completely. Say it to yourself, "I was wrong." Confident guys need to say that from time to time to get back to reality.

I read your poem. I think it's very good, both poetically and in terms of meaning. It says to me that you understand what happened. I thought it was very emotional.

I'm sure you'll do what you want. Good luck. Just don't be so sure that you know who she is.

[This message edited by mike7 at 3:14 PM, May 23rd (Monday)]

You're being naive. Or you're in denial.

And before you start with, "you guys don't know her like I do," just realize you don't know her either.

you're kind of strangely confident about what you think you know about her.

Ugh.

I mean, yeah, you're right. I see what you're saying.

Maybe it's denial. Or maybe you're wrong after all. I can't tell from where I am. I imagine that must be very frustrating for you. But I do still feel that strange confidence. Like, it's totally inconceivable that, in light of all that she's said and done in the last five weeks, she would go back to him. She promises that he's not even going to know she's there. She promises to call me twice a day to reassure me and support me. She promises that she recognizes that her affair was based on lies and fantasies and that she doesn't have any desire to be with him. And she does seem devastated that she's nearly destroyed her relationship with me.

She promises to call me twice a day to reassure me and support me.

Didn't she call you last time? This doesn't seem like it's a new thing.

look, you can't control her. If she wants to contact him - she will. Whether she stays local or she is there. If she is going to cheat again, she will. it doesn't matter whether it's with this guy or someone else. She can't control him - so the whole he won't know she's there is just denial

That part of all of this, that we have no control over it and they *will* cheat if they want to again, they will hide it, they will grow increasingly better about the lies - that's a shitty pill to swallow. But it is part of acceptance.

I think it's kind of weird she's going back. If you read around on here, it won't take long to see that many WS working on remorse go to varying lengths to make R easier. That doesn't tend to involve booking trips to the same place where the A took place.

If her promises to you make you feel better, then let them. But be honest with yourself that her calling you isn't going to prevent her from cheating. Her feeling bad isnt' going to prevent her from cheating - many many WS continue to return to their AP *because* they feel bad. It becomes a negative cycle of reinforcement. They feel bad, want to escape, return to poor coping mechanisms (AP), feel worse, rinse repeat.

If she's going to cheat, she will. If she isn't, she won't. Just don't buy into words. Actions, not words.

Didn't she call you last time? This doesn't seem like it's a new thing.

Yeah, once a day. But she started occasionally forgetting to call towards the end of her trip... I didn't mind because I was so busy with my own work.

I was totally, totally oblivious last time. She knows it'll be on my mind this time around. It won't be quite so easy for her to lie about it this time.

I feel like my mind is split into a thousand little parts, all arguing with each other. One part is saying: hopefully she does cheat again and you can find out about it! Then you'll finally have clarity! No more second-guessing!

On a side note: I keep hearing that this was supposed to be the "honeymoon" phase of our relationship. I don't think that's true. We had a honeymoon phase for a good year at the start of our relationship, which I think is a normal span.

My concept of the "honeymoon period" is prior marriage. Before kids, debt, family deaths, miscarriages, loss of jobs, major sickness, things you might not sign-up for but might come along. You being busy with work should not be a reason for an Affair ... the thought is that if she has an affair prior to marriage (during the honeymoon period) she how is she going to handle things when it really does get tough?

In the end I don't think you are going to leave her. You've got this image of her as a woman that was so naive and got taken up with a BAD man. You keep glossing over how she was able to have sex with him and then talk marriage with you... I don't care if it was 15 minutes or the next day... she was playing you... for two weeks ...and you seem to enjoy believing her to be this angelic woman that was wronged... not a woman that lied, cheated...

Also, my guess is still that she knew. She could have seen the sores on him the last day or heard something from someone or had suspicions. She knew she couldn't have sex with you unless she told you.

I think it's kind of weird she's going back. If you read around on here, it won't take long to see that many WS working on remorse go to varying lengths to make R easier. That doesn't tend to involve booking trips to the same place where the A took place.

Thanks, Lark.

Even if I'm confident that she won't return to the other guy, the return trip does kind of make me feel like she's not trying hard enough. Like, she sometimes says that she wishes she could do more to help me. But canceling this trip would have been just that! A grand gesture of sacrifice to show that she's putting my needs first.

Except, I *literally encouraged her to go*. So even though I can forgive myself for that (because I was in shock, wasn't thinking straight, didn't understand the implications, etc), I still don't feel like it's fair to lay the blame at her feet.

My concept of the "honeymoon period" is prior marriage. Before kids, debt, family deaths, miscarriages, loss of jobs, major sickness, things you might not sign-up for but might come along. You being busy with work should not be a reason for an Affair ... the thought is that if she has an affair prior to marriage (during the honeymoon period) she how is she going to handle things when it really does get tough?

That's a fair point. And that's something that gave me pause before all of this. I would think, "if I'm having doubts now, what will it be like when we have the stress of kids" and all that. But that was kind of a feedback loop. My doubts in that moment were both the cause and the result of my fears of the future, which never really made much sense. The actual, present-tense relationship was always pretty good.

Until the affair, that is. In which case, I start to think that maybe I need to return to that old line of thinking, as you suggest.

In the end I don't think you are going to leave her. You've got this image of her as a woman that was so naive and got taken up with a BAD man. You keep glossing over how she was able to have sex with him and then talk marriage with you... I don't care if it was 15 minutes or the next day... she was playing you... for two weeks ...and you seem to enjoy believing her to be this angelic woman that was wronged... not a woman that lied, cheated...

I think that reality is complicated. I think her actions went against her own ideals and self-image and that she's genuinely remorseful about it. But I also think that she freely chose to do something horrible and cruel. I do think that she was naive about infidelity and that she didn't think about the possibility or the consequences of getting into it, and that she's less naive now. But I also think that she bears the ultimate responsibility for my pain.

Maybe it's denial. Or maybe you're wrong after all. I can't tell from where I am. I imagine that must be very frustrating for you. But I do still feel that strange confidence. Like, it's totally inconceivable that, in light of all that she's said and done in the last five weeks, she would go back to him. She promises that he's not even going to know she's there. She promises to call me twice a day to reassure me and support me. She promises that she recognizes that her affair was based on lies and fantasies and that she doesn't have any desire to be with him. And she does seem devastated that she's nearly destroyed her relationship with me.

Confused and Lark used to tell me the same thing and I thought they were wrong. I thought everyone was wrong here.

My WW was caught using her daughter to help cover up for a break in NC. I caught her and she apologized and said she was sorry and it was over now and all...

She has five children with me age 5-16 and dozens of friends that would be appalled with her if anyone found out she was cheating on me. Surely she would give him up... surely now she saw the damage she had done.

She seemed so sorry at the time. We went to marriage counseling to work things out and recover. I knew her for 23 years...

But she kept right on screwing him, even as she apologized to me and her daughter. Week after week we went to counseling... she just took it deeper underground. She just was addicted to the way he made her feel.

Yes, she realizes it was all a fantasy and a stupid escape. But she was addicted to it and she just could not give it up. Not for another 6 months.

So don't believe a word she says. Make her prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Until you see a year of clear cut remorse with actions to back it, I would assume she is still in the affair, or at least in her heart.

My wife of 23 years, 5 children all in Catholic school, a thriving dental practice, active in church and community... She could not break it off. She was that hooked. Don't underestimate it.

You are not her enemy. You're just roadkill. Nothing personal toopol. I'm sure she loves you and all, just not enough to slow down or veer out of the way.

Except, I *literally encouraged her to go*

This isnt' that odd. Many of us, after dday, find ourselves encouraging our WS to *do as they want.* This is for varying reasons. For some, it's because they dont' want to be laying out a bunch of restrictions (for various reasons). For others, it's because they want to be supportive. For others, there may be codependency.

What happened after your guys' therapist said it was a bad idea?

ETA: and does she often seek others' input? This could be a way for her to avoid responsibility for her own decisions. Or she may be letting others define her, and she doesn't even know what her own decisions would be

[This message edited by Lark at 3:58 PM, May 23rd (Monday)]

I do hear sometimes that people can come out of an affair with a stronger relationship, even from authorities like Shirley Glass.

Be wary of "authorities." If you really want them, read around here. Thousands of people who live this day in and day out. Are there cases where based on the work put in bring a couple closer or they communicate better, etc? Sure.

But here's the litmus test: Ask any of them if given the choice of their stronger / better marriage post affair or no affair, which they'd choose and I'd be shocked if you found one in a thousand who'd choose the former.

And for the record, your gf hasn't done squat to illustrate she's the kind of person whom you could have that kind of outcome with.

Right now, it feels like I'm starting a new post-affair relationship with my girlfriend. Would starting over with another girl really make me better off?

Ummm...yes. That's what we've all been telling you.

Of course the key point here is that your gf is the one who cheated and betrayed you. Your supposed love and relationship was not enough for her. Another girl won't have that history.

If what *I want* is the relationship I used to think I had...

Why would you want that? The relationship you thought you had was vastly different than the one you actually did have. Why in the world would you want to go back to that? Don't you think you deserve a better relationship than that?

and if we can use the affair to inoculate ourselves against future infidelity, wouldn't it be easier to stay with this girl, rather than going through the process of finding someone else?

Not sure how one uses an affair to protect against another one occurring. But I'm not sure what you're saying...too damn hard to find someone else so might as well stick with the girl who cheated on me?