SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Also, remember that rats are nocturnal, and psychologists are not.

AFAIK, most psych experiments are done on the psychologists' schedules, not the rats'. We know people on night shifts have problems people on day shifts don't. It's probably the same for rats.

My own experience is that sex has gotten better over time, because my W & I know each other better. That's the main reason I don't get sidetracked into wanting a new partner. Also, my interest in getting it on with my partner has not waned. She might add, 'whether she (thought she) was receptive or not'.

Based on some SI posts I remember, I believe I'm not alone.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:12 PM, May 14th (Saturday)]

Unlike the rats, a lot of waywards don't stop having sex with their old partners. They keep having sex with both the old ones and the new ones.

Don't most animals only have sex when they are fertile, or ovulating? So, if the girl rat wasn't ovulating at that moment, then wouldn't that make the male rat not interested?

I don't think male rats think "Oh hot new girl rat, I want that!"

This is a silly study, IMO

SisterMilkshake,

You are twisting yourself into a pretzel fretting about this shit, Malibu. This is stereotyping males. This is the old fashioned debate about is monogamy possible. Yes, monogamy is possible. We are not victims of our hormones, urges and wanton desires. We have control over ourselves and our choices.

I am, and I am having a hard time believing I'll ever trust again. If we were to split, I can't see myself trusting someone to be faithful. My H shares a commitment of marriage and parenthood with me and strayed. How do I begin to believe someone without those bonds to me will feel a sense of loyalty and fidelity?

deephurt,

MBB- get a new therapist- if my IC or MC suggested that men or women have an A because they get bored-I would fire them on the spott. What a cop out and certainly not an excuse. If you are bored, you end your M or find a way to spice up your M, you don't go have an A and completely destroy your M and your BS. It was a decision, we are capable of controlling ourselves. You WS as well as mine made horrible decisions, over and over to do what they felt like at our expense.

Her statement threw me off. Am I never bored? Of course, but I didn't go out and have a LTA to amuse myself. I've never had therapy before, and I know it takes time. But I am starting to feel already that my friends and family who truly know me might just be the better choice to stick with. Especially after my therapist sat there munching on crackers as I was asking how to deal with the OW taking up so much of my head space. What could I do to redirect my thoughts? Never got an answer to that BTW. I'll give it some more time but right now the only positive is the Xanax I've been able to get.

I apologize to the moderators, I didn't mean to start a firestorm. It seems on every forum there are posts speculating and discussing certain personality disorders that might be attributed to our spouses. A desperate attempt to explain at least partially how they could do the unthinkable.

When I read about this particular issue, it made me feel a bit helpless. I only wanted to know if others had ever heard of it and if they thought there was any validity to it. His infidelity is horrific to me, and I'm trying to make some small sense out of it.

I am, and I am having a hard time believing I'll ever trust again.

That is perfectly normal and understandable feeling at your point in healing. I feel at this point you don't need to be concerned about trust. You just are going to be very leery about trusting anyone. You have been traumatized. You need to do a lot of processing and healing before you can start trusting again. Don't pressure yourself about future you, you need to be concerned about present you. KWIM?

We are not damned rats, and frankly, I don't like being compared to them!

And in my opinion whoever came up with this "phenomenon" is an idiot! But I also believe in God and what he specifically tells us about infidelity!

I'm not here to debate religion with anyone! I'm just voicing what I believe in & everyone is entitled to their own beliefs as weĺl!

I think this is just another way to justify having sex with someone besides who you said vows to.

MBB, I get that feeling of needing to understand, explain, and then cope with what is going on in your life.

Everything I'm going to write I believe, and please realize that what I'm going to tell you about also applies to me, too.

Psychiatrists and psychologists are people, too. Humans, with their own interpretations of research and reality and life. And not all of them come to the same conclusions as the others and they place emphasis on the things that they read that resonate with them and minimize the things that don't and all of that. Just like you and I and everyone else.

People have a thing called a narrative, or a life-narrative, that explains to them how their lives are now. Sort of a road map of reality, of their lives. Humans have this built in _need_ to explain, to understand. We dig until we find an explanation that suits _us_ and then we typically stop digging. Right now your narrative has been interrupted so you're trying to explain how your life got this way _to_ _yourself_. When you find a sufficiently valid explanation to yourself you'll stop there. Each and every person's beliefs (opinions) makes logical sense _to_ _them_ based upon their life experiences.

Humans also have these things called "working models" (I originally learned the term "mental model" so I'll use that, but later stuff I've read uses "working models" ). We build mental models of everything that we interact with, animate and inanimate alike, and we use these working models to predict what will happen.

An example: My mental model of a snake is roughly "cylindrical angry thing that bites", so my mental model of interacting with a snake includes the snake biting me. Using this model I stay away from snakes. A herpetologist's mental model of a snake is a whole lot "better", more informed and complete than mine, and includes ways of interacting with snakes such that he doesn't get bitten. My mental model, my "narrative of snakes", my road map of interacting with snakes in my life stopped growing when the explanation of how to deal with snakes became sufficient for my particular needs.

There is a point to all this, and I'm slowly working my way there, so bear with me a bit, eh?

You've seen on the News those people who say, "But Little Bobby would never set fire to the orphanage!" when there's video and eyewitnesses and Little Bobby's clothes are singed and smell of gasoline? Their mental model of Little Bobby didn't include him doing that, but he did. You're sort of in the same situation as they are.

When you met your WH you started building a mental model of him. If he had looked slovenly and asked for money your mental model would have been that of "beggar" and you would have responded as if that were true. Your need for further explanation would have been satisfied.

But he didn't, he responded in such a way that your mental model eventually became that of "potential suitor" and then grew into "suitor" and then into "potential mate" and then into "mate". How did that progression happen?

Our mental models are built by our observations at first. We watch what people do to determine whether we want to continue interacting with them. We watch how they treat us and how that matches with how we expect to be treated (which is a whole other conversation about self respect and requiring good treatment). We watch how they act and react to things and we add those into our mental model.

If your H had asked out 3 other women on your first date your model would have changed, and your label for him would have become "asshole". But because he didn't your narrative of your life became "met a nice guy, went on a date" and your mental model had good stuff added to it. It got "when he's with me he won't try to date other women, he acts right" added.

For those things that we don't observe directly we have holes in our mental model. When there's a hole there we want an explanation for it, and we want one that satisfies us. So we paper over the hole with what we want the explanation to be because that is the most satisfying explanation of all.

So your narrative became "met my husband" and your mental model of him became "husband" and "husband" to you meant a lot of things like "won't fool around" and "will try like hell to provide" and "be a good father" and "won't hurt me, us" and all of that and more, everything that you wanted.

Sadly, just like the friends and relatives of Little Bobby on the News, your mental model of him was faulty. It didn't include his "for shit" coping mechanisms. Your mental model of him included either "no problems" or "will talk to me" and that wasn't the case. He coped with some particular situation by having an A.

Now both your life narrative and your mental model have been thrown into wild disarray. You're (quite humanly and naturally) casting about trying to find something to solve, to explain, how you got here. You're trying to rebuild both of those things as quickly as possible to give surcease to the feelings that come from having both your narrative and your mental model of your H destroyed at the same time.

Those are the questions that you see so often here on SI, "How did my life come to this? How did I get here?" and "Who is this man/woman that I'm married to/engaged to/living with/dating?"

If you've gotten this far, then here's my answer to your question: Is the Coolidge Effect real? Yes, it is. In rats. Does it explain why MBB's H had an A? No, because he's not a rat (others' opinions notwithstanding).

What does explain MBB's H's A? He has for-shit coping mechanisms. For him, the answer to "how to cope with this set of circumstances" has become "have an A".

What explains MBB's Counselor's explanation of A's as "men get bored"? Why, mental laziness. Your Counselor asked themselves the question "Why A?" and came up with the mental gem of "boredom" and that was enough for them to stop digging. Based upon that, _my_ mental model of your counselor is veering towards "incompetent professional" and my life narrative tells me to steer away.

That's a lazy explanation, especially from someone specializing in answering questions like "Why do people do X"?

There's an old play on words that goes "With friends like that, who needs enemas?" Twist that into "With Counselors like MBB's, who needs Counselors?"

You need a new counselor. One that recognizes that the easiest explanation is not necessarily the correct one.

See, the whole reason that SI'ers (and others) insist that the WS needs IC is to dig into exactly what in the WS's narrative, mental model of life and love and commitment and how to treat others, allows the WS to come up with the answer "Have an A!"

Boredom is not the answer to Why.

[This message edited by devotedman at 10:13 AM, May 15th, 2016 (Sunday)]

Actually the research among human beings suggests the opposite.

Studies suggest that women are likely to experience diminished sexual interest in their partner over the course of a long term relationship while men are not. One study was done by researchers Sarah Murray and Robin Milhausen, both of the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada.

If you do a little reading you will see studies done on humans not just rats.

I don't dispute the numbing effects of porn and the escalation in sexual acting out it can trigger in some.

That really was not remotely the point of the first post, which simply involved male rat copulation with newly introduced rodents. Rats don't delve much into porn, to the best of my knowledge—It wasn't driving the urge to copulate with hot new females.

There *are* human studies related to porn use and escalated acting out. But porn use cannot be extrapolated to the male of the species as a whole. We are not rats, nor do all humans respond in the same way to stimuli. Not all humans who drink become alcoholics. Not all drug users become addicts. Not all who have sex become sex addicts. Not all who use porn experience problems.

None of which is more than very peripherally related to the cited study.

Not to try to t/j too much, but solus sto pointed out a great thing to realize about animal studies:

Rats don't delve much into porn, to the best of my knowledge

And that is, do we even know A) is there such a thing as Rat Porn, and B) would we recognize it if we saw it?

Anthropomorphism (attributing human behaviors to non-human things) is a real problem in animal studies. And it is so easy to do. Most of it is inadvertent since we are so attuned to how humans respond we, sloppily, look for the same response in other animals.

I'm suddenly reminded of pain studies in species X (I forget what X was. Fish? Fruit flies? tadpoles? ) Because X didn't react with grimaces and ineffective flopping about when in pain like humans do it was assumed that X didn't feel pain. But when the definition of Pain was expanded to include "inappropriate reaction to the level of stimulus" then X _did_ react in "Pain".

That definition of "inappropriate reaction to the level of stimulus" is something like devotedman gets burned, "pain" resulted. Now dm runs farther away from any fire than necessary to avoid getting burned. Farther away than he can feel the heat from the fire, for instance.

Really interesting stuff.

devotedman,

Amazing reply. Thank you.

What does explain MBB's H's A? He has for-shit coping mechanisms. For him, the answer to "how to cope with this set of circumstances" has become "have an A".

So how do I even begin to move forward? He is not in therapy and honestly I can't ever see him going. His narcissism wont let that happen. And if his destructive lack of coping skills is never addressed, how the hell do I ever feel safe?

And if boredom is truly not a factor, and variety isn't coveted then how is it that porn is a billion dollar industry? Prostitution wouldn't be doing so well either.

Believe me, I'm not lookjng for boredom to be the excuse. On the contrary, it pisses me off royally. I NEVER turned him down. I was the one complaining about not having nearly enough sex. It was really good between us, and I know I can push his buttons just fine. If anything I was becoming deeply frustrated by having to go months at a time without. Guess my rat just couldn't handle keeping up a sex life with me when he had his MOW taking care of him.

There are plenty of us men who relish sex with someone whose needs and desires are well known. I know the initial sexual encounter with someone is exciting, but it's better with someone you really really know, IMO.

The Coolidge Effect is relevant when an individual becomes addicted to porn. And yes, it is possible to become addicted to porn, especially when it is used primarily to escape an uncomfortable mood. Which means that those with untreated mental illness and/ or very high stress are at higher risk.

Continuous porn use will eventually lead to the Coolidge Effect, in which one's mate no longer triggers sexual arousal. In men, this leads to erectile dysfunction with one's partner. There are likely also physiological responses in women - but the obvious one is lack of arousal with one's partner.

Of course not everyone will want to view this much porn.

Picture Julia Robert's relationship with her husband in Larry Crowne. Her supposedly intelligent former professor husband was a blubbering porn addict who had absolutely no interest in Julia Roberts, or much else, instead watching excessive porn and inanely fantasizing about "big boobies".

It's all programming, and we need to be selective as to how we program our brains.

How do I know this for a fact?

My SAFWH's LTA with a SAMOW. Both highly intelligent, professionals, regarded as community leaders - but with secretly out of control porn habits. They met online, and he made the jump to physical affairs when the porn-induced ED kicked in. His brain no longer experienced me as "sexy" - even though anyone with a functioning brain would rate my attractiveness as much higher than an obese, unattractive woman who spends her spare time working excessively, eating cake, masturbating to porn, and feeling proud that she can get other women's husbands off on the Internet and in person.

I still sound a little bitter, don't I?

.....working on that.

First, I do appreciate the thank you.

Okay, now please realize that we're delving into devotedman's mind, narrative, and explanations.

Here's an example of good communication and how it (should) work:

I'm being open. I'm being honest. I'm exposing my basic assumptions so that you can decide whether dm is full of shit or not. I'm letting go of the outcome, that is, I won't keep harassing you with the same crap until I wear you down _and_ I realize that it doesn't impact me whether or not you decide that I'm full of shit.

I always try to apply the Scientific Method: What other possible explanations are there? Have they been ruled out? How do I go about ruling them out? And, maybe most important, What is my logical basis for believing the explanation that I choose to believe? Is it well-grounded in supported and supportable, demonstrated _fact_?

That said, here we go!

I'm going to be questioning your assumptions and interpretations for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I don't know why you assume/interpret things in the way(s) that you do. Second, maybe demonstration and practice for realizing when we're making assumptions and interpretations. Assumptions and interpretations aren't bad when we realize them for what they are, but they can be bad _for_ _us_ when we mistake them for reality and pin too much belief (our happiness and lives) on them being correct.

So how do I even begin to move forward?

Realize that "forward" doesn't necessarily mean "getting what I now want". Here on SI "forward" means combinations of "out of infidelity" and "facing reality" and "realizing that I'm worth getting what I want" and, sometimes, "my WS is an albatross around my neck and I cannot get what I want and need whilst carrying that particular albatross".

If you can find some of my earliest posts (re: xWGF) you'll see a sniveling shell of a man who wanted his particular reality (xWGF loves me, wants me, and is just a victim of OM) so badly that he basically ignored what people _who_ _had_ _been_ _there_ and back were telling him. "Oh, my WS is different!" I was saying loudly enough to almost convince even me. And the survivors of infidelity saw that I was doing exactly the normal things and were kind, very kind. Kind enough to hit me upside the head with 2x4's of Believe Actions Not Words and 4x8's of She's Where She Wants To Be.

You begin to move forward by listing out, on paper so you can re-read and correct, exactly what you want and need and how you can to get there. Write down two sets of goals about _you_. Where Does MBB Want/Need To Be Now? and Where Does MBB Want/Need To Be In Future? Then start writing down how to get there, and using you as the only person appearing in those goals. Then consider this for a bit. Only then can you _really_ start seeing how WS can help you achieve your goals or hinder them.

Start with simple goals like "MBB Wants Truth", "MBB Wants a Measure Of Calm", "MBB Wants to Be An Equal" and "MBB Wants Agency". Agency is the ability to make your own decisions on the basis of reality. WS removed your agency from you by lying. MBB was living in the world of WS Won't A when the reality was WS Has Already A'd. You just didn't know it. Your agency was stripped. Demand it back.

He is not in therapy

That, right there, really does tell you all that you need to know, in _my_ opinion. Remember Actions, Not Words? _You're_ the one seeing a counselor over _his_ affair. Think about that. He's saying that he doesn't need to seek out his Why(s). He is telling you this by not going. And your counselor is indirectly supporting that by giving (crappy) speculation about someone that they haven't met. Sometimes that is okay, like when you're just asking about possible causes, but your counselor should really be realizing your disruption of narrative, mental models of life and H and relationship, and shouldn't be speculating because they know that you'll desperately try to explain things with a professional's speculations.

You're telling him that you need to understand his Whys so that they can be addressed if you're ever to feel safe investing emotions in him. He's telling you, "Nah. Too much trouble."

That was the 2x4 of Actions, Not Words and the 2x4 of When He Shows Who He Is Believe Him

honestly I can't ever see him going

Gently, MBB, this is a conclusion on your part. He's surprised you before. Your mental model of him is faulty. Not completely wrong, but faulty. You may be right that he won't go. You may be wrong. Remember, you didn't think that he'd have an A with someone. Your logical basis for assuming that _his_ actions will fit _your_ guess as to his actions is flawed.

That was the 2x4 of Mental Models Are Never Complete

His narcissism wont let that happen

Gently, narcissism is a word and diagnosed Narcissistic Personal Disorder is a clinical diagnosis made by a qualified professional. Lots of people around here confuse the two by trying to apply labels too quickly and/or without sufficient qualifications to apply those labels/diagnoses.

Let's say that he displays narcissistic tendencies. Now, the only way to change is for him to realize, correctly, _why_ he displays those tendencies and address those problems. Sometimes people with low self-esteem display narcissistic tendencies as a "fake it til you make it" or denying, "putting on a mask" to push people away tactic.

Because I've had self-esteem problems in the past (and currently? who knows) I tend to accept that sort of explanation of behavior as understandable. I can identify with it, been there, done that. That doesn't mean that self-esteem is the issue, just that it is easy for me to understand and use as an "explanation" that satisfies me. (That was being open, honest, and exposing my assumptions.)

Now, if you're right, then how do you deal with a narcissist in a healthy way? In My Honest Opinion (IMHO), you run far away. They can't be wrong, it has to be all about them all of the time, and they're not overly concerned with empathy for others. Without help, they're not healthy to live with. There's an old saying, "How do you recognize a Narcissist? Everyone around them is in therapy."

That was the 2x4 of Save Yourself First. You can choose to be around unhealthy people. It is hard as hell to be healthy while doing so.

And if his destructive lack of coping skills is never addressed, how the hell do I ever feel safe?

You don't.

It is literally that simple. If he never addresses why he does things that destroys others close to him then you can't be close to him without being destroyed. You might co- or parallel- parent with him. But if you love him and live with him you will be destroyed.

There's a mnemonic here on SI:

Don't

Ever

Think

About

Changing

Him/Her

Because _you_ can't. Only they can.

Gently, MBB, that is the 2x4 of Oh God This Is Hard

And if boredom is truly not a factor, and variety isn't coveted then how is it that porn is a billion dollar industry? Prostitution wouldn't be doing so well either.

Boredom is a state of mind. Who controls the state of my mind? I do. Selected people that I'm close to have the ability to influence (to differing degrees) the state of my mind because I allow it. What my kids say I really take to heart. What my xWW says? Not so much.

Boredom might be a _factor_, but it isn't a universal reason that people have sex with other people. Please realize that reasons, explanations, and excuses are different things. A reason or explanation can tell us _why_ something happens without excusing it.

Variety (sexual variety) is the glittering ball of "other people desire me". The real question is, why does it matter to you if other people desire you sexually?

I've talked on SI about being a sexually abused child. That's open and honest. I've talked about the fact, and feelings arising from it, that I've had more partners than the norm. I've said, openly and honestly, that there was a period in my life that I wasn't emotionally "safe" for others. I've also said that during that time or times I've avoided becoming important to someone, avoided posing as "safe" when I knew that I wasn't.

During the sexual variety phase of my life, did I covet the variety? Did I enjoy the sexual variety itself? No, not really I didn't. I was young and seeking acceptance and approval in the only way that I knew how to get it. The only way that I had been trained to believe that I mattered or could matter. To state it very simply, Then I Got Better. Getting better took a lot.

Porn is a tough subject because it isn't simple at all and neither is its consumption. Some watch to get titillated. Some to avoid interacting with others. Some because they've become jaded for various reasons (that's titillation again, sort of). Some to escape. Porn is "easy" and is replacing people's sexual fantasies with porn. A recent study of fantasies vs. porn indicates that they're becoming less fantasy, less mental activity, and instead becoming more watching someone else doing something. Other studies show that people watching TV basically shut down critical thinking and instead zone out and become a simple receiver of whatever is on TV. Those are simplifications of the studies but if you're interested you can google for more info.

Prostitution is sort of the same thing. Both sides trade something of value to the other for something that they (think that they) need. The John trades money, the Prostitute sex.

Prostitution isn't about variety, it is about satisfying a need or perceived need in an unhealthy way.

Basically, people tell themselves what they want to believe and then believe it. That happens all the time.

Welcome to the 2x4 of Things Are Seldom Simple.

Believe me, I'm not looking for boredom to be the excuse. On the contrary, it pisses me off royally.

Not trying to be a smartass here, but do you mean excuse or explanation? Explanations often don't excuse.

I NEVER turned him down. I was the one complaining about not having nearly enough sex.

The reasons behind an A are almost never about not having enough sex. They're spread over a whole host of problems that could be solved by communicating with the appropriate person. As an example, did you A because you didn't have as much sex as you desired? No. Did he? No.

Could he have spun himself a narrative that went like "MBB has indicated to me that she would like more sex. I am failing MBB. I am Not Good Enough. If I am not good enough then she can't love me. If she doesn't love me then I will find someone who will." ?

Possibly he could've. The main point is to look at the above narrative and look at how many I's are in the narrative. The number of I's in the narrative and the lack of urge to communicate with MBB in the narrative are indicative of selfishness. The real thing to take away is to understand that people will spin and twist reality so that they're justified in their own minds to do horrible, hurtful things to others.

_If_ he wasn't getting his needs met, or he was being mistreated, or whatever, the correct thing to do would have been to come to you in open, honest communication. You both (with agency) might have decided to end it, or to work on it, or to compromise, or whatever as married team. Instead he removed your agency and replaced it with his own.

Basically, he gaslighted and blameshifted and justified in his own mind without bothering to really sit back and question Why? and What Will My Actions Do To MBB? And that's selfish when it is all boiled down. Just selfish. Crap coping, no matter the explanation behind it.

It was really good between us, and I know I can push his buttons just fine.

What you're discovering here is that it isn't about the actual sex, no matter what anyone says. It is about thoughts, feelings, and conclusions made both long-ago and today and their effects on others.

In the end, and for the questions of "is he safe to invest in emotionally", it doesn't really matter Why? The answer to that question is "No."

Now, a different question of "what has to be done before he is safe"? has a different answer. He must seek out his Whys, with help, and really, really want to change them.

And yet a different question is "What does MBB need him to do so that she can feel safe?" The answer is, basically, that she needs to be able to trust him again. He needs to prove himself to be trustworthy "for realz" and not because you've built a (faulty) mental model where he is trustworthy. I can't really answer that question or even give a first-person opinion because I've never been in a true R. Iv'e been in a blameshifted, gaslighted one, but not a real one.

If anything I was becoming deeply frustrated by having to go months at a time without. Guess my rat just couldn't handle keeping up a sex life with me when he had his MOW taking care of him.

Gently again, I will swing the 2x4 of It Isn't Just About The Sex. Insert sad smile of understanding here.

Holy smokes Devotedman!! Thank you for that well thought post. I will be saving it!

Let me begin by saying DAMN DevotedMan! That has to be one of the most incredible posts I've read to date on SI. Just wow! This will be printed out and kept with me to reference quite a bit I suspect.

I have much to reply to that epic post, but currently am at my son's hockey game. I came to warm up in the car for a few minutes and became engulfed reading your very detailed answer. So for time sake, having to get back to the game and not wanting to type all that I have to say and ask on my iphone, I'll be back later.

I also need some time to pick my jaw up off the floor and nurse my 2x4 wounds. Ouch! But you're saying things I need to hear and again I appreciate you taking the time to go so deep into your response.

Thanks, but please realize that people write books about this stuff so I'm simplifying a bit for these long posts.

DevotedMan,

Here we go.

Start with simple goals like "MBB Wants Truth", "MBB Wants a Measure Of Calm", "MBB Wants to Be An Equal" and "MBB Wants Agency". Agency is the ability to make your own decisions on the basis of reality. WS removed your agency from you by lying. MBB was living in the world of WS Won't A when the reality was WS Has Already A'd. You just didn't know it. Your agency was stripped. Demand it back.

I have been thinking a lot about what I want lately in both the present time and in the future. You pretty much nailed several very important ones. Truth is everything to me right now. I'm done with the bullshit. I've been played enough, and lied to enough.

Equality has been a major issue with me for a long time. Once I became a SAHM out of necessity, my WH began to tip the apple cart in his favor. Everything wound up in his name and he had control over finances, billing, banking and I started to feel like I had not much say in things. It just happened over time and I stupidly allowed it. If there's a 2x4 coming for that one, swing away.

Calm. What is that? I've forgotten what it feels like. I know I used to enjoy it, I'd like to have it back.

Remember Actions, Not Words? _You're_ the one seeing a counselor over _his_ affair. Think about that.

Oh I have, and I do. Especially as I'm sitting in the waiting room to see my therapist.

Here's another SI favorite:

We train people how to treat us by what we accept from them.

Very true. Another:

The person who puts the most into the relationship has the most to lose.

So, MBB, in your relationship who has been putting in most of the relationship work?

The things where you quoted me above, I should have replaced "wants" with "deserves". That was careless on my part. There _is_ a difference. That was my mistake and I do regret that one particularly much. I apologize and hope that I didn't lead you astray. Words matter. Especially to someone who is in the learning phase as you are.

Here's another:

If you do it, own it.

Have a fistbump, sister in adversity }{

[This message edited by devotedman at 11:36 PM, May 15th, 2016 (Sunday)]

That post obviously wasn't done. Hit the submit button by mistake. Now where was I?

Yes I do think about the insanity that I am the one getting professional help and meds for the anxiety he's caused me. It feels like I'm paying the consequences for his actions.

Gently, narcissism is a word and diagnosed Narcissistic Personal Disorder is a clinical diagnosis made by a qualified professional. Lots of people around here confuse the two by trying to apply labels too quickly and/or without sufficient qualifications to apply those labels/diagnoses.

Well he always thinks he's right. He loves to fluff himself up. He didn't need to look for ego kibbles, he gives enough to himself. Loves to talk about his interests, his job, himself and his friends joke about how he talks about how great he is. Loves attention and makes sure he is seen as well as heard.

But he's also a hard worker, very smart, funny, helps people whenever he can, is a good dad and has always been, until recently, a stand up guy.

I was looking at the boredom issue as a possible explanation not an excuse. There is no excuse.

Could he have spun himself a narrative that went like "MBB has indicated to me that she would like more sex. I am failing MBB. I am Not Good Enough. If I am not good enough then she can't love me. If she doesn't love me then I will find someone who will." ?

Not even a remote possibility. He knows that he is the love of my life. He knows I love him deeply. He's always known this, and I've made it abundantly clear.

_If_ he wasn't getting his needs met, or he was being mistreated, or whatever, the correct thing to do would have been to come to you in open, honest communication. You both (with agency) might have decided to end it, or to work on it, or to compromise, or whatever as married team. Instead he removed your agency and replaced it with his own.

Basically, he gaslighted and blameshifted and justified in his own mind without bothering to really sit back and question Why? and What Will My Actions Do To MBB? And that's selfish when it is all boiled down. Just selfish. Crap coping, no matter the explanation behind it.

Communication has been a problem over the years. He would throw his tantrums and when I would stick up for myself he would storm away and shut me down. Had he just been able to sit down and talk TO me instead of. AT me it would have made the world of difference.

And yet a different question is "What does MBB need him to do so that she can feel safe?" The answer is, basically, that she needs to be able to trust him again. He needs to prove himself to be trustworthy "for realz" and not because you've built a (faulty) mental model where he is trustworthy.

I don't know that I can feel safe again. I keep saying if it had been a one night stand, I think it might have been slightly different to process. But the fact that he had a LTA has me reeling. Thinking of years of lies and betrayal. The planning, the well oiled machine it had become obviously. The sense that the past several years were nothing but lies. Not being able to look at photos, videos or think of any memories from that time period because all I can think about is what was really going on. It's deeply unsettling.

I don't think you're full of shit DevotedMan. If anything you seem to know your shit. If my therapist were able to talk to me like that maybe I'd start to feel like we're getting somewhere after our appointments.