SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Starting from scratch is a baking term. It's come to mean starting all over again from square one. It cannot and does not apply to human relationships. Our brains are not biologically wired that way. If you have your mind wiped like a Men in Black movie then yes, you could start from scratch.

Chappie is spot on. Serial cheaters do not get better. They white knuckle their way through life trying to fight their wiring. The vast majority can control their behavior for short periods of time at best.

Now maybe you feel like she is the best you will ever get. Maybe you think no one else will come along. Maybe you have co-dependent issues or low self-esteem. But what ever is going in in your head, that is keeping you from seeing this situation for what it really is, deal with it.

Any, and I mean ANY, future with a serial cheater will be fraught with pain and anxiety.

Know this. The world is full of women who do not cheat. Who are of quality character. Who will love and respect you the way you deserve to be. Your "wife", despite what she is saying now, is incapable of this.

How do I know this? Because she has NEVER loved your respected you. Her actions have proven this.

“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.” Maya Angelou

I told her that if there was anything else I needed to know she needed to tell me then otherwise we wouldn’t be able to move forward.

What does this mean?

I thought it meant if you found her lying again, you'd end the marriage. Did it mean something different than that?

Every time she tells you a new story, you act like it is the truth. Including the current story.

She admitted that for the last 18 months she’s been having an affair with Mr A. Hotels a couple times a month, any opportunity at work. We got married in the midst of her having an affair. It took her a whole 5 days after we married until she called him. It took a whole of 2 weeks until she slept with him.

Back to Mr B. She said she ended the affair with Mr A in October, she said she wasn’t interested in Mr A anymore because Mr B was now her main interest.

This is not a character flaw. This is a lifestyle.

He asked if she was staying over but she told him she “wouldn’t get a pass with everything that’s going on” (referring to me believing she’s having an affair with Mr A)!

OUCH! This is a lifestyle.

You catching her is just another day at the office for her. It didn't even slow her down, she just shrugged it right off like a professional.

"Hi, I'm Mr. superlee, what is your name young woman? Oh, Mrs. superlee is a lovely name. I love you."

You are so invested in the marriage, you are willing to just yell "do-over!"

How do you start from scratch? Describe how you would do it. I can't quite figure out how that could even happen.

Not too many like this here. 18-month affair starting well before the wedding. Switching from one other man right into a replacement other man. When did this type of stuff first start in her life? It can't be that she just started doing this since you met her. This is not how a "rookie" cheater does it.

I think something is wrong with her. That is my opinion.

Why was she having affairs? Did she say why she did them? Did she say this is the only two times she ever cheated?

[This message edited by wk55hn at 8:14 PM, January 14th (Saturday)]

Thanks everyone, for all the replies.

A lot of people are saying that we’ve never had a relationship where there hasn’t been a boyfriend, but this isn’t completely true. We were together for four and a half years before we married. We had an amazing start to the relationship. I suppose like everybody does, but this was different for me when it started. I believe her when she says it was different for her too. It was amazing, yes we had awesome sex, yes she’s incredible to look at, yes she makes me laugh, and yeah that feeling in your gut when you’re not together but think about each other. You know the one that only lasts a split second but is there every day. I believe we both had that.

I agree that we’ve never had a marriage without her having a boyfriend, so I know that the whole concept of marriage is either something she doesn’t fully understand or absolutely doesn’t care about but there hasn’t always been an affair. Importantly, there is a foundation.

Does this change anyone’s opinion?

Chappie – yes the sex life has always been often and fulfilling, a better way of describing it is the sex has always been consistent and great. I can’t remember a time where it we haven’t done at least once a week. Thinking back, the sex was on many occasions the day before, the same day or the following day as the sex she was having with her AP. Is recreational sex less of a deal-breaker than shopping for a different partner?

Sharkman – I was told about the 20th October event by the Mr A’s wife, but she doesn’t know everything I know at this point. I am going to tell her but I find it difficult to make that decision and I will find it very hard to do it when the time comes. I’ve discussed it with my wife and she is unhappy that I am going to do it, and she doesn’t want me to, but she recognises that it’s all completely selfish. For Mr B I feel very different about it. I want to tell Mr A’s wife for many selfish reasons, I want to punish him, I want to make sure that if it’s not over yet then it will be, I want to know every little detail and think that if my wife hasn’t already then what Mr A says to his wife would get fed back to me.

Mr B, however, whilst I have so many terrible feelings toward him, he took a conscience and moral decision to say no when my wife inviting him to sleep with her – he said no. He ended it when I found out. He’s the better person out of the three that have cheated here and can Mr B and his wife be happy without me telling her about the emails and the drunken kisses? I don’t know whether I am being selfish or not here, but if I didn’t tell Mr B’s wife, they may live a happy life without her ever feeling this pain. It may have been enough of a shock for him to not to this again. They also have two kids.

At this point I don’t think I’m going to tell Mr B’s wife, but definitely telling Mr As. Please tell me if this is wrong.

To kind of answer everyone’s advice, this is what we’ve currently decided;

We’re going to remain living in the same house but in separate bedrooms.

We’re going to both get IC and work on our own issues first.

We’re not going to commit to anything or make any decision hastily.

Also this is what she’s offered me so far:

Given all passwords to social media, email, phone records. Given me access to bank statements and credit card bills.

She installed a tracking app on her phone.

She’s bought the book Not Just Friends.

She’s talked about counselling.

It was her that suggested we takes things the way that are going to.

All of this has more or less been suggested by her, I had to ask for her phone bills, and asked to see her credit card statements but everything else has been her.

She has admitted to other affairs in past relationships, there hasn’t been anything as extreme as what she’s done to me but they’ve been there. I think she’s a serial cheater and she knows that. She doesn’t want to admit this to anyone though, I asked her to tell someone and she’s refused – I don’t know if this is fair from my part. If she is ashamed of this like she says she is then it must be insanely difficult to admit this to a friend or family member – I recognise this, - but I feel that if she can admit it to someone she can accept there’s a problem and one that she needs to change. I don’t know really, I think it would help me but I know it wouldn’t help her.

I also wanted to say that I haven’t been the best husband, how can one be a good relationship partner if there’s a hidden porn addiction that constantly exists. It made me less able to show her the love and attention that she needed. I’m not saying that this is an excuse for fucking someone else for 18 months, but we argued when she found it on the odd occasion and told me how it made her feel and it wasn’t good. I betrayed her by looking at porn.

I can change. And if I can why can’t she? From the outside every single person tells us we’re the perfect couple. If this can be rescued it needs work from both people.

She wants to get IC, she wants to change.

What does your research h on serial cheaters indicate to you?

Sex once a week isn't much. It's barely over the threshold of a sex less marriage of less than three times per month.

Why is it not me re than that? Are either of you turned by the other down or are you low desire? A downward frequency of sex on her part with you might indicate she has fallen in love with the other man. Staying the same or increasing sex with you might indicate she is fullfilling a need for more sex or maybe she just likes recreational sex with other men.

With the porn addiction you might not be giving her what she needs. You say she is attractive so sex with your wife only once a week is odd. Of course at this point, it looks like she is having at least twice as much sex as you.

Since you have access to her phone now, run recovery software like dr.fone to see what she's bee telling her affair partners about her true feelings and their plans together.

First off, stop planning exposure with her. All she's doing in circling back to the and telling them what to expect. A

So stop talking to her about additional exposure to A wife.

And for B wife you're not doing it to punish, you're doing it for three reasons

- it's the ethical thing to do. His wife should know just as much as you

- to stop the affair dead. You don't think she'll try with him again? There are probably 1000 people in this place who said the same thing and were wrong

- to gain an ally. B's wife may have info that you need

Putting this another way, why do you think that you can make decisions about Mrs B's life better than she can, why don't you need an ally and why don't you want to do everything hat you can to get out of infidelity

Superlee I am sorry you find yourself here. You are getting good advice here. I don't agree that not telling Mrs B will be best for her and that she will continue through life having a happy marriage. She has no idea what has been going on in her marriage. She could find out 6 months or 10 years down the road and it will be crushing. She deserves to know now what she is up against right now and make decisions accordingly.

Also agree that you shouldn't be planning exposure with your wife. She is just tipping of the OMs and getting their ducks in a row to minimize the whole thing.

After Dday we all thought our cheating spouses were somehow exceptions to the rule, but in the end they are just your average cheater.

I would spend some time in the healing room reading some good material and also spend time reading some of the more epic threads here. Especially the ones that come back months or years later because nothing really changed.

[This message edited by 1survivor at 6:31 AM, January 15th (Sunday)]

OK, think about this : you're try to build anything from "scratch", you're trying to build from her having an affair even when you two were getting married (this is not "scratch" ).

I think you're afraid to leave your comfort zone.

[This message edited by ivehadit01 at 8:17 AM, January 15th (Sunday)]

Superlee,

Your story is truly heartbreaking on so many levels.

My H's A was 10 years ago and we are doing okay, but I am so saddened every time I go to a wedding, I cannot help but think how I sort of love weddings, watching people take vows to be true to each other forever, but I can't help but think, will they really be? I know about 50% of those marriages won't survive through time.

But at the very least, I think at the time they make the vows, most mean them at that time.

I would say your WW never meant the vows, knew she was cheating and would cheat again even at the time she was stating vows. To me that is awful and I agree with others this is not a marriage and you should seek an annulment.

In one of your posts you said something like you have a potential for such a great marriage. No you don't. That is your dream, not hers and there is nothing you can do to change her to make her into the woman that you wish she was. Yes, she has showed you "who she is."

Superlee, you clearly are a very intelligent man. And an honorable one, too. Why do you have such low expectations for yourself? Don't you deserve someone who will treat you with respect? I hate the word "deserve" but I think it applies in your case.

As to Mr B, my wife had two EAs that she intended to make PAs. Both of these married men turned her down. My wife was the pursuer, she is rather attractive, they had animal interest, but they turned her down because they were married. I did not tell their wives about the EA/flirting.

You seem to be under the assumption that you have some control over her cheating. That if you just hadn't been into porn, she wouldn't have cheated on you.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Your wife is a serial cheater and her default position in a relationship is to cheat.

She needs years of IC to try to understand why she has become such a broken person.

And you seem completely oblivious to the danger ahead. I can tell you want to rug sweep this and are doing a version of the pick me dance.

You are setting yourself up for another dday, and quite honestly, with no kids and hardly any basis for a relationship, I don't know why you aren't leaving. This is coming from someone who believes R can work under the right circumstances.

By the way, your friends couldn't have been more wrong about you being the perfect couple. You deserve so much more and I'm afraid you are lacking the confidence to do anything about it.

[This message edited by Mark6 at 10:34 AM, January 15th (Sunday)]

A little tough love headed your way....

The statistical odds of her continuing to cheat are very very high. This is a fact. No betting man in vegas would put money on her being faithful.

And your feelings about her do not change that fact. Also her actions, buying the books, going to IC etc, do not change those odds much at all.

Everyone here is baffled by you not wanting better for yourself.

But if you really cannot leave her, then you have two options.

1. Put up with her cheating. Either rugsweep and deny its happening. Or just have the once a year big fight with the now empty threats to leave etc etc.

2. Or agree on an open relationship. She can screw other guys, you can screw other women. If you pick this option just please do not have kids. It's not a great relationship strategy you want them to model.

Does this change anyone’s opinion?

No, not at all.

Look, I'm a but who's reconciling with my wife, so I'm not some rabid, pro-divorce guy. But I have 27 years of history and host of factors at play. You do not.

I agree that we’ve never had a marriage without her having a boyfriend...

...but there hasn’t always been an affair.

You're giving her credit for not having cheated on you the entirety of your relationship? As if that's somehow worthy of applause?

No, no, no. She hasn't stabbed me in the back the entire time we've known each other, just 50% of the time. Isn't she just the best?

Importantly, there is a foundation.

No, no there isn't. If you were dating her and found out that she was sleeping with two other men while she was dating you, (but not all the time, just half) and then she told you that she wanted to get married but still planned on sleeping with two other men while being married to you, would you be okay with that? Would you still marry her? Would you say, well, there's a foundation.

She has admitted to other affairs in past relationships...

...I think she’s a serial cheater

Ya think? Of course she is! What's to think about. Commitment and personal integrity are not part of her vocabulary or character.

I also wanted to say that I haven’t been the best husband...

...I betrayed her by looking at porn.

And? So what? What in the world does that have to do with her having multiple affairs while married to you? Look, read what you wrote further above. She's admitted to having other affairs in past relationships. So her having affairs during yours is all about her and has nothing to do with your porn habit or what kind of husband you were.

I can change. And if I can why can’t she?

Don't conflate the two. One is an addiction. The other is a major character flaw.

From the outside every single person tells us we’re the perfect couple.

And what do you think those same people would say if you told them she had two affairs while being married to you and had other affairs in past relationships? That you guys are still the perfect couple? If you told them she walked down the aisle while she was still having sex with another man, they'd say, "Who cares? You guys are so cute together. You finish each other's sentences!" Are you kidding me?

I'm not a psychologist, but honestly, and I mean this sincerely, you both need significant and long lasting therapy. Her reasons are obvious. Yours, for your extreme lack of self-esteem. I'm not trying to be unkind. But why don't you think you deserve infinitely better than this? Don't you think you deserve to be treated with honor and respect? To be loved? Fidelity. Trust. Love. Honor. Commitment. Loyalty. Integrity. Compassion. Humanity. All of these things are absent in your marriage from her standpoint. And you deserve a hell of a lot better than what you got.

Thanks again everyone, I am reading and taking them all in.

I want to make this post a reflection of my outlook on life.

I’m an optimist.

I’m also calm under pressure and generally cool and collected – (I fucking suck at life in these situations though!)

I look at a negative situation and immediately look toward a positive. Because there can be a positive in every situation.

I’m a nice guy (need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy).

Walloped – I’d like to reply to your post further down but before I do I want to use your signature as a case in point.

"Every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa the bad things don’t necessarily spoil the good things or make them unimportant.”

What my wife did was abhorrent. It revolts me the every 74 seconds it re-enters my mind or I learn something new.

My life is nauseating.

But it won’t always be.

I have read, re-read and read twice more all of your posts telling me to get a divorce, that she doesn’t care and has never loved me and I have thought about each one of them.

I came to this forum because I wanted to understand why and how someone could do this. I thought the responses would give me an understanding of what it takes for someone to act in this way. The comments have been devastating. You can all read that I don’t this to end, that I probably haven’t come to terms with it yet and that when it comes to a relationship I’m co-dependant, scared and honestly, stupid.

You’re all saying the same thing. Leave, before it gets worse.

You’re telling me to leave because you all believe that it’s going to happen again. I get this because you must have seen it hundreds, if not thousands of times on this forum. But I have to have faith in humanity. I’d never have visited this website if I wasn’t going through what I am. How many people go through life without needing to visit SI, let alone post anything.

As I said earlier, we haven’t committed to making this marriage work and we’re unlikely to make a decision any time soon.

We have committed to improving our lives though. For ourselves, not for each other. And if we can do that, whilst living in the same house, and being a family, is it not possible that this could naturally redevelop into a happily ever after marriage?

There are so many things that I don’t like about myself, but I am positive that we live in a world where I can change these. I can become the person that I want to become. I know however that I can’t influence or have any control on my wife turning into the person I so hope she can be, but I am positive that we live in a world where she can change. On that here is hope.

Chappie – how does someone put a threshold on a sexual relationship? I am a very sexual person but through porn I ruin this. Between dday 1 and dday 2 our sex life was dramatically different. More adventurous, more often, kinkier. You can say this is manipulation through sex and I have experienced this in the build-up to dday 1 where there was only, but a lot, of suspicion. I couldn’t have done this whilst always looking at porn. This can be sustained because it’s something we both want. Also she read your post about Dr.Fone and immediately suggested we use it. Unfortunately, Mr B interrupted/stopped a lot of communication between Mr A so there wasn’t much to get off of it and I read each email that was sent between her and Mr B by recovering the deleted emails.

Bobby_sue – you say

My H's A was 10 years ago and we are doing okay, but I am so saddened every time I go to a wedding, I cannot help but think how I sort of love weddings, watching people take vows to be true to each other forever, but I can't help but think, will they really be? I know about 50% of those marriages won't survive through time.

But you must get through this, you must get over it. After years is it now easier forgotten than it is remembered?

PlanC –

Why do you have such low expectations for yourself? Don't you deserve someone who will treat you with respect? I hate the word "deserve" but I think it applies in your case.

I don’t know the answer to that. I’m intelligent, I have a good job, I’m a fucking awesome step-dad, I have a fairly toned figure and ladies have always shown an interest. But I think you’re right in that “deserve” isn’t a word that works here. No one deserves half the stuff that happens on a daily basis; you can get splashed by a puddle and it isn’t deserved. Did she do it on purpose to make me feel this pain? No. Was it out of spite? No. That’s not to say that I will ever be able to forgive it. It’s not to say I will ever stop wanting to hate her. But it’s not about whether or not I deserved it or not, it’s about whether or not two people can make a marriage successful, individually.

Ramius –

But if you really cannot leave her, then you have two options.

1. Put up with her cheating. Either rugsweep and deny its happening. Or just have the once a year big fight with the now empty threats to leave etc etc.

2. Or agree on an open relationship. She can screw other guys, you can screw other women. If you pick this option just please do not have kids. It's not a great relationship strategy you want them to model.

3. She changes. She really doesn’t do this again.

Why is there no possibilities of a third outcome? There has to be hope of a third outcome. People have suggested I Google serial cheating. I have. I have read and read and read. From it I have hope.

Walloped – you’re not wrong in any of your comments. They’re tough but they’re fair, and they’re correct. I appreciate every word you wrote, but then I read your signature and it inspired me to write this. “The bad things don’t necessarily spoil the good things.” Yeah I could be back here in two years, five years or ten and be in much worse place. But if I am and there have been ten good years in the middle, ten really good years, would it have been worth it? Can everyone who has divorced definitely say that the years of good times weren’t worth the years of pain? Is it a no across the board?

I’m naïve, I won’t deny that. I’m an idiot when it comes to relationships. I can be manipulated easily, controlled and belittled. But without hope that my character flaws can be overcome then there can’t be hope that others can’t do the same.

Obviously her actions speak louder than her words and you may all feel like I’m a lost cause and you may all be right. It would be easy for me to listen to her and believe her, but I don’t – I want to, and I have done in the past because I wanted to. It got me nowhere. This time I’ve learned. I don’t believe how it ended, I don’t believe it’s over, but I’m going to find out. I found out through perseverance of the previous affairs and I will continue to persevere. And I’ll do that whilst there is still hope that this can be fixed.

Until I make the decision to commit to her, and she has to make the decision to commit to me too, I’m an open book. I recognise that there’s a pretty high possibility that she never loved me, and she’ll end up taking the decision out of my hands when she comes to realise this and that decision will be the right one. As will the decision I make, whether to walk away or stay it will be the right decision.

Without hope there is nothing.

super -

I don't have a lot to add, other than I'm sorry to see you here among us.

I don't have to throw in a bunch because Wk55hn and Walloped and some other very wise veterans are on the case. Read their posts again and again if need be.

Everyone here is on your side, making sure you take care of you. You're in that shock phase and holding on tight to what you thought you had is the very first instinct so many of us had.

Keep reading, keep posting, stay strong.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 4:06 PM, January 15th (Sunday)]

I don't know your wife, so this is all conjecture. But I have to ask: Why seduce all of your bosses? It is an important question for you and for her?

Is it because she seduces every man (unlikely)?

Is it because she has a boss fetish (unlikely)?

Is it because she finds power attractive?

Is it because by exerting power over the powerful she fills a hole in her self esteem?

Is it because...and bear with me here on this one...it is a Machiavellian play to advantage herself? Seduce the boss. If he bites, he will help you advance. If it goes poorly you can blackmail him. That latter scenario would be narcissist or psychopath territory. That kind of person would be a user. They'd use one man to get ahead, another to take care of her son, another to....well, whatever, because men would merely be tools to be used. And they'd know how to act to get what they want.

What do you think her why is?

You’re telling me to leave because you all believe that it’s going to happen again.

I am not saying to leave...but your wife will have more affairs unless she fixes her mental problems. And that is the real life truth.

Your wife has already had two affairs at least, has learned to lie and deceive you for years.

Until she fixes her mental problems, she will have more affairs for any excuse she can come up with.

Have all the faith you want, but she needs to fix her mental issues and right now.

Sweeping this under the rug will most certainly result in her having more affairs.

Superlee it is great to be an optimist. But maybe the good thing that is to come from your wife's affairs is that you get help for your porn addiction and realise that you deserve to be treated with love and respect.

You can't control your wife. You can want 10 years of a good marriage before your next DDay but you won't get that. You are going to get 10 years of wondering what she is up to. 10 years of not knowing if she is "working late" really.

You should be aiming higher than just having a good marriage until your next DDay. You have the chance to get healthy and go and find a wife who will give you 50 plus years of happily married life where your needs and feelings are just as important as yours.

You wife has shown you and told you that she can't be faithful in any of her relationships. This isn't going to change. There is no option 3....

I am so sorry for your pain. The pain that your wife caused you. Reading these responses may have hurt you but it hurts because we are forcing you to look at your wife's behaviour and acknowledge it isn't right.

Keep posting, go to IC and read no more mister nice guy.

Its your life man.

Remember that between the optimist and pessimist is the realist.

There are plenty of people in Vegas right now "hoping" that that marble lands on black 17. Others are "hoping" to get three cherry's on the slots. And they are very optimistic about their chances.

Those big beautiful buildings are built by those people. The casinos are banking on their "hoping" they make it big.

Do not let your hope de-rail your future.

P.S. Walloped's wife had years of being faithful banked before she had her affair. What does your wife have?

You asked me:

But you must get through this, you must get over it. After years is it now easier forgotten than it is remembered?

I'm not sure what you mean.

I did get through it. I still come to the forum because I enjoy the discussions in the community and I hope I can offer someone some help with things I can relate to. I am not still coming here for "help" getting through what happened 10 years ago if that is what you thought.

I don't think about what happened 10 years ago all that often but I remember many things in my life, good and bad and they are part of who I am.

Every story is different and we all have to make our own decisions. I divorced my first H because of many things including he was a serial cheater, and I don't believe he was capable of true remorse. I R'ed with my current H because he was extremely remorseful and he has spent the last ten years showing me that I made a good decision to give him that chance.

I'm only basing my comments on what you said about your situation. I can only say what I believe I would do based on that, and in your shoes I'm quite certain I'd seek an annulment. But I don't want to say that to upset you. It truly is your life and you truly get to make your own choices.