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Thanks Merida,

My wife owns the affairs. She knows they were terrible. I don't feel she fully understands the impact on me yet.

I am owning my part in the marriage. IC figures with how she felt with the ODS, she could have tried to cope with alcohol, drugs, my wife chose this. She chose 100%. She could have picked any number of ways to deal with it but she chose this. And AP#4 doesn't even fit well with the ODS and my wife says she doesn't know WTF she was thinking. So she sees an IC and CSAT.

How we got to where we are today from the most recent DDay? I was in shock. She was being accountable with her phone and time. Seeing IC. Caring for me emotionally and physically.

I hit anger. And did an ODS and related it to the affairs. That spiralled down. Then I demanded that she come back upstairs and hold me (she had gone to sleep on the couch to time out/pause). I said if she didn't come up and support me (be part of my healing) that I was divorcing. She said we need to separate. Well separation is a trigger because she justified A#2 and A#3 starting while we were separated. So I said, nope I will be going to D.

We both talked to lawyers. I got a call at work 2 weeks ago last Friday. My wife says she'd like to talk. So we go for a walk. For the first 1/4mile she couldn't talk. I asked her to just say what she was going to say but she said she needed a minute. So then the next 3/4 mile is her apologizing for screwing everything up, the kids, family, us, etc. I'm thinking, this would have been good about a week ago.

So we sit down and she says would I agree to separation with nesting. She would like to ultimately reconcile if it could be possible. She would like time, she loves me, but the way we are isn't working. I was shocked. I said ok, but I need to talk to a lawyer. So I talk to the ones I met and they said you should still do a separation agreement (we need to be separated a year before we can divorce, we have the start date regardless of what we do right now). So I say I am not nesting. She got upset, I said whatever and hung up the phone. I get a call back. My wife has spoken with all the counsellors and she would agree to in house separation.

(Did I mention I sent a flurry of 4am emails to all the counsellors? That could be a contributing factor )

I say OK. But I am not doing it like before. I want to be loved. I don't care about sex while I'm in the anger phase (6-9 months). I can't have her in bed at 4am when I trigger. I said we need to separate until I can heal and sleep a full night without meds. We can live in the house together, but I want to be loved. Or I can't do it. (That part was ill define but we have an MC session next Monday). I said separation is good while I figure myself out. She needs to figure herself out. I plan to come back and reconcile. She does as well.

Last Wed, she sent me some texts. I was at work and read them wrong. I sent on that said "what are you saying? This should be face to face this conversation, I don't trust you". I spiralled a bit and sent a text that said, "Lawyer up".

So I get a frantic phone call on my way to my car after work. She is explaining what she was trying to say. Again apologizing for the affairs. But she wants me to understand what my part was (One of the emails to her and the counselors was about how many WS's state abuse and it is because they still aren't owning their shit). So she freaked. Wanting to reconcile but not wanting the "old" marriage.

So we are at a stage of in house separation.

She is off with our DD at a volleyball tournament which is a trigger from A#1. We were supposed to go together but separation/divorce screwed with that. Lawyering up affected phone access. My wife is texting me a lot. Our DD stayed in her room on night #1 but has a room with her team mates. So there is some stress there. We'll see. Nothing is set in stone. There are still moments that I think WTF am I doing. But I want to be safe and provide a safe environment. We are talking really well considering the last two weeks. I thought she'd be much more pissed off like she has been in the past. So things are pretty good.

So if you feel there "should" be something more at this stage, does that change your mind at all?

If I need to clarify anything let me know. I decided to have a couple of drinks.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 12:20 AM, May 22nd (Monday)]

My wife owns the affairs. She knows they were terrible. I don't feel she fully understands the impact on me yet

ding ding ding... she seems to still want to minimize the damage and make it easy for her

nesting... um yeah, no... I will imagine as you a bit: (insert sarcasm to this request) sure, after you take a hatchet to my heart how about you practice those amazing compartmentalizing skills and pretend to now be this great mom while at the same time ignoring the reason you got to be a mom with a nest in the first place crazy wayward serial cheater and no kidding the old marriage wasn't working because it's like she's flabbergasted the house fell down and collapsed after she dug this huge crater under the foundation... no kidding that wasn't the way to provide support

It doesn't really seem she understands what her job is gonna be in regards to reconcile.

Now I am not saying to ignore her emotional needs but for her to try to potentially twist a selfish agenda into a sex as control issue would be huge red-flag IMO

I really hope I am misreading into things and please prove me wrong that she is just lousy at communication.

I would focus on detaching and journaling and whatever else to keep you from being manipulated by her "getting upset" if she doesn't get her way.

Thanks Merida,

Yeah it is messed up.

She comes home tonight. She didn't text last night before bed which pissed me off. But even if she did, I still wouldn't trust that there couldn't be another man in the room. On Wed. she made it clear that THIS time separation for her was not going to be a time to date. She was afraid that I might but that she wasn't going to. That what she did was wrong because we were still married.

Ok, so considering the ODS, what "requests" would be reasonable to help toward reconciliation? We are technically separated. Do I sit and watch a bit longer and give her IC and CSAT more time? I've got my codependency book I'm reading.

I got a hug when they left on Thurs. Do I just go slow and give her a chance to warm up? I have to heal either way. My brother and SIL have a BS who they want to set me up with. That complicates things. It is an unwanted diversion. I feel that anything that make the kids feel like the family is divided/separated is not reconciliatory and should be a boundary.

She found out I told some coworkers/employees about the affairs. So she was really mad and embarrassed about that last week. But I told them after she had told me there would be no hope at reconciliation. So I was a mess at work and they helped cover for me inability to work. I get it but I don't. My wife said these aren't your friends, you pay them. So last week she was pissed off.

Anyway... what is fair moving forward?

Dear OP,

Please share the following with your fww.

Your marriage is a human being.

Currently, the human being is laying on a gurney in the hospital with a gunshot wound to the gut and a terrible rash on their legs from the knees down that is of unknown origin, but it does not appear to be spreading, nor is it bleeding.

All medical personal will be focused on the gunshot wound (the affairs, infidelity and susequent bull shit behavior, like lying). They can't really see if the liver has been knicked or the kidneys. They just know that it's a bad deal. All focus will go into testing and probing (reading books, IC, MC etc.) The person will most likely have to have surgery and may or may not be put on life support depending on the circumstances. (surgery equating to great changes in both parties ie you standing up for yourself and what you deserve, her being transparent, empathsizing etc.). The post op period will most likely take a long minute.

Once the human is breathing on it's own and it's no longer bleeding internally and eating and doing daily bodily functions, the medical persons will most likely say, “Hey dude did you know you have this rash (your issues pre-affair)? We should probably treat that (more ic, mc, books, etc.). No doctor in his right mind is going to treat that rash until the life threatening thing is dealt with. That's just how it works.

It's a good visual.

This is where it gets difficult for me and I am stating up front I could be totally 100% wrong, I can totally admit that. My ex had similar behaviors. He was a hypochondriac who was endlessly sick and would get migraines. He would beg me to hold him when he wasn't feeling well. He behaved desperate. First, no one likes desperate, we just don't. Think back to a time you dated a desperate woman. For whatever reason that's just a huge turn off. In my instance, I understand that he was not feeling well, however we both worked full time, were raising five kids, and I was personally responsible for all the housework (inside and out), every doctor appointment, food shopping paying the bills etc. I simply did not have an extra half an hour in any given day. I'm saying this because you've mentioned demanding to be held and what not. I'm not saying you are wrong for feeling that way or hell even asking, I just know what that did to me in the past. Your situation could be entirely different, I don't really know.

I do believe the marriage can be repaired, but not without her putting in her hard ass work. You shouldn't have to ask for changes, this kind of life change should be plain as day. Know what I mean? Like you KNOW her, if she's different, you would notice. If she's not, you would notice as well. FOO shit sucks to deal with. It's hard and painful to give up maladaptive coping methods etc. as well as take responsibility for your own bad behavior without adding a “but” after an apology. FOO therapy that is working usually (btw) makes things much worse before they get better.

Don't forget to check you tube for ross rosenberg, he really is amazing on working on codependency. I would not recommend the book, I bought it, but it's more like a thesis geared towards his peers, rather then a how to book. His videos contain tons of great material and they are free sooooo

Catch, Merida's last 2 posts are awesome IMO! SMS has some insight too (it sorta hurt to type that...)

I want to add something about my fucked up marriage and maybe offer some insight into my feelings on this matter. Prior to the A, sex with my WW was great. Toys, lotions that warm when you blow on them, light S&M, candles, music playlists, roleplay, videos, books, magazines, passion - it was fucking awesome. There was an emotional connection too. There was no need to demand anything, she initiated as much or more than I did. The only issue with sex was finding time for it. We had 3 kids under 5yo at the time of her A. I was working full time and trying to finish my degree. We had just bought a house and money was tight. You all get the idea. Life was busy, often hectic, stressful, but wonderful IMO. We had some communication issues but our problems were really minor. My WW even admits this today.

OM was a coworker. Homeboy put in the time to woo my wife. Constant attention and validation. My WW whored herself out for compliments and validation. I had met the guy and his wife and child a few times. His wife showed up at my house one Saturday afternoon. I was working in the garage. My wife wasn't home. The woman was somewhat hysterical and had been crying so hard she was still sobbing as she spoke. She said "you need to ask your wife about my husband" and basically lost it and walked off without saying another word. I didn't know what to think. I asked my wife about it when she got home and she was visibly shaken and (of course) she lied and said she had hugged him one day and some makeup had smeared on his shirt and his wife was some sort of jealous lunatic.

When I pressed the issue later that evening she played it off and blew me on the sofa. We had sex later that night too. I would later learn that my WW called him earlier that afternoon to say WTF is with your wife. He went ballistic. OBS had changed the locks and he drove his truck through the garage door and beat the shit out her. That wasn't d-day though. I was stupid and believed her lies. She had a 6ish month A with 10-12 sexual encounters. Most of which were in a truck in parking lots. OM sent flowers, left notes, cards, gave gifts, compliments, etc. and she gave him sex. Fairly typical shit as far as affairs go.

I think we all have one of these. The one thing you think of and you can feel the rage boiling up inside you. The one incident that I can recall with that clarity only mind movies have is when she went grocery shopping one Sunday evening claiming we need diapers. She left her 3 little kids and husband to go fuck a dude in the grocery store parking lot. I stayed home and gave the kids baths, played with them, read them a book, and tucked them in bed while she was doing that. How fucked up is that? I had no idea at the time, I stupidly trusted her. So no, I do not respect her. I feel she manipulated me with sex while she was cheating. We never stopped having sex during her A. That tidbit disgusts me

So many years ago we agreed I would stay with her until the kids were grown. Sort of a fucked up FWB nesting situation. She desperately wants things to go back as they were before. I am not the same person anymore. In many ways, she is a much better person now. I can't seem to get past the A either. It really is what Merida said about self respect and dignity. Maybe it's just foolish pride. Sex is a nightmare now. It is completely different. No intimacy, no kissing, rough and rushed. I make damn sure she knows I'm using her. I hate it and so miss what we had before.

So Catch, I have been through some of what you're considering. My WW blameshifted, partly because of shitty MC, and partly because she couldn't stand the shame of being a cheater. From what you've posted, it doesn't appear that your wife has done any self introspection. Why is her response to your supposed abuse to fuck other men? How exactly did that help her with her problem? Have you asked her these questions? Has she offered any insight into her behavior? It appears that she has you jumping through moving hoops in some sort of fucked up pick me dance while she decides what she's gong to do next. I would think long and hard before attempting R.

Catch44,

I'm just reading your story for the first time. All I have to say is, your wife is doing the EXACT same thing mine did.

Now I am not saying to ignore her emotional needs but for her to try to potentially twist a selfish agenda into a sex as control issue would be huge red-flag IMO

I'm not saying that you don't have some things to fix in yourself, but don't let it cloud the issue of 4 PAs on her part.

Thanks smokenfire, I'll look up the videos. I've been reading my book this morning. Interesting.

I agree, I feel the gunshot needs to be addressed.

Again, with the way the mindset about separation, it is to be separate to heal.

Now, I could go back and negotiate and lay down some boundaries. And I'm not sure how to do that without divorce as the ultimate threat. What else is there? Hey, I don't like separation and if we continue to do this then I'm really going to separate. I feel my hands are tied a bit unless I D. If I do that then it goes back to threatening D and feeling safe etc...

Any thoughts?

stayedforthekids,

Your story is painful. I'm sorry. It really sucks and you were robbed of the marriage you wanted.

I was reading my codependant book and the section on "control". How there is a choice between picking control or Grace. I only quickly looked. But I found it interesting that it said the attempts at controlling something turn it around so it is eventually controlling you. So I need to release this... whether the outcome, the marriage, ... I don't know yet. 13YearsR said it takes guts to R. How long have you been in the anger stage? I remember I think it was no mercy saying that WS work so hard to keep the A's a secret because they like what they have. They just want "more". There is nothing wrong with you. There was nothing wrong with the OBS.

I get the feeling crazy. But I also feel like I have choice I can strive to be. From what I get with my ODS. It will hurt you and cause more damage to your marriage. I feel that you are hurt because you lost the love and closeness. I wonder if you made love to your wife today, if that wouldn't help you. Love is a verb. I just want to help. I think if you want to be married, stop digging the hole deeper. If you WANT to be with your wife, then let's all figure that out (as much as is in your ability). It sounds like you aren't leaving and she wants the marriage. And, if both of our wives decide to cheat again we can walk then. How is your self care going? I feel like shit.

xhz700,

Right now, my wife will not bring up what I did when we talk about about her affairs. She doesn't want to "balance" the two. I believe, the yelling and further damage to reconciliation, and the affect on the kids was were the separation was stemming from.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 1:26 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

Boundaries “sound” so simple right? But if you've never had them, it's impossibly difficult. The best I have ever heard them defined (I'm boundary stupid) is what you like, want and will tolerate. You don't have to announce them with like a flourish. It's okay to a) have something happen, b) realize it affects you in such and such a way c) say, In the future, should this thing happen, I expect it will be dealt with this way. Now, I would personally write those things down, because my mind races all day long and it's very very likely I would forget. Refer to the list like weekly to remind yourself what you are expecting and add to it as needed. It takes like 21 days to form new habits so expect it to take a minute to really soak in.

This sounds so simple, I'm aware. I was not raised to have a self or boundaries so I'm learning on the fly.

Anyway... what is fair moving forward?

You are legally separated, in-house separation, with the goal of reconciling? Is this correct?

No way do you meet that other BS, Catch44. How is that going to play out if your goal is to reconcile? Your WW has said she isn't going to date. I can understand why you wouldn't trust her and that causes you much anxiety. But, you "meeting" another BS is not going to help you in a healthy way, imo, to heal. It will add complications, especially if you both "hit it off". You will have time to meet this BS if you do wind up divorcing. You still need to get healthy and end one relationship before you start another. You and your WW ain't over, as far as I can tell.

I am sorry if I missed this, but did you "demand" sex from your WW before she had her affairs or is this a result of your d-days?

I am not going to get into my and MisterSister's whole sexual history/marriage. Suffice it to say my FWH felt entitled to having sex with me whenever he wanted. Unfortunately for him, one of the things that attracted my FWH to me was my feistiness. (not in a bad way) If I didn't want to have sex, whatever my reasons, I wouldn't. I'm feisty like that. He would be an utter asshole to me. It started a vicious cycle that he was an asshole to me before even attempting to have sex with me. And when I turned him down he would up the ante.

When d-day rolled around I didn't know what I wanted. Divorce or reconciliation. My FWH was instantly remorseful, said he would do "whatever it takes". We engaged in crazy HB. It started on d-day. When I finally decided to give him a chance at reconciliation, we started MC.

We both decided we wanted to have a fresh start. We decided to leave our laundry list of resentments behind. And believe me, after 31 years of marriage we both had a long list of righteous resentments. However, he did take full responsibility, finally, for being a selfish asshole throughout our marriage. FWH let his anger go. I don't know how he did it, he says it just kind of evaporated when he realized that his anger was not working for him. When we both decided to let our resentments go, the anger we both felt about being wronged in the past was gone. Honestly, it was as simple as "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?" It is as simple and as complex as that. That is the question that you both need to answer, Catch44.

We both chose that we want to be happy. That alone wasn't enough, though, of course. We both had to do the work on healing ourselves and our marriage. If he didn't take total blame and responsibility for his selfish behaviour regarding our marriage and his affair, I don't feel it would have been possible for us to reconcile.

To reconcile, you truly have to put the past in the past. You have to start fresh. "From this day forward." Of course you both have your fears. You that she will cheat again, her that you will fall into the pattern of "ODS" of the old marriage. You both have to be willing to be vulnerable to each other, you both need to take a leap of faith. There are no guarantees. But, you are both working on yourselves. That is great.

SMS has some insight too (it sorta hurt to type that...)

Catch44, I am a little concerned on that this topic represents an attempt to blame yourself for part of the pain you're feeling from her affair.

I know that you said earlier you're just trying to own your piece of the degradation of your marriage, but I don't know that I really believe that. I think the extent of the damage coupled with hit to self-confidence that both correspond with being betrayed might be the driving force here.

Can you confirm, without a doubt that I'm wrong?

a) have something happen, b) realize it affects you in such and such a way c) say, In the future, should this thing happen, I expect it will be dealt with this way. Now, I would personally write those things down, because my mind races all day long and it's very very likely I would forget. Refer to the list like weekly to remind yourself what you are expecting and add to it as needed. It takes like 21 days to form new habits so expect it to take a minute to really soak in.

Thanks smokenfire. I know right??? I read the book and it was like, ok I'm now going to teach you how to make oxygen (boundries)...

SisterMilkshake,

but did you "demand" sex from your WW before she had her affairs or is this a result of your d-days?

Before, throughout the marriage.

You still need to get healthy and end one relationship before you start another. You and your WW ain't over, as far as I can tell.

No, I'm married. I have to see where this goes first. Lots of texting back and forth today. She is looking forward to getting home to see me.

You both have to be willing to be vulnerable to each other, you both need to take a leap of faith. There are no guarantees. But, you are both working on yourselves. That is great.

Thanks for the encouragement

I have to mention this in general. Last night my wife didn't text me and it sucked. I had all sorts of fears. I wanted to text so badly but didn't. Anyway, got a big long good morning text. Said all the VB players were in her room until 12am so she was so tired. I was thinking thank God I didn't text. But it took a lot of effort. I was happy about that and just wanted to share it.

I pick them up at the airport tonight. Flowers or no flowers? Too much?

Notthevictem,

No, I cannot.

I am trying to understand.

I have a certain amount of guilt related to the ODS. I don't want to blameshift that either.

I am really still processing it. I get angry about the A's, AP, acts, throughout the day. Instead of spiraling in the anger I think about her hurt. I've seen her face when she is panicked that I "don't get it". She could be a great actress. But I am looking at it at face value.

She stopped bringing up the abuse when the affairs are brought up. That was big.

I'm open to the possibility of wrongly self blaming. But I don't feel I drove her into someone else's arms. I feel I opened a door. She took the steps to go out. Related but not directly.

I was denied choice in that decision. So I can't be blamed.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 4:20 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

Might I suggest not working on this at the moment? Not that it isn't a valid marital pitfall that should be addressed in the future, but that it is distracting you from truly healing.

This is much more serious than leaving socks on the floor, but in comparison to the betrayal, it is just as irrelevant.

Catch44, get yourself flowers, not her. You need care and concern and attention--from yourself. Stop trying to nice her back into the M. It is breaking my heart because she does not deserve it yet, if ever. Give yourself all of that focus and affection that you are trying to give her.

You must love yourself first before any relationship can be healthy.

Might I suggest not working on this at the moment?

It is not my focus, but I don't want to neglect it either.

I have my codependency book, my journaling, my self care. I'm trying develop my life independently.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks OwningItNow,

You must love yourself first before any relationship can be healthy.

Sounds good.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 4:26 PM, May 22nd (Monday)]

What are your thoughts?

Well, there's several ways to look at marriage after the day you find out about an affair. I'm not sure what your personal preference is.

I don't know that it sounds like you have truly comprehended the magnitude of everything yet. It sounds like you're still a little bit in shock.

Like you're doing pushups to gain strength when you've got a gunshot wound. Healing has got to come first.

Have you absolutely decided to offer reconciliation?

Notthevictem,

I am still in shock. I am mad about the separation happening at all. But 3 counsellors all felt it made sense and... it kind of does.

I am wondering how I'll ever trust again. I look for AP#4 as I'm running. There is a lot of damage. The grief is overwhelming. Less when I consider the ODS. Which happened so it's not like I made it up to take blame. I have not engaged into life again yet.

Have you absolutely decided to offer reconciliation?

If my wife shows true change and remorse over time.

It is conditional right now.

Even then, there are days where I don't think I can do it.

Absolutely, sure. Unconditionally, no.

I'm trying to figure out what is fair considering the ODS. My options seem to be to wait and see while attempting, or give up and divorce.

That makes a lot of sense. You have a lot on your plate a the moment.

I think you would be better served at reducing unnecessary responsibilities (i.e do you really need a fishtank? etc.) than you are digging into this topic at the moment.

Your grief that you suffering... dealing with that in a healthy should be your number one priority. And really does sound like you're already doing that.

Your fear that your wife might not be interested in reconciliation, or not willing to try to, or try hard enough... or your fear that she could be acting only to do it again in a couple years... that is a natural and normal fear in your situation. I felt it too. But I know now, that there is absolutely nothing I could do it make my wife a better candidate for R. It was completely up to her.

What I guess I'm getting at, is that even if you fix everything you think you did wrong with demanding sex and what you did in wrong in your marriage prior to the affair... well it won't make a bit of difference towards reconciliation right now. Pushups and bullet holes.

If you are going to work on yourself? Work on the things you always wanted to do for yourself any. You wanted to write a book? To exercise more? To learn a new language? Paint doggies? But instead of doing it, you scompromised in order to spend time with her, right?

Now, I'm not saying you should work on yourself. That's your decision. All I'm saying is that if you are going to work on yourself--do it for yourself. And healing comes first.

I wanted to make sure you understand that I am not suggesting your WW is a good candidate for reconciliation, Catch44. Frankly, if my FWH was acting as your WW is I wouldn't have given him a chance. But, that is me. She needs to own her shit and deal with it. She is the one that really fucked the marriage. She is the one that needs to carry the burden.

Yes, as BS's we need to do introspection. We need to clean up "our side of the street" as dear Aubrie likes to say. But, if the WS wants to reconcile, they need to leave the marital issues alone until the infidelity mess is cleaned up. That mess ain't even close to be cleaned up in your situation. You have started from ground zero, again. KWIM?