SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I can't really figure out what Catches personal definition of sex on demand is, even 10 pages in, but I've seen this topic creep up before. Many BH's come to the conclusion if she was a slut for OM and did these things for him then she can certainly do those things for her husband, whenever, wherever I want.

I think this attitude is wrought out of resentment and I guarantee that there isn't a single shred of respect that BH feels for WW when he takes this view. If you have lost that amount of respect in your wife to the point you view her as your cum vessel, I think the marriage is pretty much fucked.

Depends, IMHO, what's really going on here. Yes, if your WS did things with the AP that you don't do with him/her, I think you should expect to bring them into your relationship, without question. It is important because it shows a level of connection with another person that might not be there between the BS and WS.

This is their chance to prove that connection exists, show you how they feel about you, and repair some of the damage they did. Imagine if it's non-sexual for a minute, if a man cheats with a woman and does nothing but buy her flowers and jewelry, does the wife, during R, have an expectation to get flowers/jewelry from her WS? Goddarn right she does (assuming she wants it). Same thing with sex/sexual acts with the AP, you, as the BS, have the right to experience the best of your husband/wife, and that does include sexual acts. No, I could never accept "I did it for my AP, but I won't do it for you"; that's a clear sign and really should have "because I found him more attractive than I find you" added to the end of the statement. Because that's what it's saying, using actions, not words, but the effect for most people will be even stronger.

But, it's not like you should do it in a hateful manner. That's where it crosses the line for me a bit in this thread. Let's say your wife cheats and gives the AP anal sex; a fantasy for a lot of men, and a common "no" from women. OK, she did it with him, she darn well want to do it with you too if you intend to R. But that doesn't mean you have to treat her badly, doesn't mean you should try to hurt her during it, and does mean that she's sharing something special with you, even though she shared it with him first. A "no" would be a D for me, simply no way I could get past that. But, reversing the situation, me hurting her intentionally during that act should also mean a D.

It's not (at least not for me) about "getting even" or trying to hurt the other person, it's about re-establishing your position as the "most intimate" and "best" partner for your WS. The way they show you that is to get rid of the acts that are "special" between the AP and the WS. So, yes, short version, you do have a right to expect anything done with the AP to be repeated with you, and to become a regular part of your sexuality. Obviously your WS likes whatever it is, otherwise they wouldn't have done it!

I can't really figure out what Catches personal definition of sex on demand is, even 10 pages in, but I've seen this topic creep up before.

I agree with Randy: even 10 pages in, it is hard to understand what your definition of ODS is.

Could you clarify these two questions?

1)How often did you demand sex of your wife? Once a week? Twice a week? Every day?

2)How long have you been doing this? You say pre-A, but has it been the last couple of years then? Or all of your 17 years of marriage?

You seem to have memorized your wife\s sins well (you write out every date she texted/contacted/met with an AP), so you must recall these details also.

I am curious why you are being vague about these details. If you want women's opinions on this, and you want to heal, I would suggest being honest about these important details.

Sparks5,

It was daily for 17 years.

My wife would ask if I wanted to knowing that I would probably want to on many of the days.

I'll be an outlier onthis - if your ws does something with ap, you can hope they'll do it with you. You can and should communicate about it. No I don't think you can expect or demand it. It can be a dealbreaker. But a bs isnt entitled to it.

If someone does something sexually with another person or even buys them flowers - and it isn't something they enjoy doing, isn't meaningful to them - a b.s. expecting it doesn't make it enjoyable or meaningful. Demanding my husband bring me flowers because ow1 demanded flowers doesn't make it a meaningful act.

And i feel if i want to r, it's about developing that communication and connection with my husband so that what our M is filled with meaning. Not shows of guilt or obligation

Catch,

You need to be able to ask for sex and for anything else you want in your M, as does your W; and you both need to have a free choice between 'yes' and 'no'. If you don't ask for something to change, the problem is yours, not your W's. What keeps you from asking fro what you want?

***********************************************

You realize that would put everyone in jail for rape who lied about loving their partner before sex.

I have very little respect for a man who manipulates a woman into sex by lying. Not jail, perhaps - maybe some sort of public shaming. And probably therapy for the girls who accepted the lies.

I'd be more lenient on teenagers, except for repeat offenders.

So, basically, every man in the world, using this definition, is a rapist.

I really wish you'd stop projecting your own issues onto others.

I never lied to get a leg over. My bet is that I'm not alone in this. I always thought a willing partner would be a lot more fun than someone I had to convince to participate.

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:50 AM, May 23rd (Tuesday)]

Pretty sure the whole question is a straw man the counselors gave him to either keep him busy or so that his wife wouldn't expect more at a time she shouldn't....

Dear Recent SI Dudes posting,

THANK YOU!

You articulated what I could not but wanted to. Thank you for contributing sanity again :D

Thanks SiSoon,

Big wave of anger today has thrown me off and I'm not 100%.

What keeps you from asking for what you want?

I asked the counselor how I request physical contact.

She said, "you don't". It is basically a her needs versus his needs thing. So I can't expect it. I'm not sure why I got trumped. That is definately frustrating.

When I asked my wife, she said (nicely) that if I held her hand, then I would want more eventually wouldn't I. I agreed that I probably would. I don't know if that is from an "on demand" spectrum.

As far as things go, I think yesterday was good. My wife came home tired but chose to sit and talk. She's been texting me today. Last night, told me where she expected to be today. So I see some forward progress and we have MC coming up on Monday. So I'll put some questions out there at that time.

Notthevictem,

Pretty sure the whole question is a straw man the counselors gave him to either keep him busy or so that his wife wouldn't expect more at a time she shouldn't....

No, I was told to remember there was hurt on both sides. Starting this was just to explore that thought.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 4:17 PM, May 23rd (Tuesday)]

If my WW were requesting that I not touch her, or that we have a "trial separation," then I would very strongly suspect that she was still having an affair or that it was an exit affair.

In either scenario, I'd be trying to detach my emotions to protect myself and have a good basis for decisionmaking.

Thanks Plan C,

Well, it depends. How bad is the ODS in relation to the affairs, right? Is there justification.

The other option is to "threaten" divorce or just divorce without "threatening". And for on demand physical contact.

I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I'm trying to heal, come to terms with any co-dependance, control and accept that my wife is a cheater and may never change, that my kids may have two homes, etc.

But I am trying to balance it with what I do see considering we we talking divorce 2 weeks ago so the warm lovey feelings may not be right there at this moment. If women like to feel safe and secure, I'm sure that didn't help the love bank. So what expectation should I have about how she should be in this? She isn't doing any deal breakers as far as I know, if a 2nd, 3rd and 4th affair aren't already dealbreakers.

But if your W is not willing to do the work, or if you desires are too far apart, it's probably best to split.

I keep pondering SiSoon's thought.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 4:43 PM, May 23rd (Tuesday)]

Pretty sure they are. Have you considered that maybe it's a complete and total dealbreaker, and now is time to determine if you want a NEW deal?

Have you considered that maybe it's a complete and total dealbreaker, and now is time to determine if you want a NEW deal?

Every day for 3 months. I keep pondering this.

She might not be genuine. There's no way to really know. You can believe, but you can't know. Does that make sense? You can either choose to believe her, take steps together to rebuild trust and move forward with real R, and realize that you're going to have to be vulnerable to do so, you can throw in the towel and D, or you can stay stuck in a state of distrust and self pity.

Real R takes guts.

13YearsR

[This message edited by Catch44 at 4:53 PM, May 23rd (Tuesday)]

Catch,

You started this thread wanting to hear from other women, wanting to know if ODS would cause the same issues it has for your wife. I am wondering if you have had that question answered?

This thread seems to have derailed a bit.

I do not think that any of us can judge whether his wife is remorseful or not.

I can tell you as a FWW myself what it is like to go out and cheat on your husband when you hold an intense amount of resentment and rage inside of you. I know what she feels in regards to you asking her to hold your hand or be there for her and she knows that more will be asked for and she doesn't have that more for you whether she was the one that cheated or not.

I can answer some of those questions for you. I was that woman.

tired girl,

I know what she feels...

Your perspective would be very much appreciated.

What are your thoughts? How did you feel? Is my approach appropriate? What is my wife feeling about me? Could you please tell me your story and how you were feeling?

Thank you.

[This message edited by Catch44 at 6:20 PM, May 23rd (Tuesday)]

It sounds like Tired Girl is going to give you some very valuable perspectives.

So please forgive me for going back a topic. I don't think that in your position either one of you can demand anything. I think you can have a humble, sincere conversations as equals where you say (without being triggered) "here is what I need from you to heal from your actions, and here is what I need from you in a new marriage--is this possible?" And she asks the same from you (let her go first). And if you can meet each other's needs--then start doing it. And if you can't--or if she balks or stalls or wants the MC to say what everyone should do, then stop chasing her.

How did I feel after I cheated? I felt intense regret. I found remorse a bit later after I realized that I had betrayed myself in what I had done, but that took a bit for me to get there. My husband could not see what he had done to me in our marriage, and I knew how intensely I had hurt him so I tried not to bring it up to much.

We were separated when I cheated on him. I had actually gotten to a point that I could not deal with what was going on our marriage anymore. So I left. After I cheated, it took 5 months for my husband to decide whether or not he could deal with me being home or not. I understood that, however I still had my resentment of almost 18+ years to deal with.

It wasn't until I only looked at my side of the street that I found remorse.

Is your approach appropriate? I can't tell you that. What I can say is this, you have not been a safe partner for her. And now you want more. Again. And while it is very understandable, she is still leery. Was her cheating the right way to deal with your abuse? Nope. Was your abuse of her right? Nope. So, right now you have two very wounded people trying to figure this whole shit ball out, and you are both defensive. That is exactly how my husband and I were.

We didn't start getting better until we both put down the battle weapons and started seeing each other for the wounded people that we were. And we started caring about that other wounded person sitting across from us. We stopped trying to protect ourselves and started healing ourselves and then our marriage.

As long as you view her as the enemy, this will never work. Did she royally fuck up, yes she did, and she knows it, she just doesn't know the whole extent yet. She will, give her time.

Have you royally fucked up? Yes you have, understand the wariness in her eyes when you ask for something, you put that there. Know that it will take a long time to undo that. But you can, if you fix your side of the street.

How bad do you want this? That is what it all comes down to.

My husband and I have been in R for 7 yrs, and we are solidly on our feet with the marriage now. But we have worked on ourselves for the majority of that time. And then started on the marriage.

It has taken all of that 7 for me to even begin to feel like my husband can be a safe partner for me. What you have to remember is, he was unsafe for 18 years, I was unsafe for a period of a couple of weeks.

Thanks tired girl. What you have written aligns with how the IC relates it and how I feel. It provides some direction.

If you think of anything else I would be interested.

very glad tiredgirl spoke to the resentment problem

When I asked my wife, she said (nicely) that if I held her hand, then I would want more eventually wouldn't I. I agreed that I probably would. I don't know if that is from an "on demand" spectrum.

this is not IMO abuse...this IMO is a woman who has issues saying "no" and speaking up for herself and then harboring resentment and as was posted dealing with it in a very passive-aggressive way

so IMO catch44 sucks at mindreading

great that he realizes now his wife seems a people-pleaser / co-D or whatever similar label that speaks to the obvious problem of boundaries

I do not like the counselor saying he can't ask. I would empower his spouse she has every right to say "no" because dang it she needs to put on her big girl panties and find her voice

I agree the problem is the safe/sacred space is obliterated and now two bomb-victims are looking at each other and wondering what to do next

that whole holding hands thing is a great touch love language to fill his tank and then she can be honest and lay her boundary of it's just holding hands...

I would think if Catch44 is willing to address any resentment he has and then WW is willing to do likewise than let's hope the perspective is that both begin behaving to show a willingness to work the R path

recovery ain't linear, and it ain't easy, but as has been said before the transformation to become actually mature, conscious and healthy is worthwhile and hopefully you two can share this goal

peace as you process

Thanks Merida,

I will be using this on Monday Worded differently

I do not like the counselor saying he can't ask. I would empower his spouse she has every right to say "no" because dang it she needs to put on her big girl panties and find her voice

[This message edited by Catch44 at 11:43 PM, May 23rd (Tuesday)]

Imjustagirl..............WOW!! Powerful message. I wish my ex did even half the stuff you have done to try and get his attention.