SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

thank you everyone - I wanted to let you know I did not run off and leave the thread. Yesterday was a bad day for me and I was not able to check in here.

I have responses to a few things, that I will type very soon.

Thank you again.

This really may not be an answer to your question, can I suggest you take another look at your relationship. Experiences are subjective and can be colored by not only past experiences but current state of mind and emotions. When you're hurt or upset it's easy to pull out examples to support how awful things were, on bars days I will do it as reasons why there would be nothing left or no reason for me to stay and give it a chance. When he is at a point to share, compare notes. My guess is he will initially have some points of view you didn't see.

Finally, you are always entitled to your feelings but those feelings did not cause you to make the choice to cheat. You put yourself in the position where the opportunity presented itself, and you decided to take it. You could have said no, the fact you wanted to **should** have promoted either self reflection as to why you were tempted or had you go to you H and said "we have a problem".

Get past the blame, your H hurt you, you avoided dealing with it and got him back

This has the possibility to be a very long, involved post. If I break a rule (or several) along the way please let me know and I will correct it.

I guess I have always had self esteem issues if you look at it that way. I have always felt that others were more important than me. Their feelings, their desires, wants, needs. I feel like that was what was expected.

why? like TG said, all of this is learned. You were not born like this. You were taught to be this way. Who taught you that others are more important, more deserving than you? Who taught you that this was to be expected? How did they teach you this? This is how codependency starts - with the message that

I don’t really remember “how” this was taught. It seems like it just always was. I remember being a little girl and my mom going and helping my grandmother’s sisters (my great aunts). Sometimes it was big things, sometimes little things and I knew she didn’t want to go, she didn’t want deal with them. One of them in particular was very hard to handle, and was impossible to please. I remember asking my mom why she continued to do these things when she didn’t want to, and the response was always something to the effect of “you do things you don’t want to do to help the people you love.”

I watched her and my grandmother, my grandmother specifically, bend over backwards, always working so hard and do so much to help everyone else and I admired them for it. It didn’t matter what it was, or who it was for really, if someone needed something they did it. It didn’t seem to matter how hard it made their lives, or how much they didn’t *want* to do it, it was always done.

My grandmother was the “peacekeeper”. She was the one that could smooth over any situation, end any argument. She never got angry, she never raised her voice (except once that I can remember in my entire life) she was the sweetest, most perfect woman I ever knew. And I watched her, and I knew that she would say sorry for things that were not her fault. I knew that she would accept blame that wasn’t hers to take, and that she would “eat crow” so to speak to keep every happy.

Again, I don’t actually remember this conversation, but I “know” it happened. Did it happen in my head or did I ask her – it was 30+ years ago – I have no idea, but I know she did it because she loved us, and she wanted us to be happy. And that she put us first because that was the right thing to do. You sacrifice, make concessions, do whatever it takes, to make people happy. Making others happy will in turn make you happy. It’s a circle.

But she was the glue that held everyone together too. She was the one everyone went to, and the one that always made the wrong things right again. It didn’t seem to matter if it was a skinned knee, or …I can’t even think of anything right now, but you get the idea. I guess that’s what I always saw as selfless, loving, caring, kind. That’s what I wanted to be, and so I tried to be like her. I want to make everyone happy. I want to be the fixer.

I know that I should have gone to my husband and talked to him about my feelings instead of being afraid of him and his reaction to what I said

Why did you not feel like you could talk to him? Why did you not feel like you could stand up to him ? Why was avoiding conflict a preferable outcome to asking him to meet your needs?

My guess is that there is some level of co-dependency learned in childhood. You needs weren't being met and you did not know how to ask for them. You are afraid of your H's anger. I'd bet there are lessons you learned earlier in your life that taught you that keeping the peace was more important than standing up for yourself.

Another angle. Did you always feel that in order to be M to your H that you had to do the lions share of the work to keep him loving you ?

Again, maybe I can answer your question with more of an explanation. I think my inability to talk to my husband has a lot to do with my Dad.

My dad was kind of…. different. He was not book smart, but it was mechanically damn near a genius. He had a very quick, very hot temper. He would blow up about little things, any little thing. Both my grandmother (she lived with us) and my mother would do whatever it took it seemed like to keep him from getting upset. If that was admitting you did something you didn’t do, so be it. If it was apologizing when you don’t think you did anything wrong, then you do it. They are only words, and they keep him from getting mad. They keep him happy. And if he is happy, then everyone else will be happy.

I endured some sexual abuse from an uncle (my Dad’s youngest brother) for many years. I never said anything to anyone because I didn’t want him to get into trouble. When it all came out when I was around 11 or so there was a lot of activity for a few days, doctors’ appointments, social workers, upset family members - then nothing. Everything went back to normal. No one talked about it, no one mentioned it. I don’t think I was ever *told* not to talk about it, but it felt taboo – some dark secret that you don’t want the neighbors, and your church members to know about, so you keep your mouth shut.

As years went on it happened again, sporadically with the same uncle. I would always say something and there would be a fight sometimes, sometimes I don’t remember anything happening, then it would go back to normal. He would say he was sorry, and I was supposed to accept it. Because it was Godly to forgive (I remember someone saying that).

Anyway, I guess you could say that it was all swept up and never talked about again. Just like my Dad’s temper. He would get mad quick, blow up, and 10 minutes later her was over it and back to his happy jolly self, and you were expected to be also. If you were still upset or mad or hurt then you were being unreasonable, you were holding a grudge, you should just get over it. It’s over and done with now, just move on.

When I was 13 my Dad was diagnosed with a rare type of spinal cord and brain cancer. He had surgery, he lost a lot of mobility, had to stop working. As time went on he needed help for more and more things. Anything that required finer motor skills, buttons, laces – he wouldn’t do. I say this because I think it had some bearing on his mental state. Depression, change in attitude and action because of brain injury? I don’t know. Anyway he had a lot of bad days. A lot of days where he was angry and would yell and everyone walked on eggshells to make sure they didn’t upset Dad. Dad is sick so you have to be quiet so he can rest. Dad’s hurting today, so if he gets snappy just overlook it. Stuff like that.

As the years went on I was a normal teenager, I want to go out with my friends. I would ask to go somewhere; my mom would tell me to ask dad. For dad to say yes, I had to do a “favor” for him. The larger the thing I wanted to do, the larger the “favor” had to be. I quickly learned that the way around this was to lie. Say you are doing X, then go do Y, and no one knows, and you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do.

Sometime I would do that, sometimes I couldn’t. This went on off and on until he died when I was 18. Actually, there is a lot more to it than that. Things happened before that when I was younger, but it’s not important. I never said anything to anyone because I didn’t think it would matter. No one really cared before. All it did was upset people and made people angry and cry and then it went away. So why put everyone through that again? What was the point? I was strong enough to take it, I could do what he wanted, and it made him happier. His mood was better, and everyone in the house was happier. I knew it wasn’t right, but everyone else was benefiting.

Why couldn’t I talk to my husband? Why couldn’t I tell him what I thought was wrong? I don’t know, I thought it would make him mad. I didn’t want him to get upset at me. I didn’t want him to think I was being needy or whiney. I didn’t want him to think I didn’t love him. If I could make him happy then everyone else would be happy to. I just had to try harder, I had to do more. I didn’t want him to leave. I was afraid if I started saying I need this, you don’t do that – that he would go find someone better. Someone that wasn’t selfish, someone that could do everything right.

Another angle. Did you always feel that in order to be M to your H that you had to do the lions share of the work to keep him loving you ?

Yes, maybe. I think so anyway – I mean he probably (maybe) would not agree to that. But I feel like I tried to do a lot. I always failed miserably and it ended up making him mad at me and we would fight and I would say I’m sorry and that I would do better and we would try again and it would happen all over again. I would try to go a bunch of stuff, I would forget or do it wrong, or whatever….and the cycle starts again.

So yeah, I very much feel like a failure. Like I tried to be the person my Grandmother was and fell woefully short. I couldn’t do enough, I wasn’t strong enough or fast enough, or good enough. And instead of asking for help (which she never did) and showing everyone I couldn’t do it I just kept trying and falling farther and farther down. And by this time I felt like my husband was sick of me apologizing and saying I would do better when I never did, and that the fights and the arguments were my fault and I didn’t want to make him madder by saying *he* was going something wrong, so I started talking to other people.

I have no clue if that answered your questions or not. And I feel like that may have been WAY too much information

As to my comments about myself - I do deserve everything anyone wants to throw at me. I hurt my family, I hurt innocent people. A good person does not do that.

This is also wayward thinking. Do you see the cycle/negative feedback loop?

1. I have no inherent value, so I seek validation in others.

2. I have found validation from a source I believe I deserve.

3. I have hurt someone important to me by seeking that validation.

4. I am not a good person for seeking validation.

5. See number 1.

It is a cycle that reinforces your perception of yourself.

Until you begin to love yourself, you will continue in this cycle.

How does one begin to love themselves? It starts with identifying their principles. Find things you believe in and live by them rigidly.

Example of a principle: I will be 100% honest (with courtesy and love) in all situations.

Then the first time you tell the truth with love in a situation that is not easy to do so, you will begin to build that love for yourself.

Make no mistake, it is not easy. You will still battle with it at times. However, you have an opportunity to shape your life around what matters. To waste said opportunity is to continue as you have been.

And I promise you...beginning to love yourself is easier than trying not to hate yourself. It is the difference between playing to win versus playing not to lose.

Take care.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 10:44 AM, June 30th (Friday)]

Allmyfault1,

I'm so, so sorry you endured those things in your childhood. I don't have similar experiences, and I won't pretend to relate, but no child should have to go through that.

There are many here much wiser and eloquent than I am - you are getting great advice and I am so glad you have the courage (and love for yourself, whether you realize it or not!) to keep working through it.

The one piece of advice I have is to read the book Codependent No More by Melanie Beattie. It was an eye-opener for me, who also embraced the roles peacemaker and people-pleaser to the detriment of my own well-being. It was VERY hard work to realize and overcome that my "selflessness" for others was actually turning into something selfish... I got my fulfillment by "giving and doing" for others (kind of like the "circle" you describe), and when I wasn't needed to give and do for my husband, I shut down, avoided conflict and made really stupid choices.

I really do see you coming out of this on the other side stronger, happier and content. It's amazing how much peace we can find when we learn to know and accept ourselves!

Rooting for you!

oh honey..... my heart breaks for you. I am so sorry you had to endure so much as a child. The history you shared explains quite a bit about your behavior as an adult. The women in your life were martyrs - their behavior was a model for you as a child. That's how you were taught - by watching them.

Like I tried to be the person my Grandmother was and fell woefully short

this just makes me all kinds of sad because your grandmother was codependent as well. I think it's important to, at some point, humanize your parents and grandmother - this is critical to healing.

In addition to "Codependent no More", I also recommend "The Fatherless Daughter Project" and "Women Who Love Too Much". Since you say IC isn't an option at the moment, these books are a good starting point.

The first time I asked my H why, he had the same story as you. He felt neglected, unloved, felt I was no longer attracted to him and we weren't having sex. The only problems with that is that he conveniently forgot the reasons we weren't having sex.

1. We were working different shifts and had different days off.

2. We had a newborn

3. The times that we saw each other we weren't intimate was because I was having issues which made sex painful and uncomfortable.

In other words, rewriting our marital history to justify his affair. The state of your marriage did not cause your affair. Many people feel neglected by their spouse but do not cheat. You are using that as an excuse and that is wayward thinking. You need to figure out why you chose to cheat without blaming your H or yiur marriage. You still are not owning up to your choices.

Hi there, im new to this thread. Ive been reading this tonight. I am a BS, and I am also a professional therapist. I just wanted to say the questions the people have been asking you are amazing... and the work you are doing has brought tears to my eyes. The questions being asked of you are the same questions I ask people in my office all the time.

I wasn’t strong enough or fast enough, or good enough.

I often ask people to go back and let that feeling... the one you feel above. Find a moment back in your young life that was very hurtful to you. Find it and allow yourself to experience the same emotion as you did when you were a child. When that emotion overtakes you, it will be painful, but do not run from it. Stay in that moment and be that girl again. She will have the answers you seek and why you did the things you did. During this emotional time start asking your father (figuratively) all the questions that start popping into your head. Dont allow yourself to think or filter, let your emotions dictate your questions to your father.

You are an encouragement to me... you truly are an amazing person and you cant see it, because you have never been able to see it.

You are an inspiration to me and you give me hope. Do not give up. Plz never give up.

[This message edited by Ichthus at 7:33 PM, July 1st (Saturday)]

I didn't read all the comments but for me sometimes I feel my H is acting wayward when he makes everything about himself. He once accused my gut wrenching anger on 'proving a point to him'. Also crying uncontrollably to 'trying to control and manipulate him', as opposed to true depression and pain. He would also say I was 'outing in a show' etc He would turn things around on me and make it about him. He would criticize me or the M instead of taking full responsibilty for his actions. Big one!

We are no longer there thankfully or our M would have no chance at all.

Obviously everything was about him during the A. Duh.

Is this not just another excuse? The 1 MC counseling session we went to my husband brought up the abuse I went through as a child, and in my first marriage. And of course the MC grabbed onto that like a pit-bull and wanted to wave it around as the answer to why this happened.

To me that is just another excuse. Lots of people have shitty childhoods. Lots of people have it a lot worse than I did and they don't fuck around on their spouse - so When we talk about passing blame or not "owning" it I see saying its because Uncle and Daddy touched me when I was a kid, and 1stH beat the shit out of me and passed me around for sexual favors to his buddies as another way to pass the buck and make an excuse.

Just wanted to chime in that you should re-read your entire thread. When you started you wanted to just leave the why with what your husband wasn't doing. Easy solution. As you moved on you became willing to tackle the harder and more hurtful why of FOO. You were willing to see your husband as the excuse but not your past. Why to that? Now your are beginning to see from your FOO why you couldn't communicate with your husband. Since you already admitted you weren't capable of communicating to your husband, can you see that the fault doesn't lie with him for your affair? He isn't a mind reader. Yeah as a decent person he should have been better, but who chose to stay and not confront that? You. Even with the marriage issues (which btw is too soon to address till you figure your shit out) you have some of the fault. Your lack of communication and your lack of coping skills.

Your willingness to put up with anything for validation through acts of service. (I have a ton of experience FOO issues with that one ) Dig into those. You talk about filling a need by catering to entitled people. BTW-not saying they were all entitled. You were taught a coping skill or value system in a unhealthy way. Though well intentioned, it sets you up for failure. There has to be healthy boundaries for helping people. Otherwise, you are enabling them to self destruct. Clipping their wings so to speak to fill a need for yourself. Love is selfless. But, it isn't love when you enable the entitled to fill your own emotional bucket by helping some that should be helping themselves more. What needs were you filling for your AP? Other than attention for you, did it fill a need to do for them? A value system already established by your grandmother and mother? KISA? Things like that.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 11:14 AM, July 3rd (Monday)]

I have been gone for a few days and have just no come back and started reading the newest responses here.

Find it and allow yourself to experience the same emotion as you did when you were a child. When that emotion overtakes you, it will be painful, but do not run from it. Stay in that moment and be that girl again. She will have the answers you seek and why you did the things you did. During this emotional time start asking your father (figuratively) all the questions that start popping into your head. Dont allow yourself to think or filter, let your emotions dictate your questions to your father.

I find this much harder than it sounds. But I am trying.

I am a BS (approx. 90 days out from D-Day). I have only ventured onto this forum a few times. My pain is just a little too fresh to spend much time reading here.

I just want to say that posts and responses like these make me wish my WH was on this site. I have copied and pasted a number of these responses for him to read. I know he will learn a lot from the great feedback and questions/answers given on this thread.

Allmyfault1 - I just wanted to wish you well on your journey towards R (if that is what you ultimately desire).

Dazed: Thank you. I want R more than words can express. I truly hope that someone (even if it's not me) can come out ahead from the information that is shared here. Some days I feel like my chance has passed, but maybe someone else can get something out of the questions I ask, and the wonderful responses I get back.