SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Smokenfire,

Thank you.

YES you need to deal with the monster under your bed, the thing that makes you HAVE to have what you HAVE to have at any cost, that little voice that tells you you are never enough. Embrace it, sit with it, feel it.

This is important. I will do this. I'm very confused about it. I don't know what it is or why. I don't think I'm lying about it. I just honestly don't know what it is. And I don't feel like I'm acting (maybe that's part of the problem), although I get why everyone sees it that way.

I dunno...I feel like if I wanted to "act" or seek validation, I wouldn't even be on this site, frankly.

I broke down the other morning at the hotel in Lisbon. The night before I tried to "sit with it, feel it, experience it". I laid in bed, closed my eyes and thought about a scenario where I was watching my wife be sexual with another man. To try to feel what I would feel and empathize. Then I stopped myself because that was self-centered. I needed to try to feel what she would feel through her eyes, which was actually what "gadiver" above suggested. So I did that. I imagined a scenario where I was with one of the OPs and imagined being my BW sitting there watching. I also pictured a vivid scenario someday in the future where my daughter was being betrayed and imagined how she would feel and how I would feel as her father. I fell asleep.

But when I awoke in the morning, the images were still there. And I asked myself a simple question: "how would my wife feel while watching that?" Worthless. Abandoned. Humiliated. Disillusioned. Hateful. And then I melted down. I am trying every day to do more of that.

At my wife's suggestion, when we get home I am going to write our a detailed narrative / reconstructed timeline of my affairs. Not necessarily a detailed play by play of WHAT happened (though the broad brush strokes will be there), but more of what I was thinking as I did these things and how I felt. And how I think my wife would feel if she was observing. This may help experience and feel it and be moved by it. My wife may or may not ever read it.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 6:26 AM, August 28th (Monday)]

Gadiver,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'm sorry for your situation, but I'm glad to hear that you seem to be on a good road to reconciliation. And I am encouraged by you.

I challenge you to try an exercise. Write a simple narrative of what it would be like to be your BS sitting in a chair forced to watch you and your AP as you were seeing it through her eyes. Don’t describe what you are seeing describe what she is feeling as she watches you. You do not have to share your thoughts with your BS or with anyone else. I found this to be a starting point for me to begin to “sit” in the pain. I would also recommend an article “What is the Cost of Forgiveness” by Rick Reynolds..

I did the exercise you suggested (although I did the exercise laying in bed, instead of writing). It definitely had an impact. As I said in my prior comment I'm going to write out a full account of my affairs - not necessarily the intricate detail of what happened, but how I felt, what I was thinking, and how my wife would feel if she were watching and listening.

I also read the Reynolds article.

I can not pretend to understand the breadth and depth of the pain I've caused my wife, but I am trying to and I will (understand...not pretend). I have no expectation that she will "get over it" quickly, or ever. I hope someday she can forgive me, but I don't expect that either, or do I think I deserve it. I can just be the best man I can and let her choose from there.

Thank you.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 6:34 AM, August 28th (Monday)]

Hopeful76,

Thank you for thoughtful comments and the time you took to write them. I really appreciate that.

I am by no means ignoring or glossing over that you wrote. But there is a lot to absorb and much of it is hard to hear. I will reply when I've digested it.

Thank you.

mcw922

Thank you for thoughtful comments and the time you took to write them. I really appreciate that.

You are welcome.

You are receiving a great deal of experienced and sound advice on this forum from people that never wanted or expected to find themselves here. It is good to hear that you are listening and taking it to heart.

Please encourage your BS to reach out to me if she needs someone to talk to. I know how incredibly gut wrenching the first few months are. You get up everyday and just try to keep your sanity.

The help and support I found here was absolutely invaluable. I hope it proves to be the same for both of you as well.

[This message edited by Hopeful76 at 10:16 AM, August 28th (Monday)]

I laid in bed, closed my eyes and thought about a scenario where I was watching my wife be sexual with another man. To try to feel what I would feel and empathize. Then I stopped myself because that was self-centered.

This perspective is hugely telling. Why did feeling your feelings feel self-centered?

This is indicative of everything I've been trying to say to you.

And while it's great for the marriage to try to feel what your wife is feeling, if you are disconnected from your ability to actually feel your own feelings then you will be disconnected from being able to truly feel what your wife is feeling - because you have no frame of reference. Without the frame of reference you will only be able to intellectualize the feeling - you won't be actually able to feel the feeling.

And this is where I am suggesting that you use shame and guilt as a buffer. The moment you get to shame and guilt then you have learned to disconnect emotionally - no matter how much you can observe and name the feeling of another. As bad as shame and guilt feels, it buffers us from a deeper (usually from childhood) message that speaks to the essence of how we see ourselves. You can see an example of this in many of the newly minted BSs that immediately begin looking for ways to blame themselves for their partners affairs. We don't have to feel the excruciating pain if we can somehow believe we deserved it. They are using the shame and guilt to try to buffer the deeper feelings underneath.

There's a very big difference between "Worthless. Abandoned. Humiliated. Disillusioned. Hateful." - from the perspective that you caused that feeling...and actually feeling YOU are worthless, abandoned, humiliated, disillusioned, and hateful.

Over the many years I have seen many WSs suddenly have a completely different understanding once they become a BS. They get it in a way they just didn't get it before - even though, like you, they may have really been trying. You likely have experiences in your life that have caused you to truly have these feelings...to know them intimately, not just intellectually. THIS is where you will be able to relate to your wife. You cannot relate to your wife solely as an observer of her feelings. You have to be able to connect within you to a time that you had those feelings - but shame and guilt throw you out of it every time.

You might try that exercise again...but stay in the first person perspective. The trap door is feeling like you deserved it.

truthsetmefree,

Wow, that is one of the most insightful descriptions of what both the BS and "I believe" the WS do to protect themselves.

I observed my FWH doing this for months. We wore the feelings as a coat but had not digested and "tasted" them.The look on his face and the guttural sound that rose up from his soul when he began to digest and actually feel the pain are such that I will never forget.

Reading the book Loveable by Kelly Flanagan gave him insight and tools to reach behind shame and guilt to see and feel. A very good IC (his words, not mine) has made an enormous difference and helped him find clarity.

I have not read your other posts but I hope that when I do I will find that your and your spouse are either well on your way or have found your way to reconciliation and a new marriage.

There are a few things I noticed here. I know some of them are addressed, but I figured I would piggy-back on some other posters.

I f_cked up several times over the past week and contacted the "main" OP, as well as one other OP with whom I actually developed a meaningful friendship (all over text and phone). This second OP was actually helping me as a friend to cope with this situation this past week. But I realize that this can't happen any more if reconciliation is to be successful. As of this morning, I killed all these contacts dead. No contact with anyone any more.

Did the same. That person was my second AP. I really couldn't stand her as a person. Had no emotional like for, just used her to be on "my team" for the first two months after D-day.

What you typed jumped out at me. Did you feel guilt for the first one? Is it possible you just self medicated over and over again with additional people as the guilt and shame piled on. As opposed to admitting the first EA or stopping, you jumped into another to validate you weren't that bad-when you really knew you were. Used the drug high to forget just how fucked up you really were.

She said that there is something I have not been getting out of this marriage, possibly from the beginning, but definitely for a long time. She said for one reason or another, she and I have not addressed these things together; perhaps because we just don't have the language to talk about it, or that we have just ignored it.

I doubt it had anything to do with the marriage. No one could fill that void in you. You were like this before you got married. Needing the validation and attention. Needing to feel desired and wanted. Just needy. That was probably you before marriage. I am sure she filled it up to the best of her ability and then what she did do you grew immune to and took it for granted. It is solely on you to speak up and address your problems and talk about your needs. Not your wife. She isn't a mind reader. If she felt distant too in the marriage, well no wonder. You have been checked out for over 5 years. You are responsible for setting your needs, wants, and values. Obviously they are unhealthy and most likely unrealistic. It isn't her job to make you happy. She is there to experience life beside you. Support you. Not entertain you through life. Do you think you see people as objects? What you can get from them? That is you and a you problem. Not the problem of the people that can't fill your objectives.

I continued to profess that I understand how awful, reckless and stupid I've been. I begged and pleaded for her to give reconciliation a chance...not what I should be doing right now, I know.

But, you knew this from the very start with the first emotional affair. Yet, you continued over and over and over again. Why? Because it was what you wanted to do and for the time being you were getting away with it. Till she found out. Ask yourself why it is okay with you to do what ever you want, step on whoever you want, then ask for forgiveness after you got whatever you wanted. Ask why you are that selfish. It isn't just about how reckless, awful, and stupid you were. Those are regretful feelings. Those are about you and you losing. It needs to be about how cruel and intentionally hurtful you were to fill your "goldfish hunger".

I'm a "showman", I am always the life of the party, I ask for compliments and validation a lot, etc, etc (this is her speaking).

She is right and it is unhealthy. It destroys everything around you. Why do you need that at her expense? Why are you willing to make her feel worthless and like shit to get that.

And that if she is able to help fill whatever voids there are, she will.

Worst idea ever. No way. You need to fill that void in a healthy way for yourself and stop relying on others. You are a goldfish man.

Over the past 10 days, despite this awful revelation and the devastation she is feeling, she remains calm and kind toward me, she is talking to me daily, she does not recoil in disgust when I try to hug her or touch her,

You knew that all along. That is why you chose her. That is why you chose to take her for granted and to take advantage of her. Been there and done that. If you are anything like me, you knew there was no risk because you banked on her being such a good nurturing loving person and thought her love was unconditional. Her love is. Just not her friendship. You will learn the difference. She will end it, if she wants. She may still love you. But she will not tolerate further disrespect. Friendship revoked. Keep NC.

The fact that I consider myself a man of integrity and character, and yet I did this horrible stuff...that is a disconnect of the highest order and it's just plain unacceptable.

Did you really think of yourself as that? Or did you really think otherwise since the first one and drowned your guilt with the additional ones? Is it possible you spent all the others trying to erase who you really were from the start? Self defeating.

,

I wished her well,I thanked her for her support these past few weeks, and I wished her well and hung up.

Why did you wish the OP well? This woman helped you to hurt your family? Why wish her anything? Is it because you wanted her to hold you in high regards and think fondly of you. Couldn't stand being that bad guy with that reputation. Been there done that and that selfish attitude nearly destroyed everything. Still about you and needing that reputation and validation filled. I destroyed that shit once I woke up about how self indulgent that was. The APs deserve nothing. Your wife deserves that. You don't deserve that and your reputation isn't worth saving at this point. It is built on lies and pain. This is something you will need to address and apologize to your wife about. You don't thank a thief for stealing. Your wife is traumatized by you and these woman. My wife called it "emotional rape".

You don't get it yet. You may think you do, but you don't. You are like a dog with a bone. Keep working on you and your whys. Keep being transparent. Face who you were. Admit it. Own it. Don't expect pats on the back from your wife. Don't expect her to feel sorry for your mess. That is all part of getting it. It takes time. Right now, you are white knuckling it. Doing what you should have been doing, but I bet you still feel the need or want to have that fix. The fix of someone else filling you up.

3) but that's not enough. I need to stop being selfish. And have real humility. Most of what I've been doing lately in my actual behavior and action has been for the APPEARANCE of not being selfish. But what is needed is to ACTUALLY not be selfish. Which is clearly a microcosm of the whole situation.

Exactly! Getting it. Is knowing and feeling that. Not just knowing you need to be there. You got some introspection on the 12th. Keep going. Knowing and seeing the selfishness is a big step. It takes time to undo years of your core character.

Also: I've been told by her and by some of you that what and how I write here is just to "protect my image". I don't feel like I've been doing that. I feel like I've been being sincere. I'm a fairly effective writer, so I think that sometimes comes off as "too good" or "fake". I dunno. I can't help that. All I can do is to say that I am earnestly here to try to understand what's wrong with me, what the hell allowed me to be okay with making the choices I made and doing the things I did, and how I can make sure I don't do them again. And most importantly, how I MUST be with my wife (how I can be safe for her and help her) so that reconciliation has a shot.

I was accused of the same thing. Because I was a cake eater and got my shit together when I really woke up. It happens. Especially with cake eaters that see people as objects and get their epiphany. Who cares? I mean really? If what you are saying is true and is followed up by actions. The only one that knows is your wife. I see so much of myself and mindset in you. I get it. Of course you are saying what works to keep your wife there for the moment. Why wouldn't you? At least you are saying it to her and not some other woman. The need for doing it and seeking validation from it will change over time. First you have to stop the bleeding. This shit takes patience on both parts. Not fair to the BS, but that is the reality.

Continued contact with OP's (plural) after D-Day. That lasted for a few days, but there has been NC from me to them since 7/19 (maybe 7/20...can't remember). My "main" OP contacted me on my work email on 7/26. I replied only to say I can't be in contact with her, and I shared that email thread proactively with my BW immediately. OP actually emailed me again at work yesterday; I haven't replied and I won't, and I forwarded it to my wife so she is aware. I was in contact with another OP via phone for a few days -- at that stage I considered her "just a friend" and her insight was good "support for me". Now I see that was selfish and stupid and wanton disregard for my wife. Any contact with any of these OP's was selfish extensions of my EA and continued acts of betrayal, plain and simple. I see that now. In any case, all contact has ceased, and I am not looking for any more. Frankly, the thought of it nauseates me now. I am actually consciously trying to foment hatred for these people; to regard them as threats to my marriage and my family and to my wife's mental health.

Contact after the send you nicely on your way phone call? No, you don't want hatred. Indifference. You wife will want you to hate them. She will understand that indifference is better later down the line after she heals more. Do you really feel it? How hurtful that was? Or do you need to be told that it is hurtful? That should have been a no-brainer.

You are not at remorse. When I hit remorse, I just looked at her one day and was so fucking disgusted with the monster (yes we are monsters when we are cheaters and still haven't gotten it) I had become that I couldn't even stomach being with myself let alone ever expect her to be with me. I saw how cruel I was willing to be to get what I wanted and was what I was willing to do to her to get it. What I had done. What I was willing to still do before changing. I admitted it all and was so disgusted that I.I. had done this to her. Not some pod asshole. I did this. How much I did made me vomit. How much I robbed her of. How much I took for granted and took advantage of. The role I placed her in. I wanted her to leave. I wanted her to have better. She wanted to stay and I earned it with a lot of work and time. I earned that right to keep her in my life. I didn't expect it or beg. I worked my ass off to be a better person. That is more like remorse. No man. You are still at regret. You feel shame and regret. It takes time to get to remorse. You are getting there.

That love isn't enough, but I believe it's a starting point to rebuild.

No, it isn't a good starting point. Respect is. Treating her like you did before you became friends and starting all over from a big pit in the ground. You don't get to start where you left off. It has to be from the beginning and with a negative number on your chart. Right now you aren't even someone she would have chosen to be a friend with. Get that man?

I only got to page 4. I will post more about page 5 later. There is some stuff on there about expecting to see your wife to see the changes. Don't do that or go there. Do the changes for you. Hope that it helps her and the marriage. Don't do it for her approval or to get something in return. Everything counts but it takes time to see the benefits. As far as changing. I was skeptical at first. Sure, I can change my actions. Deep down I will still want to be selfish. Deep down I will still be selfish. Funny thing, continued change in actions changes mindset. Changes you. Your actions do define you.

Hopeful76,

Please encourage your BS to reach out to me if she needs someone to talk to. I know how incredibly gut wrenching the first few months are.

I relayed his to my BW -- thank you for offering to help her.

The help and support I found here was absolutely invaluable. I hope it proves to be the same for both of you as well.

I agree! It has already helped me see many things I was blind to; I'm sure that will continue. And I know my BW has gotten a tremendous amount of support and valuable far.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 1:19 AM, August 29th (Tuesday)]

Hopeful76,

I've read your comments again and again. Thanks once again ffor taking he time to share your thoughts.

It is OK to let you have it right between the eyes no matter how SORRY you are. She is and should be in the driver seat. If you truly love her as you say, get in the back seat and ride. It may be a 1 year ride, 3 years or longer - OR - she may stop the car and throw you out. It is no longer up to you.

She is absolutely in the driver's seat. I understand and accept that. I am trying so hard to be humble and we have engaged in quite a few conversations where she lashes out. I take it right on the chin. And I understand that this is going to be a long, tough ride.

I'm not trying to win a WS award. I not trying to seek validation or "look good" here. Thst would defeat the purpose of being here on SI. I am just sharing the daily progress/regress. And I know I don't "get it" yet, but I am trying hard. Some days I feel like I'm there, and other days I feel lost and confused and frustrated. But I'm trying.

Now the glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. If you learn to lay down any and all needs, requests or hope of ever feeling better - If you stand and take from her the arrows she is pulling from her heart (the ones you put there) that she needs to fling at you - If you learn to listen to her heart not just her words, then there may be the very slim chance that you may find you way to becoming a decent human being. Trust me, you are still very far away. And maybe, just maybe, if she sees a glimpse of that person in you she may stay one more day and -then another.

I am trying. I am making mistakes or sure, and, I hope, with each one I am learning. I am taking each arrow she flings with humility.

Take this to heart. Never say just I am sorry. Say I am sorry for [blank]. NEVER tell her you are sorry she thinks or feels a certain way. Not your business what she thinks. Ask her to forgive you for each and every action, i.e., I hope that one day I will have become a man that you can forgive for doing [blank] to you. Make "blank" as specific as possible. Tell her how you imagine she feels when she thinks of you doing [blank] and encourage her to correct you if you get it wrong and "you will."

I believe I do do the first few things in this paragraph. I never say "I'm sorry you feel that way" or anything like that. I want very much to ask for forgiveness, but I worry that I would be "pushing" her to make a choice that she is not ready for. Foregivemess is a choice she may make in time. Wouldn't it be selfish to ask? I need to do more of reflecting my belief of how she feels and encouraging her to correct me as you say.

You can get there, but it will cost you more than you may have ever had to give. But remember by giving up, you could gain more that you think possible.

Thank you. These simple words of encouragement are invaluable. I am ok with whatever the cost. It's more of an investment really.

[This message edited by mcw922 at 2:19 AM, August 29th (Tuesday)]

I'm really glad to see other WH's coming in here and smacking you upside the head. The BS perspective has been helpful to you, but I fear you've already learned how to say the right things to us, just like you do with your wife.

I think you need some WH's to give you some real perspective on your bullshit, and I'm happy to see that. I'm hoping it's an emotional language that will get through your pervasive selfishness. To hear from other men who did what you did and will call you out for all of the hand waving you are still doing is going to hopefully be another piece of the puzzle to help you even be ready to START this journey.

Edited to add: I'm not trying to just be a bitch to you. As I said when I first posted in this thread, this story really tugs at my heart strings.

[This message edited by Bishybish at 5:15 AM, August 29th (Tuesday)]

compartmentalization

I do this a lot. My wife understood it because she had a horrific childhood. A good description of it working in the psych was explained in a video series called Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage. I suggest you both watch that. I am not a Christian man, but I still found the video series useful in understanding compassion and empathy and how the human brains work for most males and females. We did the class together at her church.

If things get hard or go south. Don't feel sorry for yourself. Buckle down harder. Don't give into despair or think this is it and the end of the road. Remember you are doing this for you too. To become a better person. Not to just save the marriage. You don't really want to live like this for the rest of your life. Bouncing from one fix to the next for validation. If this is a childhood FOO issue. Look into setting up boundaries with the parents or siblings. Nip the issues in the bud.

Take a long look at your wife and who she is. Don't always read here and wait to be told what to do. Show that you know her. Take some initiative to do some healing on your own. BS hate to have to tell you what to do in order to act like a decent human being. My wife always told me she wasn't my Jimeny Cricket.

Part of understanding is taking stock of what you can't get back for her. I suggest you make a list. I can tell you those things but that isn't going to help you really in changing. Just sit with yourself and make a list of what she lost. What you gave away. What will always be gone even if you are capable of rebuilding a new marriage. Things that you may not see that matters until you put yourself in her shoes. How would you feel if she cheated on you type of stuff.

She said I've been being kind and affectionate toward her, and spending quality time with her and the family, but that it feels like "an act". it seems like I'm just doing the things and "behaving" like I think I'm supposed to, and that it feels like by doing that i'm not really acknowledging I'm a bad man without integrity (and by extension, that I still believe I'm a good man who was simply behaving badly for awhile).

My wife did that too. My wife wanted to see a certain amount of emotional self flagellation. She doesn't just want to see the external changes in being who you should have been all along. She wants to see you looking at yourself as the monster because that is how she sees you and wants you to face yourself. You weren't a good man making bad mistakes. You were a bad man making cruel choices. Some people think differently. My wife didn't and I did. Then after a while I realized as I began to change. She was right. I was a cruel asshole. A bad man. Doesn't define who I can become in the future. People get stuck in recovery focusing and denying who they were. It sucks. Once you really accept and face it, R becomes so much easier. There is nothing left to protect or lose by refusing to look and accept who you really were. Everything to gain. Everything.

While I felt that she was wrong, I took it on the chin. I did tell her that I spent a lot of time with her and the kids this weekend because I wanted to. Because I am trying to BE the husband and the father I want to be, and should have been all along. It's not an act! But of course I can't make her see/feel that. I can just keep plugging away -- being there when it's right; backing off when it's right. Apologizing when I get it wrong.

Look at it through her eyes. You spent years wanting to act and live like you were a twenty year old. It will take time for her to see and accept that you want to buckle down a be a family man. A lot of repetition to show her that you learned a hard lesson that you want what you have. Unfair for her. She has to process and heal. You got to play and be an asshole, and still keep your family. That is a fucking bitter pill for the faithful partner to swallow.

You are confused by a lot. So is she. This is going to take a lot of time. I hated that. But it works. Back to one thing that my wife said, which I am struggling to understand...

She said I need to "sit with the pain and feel it...experience it".

She said I need to "sit with the fact that I am a selfish, immature man, without integrity. Sit with the fact that I'm a risk to the family". (I'm paraphrasing a bit, because I can't recall her EXACT words).

Until I do this, she says, she will have a hard time accepting anything I am saying or doing as sincere / authentic.

I want to do this. I don't know how. What action to take. She said its not "an action". I just don't get it. I feel horrible and ashamed for what I've done to her. I was with her while she was crying and suffering visibly the other night, and I felt so bad. Feel so bad. I devastated this woman I love. I accept that I am selfish, immature, and without integrity.

I just don't know what she means when she is asking for this?

Any insight or advice or recommendations?

She is pushing it too. This isn't fair to her, but this is the reality and she is going to have to accept that. You aren't going to be able to do this right away. It may take a year. You have to get out of the selfish mindset for some time. You do that by living life differently. By IC. By focusing on yourself and your whys. When the time comes that you can stop be selfish by auto-response (remember it takes time to undo a life-time of bad character) don't turn from the wall. Plow ahead. Stop medicating yourself and really deal with the root of your problems and character. Right now you are still in self preservation mode. A year of selfless acts will help change your character. It will not always happen and you will relapse and you will make bad choices. Just try again. It takes time to mature.

I was most definitely listening. I was looking directly into her eyes, hearing every word, and having a conversation with her about it. It was part of a longer, emotional and difficult conversation. She was very emotional and so was I, and so I just don't remember the precise words verbatim. But I most definitely remember the full intent and spirit of what she was asking for...and was just inquiring about how to do it, because I don't think i understand.

I had the same problem. A life time of learned responding that was unhealthy since my childhood. Our MC had us do this exercise. Repeat what she said with "Let me see if I heard you right..." I also learned from my wife that learned from Dr. Phil. If you are listening and spending time when listening to form a response, then you aren't listening. You don't listen with the objective to defend yourself.

Facing yourself and sitting with yourself is admitting your weaknesses. Telling her. She is never going to trust you if you can't even trust yourself. You will understand that if you keep moving forward. That step in healing yourself is hard to explain. You will know it when it happens. She will know it too. She knows everything already. Trust me. She is waiting for you to get there. It will be a pivotal moment for reconciliation for you both. It isn't something you can rush. It will happen when you begin to change and mature.

mcw922

Foregivemess is a choice she may make in time. Wouldn't it be selfish to ask?

Yes absolutely, forgiveness is her choice and hers alone. But the selfish action is not to ask. When you ask for forgiveness in conjunction with earning her trust and forgiveness every day for the rest of your life you are acknowledging daily that you know you were wrong and have something that you need to ask forgiveness for. It is you saying I wronged you. By not asking for forgiveness it may leave the unspoken impression that you do not think you have done anything that you need to beg forgiveness for. That in itself is arrogant.

All of that being said there are many wrong ways to do this and only a few right ones. Just like apologies that need to be specific so does asking for forgiveness. It took my FWH quite a while to get this. When he was still (unknowlingly) protecting himself from the pain of knowing what and who he was he either did not ask or made a blanket request. I was unmoved to say the least. As he began to take down the walls within himself between his conscious mind and the emotions, fears, self indulgence and self hatred that had driven his behaviors the way he asked changed. He began to start with specifically how he had wronged me in full detail and then ask and pray that I one day forgive him. No more one size fits all apologies or requests for forgiveness. Keep in mind that your actions will speak volumes and are in themselves requests for forgiveness.

In short you have to become a different man - not just act like a different man. As that happens (if it does) believe me, she will know. Your character must change. Remember, character is who you are when no one is looking.

My wife had to take forgiveness in stages. She is detail oriented so she needed to forgive each separate thing. I had to apologize for and make amends for each individual act. Figure out who you wife is. Is she detail-oriented or does she lump this into one big thing.

Truthsetmefree,

Thanks for your insight. I think i can sort of see what you're saying.

You might try that exercise again...but stay in the first person perspective. The trap door is feeling like you deserved it.

I will do this. I have an episode from when I was in college, before I ever met my wife, which I think will apply. I'll try to relive it and feel how I feel.

Thank you.

Mcw922 - I see a lot of myself in your journey, and there's a lot of sound advice in the pages of your thread. Reading it, I feel as if it could have been written for me. Be thankful for the advice you've received. I'd recommend rereading from page 1, keeping an eye out for signs of growth in yourself and for pieces of wisdom you might not have been receptive to at the time you received them.

I know I don't "get it" yet, but I am trying hard. Some days I feel like I'm there, and other days I feel lost and confused and frustrated. But I'm trying.

One thing I've noticed over the last 8 weeks (I'm 2 months from DDay, today) is that there is far more to be gained from the lost/confused/frustrated days. When people tell you to "sit with it", the basic message is to no longer run from your discomforting feelings. Allow them. Especially on the hard days, spend some time turning your thoughts inward and seek to know the feelings of loss, confusion, and frustration better. What caused them? Why did those things cause them? How do they manifest? How do they change you? How do you understand them differently now, as opposed to before?

Know yourself. The only way you will be able to have any confidence you can be a safe person is by understanding yourself better than you ever have before. Push on the things that elicit a reaction from you. Dig into them. Discomfort, defensiveness, and emotionality are signs that there is something you need to recognize and dissect.

The issues you have didn't start with your infidelity, nor do they end there. While seeking your "why" is critical, I think it can sometimes distract fresh WS's like us from the foundational work we need to do. Don't limit yourself to just examining your behavior as it relates to the A - that will be insufficient. Your entire sense of self is a tapestry that is made up of lies you told yourself, intermingled with truth, and it now has to be completely rewoven with authentic thread. Take it apart piece by piece. Examine each one carefully. Assume nothing. No stone should be left unturned, because you never know what might be hiding beneath it.

You have 2 missions - seek to know yourself, and do everything you can to help BW weather the chaotic storm her life has become. The first will help with the second, but neither is enough on its own.