SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A few weeks ago, while discussing infidelity (not hers, in particular), my fww told me that she would forgive me. Initially, I didn't know what to think and sort of dismissed the comment. I started a post about it, but that didn't go very far (see link below if you want to read it). Since then, I've asked her a couple of times what it is, exactly, that she thinks she'd forgive me for. She hasn't answered.

It's had me thinking, of course. Wondering. Would she forgive me for...

Yeah. That started something of a trip down memory lane. I wouldn't say that I was reliving those moments, but close. It's got me in quite a funk.

I've been having dreams about my wife leaving me. No reasons. Just an announcement. I don't usually remember my dreams. I've had those dreams the last two nights in a row.

Last night, at a friend's rather small and casual Christmas party, my wife and I started talking to a man we'd never met, a friend of the hosts. He seemed far more interested in her than me. He seemed quite fascinated by my wife's tale about the company for which she works, it's expansion since she joined, what she's learned and experienced. After a while, I excused myself and moved to the next room. I could still see the two of them talking. A few moments later, he'd moved into position to block my view of her. I wondered if it was deliberate.

I didn't feel at all jealous. Just curious. Wondering how long she'd talk to him. Just the two of them.

Sometimes I feel like 'I love you, but I'm not in love with you.' Sometimes, I see her as a friend. Sometimes, I wonder if she's cheating.

Aside from my son, one of the things that motivated me to give my wife a second chance is because I absolutely hated that way our marriage ended. I kept thinking that it couldn't end like this. Not like this.

We went on a date night last weekend. A quick dinner and then we saw the new Star Wars movie. After that, we went home, paid the baby-sitter, put the kid back to sleep, and after a few moments of TV, I decided it was time for bed. And that was that. No post date-night sex or even cuddling.

Sometimes, I wonder if I'm giving her enough reasons to leave me.

Sometimes, I wonder if I made the right decision.

Sometimes, while I believe we have reconciled and are rebuilding our marriage, I wonder if it's enough, for either of us.

It's been over 30 months since D-day and I'm still dealing with this shit, still healing, still questioning, still wondering.

I wonder if she'd forgive me for a trip, like this one, down such a shitty memory lane.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/text.forums.asp?tid614602&ap1#message8033805

[This message edited by Unhinged at 5:27 PM, December 20th, 2017 (Wednesday)]

I hear you.

Our timelines are near the same as I’m creeping up on 30 months myself. Most of the time I don’t go those feelings, but sometimes I do.

Sometimes it’s like an out of body experience in a bad movie where I’m watching my life from this disembodied point of view. And I watch my wife and I start thinking these very calculated and disengaged thoughts. I question who she is, our life, why I stayed, everything. We’ve had experiences like yours re: your date night.

So...as I said, I hear you.

Interestingly, we’ve also had those “what if I cheated?” conversations. My wife’s answer was that she would not forgive me. Now, I haven’t forgiven her either so that’s okay. Her point, I guess, was that just because she did something horrible doesn’t mean I get to as well. She didn't say she’d leave though. But she thinks I’m the stronger of the two of us, and she’s not sure she’d be able to handle it like I have. Yay for me.

Question: Do you really wonder if she’s cheating or are you just throwing balls up in the air?

Wow! This is what keeps me a stuck in my phase. What if I have regrets a few years down the line about why I decided to stay. It’s ok. I’m going to keep getting ready just in case.

The WS forgiving or not forgiving a BS for doing the same damn thing they did is a no win situation. If they say they would forgive, they're just assholes projecting what they want you to do. If they won't forgive, then they realize how horrible an A is, yet they did it themselves. I don't know which is worse, my WW says she would forgive. Ugh.

I wonder about the stuff you wonder about too. Some of the "issues" she used as "I wanna cheat" rationalization fodder are 100 times worse than they were pre A. Some of these issues were false before and now they are the cold hard truth.

I guess I'm just saying I hear you guys too...

Unhinged, I hear both the pain and the healing in those musings, brother. I'm coming up on the 1st antiversary myself, wondering many different things. Today in my business owner's group, we shared some of the things we were thankful for from 2017. Many shared their thankfulness for spouses, family, etc. It was all I could do to look a couple of my fellow entrepreneurs in the eye and say a direct "thank you" for the support they offered early in my 2017.

Those thoughts can take over and put you in a big funk. I'll pray for you that you can leave them unresolved, that they will not consume your thoughts daily.

I know the whole "did I do the right thing?" question that just eats at you at times. The way I often answer that is like this: what would be different right now if I had mad the opposite choice? Would any of that be better?

I think about my kids who have been affected but don't actually know anything that happened. If I had made the opposite choices, we would be figuring out Christmas at two places. If I had done the opposite, two weeks ago no one would have been checking on me while I was down with the flu for 10 days. If I had made the opposite choices, there would be so much that was different and more difficult right now.

Did I make the right choice? When I look at what would be different if the opposite happened, I'd have to say that yes, I did make the right choice.

What would your opposite look like right now, brother? Would it look better? Worse? Just different? Perhaps weighing it like that will help a little.

Praying for you, Unhinged.

UH...I’ve read your story since you began posting. This most recent posting sounds like I could have written it. In fact, we also saw Star Wars and had the same night you experienced. I’m 24 months since major TT discoveries and 36 from DDay. I look in the rear view mirror everyday, still wondering to myself if my WW really understands what she did to us. If I made the right decision for me or was it done for her?? To stay. She says Happily Ever After is with me. That’s all she prays for. I’m the only man she has ever loved...yet it’s so hard to really believe that after reading that she told another man she loved him too, for many months. I have to force myself to respond to her “I Love You’s”. Like you, I wonder (or possibly hope) like you that she may grow tired and just leave me.

Gentlemen, thank you. I know what I'm feeling and thinking and whatnot is fairly common, but it's nice to have a few friends drop by and pat me on the shoulder.

Walloped, up until that comment, I really didn't think about it much. We were good(ish). I think I might have fallen down that rabbit hole and didn't recognize it. I have to say, though, I'd much rather my wife had looked me in the eye and told me that infidelity is a deal-breaker and she'd boot me to the curb in a heart-beat.

...she thinks I’m the stronger of the two of us, and she’s not sure she’d be able to handle it like I have. Yay for me.

Now that's funny. I have to be honest, brother, I never did read your earliest posts. I face-planted right straight into the R forum without ever starting a thread in JFO. So, I really can't comment on how well you handled things in the beginning, but I understand.

Personally, I think you're wife might want to reexamine her perspective a bit. I've always believed that a WS has a much more difficult journey in R. I've had to put myself back together, recover and heal, which hasn't been (still isn't) easy. However, I wouldn't trade places with my wife. In fact, I'm not so sure I could have done 'the work.'

Do I really think she's cheating? No. At least, my logical(ish) brain tells me that she won't go down that road again. Still, that thought inevitably pops into my head now and again and it's just downright fucking annoying. It makes me wonder when, if ever, those thoughts will simply go away and I can rest assured.

stayed, I try to avoid hypothetical discussions or arguments with people. They are, as you said, no win situations. So, I think it's much the same with a WS saying they'd forgive. It's hypothetical.

What would your opposite look like right now, brother? Would it look better? Worse? Just different? Perhaps weighing it like that will help a little.

Oh Captain, my Captain, I have weighed those thoughts a million times over. Most of the time, I know I've made the right choice. Occasionally, however, I still wonder. I think I can weigh my options as well as most people. But you know, this whole infidelity business requires a whole new caliber of 'scales.' Just sayin'.

She says Happily Ever After is with me. That’s all she prays for. I’m the only man she has ever loved...

18MonthsAfter, that sounds familiar. Maybe it's true. She sure as shit has a funny way of showing it, though.

I don't 'respond' to ILYs anymore. Those words just don't have the same impact that they once had. Show me that love. That's what makes a real difference.

I don't hope my wife leaves me, btw. I don't know where those dreams are coming from. For a long while, though, I was waiting for, almost expecting, the other shoe to drop. It's hard to shake that feeling.

devastated43, you might very well have regrets down the road. Not ever WS is capable of doing what it takes to R. What I've always believed, however, is that I'd regret not giving my fww a chance. I can always chose to leave in the future. It's a judgment call that's personal and very hard to make.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 2:39 PM, December 21st (Thursday)]

My two cents is you are doing very well. You have been honest in your concerns and given her room to address them. Self doubt is natural. I went through it for 5 years. In the end I didn’t make it, but every circumstance different and you seem to be on the right path.

You are right. There is no statute of limitations. I am sure your wife knows this too and it probably helps if she did ever have ideas to not just stray, but put effort into the marriage.

You know, I hate those “I would” comments. We all KNOW this shit show was something we could never have imagined. Saying what we would do, without having ever experienced it, is rather presumptuous, in my opinion.

I feel decent most days. I wait for the other shoe to drop at times. I feel anger and resentment still creep in. We are still in therapy. I am working on changing sarcasm from being my first language.

This year, Christmas is not doing me any favors. I’m not sure why it feels more triggery but when I saw your post, even before reading it, I knew what you’d say. Perhaps it’s the time of year. Perhaps our timeline. Perhaps we are both still a bit angry? Just wanted you to know, friend, I’m feeling a lot of this now, too. Don’t discount the effect the season can have on us. It all seems...amplified? right now.

Here’s to cruising into our 3 rd year. May it bring us more peace and fewer doubts.

I tried date night during R and I had zero interest in post date sex. I'm now single and I took a date to see Star Wars and the post date sex was fantastic. The best part was after the great sex my date got dressed and left!!

Thanks for posting this Unhinged. It makes me feel I am in good company. For me it is not that I believed he really loved her even though he told her that many times. It is more that it means he doesn't really love me if he could throw what we had away so very easily.

I too stayed for our daughter but in my case the kids know about the A so keeping things "normal" is just not possible anymore. But initially I did not want to make things worse than they already were. But now we are all healing and the same questions remain. I think it WS's just don't realize the awful position they put us and themselves in with such selfish actions.

I think the only way is for us is to talk about this with them. I cannot make the relationship better by myself; I can only heal myself. But I can set standards for myself and allow him to meet them or not. The other day I told Mr. ISurvived that one day I may decide this is too much and I'm out. It may be tomorrow or it may be years down the line or it may be never. That's part of the price he pays for betraying me and taking away my security and causing so much damage that may be irreparable. He has the opportunity to show me why I shouldn't leave every single day.

A"trip" is right!...I have used that phrase with my H and his "fall from grace"...he looked up a woman from HS....and the rest is history...a history I never expected....

I think this time of year just adds to the bitter sweet of another year in the books...

This is by far the most complicated thing I have ever asked myself to deal with! There are times that I actually tell myself

"You know you're really here for the family and it REALLY is a dealbreaker"...

Then there our times where I look at him and remember how I have always felt about him....

you know unhinged, at the end of the day I am happy I remember where memory lane is....

Peace to all

Do I really think she's cheating? No. At least, my logical(ish) brain tells me that she won't go down that road again. Still, that thought inevitably pops into my head now and again and it's just downright fucking annoying. It makes me wonder when, if ever, those thoughts will simply go away and I can rest assured.

Oh yeah, that whole internal discussion keeps getting rehashed again and again in my brain...drives me nuts sometimes too, especially when I’m at work and can’t do anything to put my anxieties to rest.

You have to move from victim status to survivor.

As a victim you have no control. You never heal. You stay married as long as she says. She has control. You are no more than a backseat driver.

Now a survivor has control of themselves and their future. You are the one dictating terms.

If she cheats again or you just want out, you have the desire and ability to do so.

You need to empower yourself.

The benefit of being a betrayed spouse—and there is exactly one benefit—is that once the marital covenant is broken you are free to go at any time. You can leave tomorrow. Or 10 years from now. Or never. And be equally in the moral right.

Which means you have no time frame to decide how you feel. You can go day by day. You have...freedom.

[This message edited by PlanC at 9:05 AM, December 22nd (Friday)]

My H has said that I deserve to cheat on him. Several months ago I actually made him give me permission for a hall pass. Not that I used it or that honestly he was bound to his permission or that any of that meant anything, really. But his opinion was (not sure if is, since it hasn't been brought up recently) that it was only fair that I hurt him that way, that I get to be with somebody else.

It just doesn't work that way or have the same impact. A gorgeous man I used to flirt with left his wife preA and I was sad because flirting with him wouldn't feel safe anymore because he'd be single and possibly take signs from it. I felt so comfortable in my wedded status that it never even occurred to me to step out. Even unhappily married, that thought never crossed my mind. It really blew me away that he went there. That he played so dirty.

And saddened me that post A I wanted to go there too. It wasn't fair.

Anyway, reality is a fucking bitch.

I agree with Rambler.

I think some questions are still rolling around in your brain about whether or not you want to be there. Those I can’t help you with. But if you know for sure that you want to reconcile and remain married for the rest of your life (something I always knew), then I have some tips.

1) talk to your wife about your thoughts and feelings- all of them. The things you say above is giving all these strangers on the internet better insight and intimacy than your wife. My husband and I talk about everything we think and feel. It creates an empathy and a intimacy that’s hard to break.

2) change your perspective. Yes your wife had an affair and yes she hurt you in ways she can never fully understand. But what is life like now. Not that particular night but in general. Do you guys share things together like laughter and good memories? Take yourself out of a moment in time and look at the entire picture. My entire picture is about as good as I could imagine. Maybe we’d be rich if I could imagine it

Truthfully when I start feeling the way you do I truly step back and ask myself if I could ever have this good of a life without my husband. My answer is resounding no. So I move in.

I think part of your issue is that this terrible crap storm hasn’t gone away and guess what? Whether you are married or divorced, it won’t go away. Maybe it’s time to put it on display in your living room and say “this was that black period in our marriage. I’ve placed it between the pictures of the birth of our child and our fiftieth wedding pictures. Not because it’s a fond memory but because it’s a memory that we survived together. “

It makes me feel I am in good company

.

Well, damn, not sure I should post now.... lol

Unhinged man, what you forgot in your trip down memory lane was one of the factors in your decision.

'Even if R doesn't work, I still get to see my kid everyday for a while longer.'

And I did/do the same shit. The seeing my kids every day was one of the things that tilted the scales in the direction of R. Not that they couldn't survive/thrive in a split family, but that I am selfish and dont want to miss anything. Even if that means putting up with some more bullshit. What's more bullshit compared to the shit sandwich we already eat/ate?

Just saying brother, if you're going back down that same rabbit hole because you're getting weird vibes from ms unhinged or you inner doorway is starting to come loose, you can't skip over that part.

If you're gonna watch the new star wars and later remember the scene between the three jedi in snokes throne room, you cant forget how they all ended up there in the first place. She went because she thought that the chance at redemption was worth the risk. That doesn't mean it was or wasn't, it just shows you what kinda person she is. Whether it was or wasn't is yet to be determined.

As a victim you have no control. You never heal. You stay married as long as she says. She has control. You are no more than a backseat driver.

Now a survivor has control of themselves and their future. You are the one dictating terms.

If she cheats again or you just want out, you have the desire and ability to do so.

You need to empower yourself.

This!!!

I don't know what your wife was thinking when she made that comment. I know when I was very depressed, I very well may have said the same thing. In that case, it was desperation speaking, I needed his forgiveness because I thought if he forgave me, I would be able to forgive me. It was faulty logic. But she also could've said it in an annoyed, get over it, way. Either way, it's a self centered thing to say.

At the end of the day, I think we all have to decide to stay because we want to be in the relationship. When I felt like I was settling for something, I was miserable. My husband and I have done a lot of talking about the dangers of what it's. So, what if you hadn't married her and had married someone else? Would you be happy? The reality is, you have no idea. Maybe or maybe you'd be worse off. What if you divorced her? Maybe you'd be happy or maybe you end up back here again with someone else. My husband are 100% not settling for each other and because of that we're both in much better places.

At the end of the day, you have to decide based on what you know, do you choose to stay. And if you do, live the best life you can. I felt trapped with my husband for so long and felt like I had no choices. I took back power over my life. I stay now because I love the man. But if I need to, I can leave.

As far as the date, I think there's a tendency to lump everything into the infidelity bucket. My husband and are doing so so good. This guy who never said I love you before now does. And that He's lucky to have me. What??!! But we took the family skiing a couple weeks ago. Our room had 2 queen beds. We ended up sleeping in separate beds! Neither of us is sure why. We weren't mad or anything. We got drinks one night and I just felt really disconnected and told him. I really think it had to do with his increased traveling. In any case, what I'm getting at is, we were in a little funk that had ZERO to do with infidelity. And I talk to friends who aren't dealing with infidelity but are dealing with lows in their marriages.

My point is, marriages have normal lows that would be there with or without infidelity. Date nights sometimes end with hot sex and sometimes don't, that's just the way of it.

I've read this thread a few times through and I'm wondering why some of you (rambler, W3, VR) are sensing (?) a victim mode mentality. Yes, my original post was a bit... whiney... triggery.

That comment, that she would forgive, really took the wind out of my sails. If my wife hasn't learned that infidelity is a deal breaker and not so easily forgiven, it makes me wonder if this has been false R all along, and that I have given her a fair chance, but it's time for me to move on.

soulhurt, that didn't help, brother, but it did put one hell of a smile on my face! Thing is, though, I've BTDT (didn't get married until mid-30s) and while it was great fun, eventually I wanted more. And I still do.

Dem, someone here (can't remember who, tg maybe) used to write that sarcasm is truth sideways. I used to be very sarcastic. Not so much anymore. It feels so much better to be... very direct.

It could be the holidays being triggery. We're staying home this year, no family, spending time with friends who are doing the same. We're just chillin.

NTV, I remember you're old signature line. I'd rather see my son every day of his life (until he's 18, anyway )

[This message edited by Unhinged at 9:55 AM, December 22nd, 2017 (Friday)]