SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Ff4152 - You nailed it. I need to remind myself of the facts you state in your response. I am quickly developing a list of individuals to follow who seem to offer genuine, non-judgmental advice. Likewise, I’m getting a clear picture of those who will not be helpful in this journey.

I’m desperate to figure out how/why I did what I did and how I can be there to help my BW pick up the pieces. Despite comments to the contrary, I really am committed to helping her navigate the mess I created. Along the way, I’m sure I’ll discover some ugly truths about myself, but it’s all part of the process. Thank you for being respectful.

I see a lot of emotional responses on these threads, but not a lot of substance. I want books. Links. Not opinions. And when my marriage hangs in the balance you better believe I’ll accept science and experts over emotion-fueled judgment and opinion!

Books, links, science, and experts develop from real life experiences. This forum is chock full of nothing but real life experiences.

You can’t have it both ways. You claim that experience and knowledge doesn’t necessarily come with time, however then around to say that this is a long journey.

Knowledge comes from experience. I can tell you with the utmost confidence that I know much more about infidelity and I know much more about myself today than I ever did the day I joined this forum.

I agree in the fact that many of the members here speak from their heart. They also speak of their own experiences and POV. Many members also speak more objectively, but can do so because they are further out and have worked through some of the pain.

I think the most common form of advice I have given new members is to keep an open mind. If you think about, it’s the ability to lie to yourself, to trick your brain, or look at things from a warped perspective that allowed you to make the choice you did to get here in the first place. Is it then possible that the things you feel so certain about may not necessarily be healthy or correct? Is it possible that how you feel right now or think might just be a continuance of poor coping mechanisms?

People can only provide advice based on their experiences and the information provided. Some members will be for divorce, others reconciliation. Not every member here was given the choice.

It’s the classic saying of “take what you need and leave the rest”.

I’ve been here a long time. I’m certainly not an expert, but I have seen patterns and similarities throughout the years. I’ve seen posts, similar to this one.

I won’t psychoanalize you. I will just ask you, why do you think you are so upset about the posts that you feel are venomous towards the WS? Why have you felt “bristled”? Who do you feel those posts are doing damage to?

You have thousands of people here that have walked in your shoes at your fingertips. Many are pretty wise. Why discount so much experience?

Unforgiven,

It seems you take what you want from this site, if it makes you not feel judged. Again, I caution coming from a scriptural perspective, take all this advice as a whole, just as the Bible is taken as a whole. In the beginning you were not initially honest with folks here, the EA turned to PA, so folks will question your veracity, and they will attack you. Now that the truth is fully out, and you have answered question from your BW and MIL. Trust me, there will be more to come. So, let go of the defensiveness, and take the advice given.

I'm not judging. I'm a wayward who had 2 PA's, so I'm the least of those who should judge. OK, establishing a non-judgemental baseline, why are you so resistant, and why are your feelings hurt (bristled?) I got handed a few 2x4's and I do deserve them, and it taught me humility.

In the initial stages of "R" you get the hopefulness, you need to prepare for the anger phase in the coming months. Right now your BS is in shock, and she is extending the gift of R, despite the lies, as a gesture of martial love.

You need to get ready for when she accepts the betrayal, and gets angry, ( really angry ) for being faithful to you, and this is how you repaid her faithfulness. If you get defensive with her when she feels righteous rage, it will not go well.

Trust me on this, and if you will not listen to this community now, then when you come back here and post about how your defensiveness blew up in your face when your BW got mad, do not expect to be coddled. You have not yet experienced the seething anger as she looks back on the entire marriage and asks, were there others? What else have you done? I recommend you learning humility now, and read other posts here on dealing with anger. Prepare yourself.

Hi WalkingonEggshelz: Responses like yours are helpful and appreciated. I admire the folks here who can give advice without being condescending or coming across as a Parent. Dunno if you had time to sift through all the responses here. It’s OK if you haven’t. I don’t blame you. Lol.

My original post wasn’t intended as a lecture or condemnation of WS’. It’s very difficult not to name names, but before I understood how the site functioned (stop sign is my friend as another newbie stated) I was taken aback by the verbal lashing I got from a few BS’ — complete strangers who know nothing of me or my circumstances. When I saw the words “safe place” I took them literally to mean, all are welcome here for an objective, non-judgmental discussion about why we did what we did and how we can help our BS heal. I wasn’t prepared emotionally or mentally for the full-on assault so-to-speak from the legions of angry BS!

That begs a good question. I understand why WS aren’t welcome on the JFO forum. By why aren’t WS afforded the same level of respect/Protection in a separate forum? Why isn’t there a place just for people trying to seek help w/o fear of getting blasted? Oh, I understand we reap what we sow, but it seems to be a glaring gap in the continuity of care provided here. Instead of a stop sign — why isn’t this forum limited to WS?

I don’t know if admins read through all this stuff, but it is a suggestion that would improve the overall experience. Others have stated above — there really isn’t a whole lot on the Internet for those of us who betrayed our loved ones to work through the messes we created in a safe, non-judgmental space. If anyone is aware of such a resource — please share.

From reading, I know I’m not the only one who sees the deficiency of resources for the “guilty party.” If I had the time, know-how and cash flow, it’s something I would do. That’s why I find the most help in books, especially ones that focus on both POVs without assigning blame.

Again, Unless we’re just sadistic jerks, we all carry around a tremendous burden of guilt/shame/remorse already. No need to pile on more. That accomplished nothing and prevents a WS from truly discovering the root cause of his/her actions. Just food for thought.

2times- Oh, we’re there. Trust me. Discovery began back in mid-June. I made the dreadful mistake of not getting it all out at once. I tried to minimize and cover my butt. I’m far enough along to realize that was a terrible choice. I would read case studies in books and think to myself, I wish I had the courage to do what Joe S. did and confess all. Instead, my decision to TT put us both through months of pure hell. I’ve actually learned a lot since then just through books and IC. So, while we’re new here, we’ve actually been on this journey for some time. MC, IC, marriage retreats, books...

I can honestly say I’ve meant well. The execution has failed miserably. Case in point: One day, I felt compelled to stand up in front of our church congregation (I was previously an elder) and confess. I had read a book from the Robertson’s (of Duck Dynasty game) and saw where the wife owned her infidelity by admitting it to their congregation. It worked wonders in their marriage and led to a happy ending. I was getting a lot of pressure over the summer to “own it” so I got the bright idea to confess myself. Oh brother. What a mistake. I humilaited my wife and kids. Wasn’t my intention, but the damage was done. I was already an emotional wreck because I had buried my mother four days prior. I didn’t share sordid details — just that I had broken my vows and betrayed my BW. I honestly thought there was no better way to hold myself accountable than to stand in front of my peers and admit my sin. Ugh.

Since then, it’s been one well-intentioned mistake after another. It’s taken it’s toll emotionally, mentally and physically. Definitely doesn’t come close to the hell my BW has been through, but it’s been a tough journey nonetheless.

This is why I say, I’ve dealt with enough shit irl, it doesn’t help to have it heaped on here, where it’s supposed to be a place to discover healing.

Aside from the dude who made the crude comment here about my wife getting her ass pounded, most of the responses to this thread have been helpful.

Anyway, I would gladly do a poly if it helped her now. I WAS embarrassed/ashamed to admit the PA. I’m sure you all can empathize. Now that it’s out there, I feel a load off my shoulders. The real work can begin for both of us. Wish it didn’t take so long for me to see the value in being honest. Coulda/woulda/shoulda.

[This message edited by Unforgiven1OH at 12:29 PM, December 30th (Saturday)]

From that one guy that's not helpful

I phrased the statement that way to illicit a response. Yes it was crude. But that is what is going on in a lot of BS minds. Crude thoughts not rational. But emotional because their world was destroyed. And if you haven't heard those yet. They are coming. And you want them to, to get the anger out. Because I'd she never releases the anger you will be in for a long miserable M.

FWIW

Dr. J

UIOH,

Fellow wayward.

I will touch on a couple of ideas I have to respond to your call for input on how to address defensiveness.

What is defensiveness? To me it's a kneejerk, angry response to a negative stimulus. Someone gives you a hard time.....one lashes back in return. My family looked at me years ago and told me to go fix myself you angry man. I've tried.

Some resources that have helped me in my life. First are the writings and tapes from Wayne Dyer. I will always be grateful for his advice to always send out love no matter what. When the nastiest attack comes your way the right response is to always send love back. Period.

Second, I've lately benefited lately from Stoicism. Look up Tim Ferriss' recent recreations of Seneca's writings. True ancient wisdom. For one to respond to a negative influence with grace and humility comes from have a deep internal rudder to draw from. This deep inner peace almost provides for an invisible shield from attack.

I'm with you on your quest for figuring what the hell I did to go so deep down the rabbit hole. I've done a good deal of rationalizing for sure. Someday I'd enjoy hearing some of the Fatal Attraction side of your journey. Although maybe not. Suffice to saay I can relate.

Dr. J - water under the bridge. Sorry for getting defensive.

Lucky77 - thanks for the tips on resources to deal with defensiveness. I will def check into everything. Your outlook of responding with love is a good one. T/Y.

It's no worry to me. I have hit a point of internal validation.

2 more quick observations.

1. I can totally understand reading the books that don't demonize the WS. But that is only part of reality. I would challenge you to also read books, blog, etc. Of those where everything wasn't peaches and roses. A lot and I mean a great majority do not make it. Read the stories of the WS that went back and cheated again and you might start seeing the reasons and have a little empathy for those who just say D.

2. Your post in itself was defensive. And if you can't handle some random guy that's anonymous on the internet. Then that defensiveness us going to come out with your BS. And in the BS mind, it is going to feel like you are justifying your behavior.

Best wishes in your journey.

Dr. J

why aren’t WS afforded the same level of respect/Protection in a separate forum? Why isn’t there a place just for people trying to seek help w/o fear of getting blasted? Oh, I understand we reap what we sow, but it seems to be a glaring gap in the continuity of care provided here. Instead of a stop sign — why isn’t this forum limited to WS?

I will start by saying that there is no other forum in existence that allows the WS to work through this in a protected forum such as this. The founders of this site (BS and WS couple that had reconciled) fought very hard to create a protected place for WS. That stop sign is a piece of protection that you will not find anywhere else.

If you choose to continue your journey, you will find that many of the BS that come in the Wayward forum offer pretty sound advice and have the intent to help you. Sometimes you may even seek the advice from BS vs. WS.

As far as continuity of care goes, I can tell you that we moderators take our job seriously and do our best to treat each member fairly. There are strict guidelines that BS are not to hand out 2x4’s here. If it happens, we will address it. There are times, however some get missed given the fact that we all have jobs and families and we are here in our spare time. If at anytime you feel that you are being attacked, please contact one of us and we will address it as we see appropriate.

Unfortunately, there are times (especially early in this process) that we feel attacked, because facing the truth is too painful. Again, it’s that perspective I was talking about previously. Which is why you must ask yourself “why am I bristled?” Are you really being attacked, or did someone hit a chord with you that you don’t want to address?

This isn’t about blasting someone or reaping what we sow. It’s about recognizing behavioral patterns, seeing people make similar mistakes and trying to stop the cycle. Some people respond well to directness and others need a more gentle approach. Sometimes there is a need for both.

To answer your question, yes, I’ve read through this thread. There is some great advice and observations in here. Perhaps you will be able to step back soon and open your mind to see it for what it is.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:19 PM, December 30th (Saturday)]

I agree it's important to give WS the option to hear from BS. I leave almost all of my threads open because I want to hear opinions from both sides. More often than not, my harshest comments come from WS. Everyone has different points of view and it's easy to see when someone is has a skewed view from walking bent over under the burden of their own pain. When you can see that, you can see their perspective for what it is: what they see. It does not mean you should go around looking at things bent over, but now you understand what they see from down there. Often, they don't see anything useful. Sometimes, they see something you can't see unless you bother looking. I would never want a "protected" forum where I can't even speak to half the members here.

When I was in elementary school we had a concept in our GT program called "learning to learn." You can't learn unless you can separate fact, from opinion, from emotion. I say that because it is something I struggle with here. When people present opinions based on falsehoods to me here, I have to make a conscious effort to not react to them, but see that they are working with a different set of variables than those I possess. People will constantly present their personal experiences into situations that are not personally theirs. That will create a disconnect that is the Readers' place compensate for. Taking away the people posting will not fix anything. The reader has to be the one calmly evaluating the information (or misinformation) received, because that is the nature of human interaction and is inescapable. It would be like asking a political campaign to only use non-biased materials... It just won't happen. It's always the consumer's job to do the research.

We'll help one another until we can be vulnerable. Thanks for the post to remind me to be open-minded. :]

U1OH,

Before time goes on too long, I think Evolving Soul's thoughts yesterday on an apology to the group is still an open issue. I don't get why you were so tough in your responses to her. I find her input always so thoughtful and valuable. I'd go so far as thinking an apology to her would be appropriate.

At 8:50 am yesterday you remarked that this community didn't seem like it was for you. If its not then a goodby is fine. I was heartened to see you commenting on other's posts. You have wisdom to share. To me, your bluster is bordering on bloviating though.

Brokensavage: This is a great point (sorry- don’t know how to do the quote thing) - “When people present opinions based on falsehoods to me here, I have to make a conscious effort to not react to them, but see that they are working with a different set of variables than those I possess.”

You also mentioned not being able to talk to half the members...isn’t that the premise of JFO? Why is it folks there can take things from the WS forum and gossip, but yet we’re prohibited from setting the record straight? It’s a bit of a double-standard, no? I’m glad my BW is getting thoughtful responses and support, but there are a few clueless folks who are so out in left-field with our situation that you just wanna scream, “you don’t know us at alll...you have no idea what you’re talking about with regard to our situation...please stop projecting your situation/misery on others! Your words actually stoke more anger/contempt and don’t contribute to a healing environment.”

Lucky77 - I agree, Evolving has been very thoughtful in responses. I have no beef there. One question: does this community demand apologies from every single member who admits to lies and half-truths on these boards? I have read tons of posts on diff boards here, and I know I’m not alone in not being honest w/ myself or others at first. I feel like I’m being singled out by Evolving a bit unfairly, but when you’re at rock bottom, admittedly, everything seems unfair. Thereality is, it’s exactly what I deserve.

I have no problems saying a genuine I’m sorry to anyone upset with my comments/behavior. It’s been a long, tough summer of discovery. Our recovery journey is just beginning. Everything is raw and emotions are high. My defenses are at DEFCON1.Now that BW knows the full extent of EA/PA, the real healing can begin. I know it’s a long road, and We will each discover some things about ourselves of which we are not proud. At this point, there’s nowhere to go but up.

Btw - wisdom or bloviation? You contradict yourself a bit. Perhaps it will help to know I’m a former journalist. I process thoughts through writing/journaling. Bonus points to you though since the term bloviating originated with the speech style of former president Warren G. Harding who hailedfrom...Ohio. 😊 Thanks for reaching out.

[This message edited by Unforgiven1OH at 8:32 AM, December 31st (Sunday)]

You don't owe anyone here an apology, save it for your BW. The great thing about the WS forum is that it gives us a chance to work through it all. From defensiveness, to getting the whole truth out, to so much more. When I first showed up here, I was caught by my BH and within a day of dday, I was posting. The biggest piece of advice was don't TT, disclose it all. Well, yeah right, I was only caught in one affair, keeping the other two, thinking I'd go to my grave with that information. It's scary to admit the whole truth in fear that it's just going to make things so much worse. I told everyone here "yes I told him everything" but then something changed, I took the advice to heart, and three days later I confessed to my BH about the others. I came back here and posted about it. Thing is no one asked for an apology. Instead I got, "great, keep going" and that is what I would encourage you to do.

All that to say, No, you are not the first who TT'd, you are not the first to lie here, many before you have and there will be many after you. Why someone would seek an apology from you here, is beyond me. Just own your shit, that's what we hope for out of you or any wayward. That is what we will hopefully lead you to with all of our experience and wisdom, having been in your shoes, and understanding.

And it takes time to get there, but I think so long as you are taking steps in that direction, and trying, keeping an open mind and just start being honest with yourself and your BW.. you are already on your way. It's no secret that we are selfish, we've probably been that way forever! So it's not going to change over night, it's something we have to practice, making selflessness a new habit. My first post and I got called out for how many "I's" were in it, I got defensive.. "how am I supposed to tell my story without some freaking I's in there?" again you are not alone in that department either. Just keep working on it. Spend some time in thought and meditate on what it truly means to let go of the outcome. It will help you and your BW.

I remember very clearly like it was yesterday, the feelings that flooded me on dday, and thereafter. Sheer panic, fear, shame, and yes pain. I was exposed and felt vulnerable. And that meant I took a lot of the 2x4's here personally, even when they weren't directed towards me. It hurt and did nothing for those feelings. And I cant't even imagine what it would have been like if my BH were posting here and reading all those comments he would have gotten. I imagine it would be much like the one's your BW is getting. They mean well U1O, the really really do. It may not seem that way to you because, well, it's about you.. When BS's show up here, they are in shock, they are traumatized, and they are NOT of a clear mind. I think it's good to have the variety of comments.. they need to read all of those, the good, bad, and ugly. Ever see in the movies when someone is in shock and they get a slap to the face? Brings them out of it huh? It worked for her, when the poly was brought up, she went for it, and got the result it's meant for, more truth. And it's going to keep working for her, she's going to get strong and confident again, and she's going to make the best decisions, for her. Anyway, have you thought about staying out of her threads?

Best wishes U1O, keep going, find courage, be well.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 10:42 AM, December 31st (Sunday)]

Forever labeled - Thank you for posting.

Two things that really bother me from reading her thread: we have known each other 20 years. There’s has been absolutely NO HISTORY of violence. None. Those who know me irl also know my girlsaremyEVERYTHING. They are not at risk. They are loved dearly by both parents and both families. So, yeah, I’m gonna get a little pissed off when jaded BSs talk crap about leaving for safety, going to a DV shelter etc. It’s bullsh*t and needsto stop.

We had an argument in October, where she got really snarky and started writing down names to report to our MC. I grabbed the paper and crumpled it up. She went and grabbed another piece and started writing again. I grabbedthe paper and the tablet she was writing on; crumpled the paper with myleft and with my right went to flip the tablet on our leather couch. I never intended for it to hit her. It grazed her face. I was literally 3 feet away, and didn’t mean to clip her. As soon as it happened, the argument ended, the tone immediately changed to caring/remorseful. I apologizeda million times and asked if she was ok. She called the Sheriff. I sat on the front porch and calmly waited. I was calm and helpfulwhen they arrived. I was extremely sorry and they could tell. I’ve never been in trouble with the law or had any history of issues. I’m FBI background cleared for school, Scouts, church, etc. No charges were pressed and I was asked to leave for the night, which I did. I was very ashamed, remorseful and scared. I’m not some violent, drunken maniac. Ittruly wasan accident, and I am genuinely apologetic. Never happened prior, hasn’t happened since and WON’T. So forall theBS lurking here, feeling it necessary to label me Charles Manson. Please stop it. You don’tknowme. You don’t know our situation. We are not threats to each other and have plenty of irl support.

I do not tolerate violence of any kind. Especially toward women and children. I feel horrible for what happened. At work, we do a lot with human trafficking and violence victims. I have intervened on people’s behalf many times. Again. If you don’t know the whole story — shameon you for taking anonymous potshots at someone. What’s the saying about those who live in glass houses?

Point 2: I am extremely remorseful. I have expressedit here and irl. Any of my family members, professional colleagues, friends, IC and others knowhowdeeply ashamed and remorseful I am. So again. If you’re lurking: pleasemindyour own mess and stop filling both of our heads with your own bitternessand contempt. We are doing our best to work on things. I own the affair. I do not blame my BW. I am an emotional mess b/c of what I’ve done and I desperately want my BW back. It doesn’t get morereal than that.

[This message edited by Unforgiven1OH at 4:50 PM, December 31st (Sunday)]

Dude, the fact that you have to state "I didn't mean for that to happen" shows lack of control on your part. Anger is a vicious thing and if not taken serious, will cause so much hurt and regret. I struggled with much anger and have been a verbally and mentally abusive WH.

We WS are the same here as in taking our BS down that horrible road and putting the blame on any and everyone else. I dissed and hated SI when I first found it because it kept showing my BS the reality of gaslighting and blameshifting and just covering my worthless ass.

I have found much help and advise on this site now that I can admit what I am. Stop being defensive. You can't defend something that is indefensible.

Figure out the whys. Question the whys. Then question them again. It's gonna suck and probably even hurt. But it needs to be done so you can heal and provide healing for your BS.

Pigpen- I hear ya man. Absolutely lost control and my temper. Not a proud moment at all. Only time I’ve never been in a situation like that. It was awful. Felt horrible. Extremely remorseful.

I get defensive about it b/c ppl in JFO have my BW convinced I’m Hitler or Charles Manson. I’m a big freaking teddy bear in reality! My BW and I have been best friends for 20 years. Never had any kind of issue like this prior or sense. So, yeah, when I read peopletelling her I’m some kind of psychotic monster, I’m gonna stick up for myself! My IC knows what’s going on. Our families and church friends know. These strangers here don’t!

I’m fighting for my M here and worry these strangers who have it completely wrong are sabotaging our efforts to heal! Make sense? Also, several armchair psychologists in JFO have “diagnosed” me as a narc. My IC would disagree. He sees me bawling and begging for forgiveness every consult. So again, these people who may mean well, should not be diagnosing anyoneon here! We’ve been in MC/IC for months. Defensiveness is something I’m addressing as wework to great thehow/why.

Thanks for reaching out & happy new year!

[This message edited by Unforgiven1OH at 6:04 PM, December 31st (Sunday)]

See, that's the thing. You have nothing that can be defended. You made a very special promise and proceeded to shit all over it. What, exactly, are you defending? Your BS? You? Your affair?

Pigpen - Not sure I understand? There’s no justifying or defending an A. I’ve been pretty clear on that. But, yeah, when strangers assume this is an ongoing, recurring thing and tell my BW to. Go to shelters and the like, uhhh...we peacefully have co-existed through initial discovery and TT. They (other BS)have posted things like I’m a threat to my children. Umm...they’re with me now enjoying Christmas w/ my sideof the family. Me, my BW and them live just fine together. Is your BS on here? How would you feel reading blatant attacks likethat? It’s shameful. It’s online bullying and mob mentality!

Yes, call me out for my betrayal. But don’t a) diagnose me unless you’re an M.D. or Psy.D. and don’t slander thehell out of someone when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about. (“You’re” referring to some of the BS commenting on my BW’s post.

I have owned my betrayal. I don’t have enough bad adjectives to describe the hurt I know I’ve caused. My BW has been my Best friend and greatest love for two decades. I can’texpress guilt and shame I feel. My family knows it. My counselor knows it. My co-workers know it (I work in mental health) They see thepain, misery and remorse in my tears and in my body language.

ON TOPIC: Respect the original posters' intent and avoid threadjacking. Feel free to start new topics to discuss general subject matter in other threads, but do not refer to specific topics or threads outside of their original location.

This is a warning not to pull information from JFO to discuss here. You may discuss issues brought up on this thread only.