SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As it's coming up, I would like to discuss the feelings Behind you talking about the JFO forum. I'm not going to diagnose you. I'm not attacking you. But you've identified those as areas of insecurity in your prior posts. You'll want to look into those sometime, but right now I want to give you some thought points about your wife.

Why does it bother you that other people give your wife advice? I know you've mentioned other people's suggestions that were 'demonizing' of you, but they're opinions. Nothing you or anyone else says or does can Force her to do anything. Her choices are her own and no one else's, just like your choices are yours. Do you trust her? You're right, no one here knows the dynamics of your relationship or your home, but She certainly does. You think she is so feebleminded that she will whimsically bow to the opinion (they're just opinions, remember?) of strangers over her own judgement? Don't think of answers as right or wrong. Think only of answering honestly. Why are you afraid of what people say to her?

Now think about what you honed in on just a couple of days ago. “When people present opinions based on falsehoods to me here, I have to make a conscious effort to not react to them, but see that they are working with a different set of variables than those I possess.” YOU picked that quote to focus on. You can't force your wife to do that. She has to do it on her own. She will decide what to believe, what to do, what to think. What will you do about that? Will you empower her? Will you trust her decisions and support them? Take a moment and really think about how very little control you have over her. Pay attention to how those thoughts make you feel.

I don't need to diagnose you; you can evaluate yourself.

Hi broken - Thanks for the response. I absolutely agree with what you’re saying. I think some folks misunderstand my concern. I am grateful for any support my wife receives. Those who know us irl (family, friends, church family, etc) know the real dynamics of our situation. They know my wife and kids are SAFE and aren’t in any danger. I do find it unfair and take extreme offense to the handful of anonymous responders who latched on to an isolated incident and keep telling my wife she’s unsafe, etc. I am 43. I have never been in trouble withthe Law. I am a college-educated executive and have no history of violence or abuse. I have known my wife 20+ years. Sheila my best friend and the best thing to ever happen to me. I am a proud and loving father of our DDs. I do everything for them. So, the few individuals beating a dead horse on her thread are out of line, factually wrong and doing nothing to help us heal and work toward restoration. My wife is also educated and very intelligent. I’m sure she can easily cut through the bull. I know people mean well, but anyone who knows me irl knows I’m not a monster and that Ido not support/condone violence of any kind. I wish the moderators here would tell those individuals to knock it off, but I realize they can’t patrolevery single thread. Likewise, those who comment on her thread that I am not remorseful have not seen me crying in the arms of my 85 year-old father, or in the counselors Office, or in bed every night. They don’t know the efforts I have taken to try to rebuild trust and prove myself. They don’t know any of it, yet comment like they are members of our family. They don’t see me praying or confiding in elders. I don’t expect them to know that stuff.

I’d like to think that nobody here is malicious, but some of the comments have nothing to do with healing/restoration (yes, I choose the term restoration over reconciliation) and simply serve to feed into my spouse’s anger. She’s gotten some good advice as have I. Some of the responses, though, are clearly from I dividualswho are struggling mightily with their own pain. There’s a lot of projection. All I can do is take care of business on my end. I am sensitize. It’s heartbreaking to read such mean comments. Did I break my wife’s heart with my A? Absolutely. Do I wish it never happened and live with constant regret? Absolutely! Am I disappointed in myself and deeply ashamed and committed to doing everything I can to rebuild and restore? Yes, absolutely. Does she have every right to be angry? Yes. AmI gratefulshe has stuck around this long? Yes. Do I understand recovery and restoration is a long road that requires patience and time? Yes. Am I hopeful we can turn a new page in the NewYear? Yes. Hope is all I have. I wish she could see the sincerity and trust that I am deeply sorry for every aspect of my actions. Time will tell. Neither of us have a history of D in our families. My biggest concern right now is our girls and that they know no matter what, we as parents love them dearly and unconditionally.

[This message edited by Unforgiven1OH at 11:45 AM, January 2nd (Tuesday)]

It seems to come across in your posts that what you are most worried about is what people think about YOU. You are very worried about not being defined as bad and unloving, uncaring spouse or an abuser, but in fact, anyone who cheats are both those things (I am guilty as well).

In every one of your posts you make sure to address your standing in society, your standing in your church, your high level of education and the depth of your despair, you make it a point to note how much you cry and grieve. All of that "good standing" flew out the window and now you are defined simply as a cheater, a bad guy, bad parent (and yes risking your marriage and kids makes you a bad parent) scum of the earth. It sucks, but it's time to accept it.

Your tone comes across as someone who is still trying to hide, cover up and manipulate the situation. If you just state how good you are, maybe people will really believe you(been there, done that). It's killing you that you can't control what your wife is reading or what other posters are posting (hence you wishing the "mods" would lash into them). You yourself have addressed the boards and posters as faceless, anonymous people, so stop worrying about what they are thinking and feeling and saying about you and start worrying about your wife. I think you are scared she will wake up to the fact you may be some of those things they are saying about you.

I'm sure you will rebuff my post with some long speech about your education and morals and parenting, but lets face facts. There is no getting around what you did. Start owning it instead of trying to push it to the side. You screwed up big time. Your life as you knew it hangs in the balance, you have no control over it and it's killing you. I'm you, I've lived it, I know. Every day you wake up and wonder is this the day the shit is really going to hit the fan, while in turn you can't even imagine MORE shit coming your way, putting out one bomb while the next bomb drops.

I think I felt peace when I realized I can't control anyone but myself and I have to be ok with whatever the outcome may be. I own the things I did and the labels that come with it. I may not like them, but I own them. Time to start owning it and stop trying to control it.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 11:47 AM, January 2nd (Tuesday)]

Pnkpiggy - The thing is I completely agree that I can’t control anyone else but myself, so I don’t understand your response. And, yes, of course we should own what we’ve done and strive to be better people. We’ll have to agree to disagree on your assertion about bad parenting. My entire family and IC would wholeheartedly disagree with you. I shower my kids with love. They want for nothing. We have both been very involved parents. We support their education, extracurricular, travel a lot, foster open communication with them...so it’s very unfair of you to make such a comment. Have they been unfairly impacted by our struggles. Yes. But you have no right to judge anyone on here’s parenting abilities or question anyone’s love for their children.

Again-listing your accomplishments as a parent.

When you were sleeping with your AP were you thinking of how a divorce and broken family would impact your kids? How they would only see their mom 50% of the time if she left you? I wasn't. When you were taking time away from your family and kids to drive hours to meet your AP were you thinking of how your time could have been spent nurturing your own family instead? Nope. You were thinking about you. That is bad parenting.

I love my kids more than life itself. My kids also want for nothing. I serve on the PTA and volunteer in the class room. But by stepping out in my marriage, I was risking their WHOLE WORLD. Not cool. This is what I mean by owing it, you really don't seem to realize the full impact of your affair.

[This message edited by pinkpggy at 12:10 PM, January 2nd (Tuesday)]

I am keenly aware of what I risked with my A. I. Like everyone else here, am paying dearly. I have repeatedly acknowledged that this situation has impacted every member of our family. Hell, it’s even impacted mutual friends, church family, etc.

Let me be very clear: nobody on this site has a right to make a generalized/hurtful comment about whether someone is a good parent or not. I am asking kindly and once, please leave my children OUT of your comments. It’s wrong to even assume anything about anyone’s parenting abilities on this site. I would NEVER comment about anyone’s children or parenting abilities, let alone question their love for their children. Unless a person is a psychotic sociopath, of course he/she loves his/her children dearly and unconditionally.

And when it comes to complete strangers making unfounded judgment calls about my wife or me as parents, or our kids, you better believe I’m going to speak up and rebuke such behavior.

[This message edited by Unforgiven1OH at 1:00 PM, January 2nd (Tuesday)]

Unforgiven 1 OH,

If you have the time/energy/interest to search through the archived threads in the General forum, please search for a thread from this summer entitled, “Anything goes...really? Is this the norm?” In it I pondered WTH was the deal with the betrayed spouses on SI. Among other things, I referred to them having a “mob” mentality. Believe me, I have been where you are.

I’m not any longer.

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t in any way profess to be some model for reconciliation/restoration or whatever one decides to call it. There are distinct circumstances in my situation, namely cultural ones, that make certain aspects of how this has affected my marriage extremely difficult. However, pink pggy makes some really good points, and I have noticed the same thing she has mentioned. I’m certain other people have too.

You expend a lot of time and energy listing your accomplishments and your good qualities here as if to counter the things your own wife has stated about you. As if she’s the one who has been lying and deceiving others for months, not you.

I’m sure lots of us have a laundry list of all the good things we are. Until my affair, my husband is the only man I had ever slept with. I have never smoked a cigarette; never used any kind of drug; never gambled; seldom drink alcohol. I volunteer; I bake; my husband never went a day without a hot, freshly cooked meal unless I was severely ill.

There’s more. Until recently I was active in my church and I grew up in the church. I have worked with several of the most influential names in evangelical Christianity. Until last month, I led a renowned Christian program to free domestic and international victims of human trafficking and to help them rebuild their lives. I visit nursing homes and foster care facilities; until recently I was part of a weekly homeless ministry.

My son is my world and I have balanced taking him to various therapies and appointments (he had special needs) with running my household as a submissive Christian wife, working full time, and active involvement in ministry. I gave up my full academic scholarship to an Ivy League university, as did my husband, when we found out we were expecting our son. I donate my hair to programs designed for children with alopecia and pediatric cancer.

I loved doing all of these things, and did them with humility and a smile. I don’t broadcast them to others because I do them for the sheer joy of helping and giving, not for accolades. My coworkers used to joke with me that I am THE quintessential Proverbs 31 woman in the flesh. To some, I might have been a walking evangelical Christian cliche, but it was a lifestyle that was sincere to me and which brought me tremendous fulfillment.

And you know what? Each and every one of those “good” qualities about me was tarnished the day a man who was not my husband had my legs up in the air. The same goes for you.

It doesn’t erase those good things. But it drastically minimizes them. The good becomes overshadowed by the bad. It doesn’t erase them, but it relegates them to an afterthought at best. All of that good is irrelevant if one cannot be an ethical, honest, and decent person - and you were not that to your wife nor your daughters. Period. You shattered her world. It would have been better if you had been a jerk to her all of these years, because them maybe the cheating would have been less of a surprise. Instead, she was jolted into a cruel reality.

No amount of education, expensive vacations, and humanitarian work makes someone a good person. Those 15 year old sex workers I helped to rehabilitate...who do you think were the main people hiring them for sex? Educated, high society, married “pillars” of the community. Education and wealth are useless if one has no integrity. (I’m speaking colloquially here; I’m not saying you have no integrity nor that you hire underage girls for sex.)

You say you’re remorseful...but until a week ago you were still withholding the biggest part of the truth from her. Remorse, in my opinion, cannot exist in the presence of lies. Not just for you, for any wayward. You might have felt a sense of regret and sadness and shame for what you did. But you were still lying, and to me, that’s not indicative of remorse at all. All those months that you’ve been crying to your therapist and father and friends and everyone else...you were lying while you were crying. You might NOW be remorseful. You weren’t then.

So to your wife, it’s probably like instead of being in the process of R for months, you’ve only been in it for one week. All your other efforts all these months probably seem hollow and insincere to her because they were shrouded in lies. And I feel that way for anyone here who is lying. Until you are real enough with yourself to give your spouse the WHOLE truth, you are not remorseful.

The advice people are giving her (some might be good, some might be bad) is based primarily on what SHE has told them about YOU. So are you accusing her of lying?

I don’t even know why the two of you are reading one another’s threads anyway. It’s like she can’t even have a safe anonymous space to vent and process her pain without your intrusion. How violating and hurtful that must feel for her.

Yes, she has IC and her pastor and friends IRL. But if she’s anything like me (which she may not be), she probably knows almost no one who has this type of thing happening in their world thar she has regular, daily access to. I certainly didn’t, not did my husband. We didn’t, and don’t, know anyone IRL who we are aware has dealt with infidelity before. So IRL friends can be helpful and supportive, but she might want to communicate with those who have the lived experience of infidelity too.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful. I’m just trying to be direct. (And I’m not making any inferences - positive or negative - - about your parenting ability, BTW.)

[This message edited by ASoCalledLife at 1:42 PM, January 2nd (Tuesday)]

Oh gosh Unforgiven1OH,

It seems like you are still struggling with trying to keep your self image and your actions as separate things. I know for me I clung to the "I'm a good person who made bad choices" thing for a long time. I had an affair for seven years. Seven. I brought AP into our house, as a "friend". He slept over. He ate our food. He monopolized our tv and xbox. I went on vacations with him and his family. I didn't want a divorce, I just wanted to keep having my affair and have my BS too. And the whole time, I would have sworn up and down that I loved BS. Until about 3 years after D-day I believed that I had loved my BS during that time. I was so very defended against the idea of being seen as a bad person, even by me. Like you, I kept pointing to all the ways I was trying to make things right, all the ways in which I was a good person. Like you, I tended to spin things in any way I could so that I looked good in other people's eyes or at least slightly less horrible.

I started getting better when I stopped trying to orphan off the parts of my personality/identity that I was ashamed of. The taker. The liar. The thief. The glutton. I had to come to grips with the fact that, while I had believed I loved BS during my affair, I had not treated him that way and the most logical conclusion was that my understanding of love was skewed. I did not actually love BS when I was in my affair, not in the way that I understand love now. I don't feel any shame in admitting that. I was a broken person, doing the best that I could with the tools that I had. But I did come to the conclusion that my tools were bad, they were hurting the people that I cared about and I needed to get some new ones.

You have said a few times on this or your other thread that love is not a feeling, rather it is a choice. And I think that's right. Love certainly involves feelings but they are not what lie at its heart. Love framed as simply a choice, though, seems to me to be lacking as well. Love is cultivated through choice. It can be damaged through choice too. In the work of Brené Brown, which has been so very helpful to me, she crafted a definition of love based on her grounded theory research on the nature of shame and vulnerability.

We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.

Love is not something we give or get, it is something that we nurture and grow, a connection that can only be cultivated between two people when it exists within each of them – we can only love others as much as we love ourselves.

Shame, blame, disrespect, betrayal and the withholding of affection damages the roots from which love grows. Love can only survive these injuries if they are acknowledged, healed and rare”.

I know now that the reason I was not able to really love BS very much during the affair was that I did not love myself. My sense of self-worth was completely rooted in the external...what I perceived others to be thinking of me. And as such, people were not really people to me, rather they were sources of feelings that I used as a mirror to reassure myself that I was a good person or, if the feelings I was getting from them were negative that meant I was a bad person so I needed to invalidate them or the relationship to keep my sense of self worth intact. If that was not possible, then I distanced myself from them. What I was not willing to do was be authentic and vulnerable with them or even with me about my imperfection and the shame I felt about my "not enoughness".

I kind of have the sense that some similar stuff might be going on for you. You seem to have very little tolerance for criticism or being challenged. When the feelings you are getting are negative you devalue and denigrate the source of those feelings, or threaten to distance. It is probably also the reason that you are more comfortable getting your information from books and websites, because those non-interactive sources cannot challenge you and it is pretty easy to ignore or minimize the parts of the information that don't fit with the way you want to perceive yourself (you talk a lot about demonization) and focus on and emphasize the parts that do. I think it might be pointing at a place to dig down if you are actually interested in rewiring whatever broken parts of your brain permitted you to go through with betraying your wife and kids.

Finally, with regard to your struggle with defensiveness I would like to recommend a book that was a real eye opener for me about the way we use language defensively. Fair warning it is dense and sprawling (sounds like an oxymoron but you'll see what I mean if you tackle it) but it could be a hugely valuable resource for you to begin to understand how your words impact other people and even how the words you choose belie more than you realize about how you view the person you are communicating with and the relationship you have with them. The book is "Taking the War out of our Words" by Sharon Strand Ellison. I hope it helps you.

Proceed with conviction and valor.

Best to you from this EvolvingSoul.

[This message edited by EvolvingSoul at 2:39 PM, January 2nd (Tuesday)]

SoCalled & Evolving - Thank you both. You both make excellent points. I appreciate the book recommendation too. My reading to-do list is growing exponentially! I look forward to the day I can again read for adventure/enjoyment rather than desperation/necessity! I appreciate your patience :)

When you recognize that you can’t control other people’s responses or opinions of you, it will mark a turning point. You’re still proud, and defensive. I doubt from your standpoint you thought of yourself as a bad parent. And likely you probably weren’t a wife beater either. But guess what? Your actions have a profound effect on what people think of you. That’s something you will have to learn to accept and Be humble about, only then will people’s opinions of you start to change, and you can Start to earn back the respect of people you actually care for, your wife and kids. You think getting angry and snarky on a forum and telling people to stop is actually going to make them? Good luck with that. When they see actual change in your attitude, they will learn to respect you as you deserve to be at that time. This goes the same for people in your real life. You want to try and force your position and assertions about yourself and your views on those who you feel judged by? Good luck, with that. I’m sure your response will not be “I understand why others see me the way they do, I can only change them with my actions going forward”, it will probably be an angry rebuff because you feel slighted, or offended. Prove me wrong, or better yet, prove others wrong, or even better yet, prove your wife wrong. Show her you’re humility, don’t try to argue it.

Unforgiven1OH

This thread is for you to get support for yourself so please stop bringing information from your wife’s thread over here for discussion. Give her space to get her own support and let her make her own decisions.