SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Like most of you, I did not imagine my life have come to this point. I have been reading a lot of stories on this forum for the past month and now have the courage to share my own story and I need the support.

My wife and I started dating when we were 17 years old. High school sweethearts and thought our union was unbreakable. We dated for 12 years and in those 12 years have been through great times and some really horrific ones. In the 1st year of our relationship, my gf (wife now) was hospitalized for an unknown cause of abdominal pain that caused her to faint. She later had emergency surgery which revealed she had internal bleeding. I stuck with her through it all and supported her family. 4 years into our relationship, my sister and nephew that was 5 yo at the time past away in a horrible car accident. She stuck with me by my side. Two years ago, her father which I viewed as my own father was dying from cancer. My gf wanted to marry me for years and I finally took the jump because I wanted to ask her father for her hand in marriage when he is still with us. I am a very traditional so to speak and that was important to us. We both are very family oriented and it was such a happy moment in our lives. Her father passed away in 2015 which was devastating to my wife and the following year our beloved dog passed away at 13 yo. In 2016, I open up my own business and was planning a wedding that I thought my wife deserve. Everything was falling into place. My fiancé at the time also got accepted to a very competitive nursing program that begun on Jan of 2017. The stars had align in essence, we have been dating for 12 years, finally planning a wedding for July of 2017, I had a great business and she was accepted and pursuing her nursing career all in 2017. What a momentous year I thought, life was great. Than the problems began. Slowly in 2017, I notice my fiancé was really stress out from school. Things were rough and she was starting to be distant from me. When I try to encourage her, she would constantly tell me I wouldn’t understand because I wasn’t in her program. I continue to do what was best, work hard at work, paid for the mortgage, our cars, and living expenses because her program was too intense for her to work. The distancing continue. She would come home and go straight to the guest bedroom to study. When I inquired about spending time with her, she tells me she has too much school work. In June 2017, I decided to take her out of town for her birthday, we had a great time in Vegas, things appeared to normalize when we were away but when we got back in town, reality set in, the wedding was a month away. I literally burden the whole wedding on my shoulders, calling vendors, paying vendors, organizing and plan all of the logistics from A-Z. There were some frustration between my fiancé and I because I wanted her to help out some, but school was always the excuse and I accepted it because I wanted to support her dreams. We finally got married in July, but things didn’t seem right. She had a summer break right after our wedding, keep in mind we haven’t spend time with each other at all since school started in Jan. She decided to spend her summer break with her friends from school instead of her now husband. I ask and she made sorts of excuses to why she wanted to be out with her friends. She stayed out late multiple days and when I ask her to come home at a more decent time, she accused me of being controlling and suffocating and the crazy thing was that I was convinced that I was being too overbearing. Months went by of more of the same. Late nights and days at a time that I didn’t see her. She would come home after I fell asleep and leave for school before I woke up. I never had the courage to express how I felt because it always ended up as she is studying for school with her friends and I don’t understand because I am not in her program. Throughout the 13 years of our relationship, I had 100 percent trust in her and never would look through her phone. Finally in oct 2017, I got tired of the mistreatment and notice her being really overprotective of her phone. So when I finally had the opportunity to look through it, I did. I felt so guilty at first but my fears became reality. I saw that she was texting another guy pictures of her in lingerie and saying very sexually explicit things to him. Unfortunately I didn’t know about SI at the time and couldn’t hold in my emotions and confronted my wife. She was shocked that i went through her phone and proceeded to minimize what she did and started blaming our relationship issues to create distance between us. We got in a brief argument and I walked out. I am catholic and prior to our marriage we had to attend marriage counseling. Infidelity was brought up during our counseling and at that time I was 150% sure if she ever cheated on me, I would walk away without hesitation. But now facing infidelity in the face, I started to struggle with letting go. I still love her and was struggling to cope. After leaving, she immediately started to text me that she was sorry and she wanted us to work it out and contacted our church and we went back and forth through text for a week. And i pretty much made all the mistakes that existed. I came back after a week later, played the pick me dance trying to win her back while she was telling me how much she love me and how I am her one and only and that she realizes it was a lapse in judgement etc..... in my gut I felt like she wasn’t done with the other guy and come to find out, the AP was an instructor of the college. We pretty much rugsweep the issue until I finally got into her Instagram account and started to pay attention to her activities. The day before thanksgiving, I notice he started to keep reaching out to her. She ignored him for like a week and finally started to talk to him. I made it clear at the time that there is a NC with him. When I realize they were talking again, not sure of the intent, nothing suggested a desire to continue a relationship, as friends maybe, just the fact that they started to recommunicate, I walk out and did the 180 because now I have found SI. Up until this point , she said that they only were sexting and nothing else and that it’s only been going on for a month. Once the 180 was in place. I stop all communication with my wife and contacted an attorney to file a dissolution. He gave her until 1/1/18 for a reply. The 180 started in the beginning of dec 2017. Finally on, 1/2/17 I had a unknown call thinking it was my attorney which turn out to be my wife. I initially told her I couldn’t talk but agree to call back later. I haven’t spoken or seen her in a month. When I finally called back, she started to tell me everything that have transpired in the month of dec and after I left. The school reach out to her and said that she was part of an investigation into this instructor and that someone was concern for her safety because she had reach out to another instructor to express her concern because the AP was continuing to persue her and making her feel uncomfortable. It turns out that the AP was already under investigation for having inappropriate relationships with 4 other students in a span of a year and my wife was the last person to finally break this open. The AP was put on administrative leave while the investigation was underway. There was a mandatory NC place between my wife and the AP and she had to attend trauma and crisis counseling within the college. After her telling me all this, she express that she was willing to do anything to prove that she made a huge mistake and prove that she wanted to be with me and no one else, offering to do a poly to confirm her honesty. Now I am struggling because she came clean about everything in this past week. She told me that the affair started out before our wedding. She went to his house twice two weeks prior to our wedding and made out with him and they both stimulate each other with their hands. The relationship grew after our wedding and they finally had sex in sept. A month before I discover the sexting. She said they had sex once and will confirm on poly with confidence. We both already got an STD test at my request. She said she doesn’t know why she did what she did but is already going to see three counselor, one crisis therapist in the college, one at our church and one professional counselor that deals with infidelity. I am also going to my own IC. I am just really traumatized by all the details of the affair and timing. That she could do this to me before our wedding and that I was running around putting our wedding together and she was spending time with another man. I really need advice because she has pretty much agree to everything I ask however she seem to waffle between taking full accountability for what happen and trying to blame the AP for using his powers to manipulate her. I know that could be a factor but she is a grown women at the age of 30. She is having a hard time trying to comfort me when I feel like she is still really focus on her own pain, whatever that might be. I don’t feel like she is at the true remorseful stage. Is this too early since it’s only been two months since I found out? What should I do now? She is for sure not talking to him anymore, she has offered up everything that I requested but she still not 100% focus on my hurt and damage. She still victimized her self in a way. Do I stick around and work with her until she starts to get a better perspective or do I leave so she can have her own time to figure things out? I am also struggling with the details of the affair and my self-worth. I just need support. I can go on and on but that is the start to my problem. 13 years is so hard to let go and I don’t know what is the best thing to do now. Thanks in advance.

Strengthserenity,

I know exactly what you are going through and how you feel. Most of us here do and know you will get through this. My wife was "seduced" by a 2x convicted child molester and our family was very traditional and deeply conservative religious. She tried blaming him for "seducing" her but I would have nothing with it... she even tried to say he raped her but again... she was with him in his truck and every else and kept meeting him and he never forced her to do that. She is fully responsible for what she did and the fact that she was in a 2 year long adulterous affair with him... she's 100% to blame for her actions whether she was raped or not. How does a married woman end up alone in some man's home or in a motel or in a car... she was asking for whatever happened, especially when she repeats the behavior again and again.

the AP was an instructor of the college.

Are you POSITIVE the the college is investigating the instructor for this? I believe you need to contact the college directly and report the issues. I also believe you need to contact the instructor's spouse. Both the college and his spouse can assist with the NC. His spouse has a right to know.

I'm going to post below this something that I will give generally. It is long but has very good information. I don't espouse to the 180 for every and every situation but much of it has its place in proper use. My long post below will explain the "next" Some of it may have already been done and others may need to be redone. If you have any questions, we're here to help.

I too was married for 10 years and then found out she was a serial cheater in the worst situation. She was with a 2x convicted child molester who got her involved in a swinger's lifestyle. I initially found out about her affair but not to the child molester initially. I'm a hacker by trade and over the course of several weeks got all the information I needed. Not everyone has that ability and don't ever get the truth.

Here are some things that are the same with all cheaters... they lie. The very nature of cheating itself is a lie. You know your wife hasn't come clean and you know she's been screwing these men. Don't buy into her lies, she's been with multiple men at least. Trust your gut and not your heart. I too had to go through the same thing and this is very common for cheaters.

To put this in proper perspective, cheaters are not much different from cocaine addicts. They will lie, cheat and steal to get their fix. What is their fix? It is the concoction of adrenaline and hormones they get for their illicit taboo encounters. Its the thrill of the chase, the secret meet-ups almost like a spy movie. These men are whatever she imagines them to be. She will steal your heart, lie and cheat on you. She will do or say whatever she has to in order to continue getting her fix.

The problem for the faithful spouses is they want to believe in their spouse and think the best of them. The problem is, if they don't do it properly, they end up enabling the cheating and add to the grand lie and in the minds of the cheater become accomplices to the cheating.

Cheaters will re-write the entire relationship history to justify their egregious sinful behavior. They will convince themselves that they don't love you anymore. They'll use any relationship issues as ammunition against you to justify the cheating and place you on the defensive.

All the chemicals in their body tell them that they don't love you anymore. Having sex with these men gives her a high that she cannot possibly get with a monogamous faithful relationship with you because you are not forbidden fruit. She can only get that kind of sex high by doing wrong. She will compare the high she gets from them vs you and believe in her heart that you are not treating her the way she wants to be treated or that there's no chemistry (love) between you two because she doesn't feel.

If she's not all out a tramp, she'll feel bad for what she's done to you and even that will work against her while she's in the "affair fog." She will feel bad looking at you and seeing the hurt she is causing you and she could even become abusive, yelling at you, blaming you for things. The more you try to "fix" what's wrong with you that she states, the angrier she'll get because you're hurting her more to the point she'll blame you.

While she's living in her "affair fog" she's literally living in a different world separate from reality.

You treat adulterers pretty much the same way you treat drug addicts. They must admit their problem, they must separate from drugs, isolate them in intensive rehab (accountability) and you train the family not to be enablers.

So how would that look like for cheating instead of drugs...

ADMIT The Problem

She needs complete NC with her cheaters. This means a letter goes out from her to her cheater that YOU READ AND SEND from her phone. The letter basically consists of, I'm done lying and cheating, I'm going to be faithful to my husband and work on my marriage. Do not contact me ever again or else I'll file a restraining order. All too often cheaters will try to slip things into the NC letter about alternate ways to contact, leave doors open, not be so "harsh" or abrupt or ask to hand deliver it. Its all negotiation to get one more fix of their drug. Don't give into her negotiations and pleadings.

Next YOU need to out her to the cheater's spouses. They have a right to know and they can also help keep your spouses apart. If they refuse to believe that is your choice but it is necessary to let them know. You should also consider outing her to her family. This should not be done with a spiteful heart but in a manner pleading with them to help her wake up. That there are other ways to do it instead of this terrible way, she should divorce and go sleep with whoever she wants to but what does this teach her children?

SEPARATE Them:

They need their phone numbers changed, email address, social media accounts shutdown etc... Everything that "could have been used" to contact cheaters should have numbers changed, accounts closed etc... Closing accounts means YOU close it for them and change the password. Make sure the profile email account is something you control so if they try to reopen or change the password, you will know it.

Accountability:

She needs complete and total accountability. This includes spy/parental software that reports to you remotely from her phone any calls, texts, chats, keystrokes, GPS location etc. She needs to text you anytime she goes from one location to the next. If she tries meeting up with some john again, call their spouse and let them know. This is the ultimate killjoy short of knocking on their window when they're doing the dirty. It is common they'll try to use this to say you're being extreme or a stalker. Don't give in, its purely a tactic to try to continue their cheating. They may accuse you of not trusting or forgiving. You can forgive a drug abuser but still require accountability.

All of the above should be done BEFORE any reconciliation is offered. Understand that she may not be willing to give up her cheating or get angry at you for being a block to her cheating. in her mind, you may literally become an enemy. You requiring anything less that what is above is doing nothing more than enabling her lie and buying into it. Her worlds must collide together, she cannot continue keeping her fantasy life.

Don't loose your head in this, consider it a chess game. You must also realize that while she's in the fog, she's not thinking right. Also understand how cunning a cheater can be. She may convince you that she's changed but may only trying to get enough of the noose loosened so she can have another hookup. Don't ever concede that this is your decision, put it in her lap. This is her decision and these are the consequences. I'm not forcing you to do anything. I refuse to be 2nd and 3rd place amongst other men and if you don't want that then here are the consequences.

You must also realize that the trust is completely gone. You cannot just get that trust back, it can only be re-earned. Because the trust is gone, you cannot be completely open with her. That was a very tough lesson for me. I hacked into my wife's electronics and knew almost everything. DON'T ever give your sources. I asked her questions that I already knew the answers and then confronted her about it. I told her already knew the answers but just wanted to see if she was still a liar. If she started telling the truth, I'd ask a question I didn't know the answer. I'd ask the questions more than once at different times to see if they were different.

All of the things I mentioned above were BEFORE reconciliation was considered.

Now I'm going to give you some personal advice. You're going to see all the people who say dump her like yesterdays used condom with the corner crack whore. I have 4 beautiful children and I could not stand to see some other man raise my children. I also have some very firm beliefs on marriage. I realized that to salvage this un-salvageable relationship would take a miracle and it would involve doing something different than everyone else. I never threatened divorce with my wife but did tell her to leave our home if she's going to whore around. I told her that when she was all used up, I'd try to help her heal what ever was left over. I told her that I loved her and always would, BUT while she was actively cheating, she needed to leave.

We both got into intensive IC/MC. Yes together and IT WAS THE SAME COUNSELOR for all three. Our counselor had heavy experience helping couples through infidelity. THIS IS SO IMPORTANT. Too many counselors fall into the trap of the cheater blaming legitimate marriage issues as reasons for cheating and turn it into the marriage problems instead of the cheating problems. My counselor told me that cheaters will try to shift the blame, rewrite their marriage history and try to minimize their behavior. My counselor begged me to trust him as he'd try to become her "friend/confidante" and it would seem very early on that he was blaming me if she speaks of our marriage and his reactions. He became her confidant and then began moving her out of the fog and into reality.

All of this flies in the face of the 180 and divorce papers. That may work for some but it doesn't for so many more.

My wife now looks back at everything she put me through and doesn't understand why I stayed for her. It reveals to her the depth of my love and commitment to her that when I said for better for worse, I meant it. My marriage is not, I'll love you as long as you love me. I love her even if she doesn't love me. She's free to divorce anytime, its not slavery. She now has the gleam in her eyes for me and I see it. Because of that gleam, I know she's not doing anything now but I still have the accountability to be able to see what her activities are. Its been months since I've looked at it and that speaks volumes.

There is hope for you and your relationship. I cannot promise it will turn out well. I can tell you not to look at each day or week but you should be looking at things by the month right now. You are BOTH angry and hurt (yours is legit but her feelings are legit too regardless if they're right or wrong). Your healing path is 2-5 years long regardless of whether you both stay or leave.

We're here for you. You're not crazy and nor are the extreme mood swings. Do be careful about calling her a slut or whore, it will hurt her deep regardless of whether its true or not. There's other ways to say it.

Strengthserenity,

Sorry you've found us, but you're in great hands. Others will come along and offer great advice. Take it all in. It will be invaluable.

I think you've done great thus far in implementing the 180 and showing her tough consequences for her actions. Sadly, she's shown textbook cheater behavior.

It's almost 100% probability that you don't have the full truth. Remember, cheaters lie. Consider everything that she is telling you a lie. It's very likely there was a physical affair (PA). 2 consenting adults don't hang out at all hours just to talk. Your wayward wife (WW) is in damage control mode. If she was fully remorseful that would me she has empathy. If she had empathy she wouldn't have done this to you in the first place. So she acting from a place of regret which is not at all the same as remorse. As you point out, she's currently waffling (fence-sitting) and minimizing, and blameshifting. All cheater behavior. Ugh. We see it here every day.

You did right demanding a poly. Make sure you follow through with that.

Breathe, dude. You got this. You also did great in contacting an attorney. You have an exit plan in place. That's good. Take a bit of time to slow down. We all know the terrible feelings you're experiencing. I hate to tell you it's going to get a lot worse.

Read through the Healing Library in the yellow box at the upper left corner of your screen. Drink lots of water and try to sleep when you can. Buckle up, dude, you're in for a nasty ride.

Keep posting. We're with you.

I initially did not believe her story about what is going on with the college and the investigation but she has provided official documents of the investigation including the attorney that is representing her provide by the college. The AP spouse has already been notified and have was actually the one to expose of the other affairs. The AP spouse forgave this guy 4 times before finally cooperating with the investigation. The AP and his gf been together for 8 years. This whole thing is so sick.

First of all I’m sorry that you’re here buddy. Either way she still lying don’t trust a word that comes out of her mouth because cheaters are liars. She’s not remorseful she says sorry that her relationship with him ended (if that’s even true) because she really in love with him not you. I think you know this but you don’t want to believe it, she’s a waste of time. You deserve a lot better you’re a good guy and your little naïve but you’ll soon get educated when more people show up. Listen Please do not second-guess the advice that you will be getting from the good people SI, even if you don’t like it. Oh yeah she has slept with way more than once guaranteed she is lying. What you’re getting right now is called tickle truth she’s only going to give you the information she thinks she can get away with. Because in her mind if you knew the truth you would not try to reconcile with her.! So she’s trying to salvage everything, your Plan B she doesn’t care about you. that’s why you should cut your losses and get the fuck away from her.!

[This message edited by trojan007 at 4:04 PM, January 16th (Tuesday)]

That she could do this to me before our wedding and that I was running around putting our wedding together and she was spending time with another man.

You've pinpointed the biggest issue with her. It's not just that she cheated, it's when she cheated. A woman that could betray you so cold hardheartedly as a fiance and a newlywed, then deceive you again by not breaking contact. What is she not capable of? What will she do after she get's her nursing licence and is working with male co-workers and doctors? When you've got years invested in a marriage and children to consider? Then where will you be?

She's no victim. She's immature, selfish, and didn't give a rat's ass about her wedding or her vows. She cheated because she wanted to. She's not marriage material and she's not R material.

Don't walk away, RUN from this woman; and be glad you didn't waste more years of your life. See an attorney about an annulment instead of divorce.

You deserve better. Sorry you're here.

[This message edited by badmemory at 4:35 PM, January 16th (Tuesday)]

I completely hear you guys, I don’t take anything she says as truth. But I have made it clear that the timeline and details she gave me will be confirmed by the poly and if there was any sign of deception, she will sign the dissolution on the spot. She literally agree to the poly wholeheartedly and even said she wants to do it as soon as possible so that I can be full disclosed. I have read the healing library and also ask her to read “how to help your spouse heal from an affair “ book. She has agreed to everything I ask. My only issue is that she hasn’t 100% took responsibility for what happen. She blameshift it on the manipulation and such. Will the accountability come with time? I have set many boundaries that I learn from SI. Cut out all enemies of the marriage, NC with all male friends no exception, and no more lies or broken promises, which will result in a dissolution automatically. And she has adhere to the boundaries up until this point. The frustration is when I express my hurt and she just seem to say “I know I hurt you but I am also hurting too”. Or when I get angry she will say “ Why are you so mad”. Those comments just make me feel she isn’t remorseful yet. Does it take time for this to happen?

Have you thought of getting this marriage annulled both legally in the Church? As a Catholic you know that a Divorce can have serious repercussions on your future life in the Church. For the Church an annulment can be granted because of "the stubborn persistence in a extramarital affair at the time of the wedding or at a time immediately following".

I think you should think hard on doing that. That is not to say you wouldn't stay with her and maybe eventually remarry but it just seems to me that this entire year has been a sham. You thought this was going to be a great year and the whole marriage now feels false. If I were you I would have her prove how remorseful she is by not contesting either the legal Divorce/Annulment nor the Church Annulment. Get them both granted and decide after that whether you want her still in your life.

The frustration is when I express my hurt and she just seem to say “I know I hurt you but I am also hurting too”. Or when I get angry she will say “ Why are you so mad”. Those comments just make me feel she isn’t remorseful yet. Does it take time for this to happen?

Sometimes, yes. Other times, it never comes. The fact that she's been so disrespectful to you while you were planning your wedding is really fucked up.

She's definitely not owning her choices. Defensiveness is a red flag. She's very foggy. Not R material at all. I know you have history. But she's shown you who she is. Believe it. Unless she's fully invested in changing who she is while showing humility, there's no way you can reconcile.

Not saying it's impossible. But there's a lot of work ahead. Do you think she's up for that? You know her better than we do.

As far as the church is concern, because she already cheated on me prior to marriage, the marriage is not valid and an Anulment can be granted. As far as legal proceeding is concern, In my state I can get a dissolution which is prefer or divorce which is not. Don’t know where to go from here.

The frustration is when I express my hurt and she just seem to say “I know I hurt you but I am also hurting too”. Or when I get angry she will say “ Why are you so mad”. Those comments just make me feel she isn’t remorseful yet. Does it take time for this to happen?

SHE IS NOT REMORSEFUL ONE BIT. What us she hurting from? My guess because she found out that she was not special, just another in a line of naive women that this POS has preyed upon in his career. It seems to me that she was waiting for something, probably to finish school, and then she would leave you, he would leave his wife and they would live happily ever after.

I'm even more convinced of my advice. Get this sham marriage annulled.

If you want to reconcile, that's fine. But do it with your eyes wide open.

Predator, schmedator. She's grown, married and took vows. She did everything willingly. And lied probably thousands of times to you during the affair.

She is as much responsible for what happened as he is. And as far as you are concerned, she should be the only one responsible, as he owed you nothing.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 4:25 PM, January 16th (Tuesday)]

As far as the church is concern, because she already cheated on me prior to marriage, the marriage is not valid and an Anulment can be granted.

Consider yourself fortunate then. Most BS's don't have that luxury. I wouldn't squander the opportunity.

Cheaters are very skilled at making themselves out to be victims. Make sure you look that lawyer's office up online, call the number on the website and double-check this story directly. It's not that hard to fake paperwork.

Whatever the case, I don't think I would want to work it out with someone who ignored your wedding (after 13 years) because she was hanging out with some other guy. That says, "I don't want to be married to you." Maybe you guys dated too long? Maybe she wanted to get married before her dad died? Who knows? But it's a clear sign that she soured on the deal, or she wouldn't have been distracting herself with someone else.

I'm so sorry. I wonder if you'd be able to get an annulment given that she was starting to see someone before you tied the knot? Good luck.

Sorry. I had to do a few things before I posted. haha Glad you have a chance at the annulment. Take it!

So general consensus is to walk? Or to do a separation to see if things change? I pretty much walk out this morning tell her I am not staying if you are not capable of realizing what you did fully but haven’t told her that I was going through with the dissolution yet. Just don’t want to make a knee jerk reaction being that it’s been only 2 months. My counselor advise that it’s impossible to make a clear decision until I have grieve and get to the forgiveness stage. Saying anything now is based on feelings and nothing more. Please know all advice are being considered.

To me yes I think you should get this annulled. Maybe you could date after that if you wanted to but get some distance right now. As I've said your marriage has been a mockery and you shouldn't consider it even real. That is how I would feel about it. You of course have to decide what you want for your life but right now your WW is not giving you anything to work with. She is not being remorseful so trying to R now is really just allowing her to get away with this huge disrespect to you. I'll ask again. She says she is hurting too. From what? Is she hurting over how badly she hurt you? Or is she hurting because she misses the AP and because she was rejected by him? You can possibly work with the former. You should run away from the latter.

Thank you everyone for such fast response. To clarify everything, my counselor, church, and I all agree that the wedding is not valid what so ever because there exist deception and betrayal walking up to the alter that I was unaware of. In essence, I wasn’t allow to make my decision with complete situational clarity. As far as her pain, she state it’s from the guilt and hurt she cause not only for me but our families and also the fact that you feels disgusted by the AP AND his manipulation. She state with confidence she does not have any desire or feelings for the AP of course was more than willing to confirm all in poly test happily. I told here we are going two hours away to a highly respected infidelity poly examiner and she had absolutely no reservation in going. She has actually been pushing it.

Get the annulment.

She told you before you got the news secondhand.

What if she repeats 5 or 10 years from now with kids involved?

Guess what. You get stuck with child support and alimony.

Play the percentages and get out now.

“I know I hurt you but I am also hurting too”

That would have been the kiss of death for me and our M. She is NOT yet remorseful. She may be obeying your rules, but she has not embraced remorse. You also said she has not fully owned what she did. Another clear sign. No genuine empathy? No real remorse.