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You're moving in the right direction! I love that you're going home and although you still have all kinds of questions about how to regard your cheater, what to hope for or not hope for, etc., I think the primary lesson is coming through. Detach. Focus on your, your well-being, self-preservation and self-love. Give yourself permission to forget the outcome - trying to control that or thinking you can influence which direction HE will take is crazy-making at best.

By the way, he's not going to drop that bone until he's sure he's got another bone lined up. What you are looking for is a man that says, "No matter what, I've done wrong and I'm stopping this affair immediately!" There should be no contingencies (i.e.: I will stop the affair when my wife says she'll take me back). He's a fence-sitter and a cake-eater.

Give my best to Canada!

I'd go to Canada and don't put too much stock in his "suddenly" making his decision and choosing you. It's his last ditch effort to keep you on the line while he "tries" out his relationship with OW. He is still trying to maintain both relationships and it will be easier to do while you are away. I'd give him a list of actions, not feelings. Once you have put in your notice at work we will start the Sype MC. Read "how to help your spouse heal" and I will talk to you about it... There are plenty of things he can DO that will help you trust that he wants the marriage.

Do not let him "talk" you into believing what he is doing/feeling. What I have seen happening is that the WH "pretends" the other relationship is over during MC, leading the BS on while maintaining their Affair. You need proof that he is doing what he says. CCed on a GOOD NC letter. Also, a timeline for yourself. If you don't see action by April file.

Don't send him a list of feeling. I need you to show me you love me, show me that you are done with her... all you will get are letters/emails with lies.

Good luck

My WH also did not give up OW after Dday, took it underground, and continued to message with her for 6 weeks after their last in-person romp. The 6 months after Dday, false R and Dday 2 did, I think, irreparable damage to me and likely to our relationship.

Let me tell you what ended it. I took myself out of the situation. Things went to hell for them quickly, because it turns out the triangle didn't work without me.

Let's say WH is 80% happy with you and the M. He starts an A with OW and is then 100% happy. He thinks OW is making him 100% happy. Take away the 80% happiness and leave him with a selfish POS of a woman, and he is going to find himself 20% happy, AKA miserable.

So if you want this guy, you are doing the right thing by taking off. You are vital to the triangle.

Default Posted: 7:24 AM, February 22nd (Thursday), 2018 View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WH also did not give up OW after Dday, took it underground, and continued to message with her for 6 weeks after their last in-person romp. The 6 months after Dday, false R and Dday 2 did, I think, irreparable damage to me and likely to our relationship.

Let me tell you what ended it. I took myself out of the situation. Things went to hell for them quickly, because it turns out the triangle didn't work without me.

Let's say WH is 80% happy with you and the M. He starts an A with OW and is then 100% happy. He thinks OW is making him 100% happy. Take away the 80% happiness and leave him with a selfish POS of a woman, and he is going to find himself 20% happy, AKA miserable.

So if you want this guy, you are doing the right thing by taking off. You are vital to the triangle.

This was exactly what happened with me. Except I knew he was still communicating with OW. It didn’t stop until I extracted myself from the situation.

It’s disgusting enough to have an affair—then your wayward spouse subjects you to absolute humiliation while they break apart with their soul mate and true connection. (Which was a 5 week affair. No EA until after they slept together)

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 7:58 AM, February 22nd (Thursday)]

Hi Zoe

You are doing great. Your strength in this awful situation is impressive.

While I know you want to be hopeful, and it’s ok to be so, at this point you in no way have a remorseful spouse. He may regret what he has done, although I don’t even sense that in his words as you relay them to us, but he is in no way remorseful for how he has hurt you.

And he is definitely still in the affair. There is no doubt about that. If he was trying to save his marriage he’d be moving heaven and earth to try and make you feel safe again, and that would include leaving that job, guaranteeing NC with her, even before having a new one lined up.

I suggest you read some threads on the Wayward Side here for a while to familiarize yourself with what a truly remorseful WS looks like when they are desperately trying to save their M. Yours is showing absolutely none of the characteristics of those poor souls who have realized the devastation they have caused to the ones they love.

I’m also going to post below a list that I’ve collected from various SI threads here of what BS’s have said their WS’s have exhibited that show they are truly Remorseful. I don’t see much of these in your WH’s communication or actions. Use these along with whatever other things you think you need to see from him to even start thinking about attempting reconciliation.

In the meantime, get your plane ticket and go home to those who love you. Tell him not to follow unless he is truly done with her and wants her out of his life forever. Tell him even if he decides that you are his one and only he has a long road to ever win you back.

Continue the 180. Even in your short time using it you can see the effect it can have on both you and him. That also means no more counseling over Skype or any other method. If he wants to start counseling he should be in IC first to figure out why he can do this to one he vowed to love and honor forever. Then if he wants to ask for your forgiveness he can quit his job and return to Canada to try and win you back and if you are willing start MC there.

So 180. That means only communication about financial things from across the ocean. If he starts sending you emails about your relationship, tell him you will only discuss those things in person and in Canada. Otherwise tell him that if he wanted her so much that he should go find out what life with her will be like. You are moving on out of his infidelity.

Honestly Zoe, you deserve so much more respect than he is giving you. If he is pining away for her then you have no M. Trying to save a M while one party is in love or in linerance is like trying to save a sinking ocean liner with a single bucket. It’s impossible.

So focus on you and what you need to be happy again. Go home and speak to a lawyer and start the D process. If he shows up at your door someday with hat in hand asking for forgiveness and saying he will never talk to her again and he’s already applying for jobs in Canada then you can discuss even thinking about putting the D on hold. Until then, it’s you you you that needs your attention. Not a man who doesn’t even prioritize you as number 1 or Even number 2 in his life (those roles go to himself and his POSOW).

Take care of yourself and continue doing what you are doing. I wish you didn’t have to come back in 3 months to collect your things. But we’ll be with you on this journey as long as you need us.

—————————

I believe You currently no where near have a remorseful husband in front of you. If you did, you would know it.

- He would be inconsolable with the thought of how he was the cause of so much pain to the person he loves most in the world.

- he would be begging to know what he could do to make it right.

- for you he would want to let everyone know it was him that screwed up, not you.

- he would want to read books on how to support his BS. He proactively orders them and starts reading. He actively discusses what he is reading

- he would be in IC as much as possible to figure out what went wrong with him and how he could do this to the person he loves most in the world. He proactively schedules this for himself and also proactively asks his therapist for IC recommendations for you to help you deal with the pain he has caused.

- he would feel your pain more than his own and put your happiness ahead of his.

- he would follow your lead when it comes to intimacy, trying to figure out what you need to feel connected again

- he will gladly answer your questions at any time day or night with no objections

- he would write you a letter of apology highlighting how he must have made you feel

- he would focus most on your well being, ignoring his own

- he would realize what the OW really is and start being sick at the thought of her. He would start calling her names like POS for how she helped him destroy his life.

- They show remorse thru actions, not words. Examples of this could be that they proactively prepared a written timeline of what happened and are as thorough and factual as they can be.

- Other examples are: They book a polygraph when you are available to attend. And they buy a GPS tracker for their car so they can give you peace of mind. They sell something of value to only them to pay for these things so the cost doesn't come from your joint funds (e.g. Collectibles or jewelry or exercise equipment).

If they are only showing Regret and not Remorse then they will only be giving you words, not actions: e.g. "I'm so sorry. But you can trust me now. I promise you I've told you the whole truth: e.g. "You can trust me now. I love you. It didn't mean anything. I know I messed up - do you forgive me? I was so stupid, but I've learned from my mistakes. It's in the past now and we can move forward. I love you more now than I ever have. I promise it will never happen again, can we move on?"

Finally. THE EFFORT PUT INTO RECONCILIATION! If the betrayer doesn't work harder at repairing the relationship than they did to damage it, it isn't going to work no matter if you stay together or not. They need to be working harder at R than you are.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:21 AM, February 22nd (Thursday)]

Thank you so much Stevesn. Your advice is always very appreciated and sage. I agree with you completely and do not have the impression at all of someone who is truly remorseful or doing the work. Words are useless at this point. At least I'm starting to feel more detached about it.

So then he said, he wants us. He wants the best version of us. I asked what that means. He mentioned all the things that needed to be improved with us and in our marriage (I won't list all that here but I agreed).

If you can, tell us the list. At this point I'd at least be cautious of what you're "agreeing" with. It's not a good or healthy sign that he gave you a list of apparent demands/requirements at this point. He should be groveling at your feet, giving you the "tidal wave of love, remorse, self sacrifice, and effort" that you mention later in your post. Anything less than that means he's still in affair mode.

Your response to his "demands" can be: "I can see you put a lot of thought into this, but I'm really not interested in talking about a future relationship with you." This is all you need to say.

He asked if I could allow him to be sad about her sometimes and not be mad

Ugh. I can't roll my eyes hard enough at this.

Look at the words here. He wants you to allow him to be "sad" about her sometimes and not be mad. He is asking an impossible and highly inappropriate thing from you. This is not what a good husband expects from his wife.

Your response to something like this can just be simply "No, that's not going to work for me." But you, ZoeS, need to understand that reconciliation will mean *years* of you being mad and sad about the woman your husband had an affair with. If you choose to reconcile, your anger, hurt, frustration, whatever will *definitely* be part of the equation, and your husband will need to be on board with that reality. Can't not be.

He said I didn't need to decide if I wanted to try right then, and that I could think about what I want.

Your response: "I've done all the thinking I need to do about that. I'm not willing to be in a marriage where I'm expected to give leeway to my husband's feelings for another woman."

I could still go to Canada if that's what's best for me and he can stay and handle his work here and start dealing with getting rid of stuff in the apartment, and basically other logistics. It is true, that he has a massive project due in 3 weeks that has been going very badly because he's been such a mess. He said he would work some weekends and evenings if I wasn't here.

Translation: "Honey, I understand if you want to go to Canada and I fully support you. While you're gone I'll live out my fantasies of spending our money taking my girlfriend out to dinner every night and fucking her all over our apartment. Don't worry, you won't know a thing about it. That will give me plenty of time to really see which one of you I like best."

I'm sure it will continue when he gets home from work.

I wouldn't let it continue. There is no conversation as long as your husband is continuing his affair. Which he is as you read this. You cannot even begin to have discussions about your "relationship" until he goes full NC, you have absolute 100% proof of that, and he's 100% remorseful and committed to reconciliation. Then, and only then, can you healthily even *consider* a conversation about your relationship moving forward. That will be your decision to make and you will be back in control of your circumstances.

If he won't drop it and wants to keep the stupid conversation going all night long, and you've exhausted all of your "I'm sorry, I don't want to talk about this right now" options, then maybe go out for a while. All you have to say, politely, calmly, independently, is "I've got some things to do and I'm headed out for a while."

It's easy. Just go spend an hour in the grocery store. Talk to the cashiers. Go to a cafe and get a cup of coffee. You could even pull up SI on your phone and keep talking to us.

This will do so much more for you than a shitty conversation with your husband tonight. The husband who has been in contact with his affair partner all day. Trust this process.

But, what do I ask from him and expect him to do at this point?

I know it's hard, but stick with the 180. You really, really need to not ask anything from him. In fact, you can tell him (NOT BITTERLY!) that he's free to be with his girlfriend now, you're moving forward in your life without him. Think about how much the 180 has helped so far. Trust it. We haven't been wrong so far. Take the leap of faith.

But do I ask for it or just keep doing the 180 and see if he starts doing it on his own?

See above. Stay the course. Asking him to give you something will only translate for him as dependency, weakness, more pick-me dance. Will kill your process and do nothing to serve you. Ask him for nothing. You need him to see that you truly want and need nothing from him.

The other counsellor we are seeing tomorrow, and I am sure he can help us develop a plan.

Why are you going to a counselor with him, especially after you told him you would cancel it? Going to the counseling session (with your unremorseful affair-mode husband) would be a very anti-180 move that could hurt you and would also show him that you won't follow through with what you say -- he can do whatever he wants and you'll swallow it. Canceling the appointment would be a very empowering, pro-180 move. Imagine it. Pleasantly, politely: "hey, no need to show up at that appointment tomorrow, I canceled it." That's it.

DON'T WORRY. You can always schedule another counseling appointment in the future if things start going the way you want them to. Right now they aren't, so no counseling with this guy. This appointment is not the be all end all of your relationship or life.

It is possible he is pretending to care about my wellbeing so I will go, and he will just start up again and see how he feels about it. I don't believe he intends to do that, however he has manipulated me before.

He does intend to do that.

***

ZoeS, you're in such a horrendous place right now, and we can all see that you're doing an amazing job. Please keep up the good work. You wrote so much in this post that indicates that, as hard as it is, you understand what's happening to you and that it's unhealthy and unacceptable.

So much of the 180 is about restraint. It's normal to want to say things, to make conversations linger, to ask for things. It's normal for the WS to give you one measly nugget of something (cleaning up the cat puke) and feel like "finally! He's coming around!" Please put as much mental energy as possible into staying the course and following the advice here. You will be so thankful you did, I promise.

Please keep posting as things progress. You're doing awesome.

I am new to this post but have read through most everyone's comments. ZoeS please know how very sorry I am for you. You have a kind and forgiving heart. I wish more people were like you.

As a former BS I sympathize with your situation and everything you are feeling is completely normal. Reaching out to others through counseling, here, trusted family and friends is so healthy for you. I am glad you're not closing yourself off to help, guidance and counsel.

I have thought a lot about all the things you have said and I believe moving back to Canada right now is the right thing to do. You need your support system through this and your husband is not that for you right now. He is too conflicted, confused, untrustworthy, and quite frankly...manipulative, for you to try and resolve anything while under the same roof. All his wishy washiness is not conducive to true R. That is not healthy for your emotional, mental, spiritual or physical self..nor his. Plus it is very manipulative, whether he realizes this or not. The fact that he points out how wonderful you are, but in the same sentence basically says the same about the OW shows me that he's probably trying to hold on to BOTH of you so he'll have someone to fall back on when one of you decides to split. There is no other reason for him to still be in communication with the OW if he claims it's over with her. ZERO REASON...other than he's still trying to keep her in the wings in case you leave.

Go back to Canada, seek help to start processing all that's happened/happening, practice self-care. Have him do the same...if he so chooses. I know it's risky because you very well might lose him, but do you really want him if he won't commit to you 100%? As far as monitoring him while away...that's tricky cause you don't want to become obsessed with it (been there done that and it's INSANE) but he's proven he can't be trusted so you can't just take his word for it either. I truly believe that people who repent, take full responsibility for their offenses and begin the process of making changes in themselves will show outward signs of this. It will be hard to see from Canada, but I think in your gut you will know the truth. I say this from my own experience. I left my husband in Calif and moved to Virginia and he claimed to be working on himself but even from Virginia I knew he was lying. There were too many inconsistencies and there will be with your husband too if he's not being honest. Then you will have your answer.

I sincerely hope and pray that he will choose you and your marriage and fully commit himself to both in his heart. I pray you receive the healing available to spouses who have been so brutally betrayed by infidelity.

Thanks again everyone, for your support and advice.

I was talking to my mother and sister via Skype last night about this forum and how much it was helping me, and how you all give such tough, great advice. I guess this triggered my sister, but she started going off about how she has been telling me this so clearly. Maybe she was jealous that I was listening to strangers (?), but I have told her many times how much I've valued her counsel during this time. Anyway, I asked her to stop speaking to me with that tone of voice and it wasn't helping, and what she was saying was hurtful, but she just kept on: "How many times do we have to have this conversation? We've been having this conversation for YEARS." Long story short (paraphrasing): your husband is horrible and doesn't care about your marriage, you are a codependent idiot, and your entire life has been a pathetic mistake.

Obviously, this upset me so much, because my family was my place of emotional safety. I recently had a fight with my father because he said he was pleased I "seemed stronger now" and had "stopped blubbering" and was no longer "wallowing in self pity". I haven't spoken to him since, which was a week ago. Previously he was being amazing, but I haven't really wanted to talk to him since then. Now this, from my sister. I love my family and they love me, but I feel so disrespected and it's so hard. I feel treated like a child who they think they have to direct and manage. Is this a normal reaction? I sent them an email this morning with ideas about what is and isn't helpful right now, and a couple of links to articles about supporting victims of infidelity. Hopefully that helps. I know they are trying, but it makes me feel more alone.

I was so upset that when my husband got home from work last night I could not do the 180. I told him what happened. I settled down but couldn't detach. Later I cried, and said I didn't feel emotionally safe anywhere at all. I said I was glad he felt "stable" and it was great to want "the best version of us" but he was doing nothing, and seemed to be forgetting that he had betrayed me and ruined my life. There has never been a more non-180 moment than this. I went to sleep on the couch. He came to get me and soothed me, but of course that kind of behaviour accomplishes nothing. I did cancel the counsellor appointment. This morning we spoke and I again explained that I was trying to detach but it was so hard. He said, we have only been on the same page for 2 days (ie R). I don't know what to do to make you feel better. When I try to hug you or hold your hand you don't want that. I know you want the big things but you seem to reject the small things, which makes me feel confused. I obviously don't know how to love you, I have never made you feel loved enough. UGH. I tried to explain, but it should be obvious. I know. I shouldn't have to explain, is what I feel. I should not have to beg or plead or outline. This is manipulation, isn't it.

Of course he gets to work and there is a brief exchange between him and the OW, her uncle recently passed away suddenly and she has to go deal with that, with her suicidal mother, she is so sick and on medication. He is so sympathetic, it must be so difficult, and he sends her "love and hugs". She misses him terribly. He misses her too.

I feel so destabilized again. I was feeling good about the decision to leave but today I feel so much resistance. I am worried I will get there and feel tremendous pain of withdrawal and depression. I'm worried I will feel regret. I'm worried my family will make me feel smothered. I have to stay with them for now.

There is a job I am supposed to do on March 3, which is why I set a date of Feb 28 to leave. I feel so pressured. I know it's right to leave because he's not doing enough, but should I give him more than a few days to try?

I was doing so well. I feel needy and weak writing this. I know I should forgive myself because the process is up and down. I just need to stay strong but it's really really hard. Buying a one way ticket feels so hard.

[This message edited by ZoeS at 4:58 AM, February 23rd (Friday)]

You aren’t weak. You are in the midst of infidelity.

Your family is trying to smoother you. Your family has never been cheated on. Your family is frustrated because each person loves you. They are not the enemy. You sister has seen crappy behavior for years from your husband. She loves you. She doesn’t want you hurting like this.

Please stop confiding in your husband. Have you started packing to go home to Canada.

Please put your focus on getting ready to go home.

Your family doesn’t sound overbearing to me. They sound worried. In fheir eyes you were FINALLY gettinf away from this man.

I don’t like how your husband manipulated you with this. It was easy. You were upset. He rubbed your back.

He wouldn’t have spoken to the OW at all if he truly cared.

He has one woman wanting him at work and another crying because she needs him.

He is high on the hog.

First, I'm so thankful that you posted even while feeling "needy" and "week." These are times when you need to check in here the most. Please don't ever be afraid to do that.

And yes, please forgive yourself and keep moving forward. It's common and expected to not be 100% perfect with the 180 right at the start. At the same time, fight really hard to *not* give yourself "permission" to fall off the wagon whenever it feels too difficult. You have to fight hard to maintain your 180 process, because it sets you back every time you do something anti-180.

The family thing is tough. I would echo what Iwantmyglasses said: they sound worried, maybe relieved, and yeah, maybe frustrated. From what you wrote they also sound a little like they don't "get it." That's ok. Most people won't. Continue to be open and honest with them, understand that they won't be perfect supports. It's ok to say, in a friendly and loving way, "I love you so much, thank you for your support. I understand that you've been trying to tell me something about my husband for a long time. But right now I really just need someone to listen and to be there. We can get to that stuff another time."

I did cancel the counsellor appointment.

Absolute boss move. Good for you. Great work.

This morning we spoke and I again explained that I was trying to detach but it was so hard.

Don't tell him what you're doing. Just do it. Telling him that you're trying to detach accomplishes nothing for you, but it does let him know exactly what you're trying to do, which means he can figure out specific ways to manipulate and derail you (and it sounds like he did). Watch for that, because he'll lay it on even thicker now.

I don't know what to do to make you feel better. When I try to hug you or hold your hand you don't want that. I know you want the big things but you seem to reject the small things, which makes me feel confused. I obviously don't know how to love you, I have never made you feel loved enough.

Ok. He has a girlfriend. Go back and read this paragraph you wrote, the things he said, and think about the fact that during the same day -- maybe the same hour -- he told another woman that he loves her, misses her, etc.

You ask: this is manipulation, isn't it? Yeah, it is. He is actively having another relationship while rubbing your back and TELLING YOU the ways that YOU are making it hard for HIM and making the whole process "confusing."

I obviously don't know how to love you, I have never made you feel loved enough.

This (and really the whole paragraph) is a subtle version of blame shifting. It's a manipulation tactic that lots of Waywards use almost by gut instinct. Essentially, this makes him into a victim (Poor me! You need a form of love that is impossible for anyone to figure out! And you're confusing me even though I'm trying so hard!), which by definition makes YOU a perpetrator of some kind. It's no wonder you feel torn up inside. You're being completely fucked with, made to be responsible for your own abuse. What a mindfuck. Your husband has a girlfriend and he's convincing you, even subconsciously, that you're actually the one causing problems for him and for your relationship.

By the way, this is what love looks like: a dude agrees to be your partner, not have other partners, and work with you on shared goals and projects (all kinds, including personal/intimate ones) to the best of his ability. It's not magic, and it's not a secret. It's just a commitment, and then following through on that commitment.

Of course he gets to work and there is a brief exchange between him and the OW, her uncle recently passed away suddenly and she has to go deal with that, with her suicidal mother, she is so sick and on medication. He is so sympathetic, it must be so difficult, and he sends her "love and hugs". She misses him terribly. He misses her too.

ZoeS, after everything you went through last night with him, this should be enough for you to avoid him at all costs. As soon as he had a chance, after all the crying you did and all the conversations he had with you, he contacted his girlfriend and told her he loved her. I know it's hard, but right now every time you cry to him, talk to him, tell him what you're doing, even if you're just around him...you're not helping yourself. So far, he has learned that there is absolutely no problem with having this girlfriend. At the end of this work day, he'll come home and you'll be there, chatting with him. Why would anything change?

All of us who have been where you are understand that a big part of last night was because it "felt good" to you, even for a minute, to feel like you had your husband back. You got that backrub, you got the conversation, you had someone to cry near. It's so hard to walk away from that.

But look where you are today. You didn't have him back. You got manipulated all night. How long can you manage going on like this?

It's so hard to walk this walk. It's not what you wanted. You didn't ask for it, it's not your fault, and if you could, you'd push a reset button and send everything back to the way it was. But that is not possible. It will never be possible. It is not possible. Life is different now and will never, ever be the same. Even if your husband's girlfriend were to fall off a cliff today, your life will not be the same.

Do the 180 today. Don't talk about it, just do it. Get your stuff packed. Avoid your cheating husband. Make 180 moves, say 180 things. Put that smile on your face and get the hell out of your apartment for a while, ESPECIALLY if he's there. Just go to the store and buy a bagel or something. There is empowerment in these small actions.

The sun will rise and fall. Time will pass. You will feel better, and by now I think most of us can see that you have a very clear potential to experience life and love on a whole new amazing level after you get through this -- probably on levels you never thought possible. But you have to trust this process.

You're doing so awesome. Please keep posting.

Your sister sounds mean. Maybe you should 180 her too.

When you come back to Canada he will likely continue with the OW. He will continue with her even if you stay. If you come back to Canada she will have to watch him try and get over you.

One of the hardest part of my R was watching my spouse 'get over' his AP. Nope not on my watch, do it on your own time buddy.

Time and distance will heal you. I promise.

Hi Zoe

It can be hard to talk to family members about these things. There’s a different dynamic when siblings and parents talk to you about your personal life than there is when you discuss these things with a therapist or friends.

Sometimes you feel a level of judgement. Sometimes it’s that you are so familiar with each other it’s easier to be “less polite” when discussing these subjects than they would be if they were helping a friend.

But here’s the gods honest truth: nobody loves you more than your family. Nobody. Not us here at SI. Not any thereapist. Not your friends. And for sure not your POS WH.

They love and care about you. Even when they are driving you crazy.

Ever hear siblings say to someone picking on their bro or sis “I’ll beat the crap out of you if you ever lay a hand on my brother again! It’s my job to beat him”. Well it’s true. They will defend you to death. But they will also be the most critical of your mistakes. They want you to make good choices in life and are frustrated when they think you aren’t.

I have 3 sisters. None of them have been successful at marriage like my wife and I have. I believe they see us as a good example of what you should do. But do they ever come to us for advice on what they should do in their relationships? Never! But they’ll talk to single friends or divorced friends.

But when they need someone to pick up the pieces they always turn to us. And we do it. Am I never judgmental? Absolutely not, I let them have it at times. But then I hug them and help them. It’s so much easier for me to give advice to you, an anonymous stranger, than them. With them it’s harder for me to give the advice and harder for them to receive it. You and all of us here at SI, we have no history, no baggage with each other.

That’s not to say we don’t give good advice, we do, but I can understand why your sister would be frustrated that you’d listen to us when she’s been telling you something similar for years. With us, the presentation is simpler. The advice is easier for you to swallow. With them you have a history.

But it’s them that’s truly going to help you get thru this Zoe. They are your support system. Yes they will try to smother you with recommendations. So let them for a while. Let them take the wheel a bit for you. I don’t know if any of them have been betrayed in the past, even by a former gf or bf, but try to consider their advice as you take this journey.

You can write them again and say something like “I love you all and I love that you are supporting me. I promise to listen to what you have to say and try not to get frustrated. In turn I hope you will be patient with me as I take this difficult journey. My heart is broken and I appreciate any support you can provide. I look forward to seeing you all soon”.

So let them think they know best Zoe. In some cases they do. Can you honestly say you’ve made all the right moves in how you’ve handled things? If not, maybe it’s ok to consider the advice they are giving you and actually try it their way. Listen to them, to us, to therapists, and then decide your course of action.

Here is who NOT to listen to (as others above have said): your POS husband. He does not have your best interests at heart. Not one bit. He’s out only to make himself happy. Not you. You are last on his list no mater what he says.

A remorseful WH does not try to “console” you and then goes and tell his POSOW how much he loves her. It’s all an act. A game to him, pretending to be your Knight in shining Armour (KISA) when hes actually the one who is burning down the village.

He says he doesn’t know how to love you enough. That’s bullshit. If he loved you enough he would know. If he loved you he’d be saying these words to you “I’ve been a piece of shit. I cannot believe what I’ve done to you, the one I love the most in the world. I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you, whether you will have me or not”. And taking action: “today I quit my job. I have booked my own flight to Canada. I’m getting away from this place and from her. No job is worth having if it means my life is without you. I will never contact that bitch again. I followed her willingly down the wrong path. I’m starting IC when we get home to figure out how I could do this to you. How I could do this to someone I care about so much”

Zoe, have you heard or seen any of this? I don’t think so.

He is not your friend in any way, let alone your lover. Read the 180 again. Read your thread again and the advice from all the posters. Stop talking to him at all. There is nothing to say. If you haven’t already, don’t tell him about this site. If you have, screw him, keep posting.

We can help you, your therapist can help you, you friends can help you, and yes your family can help you. But none of us can if you don’t want to help yourself. So put on those big girl pants and focus on you. Frankly he’s an asshole and doesn’t deserve the energy your brain uses thinking about him.

Get your plane ticket and go home.

Let us all help you. You deserve it.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:40 AM, February 23rd (Friday)]

Thanks again everyone for your strength and wisdom.

My sister does love me, but she has an overwhelming need to be "right" most of the time, and that is really difficult. Not just with me but with all her closest relationships. But it's an issue for another day.

I bought my plane ticket. I am leaving on Wednesday.

I told WH and he asked what was my plan - I said it was a one way ticket because that's all I could decide right now. I asked what his plan was (I know, mistake) and he said hopefully continuing to talk about things with you and organize things here. I was a bit taken aback that's what he thought. Anyway, the rest of the day he proceeded to clean the house (I also was cleaning and packing but he did a lot more), get groceries, get me flowers, offer to make me tea, showed concern for me when I was feeling ill. He read a book on "what to do to help your betrayed spouse". Granted, I recommended it, but it was the first time he really sat down and fully read something.

Later in the day I came back and reread all the messages here to remind me what to do. I was doing well, I went for a run and was feeling strong and independent. But I felt like he wasn't getting what was happening so I finally said to him, gently, I am not sure you understand what's happening here. I'm leaving you. I love all these nice things you're doing, this is the nicest you have been to me in 8 months, and it's great, but these are not the things I need you to do. To me, you have not definitely ended your relationship and you still have a girlfriend. He said no, he hadn't understood and thought we had turned a corner. He asked if "the door was closed", I said for now you should consider it closed, but it can open again if you do things differently. I went for walk. It was hard but I felt strong.

I came back and he was sullen and silent. I ignored him for awhile but that ALWAYS gets me. I failed again on the 180 and asked him what was wrong, he said, well the door is closed. And I said, really, that's what you took away from our conversation? The letters I wrote you and my statement that the door could open if you did things differently? He said those letters were in the past. And I was like, the letters are still true. What is happening is that you are still seeing her everyday and you won't send her a no contact letter. You won't cut the threads between you and I can see that you don't want to. He said it was impossible to financially get through this next while without his job. We talked about how he was wrapped up in his own feelings in this and not considering mine - this he pointed out and was sorry. I said I still felt he was considering his feelings and her feelings above mine. He said he wasn't, he would send the letter if I really wanted him to. I said well it has to be what you want, what is your reluctance. He said it wasn't the action but the reaction he was worried about. It wasn't that he cared about her more he was just considering the relative strength of the people involved. I asked, what do you mean, he said nevermind it doesn't matter. No really I pressed, what? Well, she used to be a cutter, she cut herself, and hurt herself in times of intense stress. I was overtaken by rage. I screamed at him in a way I have never screamed. I am not a screamer, at all. Do you really not understand my intense distress? I don't fucking care about her. I walked away. He came and said sorry but the rest of the night we both felt miserable and hopeless. It was terrible.

I keep failing on the 180. Everything feels ruined. He either doesn't understand or refuses to understand what I'm saying and every time we speak it seems to just get worse.

I am going, but I am so discouraged. I want to make things better but I don't know how. I don't want things to be left in this way. At times the 180 makes me feel like I'm being fake and seems to just confuse him. I guess I am doing it wrong and being extremely inconsistent.

[This message edited by ZoeS at 4:51 AM, February 25th (Sunday)]

All you can do is let him go. My ex was like yours. Didn’t want to be “an asshole” to the OW while he was being incredibly cruel to me by staying in contact. And he only wanted to be with me if I could promise him our relationship would be better than it ever was. Um, no, I couldn’t even envision getting back to where we were pre-dday, there’s no way in hell I was going to promise things were going to be better than ever.

I think you are not seeing things entirely for what they are. Your partner is very immature. And his scenario for reconciliation amounts to holding the threat of an affair over your head if things are not great in the relationship. Basically all he has said to you is - hey babe, if you can be better than my current OW and every other future potential OW I ever meet, then it’s you I want! It’s a completely empty and meaningless “offer” he has made you.

But, what do I ask from him and expect him to do at this point?

You are already a little past this, but the simple answer to give him if the question arises again is

"I want to feel SAFE."

That's it. That is what you need for a start. You don't give him a laundry list of what to do---you tell him what you NEED....and it is HIS JOB to do the rest. He could 'easily' stop all communication with her....even if that means that he goes to his superiors to explain his situation. He could Skype you, constantly update you, and show you that he is making every effort(short of complete financial ruin if this is a major concern to you) to get out of this situation. How is that for starters?

But you already know that he is not willing to do this. It would have already been done if he was serious. So stop engaging him for these next few days, and get back home to family.....where you are going to detach much quicker than you are right now.

ZoeS, I still think you continue to do great. You're making mistakes, but they are very common for a person just learning to do the 180. But you're being mindful and seem to be aware of the fact that when you fall off the 180 wagon, it doesn't feel good.

At times the 180 makes me feel like I'm being fake

Understood. I said the same thing in a thread once when I was new to my process. And a very kind person told me this (paraphrased): "what you do is act as much as you can for as long as you can like the person you want to be. So, for example, if you're not really "happy," just act happy anyway. You do the 180 behaviors over and over and over, for a long time, really consciously acting in certain ways even when it feels hard or inauthentic, until one day you realize that you're no longer 'acting,' it's just the way you feel."

I hadn't thought about it this way before. And THEN I realized that this nice person had actually simply given me a long version of "fake it 'til you make it."

It turned out to be invaluable advice. It turned out that if I didn't make conscious decisions to act in certain ways, and follow through on those decisions, then I would default to acting in destructive, unhelpful ways. I would do what you are currently doing -- ignore the fact that my wife had a boyfriend, ask her "what's wrong?", engage conversation, accept her affection, etc., etc. All the while, I had ongoing evidence of her active, current boyfriend. In the end, I hurt myself for months. Really hurt myself. Acting in this way only enables a cheating partner and destroys a betrayed partner.

Yeah, doing the 180 can feel fake at first. And in a way, it *is* (FAKE it til you make it). But that's because you are in an unreasonable, abusive, traumatic situation being orchestrated by someone who up to this point you trusted with every ounce of your being. When you're acting in non-180 ways, you are acting in ways that feel "reasonable" and "normal" to you -- confide in your husband, tell him how you're feeling, ask him what's wrong, etc. -- because in a normal situation, that *is* authentic, real, and healthy. But you are not in a healthy or normal situation. Very far from that.

That's why it feels so weird to act differently, and why most people need tons of help implementing the 180 correctly.

and seems to just confuse him.

The people here at SI understand where you are and how to get out of it, and this is why we're all nudging you in certain directions. It's not to kill your marriage or confuse your husband -- it's to help you make your way out of an infidelity situation. If you can't get out of infidelity, you have *zero* chance of anything good happening, and there is *zero* chance of saving your marriage if that's what you end up truly wanting.

But to be honest, yeah, the 180 could "confuse" your husband. This is not because the 180 is manipulative or anything; it's because you will not be responding to his words and actions in the ways that he would expect. But remember: those words and actions of his are *extremely* manipulative, abusive, dishonest, and sociopathic. You know this by now, but it bears repeating: your husband has a girlfriend, you have ongoing proof of this, and yet he is daily (hourly?) acting like he doesn't while you slowly fucking die. Talk about fake and confusing!

At this point, I really think the best thing you can do for yourself is to follow through with your travel plans, regardless of how well you do with the 180 over the next 3 days. Still, you'll feel better and do better if you can stick to your 180 plan. So I'm going to pick apart your day now, if you don't mind. I hope this continues to be helpful.

I asked what his plan was (I know, mistake)

Yep. Stop asking him about anything. Do it for 24 hours, no matter what he does and says. You will enjoy the results.

get me flowers

Same day he texted his girlfriend and sent her lots of love and hugs, right? Your response to something like this should be "These are very nice, but no thank you." If he pressures you about it, do not engage in conversation. If he won't stop, politely leave.

But I felt like he wasn't getting what was happening so I finally said to him, gently, I am not sure you understand what's happening here. I'm leaving you. I love all these nice things you're doing, this is the nicest you have been to me in 8 months, and it's great, but these are not the things I need you to do.

Mistake. Stop approaching him and telling him anything. Stop caring about what he's "getting" or not getting. Words are meaningless to him anyway, as you can see from his words. It's your actions that will send clear messages to him, and you need to act in a way (for yourself) that is *not* to communicate anything to him anyway. Again, NOT that the 180 is some secret message code thing! But your husband will get nothing from your words or attempts to get a message across other than affirmation that you're still willing to give him essentially everything he wants (your attention, your longing, your effort) while he has a girlfriend right in front of you.

To me, you have not definitely ended your relationship and you still have a girlfriend. He said no, he hadn't understood and thought we had turned a corner.

I'm very curious about what he's saying here? No, I don't still have a girlfriend? What didn't he understand? Doesn't matter.

Watch out for qualifiers like "To me..." No need for this, and it's not your opinion that he's having a completely inappropriate relationship with someone who isn't his wife. You don't need to tell him how you know. Just "you have a girlfriend, so I'm moving on."

I said for now you should consider it closed, but it can open again if you do things differently.

Same here. No need for "for now," or "it can if..." Just sending a message that even while he's having a girlfriend right in front of you, he still has a chance, you're still open to him.

asked him what was wrong

It's ok, not a failure but a setback, but yes, please stop this. Give yourself 24 hours of not asking him this question at all. The poor, sullen man. So sad. Wonder if he texted his girlfriend about it.

It wasn't that he cared about her more he was just considering the relative strength of the people involved. I asked, what do you mean, he said nevermind it doesn't matter. No really I pressed, what? Well, she used to be a cutter, she cut herself, and hurt herself in times of intense stress.

Sometimes I wonder if they all say the same thing.

Here's a translation for you: "I *have* to keep having this affair! For the good of humanity! I will literally put another human being's LIFE in danger if I don't keep cheating on you! Can't you see I'm actually being noble and altruistic? Christ-like even!"

every time we speak it seems to just get worse.

You are correct. The biggest part of the 180 is to stop having these conversations. So stop having them. You will feel better and help yourself that way.

I want to make things better but I don't know how.

I'm so sorry, ZoeS. We all know what you're feeling and if we could wave a magic wand for you, we would. The harsh truth is that you *can't* make things better. Only your WS can do that, and you can't control his actions. Look at how much you haven't been able to do that so far.

The 180, well-implemented, is your only option. He may come around, he may not -- and then you can make a good choice about whether or not to truly try reconciliation with this man. But I promise you -- he WILL NOT "come around" as a result of the things you're currently doing or saying. You are only prolonging your own agony, and he is learning that you'll put up with a lot while still keeping the door open for him. I know you told him the door is currently closed, but your actions continue to tell him that the door is open and waiting for him whenever he wants it. So he's good for now; can have his cake and eat it, too. Can have a girlfriend and a wife at the same time. What a lucky guy.

***

ZoeS, have you really thought about what your life would be like, what you would do, if your husband's girlfriend suddenly died tomorrow? If she was totally gone? Would everything be ok then? Would you welcome the dude back with open arms, thankful this whole mess is behind you? Call your family and tell them everything's fine now? Just go back to your happy marriage as if nothing ever happened?

It is sooooooooo hard and not your fault, but you have to check in with that reality. What would happen at this point if he gave up his girlfriend, never talked to her again? Where would you, the human being ZoeS, end up in 6 months? A year? 10 years?

(edit: some wording in the 2nd paragraph)

[This message edited by Okokok at 11:11 AM, February 25th (Sunday)]

Thanks annanew and jb3199. This is so true. I have to let go of control, I know this but it's a struggle. I need to just simply state what I need and leave him to do whatever he will do. Then I can decide if it is or isn't enough.

We spoke today and I feel more at peace with it. I am not being unclear or unreasonable, and I need to stop blaming myself for his inaction.

Zoe

The above posters have hit the nail on the head. You don’t need to keep telling him what he needs to do. You don’t need to keep telling him what he is doing is wrong. You don’t need to keep telling him..... anything .... period.

The 180 is not to make him come back and work to make you feel safe. You cannot control that. The 180 is to help you detach from someone who is completely making you feel unsafe.

And the easiest way to make it feel authentic is to stop talking to him altogether. There is no need. If he is still in any contact with her, even if just work related, then he is still in the A.

No need to tell him for the 20th time what you need to feel safe or that there is even a chance. That is all on him to figure out, or not to.

The sooner you let go trying to control the outcome the sooner you can work on your own path to happiness.

Go to Canada, talk to an attorney and start the D process to take control.

If he shows up there finally saying the right words you can take it from there and decide if the 2-5 year path to R is one you can both handle. But until he does, there is only one path for you and that is without your cheating WH.

Let's say WH is 80% happy with you and the M. He starts an A with OW and is then 100% happy. He thinks OW is making him 100% happy. Take away the 80% happiness and leave him with a selfish POS of a woman, and he is going to find himself 20% happy, AKA miserable.

THIS is so accurate! BTDT.

My FWH was also a KISA...didn't want to "hurt OW's feelings" - "she's not a bad person" - blah, blah, frickety blah... ....

After years of IC (then MC), FWH is a changed man. But he had to learn why he had the innate need to please people. He did this with men as well - helped out with stuff and left me behind. Part of the reason is I did not need saving...I'm a pretty strong gal...and the other was he FOO issues.

Go to Canada...NC for awhile with your WH (I didn't speak to mine for a month and when I said don't contact me, he respected that - and this is when he began to remove his head from his ass and realized the horrid choice he had made). I was gone for three months and didn't consider going back home until he had been in IC for a bit. I was in IC as well to help me cope with all of it.

Yes, I was miserable and sad...yes, I missed him...but I knew what I had to do. If he continued with OW, then D was the only option. I was not going to be Plan B.

Hugs honey...I know this is hard. I do understand.