SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Zoe you had a lot of things going this week. How are you doing with everything. For me being in a safe place like family is when it hit me harder.

Thanks PricklePatch for checking in. I've been feeling a bit guarded and unsure about things. I'm not sure what everyone here will think about what I've been doing. I've been working on making my own decisions and choices. I've seen my counsellor twice, and we're focusing on helping me feel confident with decision making and looking after myself. This feels really important to me right now.

I feel like I'm handling the betrayal okay on my own, reading books and thinking things through. I'm starting to feel triggered by things. I'm starting to feel more angry.

WH sent me an apology letter and flowers. I responded with a letter that basically outlined my boundaries and needs in order to consider talking about our relationship. This happened last week. I asked him to send a no contact letter and he did, on Friday. They started deleting all the work chat stuff so I said something about that. Now that avenue is gone. I talked to him on Skype and asked him to show me his phone. He didn't have any chat apps anymore, he said he deleted them but said he had been using Whisper. He's going back to work tomorrow, obviously this is stressful and I am completely uncomfortable with it. He says he will tell me if he hears from her, or wants to reach out to her. I don't trust either of them.

A couple of days ago, the divorce filing was ready which I went ahead with to protect the assets. I informed WH and told him it was a precautionary measure at this time. He was not happy. We have moments of connecting but mostly it feels very strained. He seems to feel that maybe I'm tricking him and don't really want to reconcile (well yeah, I'm pretty unsure right now). He's feeling the walls I've put up and he's not used to it. When we talk on Skype it's basically me asking for his feelings, thoughts, information, and him sharing the bare minimum. I'm not feeling very hopeful at this moment. He doesn't seem truly remorseful. He thinks he's trying. I'm frustrated. He has not been showing me the “tidal wave of love, remorse, self sacrifice and effort” that I want. I feel like maybe he's not really healthy enough for that. Or maybe he's not motivated enough. Anyway, I'm not satisfied with his level of effort as it is.

He still plans on returning to Canada in June. So far he has told one coworker about leaving, but not quit or given notice to the landlords. So that's where I am. One day at a time. Figuring out what I want to do. I don't know if I would ever be able to forgive him, but I don't feel that I have to know that right now. I don't feel obliged to “set him free”. I would like to see if he will wake up as other WS have in the Wayward forum. But I know that may be wishful thinking, and there is a time limit on that. I have to get what I need from him sooner than later if this has any chance at all.

I'm feeling pretty vulnerable, but at the same time strong. I'm not as afraid as I used to be, and I know I can handle whatever may come even if it's really tough.

Zoe, it sounds like your making choices your comfortable with.

Did you confront him about staying at her place over night? Is he being honest about the affair being physical?

Please continue to take care of your self.

I did confront him about staying overnight the day I left. He didn't have too much to say about it. But what is there to say. Yes, I'm a total a-hole and I thought you'd never find out. As I write that I wonder why I am even considering giving him a chance.

I forgot to mention that I told him I would want him to write out a timeline of the affair and any private contact they've had especially since DDay, and then take a polygraph. That hit him hard. He freaked out, but I feel like he's taking it seriously and knows I'm not taking any crap anymore. Good.

Pretty on target Zoe. I tihink the thing that would make me think twice is the planning of it. Did he admit to more then once?

Was he regretting getting caught or remorseful he did it?

Ah non remorse. I find it interesting your tricking him. Seems he is the trickster.

Yes he admitted to more than once. The PA lasted for 6 months, EA probably 2-3 months before that. I found their Skype conversations so I knew everything at D-day.

Hi Zoe

Great to hear from you. Excellent job on moving forward with the legal proceedings. And I hope IC is helping. Are you able to add sessions during this difficult time?

Here’s the only thing I’ll say about your interactions with your WH though. At some point you are going to have to cut things off with him if he doesn’t start showing signs of remorse. Real signs, not window dressing.

Zoe, you shouldn’t have to tell him every step he needs to take to win you back and rebuild his marriage with you. He is a grown man, let him start behaving like one. If he cannot, then what good is he to you.

I want to tell you. If my wife had moved 5000 miles away because of my affair, and I was truly remorseful for what I had done and wanted to win her back at all cost, I would be finding a job back in her city and moving there in a few days. It wouldn’t matter to me if I thought she would give me a chance or not. I would show up on her doorstep and beg for forgiveness. I wouldn’t be waiting for June.

You deserve that Zoe. Right now I don’t see him doing that or anything close to it. I’m sorry, because again that’s what you deserve.

Keep doing what you are doing. And if you are not getting any satisfaction, it’s time to stop communicating with him. He’s not worthy of you.

Take care.

I forgot to mention that I told him I would want him to write out a timeline of the affair and any private contact they've had especially since DDay, and then take a polygraph. That hit him hard. He freaked out, but I feel like he's taking it seriously and knows I'm not taking any crap anymore. Good.

GOOD! ^^^^^^^ Now hold firm to this. Too bad that he is freaking out. You have been freaking out for a long long long time. I am glad you are finally getting some support around you. You are getting stronger bit by bit. Hang in there.

I think the next step, which I know is very hard and scary to REALLY let go... is to stop talking to him. No personal conversations. Everything by email and only if it is about finances. I know how hard it is to break the pattern when we have been so duped for so long. But you will feel yourself getting stronger the sooner you finally take this step.

He has no rite to call any shots. Give him the D papers and then sit back and let yourself heal. Believe it or not, there will come a time when you will finally have your heart catch up with your head and you will set yourself free.

Feet to the fire Zoe. Did you get std tested? He needs a clean test as well.

ZoeS, I just wrote like a million words in response to your posts, but then I deleted it all. What more is there to say about what you're experiencing? He's still in full-on affair-mode and it's obvious. I hope you can truly see it. No chance in hell he's not talking to AP daily. He is.

Your focus on yourself and the choices you're making seems soooooo much more important than what he's doing.

Yes, I'm a total a-hole and I thought you'd never find out. As I write that I wonder why I am even considering giving him a chance.

This is the realest, heartbreakyest post of the day.

It's true, ZoeS. He is this guy. He did it because he thought you'd never find out. After all he said to you in the days leading up to your departure. What a liar.

You do deserve better than this. I hope you really explore why you're considering giving him a chance.

Hi Zoe

Weekly check in. How are you doing? How are things progressing.

I’m hoping you’ve been able to detach some, but regardless, just wanted you to know that you have support here.

Take care.

Thanks everyone for your advice and support as always. Thanks Stevesn for checking on me again. I haven't posted because I wasn't sure what to say. Things are... up in the air at the moment.

WH and I are talking, but it seems to go badly so often. He's given notice on the apartment and wants to return to Canada. I do believe he's not talking to AP on a personal level, but he still hasn't quit his job because he has this big project to finish. I haven't told him he should quit immediately, but I wish he would find a way. I wish he would just know that it would make a world of difference. I wish he would feel that me and our marriage are more important than any work project. He says he's trying to make me feel safe and loved, and I believe that he believes that, but I feel like I have to ask him to do everything. I don't see a lot of initiative and it makes me feel really let down. I try to explain what I want and he keeps focusing on the fact that he's “failing” all the time. He said he knows he's supposed to “move mountains” but he doesn't seem to know what that means. He seems exhausted. It feels like he doesn't have a lot to give me. When I express anger he doesn't take it well and gets defensive (but that's always been the case). He said he feels like he's not getting a lot from me, although he knows that's needy because he's not the wounded party. I can see that he is grieving his AP, and that hurts me so much. I want him to share positive feelings with me but he thinks there is a “narrow range” of feelings and answers that he is “allowed to share”. This isn't true but I don't know how to fix this dynamic. In a way, it feels like blame-shifting. It's true, when I ask, “do you think she's better, your soul mate”, there are not a lot of answers that are okay for me. But otherwise, there are about a billion good things he could say.

I know some of you may question why I'm giving him a chance at this point. It's risky and it might hurt, but I am not going to be stupid. If there is a silver lining to find, I want to find it. If there isn't, then I will decide carefully and thoughtfully when it's time to let it go. I'm not ready to let it go yet. I believe that he, and I, are bigger than this. I want to believe that the good that we once were still exists in this mess. I want to believe we have the chance to be one of the couples that can come through this and get stronger and better. I want to believe that one day he will realize he didn't love her, that he made a huge mistake, that I am the greatest thing that ever happened to him (he used to say that). He's been there for me so many times when I was lost. If our places were switched, I would want him to give me a chance to make it better. I know I can't wait forever for him to “get it”, or to make me feel special again. I know that these days, since D-day, and how things are going right now are damaging everything further. My patience is waning, but I still have some grace to give.

I'm not sure what I should do at this point. Part of me thinks it would be better to stop talking to each other until he leaves his job, but I know that would be super stressful. He is very alone right now and there are so many things to do.

In a way, it feels like blame-shifting. It's true, when I ask, “do you think she's better, your soul mate”, there are not a lot of answers that are okay for me.

It IS blame shifting. He's blaming you for not meeting his needs right now so that if he goes back to the OW, he can say it was your fault. Zoe, do you have access to his phone records? Can you check that he is keeping NC outside of work? How do you know that he isn't just continuing to see her until the move?

I'd like to point out that it's okay to not be done yet. It's perfectly fine to keep waiting and seeing if he will turn a corner. What is not okay is accepting the blame that he is giving you right now and the excuse that he doesn't know what to do. He knows. You have told him. He is not deaf or blind. He understands exactly what he needs to do but he doesn't want to do it so he whines, asks, and makes it your job to figure out something that he can do so that he doesn't have to face any consequences.

That's what this is really about. He's doing everything that he can to cover his ass so that he can leave with as few consequences as possible between him and his job, him and the OW, and all of it is at your expense. Of course he should come back to Canada and save his marriage ASAP. But he thinks he can put it off. He thinks that you will suffer in silence and accept him back with open arms. Show him that you will not do that.

Part of me thinks it would be better to stop talking to each other until he leaves his job, but I know that would be super stressful.

YES! Tell him that you're looking for actions, not words. Give him space so that he can figure out on his own and earn his way back into your good graces. Make him take accountability by 180'ing him if he doesn't. Show him that you mean business. He either gets with the plan for R or you will start to prepare yourself to move on without him.

The problem with talking to him right now is that you're sending the complete wrong message. You're playing into the narrative that if he just complains, whines, and feels sorry for himself enough that you will swing in and save him from himself. He seems to think that the second he complies, this will all go away and that HE just has to hang on long enough to wrap up things at work/with OW and then everything will go back to normal. It won't. That's impossible. You will be dealing with this for years to come even if he magically transforms into a remorseful spouse tomorrow. Talking to him, giving him support, caring about his pain and his stress as opposed to yours, is detrimental to you and it's detrimental to R because he will expect you to keep putting your pain aside for him over and over again until you snap.

So stand strong and 180. Make him realize he's about to lose it all and jump at the chance to stop it. He's not going to do it unless there's enough pressure on him that he feels like he has to and as long as you play the good wife and keep supporting him, there is no pressure on him to move mountains.

Yes I agree with Nek....

Zoe, it’s ok to hold out hope that you someday will be able to Reconcile and have a different but happy M. It will never be the same, but many here have found a way to a satisfying relationship again.

But the key is both partners have to be ALL IN. They both have to want it very badly. And your WH right now does not. He shows you glimmer of hope, but that’s only to keep you on the hook. And more often than not it’s because he wants to see how it goes with the OW.

You haven’t revealed your methods about how you know so much about him and what he’s doing. And you don’t have to.

But I’m wondering how you know he’s not in contact with the AP anymore. Can you monitor all his phone calls? Can you see when she comes over your apartment?

And how closely do they work together? Are they in the same building? Same floor? Same cubicle space? Can you tell what they are saying to each other when they are at work? He told you he’d tell you each time she’d try to contact him. Has he?

I don’t understand how your so sure they are no longer romantic. That doesn’t seem likely as you have not made it a deal breaker for him and he potentially still sees her daily.

The ironic part, Zoe, is that the one thing that you won’t do, is probably the only thing that would get his attention and possibly make him finally “move mountains”. And that is start the divorce process in earnest and stop talking to him.

Zoe, how many times does he need to hear what you require to not end your marriage. He knows. You have told him. If he wanted to do it he would.

I will tell you for me and millions of men in this world, if my wife were about to leave me, and I didn’t want it. There is no work project that would keep me from showing up on her doorstep on my knees. That’s just not happening with him. That really should tell you something.

You said he’s been there for you in the past. Did you treat him then like he’s treating you now? It’s hard for me to imagine that is true. Don’t equate the support you required from him to what he’s doing to you now. It’s night and day. Married people do t treat women they love like this if they truly want to be with them.

Listen if you really need proof, maybe hire a PI in Germany to follow him for a week. Of course he couldn’t see what was happening during work hours, but at least you’d see if they are still on a whirlwind romance.

Otherwise, if you truly want something to possibly happen, to get you out of this state of limbo, I recommend having him served D papers. You mentioned you took action to protect assets. I’m not sure I understand that or how it works. Is that completed? Does it include the process to terminate the marriage? Has he actually been served? If not, you should get back with the lawyer to ask how to serve him papers to terminate the marriage. I’m not sure how that works across country boundaries. And then request it happens.

If you just keep going on and having the same conversations over and over again nothing is going to change. His words don’t have the actions behind them to back them up. He’s going to keep telling you the same things and you’re gonna keep getting frustrated.

I hope you’ll consider what I and others have said here and try the actions we suggest.

In the meantime, how has the job search gone. Are you working? Have you been meeting with friends and your IC?

And have you joined any groups or signed up for any classes that will expand your circle of friends. It’s time to enrich your life, meet new people, try new things. Fill your time so you have to think about him less and less.

Until that man comes to your door to win back your heart, the only focus should be on you.

Please consider it.

Take care

Hi Zoe

Checking in on you again.

I was wondering how you were doing rebuilding your life back at home in Canada? Do you have a job yet? Have you been going out with family and friends. Have you been meeting new people? Have you been working with an IC on the pain he caused you.

Those are all good things to do in order to detach from a WS who is not playing the role he vowed to as the protector of your heart who promised to love honor and cherish you.

I was hoping you would re-read my post above and try and take some of the suggested actions. I know you have found it difficult to go beyond the strong actions you took to get out of Germany and really show him that you are not going to share your husband with another.

But if he is truly going to do something to save your marriage and end things with her, it will only be after you show him how serious you are about ending it if he won’t cut her out of his life.

Please consider working with a lawyer and starting the D process. Ironically it may be the only thing that tells him how serious you are and get him to see what he is losing.

If he does and shows up at your door, then great, you can put D on hold and see if you can make this work.

If not, then you have your answer, that he is choosing her, and you can get out of this unhealthy relationship and move on to find happiness in your life.

As always, stay strong, and know we care about you.

Thank you for your advice nekonamida and Stevesn. I appreciated it, I'm sorry I didn't thank you before. I guess I wasn't ready to do some of those things, and I needed to process in my own time and in my own way. I know there are actions that have been proven to work, and of course it makes a lot of sense, but it didn't feel like me, and it felt fake at that moment. I know, "fake it 'til you make it", but I just couldn't.

I have been going to IC, seeing friends, and finally I applied for a job which felt great and I will continue with that process. I do have freelance work, but have not been very busy. I'm still having a really hard time concentrating, and the nature of my work is very people-oriented and requires a lot of creativity and enthusiasm so it's been difficult. In general, I feel I'm doing really well and I feel good about where I am with things. I feel 1000% better than before. At no point do I feel I can't handle it. That's what I've been really focusing on in IC, and just in general, and it's working: to feel really competent and self-reliant.

In terms of WH, it's always been a struggle for me to put my foot down with him because of his reactions. But finally I snapped, and his reaction was pretty immediate. He still hasn't quit his job but otherwise wants to return to Canada and has been starting the moving process. I told him I really didn't know if I cared anymore (and I meant it). However it is good if he helps me get the cats back here as I can only bring one on the plane. I think it's understood that even if he comes back here it doesn't guarantee anything at all. I don't know if it's normal at this stage to feel this way. I really don't know if I have any love for him anymore, or if I want to try. He keeps justifying not quitting with the money and how expensive everything is and will be... I finally told him I don't give a f#$k and to enjoy his money without me. As for the OW, I do believe the personal contact has stopped but I will confirm that with a poly, eventually, if we get to that stage. If I want to R. I absolutely did make it a deal breaker and I'm sure that's the only reason it stopped.

He sent me flowers today, and my sister as well (she had surgery). At first it made me feel good, warm feelings, but now I almost feel manipulated again. My attitude and outlook has just changed. It's only been a short while, so I'm still adjusting to it. It feels really different for me.

I am starting to see that I was still sort of in shock or denial before... even now I think I still am and can't feel the full weight of what he did. I think that must be normal, I'm processing it as best as I can. I've learned in IC that I have a very strong blocking/numbing defence mechanism. I'm working on that but I can't really stop it yet. Anyway, as I start to really feel pieces of it, as it sinks in, my heart feels harder. Colder. I don't feel weak or scared anymore. Maybe this sounds stupid, but if I look inside it's like there is a dragon, and it will lay waste if provoked. I've never felt that before in my life that I can remember. But it feels good, I like the dragon.

I know whatever happens, I will be fine. I truly believe that and I believe my life can be wonderful. I'm focusing most of my energy on me. It's hard to switch off caring about him and stop trying to help him (and guide him), but I realize that was a pattern that I always followed. We actually talked about that - his learned helplessness. When he would act pitiful and helpless, I would help, and so many of his problems are self indulgence. I basically told him I was done forever with his nonsense and maybe with him too. Hence the activity on his end and the flowers. That's where I am now... I know this isn't a super exciting update so that's why I haven't posted much lately. Hope everyone is doing well and making progress. Hugs from me!

Zoe,

Glad to hear your making progress in IC. I can understand why you feel you are still in shock. There are tests that predict your health prospects, one of the questions is martial infidelity.

Not only are you shocked by his poor choices, but the fact this woman has a child and he didn’t want children. I belief you do or did. His lies, his disrespect, his continued waffling. It is hard to get strong enough to act.

It seems clear that your seeing you can survive without him, I believe you can heal and thrive.

Ah Zoe,

Hugs to you. You’ve come leaps and bounds.

The dragon is your friend. He comes out to protect you. Listen to him.

I send strength and prayers. None of this easy. But you sound so much stronger, it’s so good to hear!

Thank you for the support. I really appreciate it. I am stronger but it's not easy. It really feels like a roller coaster, even though I am somewhat removed from it. I still feel like I'm dealing with things on the peripheral of the betrayal... barely touching the betrayal itself. Is this an experience others have had? I still feel there is a mountain of pain heading my way, and I'm starting to realize that the "2-5 years" when considering R is no joke. In my mind, we haven't really even begun to deal with it yet.

I'm returning to Germany in a few weeks to pack things up, and get my cats, and I have a few work commitments as well. We are flying back together. He is making efforts, and is in IC. At my suggestion, he switched counsellors because the other one was useless. We talk about these things, and he's trying. Some days I'm so angry it's hard to see his efforts. Though I never think my expectations are unreasonable. Once he is back in Canada, we can see if there is anything to work on. I don't know.

I've given him way too much leeway in the past, and I won't do that again. It feels like I'm looking at him in an entirely different way. I read in another post that we as BS see the WS as an enemy... not a spouse or even a friend. To me, it feels that way. Like he's an alien or pod person. It's almost like, in order to give him a chance, I expect him to be a different person, and I don't know if he can. Is that something others have experienced? I'm seeing him as a more selfish and self-pitying person than I realized before. I don't know if that can change. If others have had a WS like this, I would appreciate your experience.

I'm concerned about seeing him again, and going back there. He is being kinder to me, and seems more stable. But it will be stressful to deal with selling all the stuff and the moving logistics on top of dealing with my emotionally draining work and seeing him again.

Thanks for reading.