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Wayward Side :
What to do?

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 9:45 PM on Friday, March 9th, 2018

Godheals The same point you made.

Everyone has there own way of wanting to know things or handling things in certain situations.

In my point it doesn't matter what the WS "moral or ethical" values are. The BS may be of the type that they would want to know. From what FF has written in the past about his wife (especially how she had felt threaten by his long-term female friend he lived with) she comes across to me as the type of person that would want to know. Just saying, from my impressions of what he has written about her. But, getting off him the point can be made of any BS of the ones that don't tell. If they have asked questions. If they have suspicion. If they have been labeled "jealous" and "unreasonable" "threatened"- I make the correlation that they would be the type that would want to know. Many WS take into account their moral and ethical values (which can't be trusted much since they are here to begin with) and make their decisions based on those beliefs. They don't take into account the values of their spouses. They see pain and want to avoid it. Understandable. Even though many say that the pain is just a coating. A surface. What is beneath is the true meat. The rights of a person to make informed decisions on their life. That doesn't even take into account the breaking of the vows. That doesn't even take into account that one partner enjoys the vows of fidelity with a faithful partner while the other gets to stay married and has broken them without the other having a right in a decision to stay in that marriage. The marriage is one sided. A cage. IMO Easily solved. Ask a hypothetical question of the BS. "So and so at the office cheated on his wife. blah blah blah. Would you want to know that?"

Anyways, if the mother was abused by the grandfather that may go a long way in explaining her drug use. My sister-in-law had the same issues due to the stepfather. As was the half brother-in-law that turned pedophile to follow in his father's footsteps.

But because is it does one mean less then the other?

Yes, to me. Because of promises made and wedding vows. Guess that is a good thing that I am now really taking stock in my word and promises. I promised in front of a judge to be faithful. The grandfather didn't make a vow, promise or agreement. Yeah, it should be a societal/ethical/moral agreement to not abuse your grand-daughter. Not cheating with a married person or in your marriage is a societal/ethical/agreement here as well. Unless you live in a society that makes cheating acceptable. To tell you the truth if what a wayward is working to in changing their marriage or life is based off of manipulation and lying (IMO keeping a caged bird) as a foundation then what are they bothering for? In any sense how can that be good or right? The words themselves are unjust-lie manipulate.

Honestly I don't see how FF situation is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Which is confess or not and the reason why. The same things apply to any wayward that chooses to not tell. Again, ask the betrayed what their definition of honesty, marriage, wedding vows, values, beliefs, trust is and there is the answer. If they say what they don't know will not hurt them and if someone screws up and others shouldn't pay the price-well there you go. If they say truth and no lies-well there you go.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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idiotic ( new member #57566) posted at 12:12 PM on Saturday, March 10th, 2018

Tell the truth!!!

The “darkness” you are feeling inside will bleed through to your interactions and body language. Those that you love the most and want to protect will only see a monster they don’t understand unless you confess and show them you are more. I know that sounds horrifying but you keeping it from them is just a sign of you being selfish.

You need to rip off the bandaid before that cut turns into an infected wound....

As Spokenfire said, your spouse will most likely detect something being off.

Your ability to get to the position of committing the act that brought you here is what you need to explore.

What is broken inside you, what has caused the anxiety and depression because if I were to guess that screen name fit your life prior to this assault on your wife.

Assault is a painful word when you haven’t taken the time to consider the pain you have caused due to your disregard of your family’s feelings but you need to hear it. Early on and occasionally still i shutter when this type of word is/ was associated with my A behavior.

IMO, As a grown adult with the responsibility of raising children any thing other than casual drinking is a signal that you are medicating yourself to treat some issues that you can’t or won’t look at in an effort to make real change.

I haven’t touched a drink or a drug in over a year... my line of site to “my ugliness”has never been clearer but even still I am struggling with who I am and All the WHYS, not just in what caused my A but also what caused me to be the selfish person I was for years prior. When I drank I could suppress the need to explore because I was only conscious of about 25% of my reality as a person and my emotions and abilities to process them as an adult.

People drink to hide, they workaholics to hide, any addiction is a prescription to mask and not have to see Who you are and WHY this is acceptable!

Tell the truth to your wife first and you will be forced to tell yourself all the things you’ve been running from.

I give you credit for being here and starting the process of sharing.

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EvolvingSoul ( member #29972) posted at 6:33 AM on Sunday, March 11th, 2018

ff4152

Before diagnosing personality traits in others, I would ask you to take a look at your own. Why do you seem so hell bent on pushing your narrative? What is driving your incessant need to be right? During this dialog of ours, you've managed to call me and like minded thinkers, immoral. You've likened my decision to murder, child molestation and slavery. IMO, there is no disconnect in thinking murder, pedophilia, slavery etc. as objectionable while feeling that not confessing as being the correct option.

Cognitive dissonance is not a personality trait. It's just the state of simultaneously holding contradictory beliefs or ideas or values and the mental distress that causes when you're confronted with it. Sometimes the distress is bad enough that we're willing to alter our values or beliefs to relieve it.

I know your wife isn't a literal slave. She's not property that you bought and if she wanted to leave she could. But hiding a truth from her that you fear may result in her leaving does remove her autonomy to choose for herself and so it is a form of emotional enslavement. The days of her life are limited and you are forcing her to spend them without the critical knowledge she needs to make a decision about how and with whom she will share them. That's the contradiction: The belief that it's wrong to deny someone the basic human right of autonomy while believing that removing their autonomy without their knowledge is for their benefit and therefore right. Unless you don't believe that autonomy is a basic human right. I don't think that is the case but if it is just disregard the rest of this post.

A large majority of BS's that have weighed in on the many times this topic has been discussed on SI have said they would want to know, but you're citing the small percentage who have said they'd rather have remained in ignorance as a justification for keeping your wife that way. That is a red flag.

Also, when you first came to SI, you said you had ended your affair because the anxiety that the risk of being caught was causing you was becoming unmanageable. You said you couldn't be honest with your wife because then it would be the end of the relationship. As people have challenged you, the reason for not being honest has changed from something that was selfish (you'd be alone) to something that now seems selfless (saving her from pain) and can be maintained indefinitely. That is another red flag.

Confronted with the contradictions, instead of getting curious about whether it might be true, that you might actually be experiencing cognitive dissonance, you are instead going on the attack against the person who raised the question as to whether or not you were. That is a third red flag.

I hope you will explore this further, because cognitive dissonance is an underpinning of Wayward thinking. For me it started as a kid and by the time I was an adult I had become a pretty adept practitioner of this kind of "pretzel logic". Given what you dealt with growing up, it's likely that you did too. It works great as coping mechanism for dealing with heinous shit in the short term, but over the long term and when dealing with the people with whom we long for connection, it's destructive. Becoming critically aware that it's happening is the only shot you have of overcoming it.

anxietydepressio,

I'm sorry if this back and forth scared you off. It seems like you are pretty heavily in the grip of fear. Fear is not a great basis for decision making. Integrity is a better bet. Integrity is doing what is right instead of what is easy, or comfortable, or fast. Owning what you did, finding remorse, repairing the damage and figuring out what brain wiring allowed you to do what you did in the first place is the path of real healing. You living in a prison of fear and her living in a prison of ignorance helps no one. I urge you to choose integrity.

Proceed with conviction and valor.

Best to you from this EvolvingSoul.

Me: WS (64)Him: Shards (59)D-day: June 6, 2010Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

We’re going to make it.

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 8:04 PM on Sunday, March 11th, 2018

All I did was ask a question about if his inability to forgive himself and others(thus how can he expect anyone else to have forgiveness) and the need for control might have any reason as to why he wasn't telling on top of the one he has stated multiple times about her recent past trauma. Just some food for thought. Because I am certain those same things might apply to other waywards that haven't told.

But I agree, he has moved on from this is too much for her right now. To, this is my burden to bear and she should never experience this pain I chose to cause and should be spared. I just question if that mindset is really selfless. Or is it still selfish? Like a parent that keeps bailing their child out of bad situations. Are they doing it to save the child or are they doing it to spare their own guilt and pain of seeing that person suffer?

I just ask that any WS remove yourself from how you would handle the situation based on your ability to deal with trauma and conflict and really see how the BS could handle and persevere.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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silverhopes ( member #32753) posted at 8:20 PM on Sunday, March 11th, 2018

Anxietydepressio:

This here:

Being quite trashed myself I let her in. And ended up passing in my bed. When I woke up I realized she was in bed with me. And she was clearly interested in having sex with mean. I said no and asked her to leave. I don’t know if she tried anything with me while I was passed/blacked out.

...Says to me that this wasn't a ONS. This was a sexual assault.

You were passed out. You couldn't consent. And when you regained consciousness, you said no and asked her to leave. On top of that, you don't have the whole story, you have no idea if she did anything to you, and she's threatened to ruin your career if you tell.

Your shame and self-blame is very common for survivors of sexual assault.

Yes, please, tell your wife. Not just so that she'll know that this other woman put both your healths at risk, but also so she can support you. But, might I suggest, tell her during therapy? That way your IC can act as somewhat of a mediator. I'm worried your wife might blame you for it - she might say you were drunk and opened the door to her. Or believe the damaging social attitude that men can't be assaulted. You can, and you have been. I hope your wife will be able to understand - you didn't consent. It is NOT your fault.

You also might consider going to the police.

I am so sorry this happened to you.

ETA: This:

Then that evening she kept handing me drinks while we were out with others. Everyone one was drinking and I knew I had too many.

So she plied you with alcohol. And if she was handing you the drinks directly, what's to say she didn't slip something into them? You went up alone, clearly inebriated, to an area where you were isolated, and she showed up shortly afterward. It sounds like she set this up. Please, report this woman.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:24 PM, March 11th (Sunday)]

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

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Lucky77 ( member #61337) posted at 11:10 PM on Monday, March 12th, 2018

This thread has me tied up in knots for two reasons. AD, the original poster is in dire need of help and is so distraught. Secondly the tenor of the discourse has gotten so intense I find it shocking.

Evolving Soul do you think that Infidelity is the ultimate betrayal? The ultimate trauma? Is there nothing worse and nothing else rivals it? As you know I haven't told yet either. I am inclined to put Infidelity in the same bucket as other major life trauma and call them simply huge, major life trauma. Is infidelity worse than cancer or other terminal illness? Death of a child or a spouse?

This notion that the WS is relegated to an incomplete life (pseudo slave??) if they are not fully told all the details of the A I feel is not an absolute black and white topic. You say

A large majority of BS's that have weighed in on the many times this topic has been discussed on SI have said they would want to know, but you're citing the small percentage who have said they'd rather have remained in ignorance as a justification for keeping your wife that way. That is a red flag.

I don't think the percentage is that small. I think it may be small but it is still significant

[This message edited by Lucky77 at 5:52 PM, March 12th (Monday)]

WS
1 year PA/ 2 Yr EA
Oh the depths of the betrayal

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 12:19 AM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

Evolving soul hasn't responded but I will. Because I support everything said by evolving soul. I would pay attention to someone that has been working on this for 8 years compared to a new wayward still stuck their own issues and bad coping skills subjected to wayward decision making.

I think infidelity is major trauma. It doesn't have to be the ultimate. It is enough by itself. People kill because of it. Lives change because of it. People commit suicide over it. Why wouldn't it be up there with cancer, death of a loved one, murder, and rape? Every single one of the things mentioned come with their own sets of questions and things to heal from. I know from my wife's mouth that the pain she felt was worse than her childhood traumas. At one point worse than finding her little sister dead with a shotgun in her mouth. So, please don't belittle what we waywards have done. Personally I think it does your BS a huge disgrace to judge what that trauma is if you haven't experienced it yourself. Even if you have-who are you to judge their pain if your experience was easier than others? I would never presume to discredit what my wife labeled as emotional rape. I think Evolving soul is absolutely right to hold up the accepted moral rights of a person to their life as larger than life sign because that is what this is all about. Any person (over many cultures even) to have control over their own life and decisions. Being informed and choosing their own paths without manipulation and lies. I agree with her that the ones that don't want that. That avoid the truth and conflict have their own issues and demons making them far from healthy individuals to begin with. Do those people exist? Yes. There are those that say what they don't know will not kill them. Question is, is that your BS? How do you know? What gives you the right to decide that for your spouse? I would always question what a wayward would say is morally right or acceptable since by definition we were all cheaters/liar/manipulators that took the easy, cowardly, dysfunctional, controlling, cruel, conflict avoidant, self indulgent, and more if I spent time to put it in perspective low road in our selfishness and entitlement.

[This message edited by Zugzwang at 6:21 PM, March 12th (Monday)]

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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DaddyDom ( member #56960) posted at 3:03 AM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

...do you think that Infidelity is the ultimate betrayal? The ultimate trauma? Is there nothing worse and nothing else rivals it? As you know I haven't told yet either. I am inclined to put Infidelity in the same bucket as other major life trauma and call them simply huge, major life trauma. Is infidelity worse than cancer or other terminal illness? Death of a child or a spouse?

For what it is worth, while it would be folly to define any one thing as "the ultimate trauma", can we agree that infidelity is major life event? I personally subscribe to the belief that all pain (and all trauma) is valid and equal. However infidelity is one of those trauma's that just seems to try so very hard to go above and beyond in terms of tragedy. For example, when we lose someone we love, such as a parent or a child, the loss is not usually associated with a personal attack or betrayal. Your loved one likely didn't die as a result of them rejecting you. Their death does not usually represent a betrayal of your relationship. Perhaps their death might be due to a lack of love for themselves (e.g. death by drug overdose, suicide) but again, this is not a personal attack on you. A physical injury or illness may land you in the hospital or even cause the loss of a limb or life. Cancer doesn't lie and gas-light you first however. Physical injuries don't promise to love you or have your back. These things do not take away your personal choice. If someone dies, you might care, you might not care, you might want to die yourself, or you might be bursting at the seams to get the inheritance. But you get to feel whatever it is you feel based on the truth of the situation.

For example, having cancer is an awful and traumatic event all on its own. How you respond to that event is your choice. You may want to try every option available to save your life. You may want to simply go through your bucket list with your loved ones before you pass. But suppose your doctor lies to you? What if he doesn't tell you that you have cancer, even though he knows? What if having that knowledge took away choices that could have saved your life? What if it took away your choices to die in the way that makes sense to you? Took away your ability to wrap up your debts and say goodbye to loved ones? Why does he get the right to make that decision for you, even if he truly believes that not knowing is what is best for you? Why is that his call? It is not. Sure, you'd get to live in ignorance of the fact that you have cancer. Do you think that's his call to make?

Infidelity on the other hand IS a betrayal. It involves lies and deceit and gas-lighting. It involves personal relationships, and being stabbed in the back by someone who is supposed to have your back. It is someone putting themselves and their own needs above everyone else's needs. It is them protecting their own ass at the cost of your own.

Imagine this. Let's say you have a son (I'm not sure if you do, but work with me here). Through the magic of SI, you and I become good best friends, inseparable, like two peas in a pod. We are together all the time, do everything together, share our innermost secrets and dreams and ideas. No one could be closer. - One day, you come home to find your son missing. You call the police, the hospitals, setup a reward... nothing. I am by your side every step of the way. I help comb the woods near your home. I call you 20 times a day to see how you are. You cry on my shoulder. We both suffer at this personal loss. And your son is gone for years, with no contact, no leads. We talk about him every day. You miss him more than life. I tell you how much I care, about him, about you. You tell me, "Thank God for you, I'd have never been able to survive this without your support".

Now, imagine that I admitted that I was the one who kidnapped him. I was the one who lied to you. I was the one who pretended to be your friend the whole time. I was the one who walked around with you looking for him, the whole time knowing you would never find him because he was in my basement. You cried on my shoulder. You lauded my support and friendship through this tragedy. All of the pain and loss and sorrow you suffered, and the person responsible for ALL OF IT was right next to you, acting like your best friend all along. Seriously, it's all okay now, because I feel badly about it.

Now, imagine that instead, I decided to NOT tell you. Because it would hurt you to know that I wasn't who I claimed to be. I'm not worried about ME of course, I'm changed, I'm a new man, right? I feel remorse for what I did. I'm becoming a better person. And you, you lucky person you, you still get to be my best friend, the one you trust, the one you love, the one you rely on.

When a wayward decides to not tell their spouse what they did, they continue to lie. They continue to make decisions for someone else that they themselves hurt and betrayed, and they do so to their own benefit. Like the doctor that didn't tell you have cancer, because it's what HE thinks is best for YOU, not telling your spouse what you did removes their choice from them. Will that knowledge only hurt your spouse? Maybe. But it is amazing how the WS gets to make all these choices for everyone else. They get to decide that it was okay to have an affair. And then they get to decide that it's okay not to tell. And they get to decide that their spouse gets to go own loving them, trusting them, believing in them and sleeping with them, while they continue to lie to them for a lifetime.

This notion that the WS is relegated to an incomplete life (pseudo slave??) if they are not fully told all the details of the A I feel is not an absolute black and white topic.

I did not tell. I added to my wife's suffering by making her find out on her own, by reading things I wrote to the AP that no spouse should ever have to see. But if she had not found out, then who would the slave be? Not me. She would be. A slave to me, to my whims, my lies, my needs and my abuse of her. I'd get to abuse her and she would get to be my slave. Seems black and white to me.

As someone whose wife knows however, who went through D-day and all the pain and all the recovery for the past year and a half, I can tell you that I don't feel like a slave at all. I feel free. I feel that our relationship is stronger, more honest, more authentic. I can tell her anything now, and she can tell me anything. We survived this together, and it was HER CHOICE to stay, as long as I keep doing the work, and as long as it continues to be a partnership that compliments both our lives. I put her first, not because I'm her slave, because it is the right thing to do, and because it is what someone with dignity and self-respect does when they have hurt someone they love. Trust me when I tell you, she sacrifices for me all the time. In fact, she has suffered more and sacrificed more than I ever will, and much of that was for my benefit. I may not deserve it, but she does it because she sees me putting in the work and earning her love and respect back.

I'm going to go ahead and point out the elephant in the room however, the wayward elephant. These topics, these questions... are all prime examples of wayward thinking, just desperate attempts to deflect attention from the wayward and seek approval instead. It is cowardly and selfish behavior at its core. That is not a personal attack on anyone, I speak from experience because I did the same exact things! Is the WS relegated to a life of being slave? Are you kidding me? Are we suggesting anyone should feel sorry for the poor WS? How unfair that they cheated, lied, betrayed, and OMG they have to face consequences for the actions??!! How unfair! Puh-lease... Is a murderer relegated to a life of prison just because he killed someone? YES.

Do you see what is being asked here? "Is it REALLY that awful? Isn't it UNFAIR to the WS to be a slave?" These are questions meant to deflect blame from the WS, meant to seek out sympathy for the WS, attempts to say, "Pet me and tell me I'm good boy", attempts to put the WS into what they think is a "good light" by pretending that feeling badly about what they did makes it all okay. They think it is somehow noble for them to continue the most abusive behavior they have ever shown and yet label it as being kind and considerate to their spouse! It is all part and parcel of the same damn lies and justifications they told themselves in the first place so they could consider the affair okay. Selfish, selfish, selfish, and still trying to make it all go away, and not face the real consequences.

It is NOT OKAY. It will NEVER BE OKAY. By not telling your spouse, you are STILL LYING and STILL making decisions for your spouse and STILL controlling the outcomes, and as a special added bonus, the only consequences the WS need face is the guilt. That's it. You don't have to face your wife's pain. You don't have to see the disappointment and lack of trust in your kids faces. You don't have to face being kicked out and divorced. You don't have to face years and years of roller-coaster emotions, your spouse having mind-movies and unable to touch you because they can't look at you without seeing the AP, hearing them wish they had a revenge affair, having them panic every time they don't know where you are, and the constant triggers that send them into tears and knowing that all of these things are due to your selfishness and cowardice and cold-heartedness. No, you just get the guilt. Today and every day, the lie continues, and as long as the lie continues, the WS continues to be an abuser, the BS the abused. There is nothing okay about being a liar. Period.

Me: WS
BS: ISurvivedSoFar
D-Day Nov '16
Status: Reconciling
"I am floored by the amount of grace and love she has shown me in choosing to stay and fight for our marriage. I took everything from her, and yet she chose to forgive me."

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Lucky77 ( member #61337) posted at 11:59 AM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

I have a lot to learn and a high level of respect for the "Do Tell" camp. I get it. I hear it. I enjoy the perspective and it helps me.

For me though, adding to my W's life's crap piles she's been handed I don't see adding this one. She's had too many already.

I wish I felt there was openness on this board to this dissenting opinion. That it's a personal choice. This topic seems to have been settled. It makes me want to close off from those that are trying to teach me.

WS
1 year PA/ 2 Yr EA
Oh the depths of the betrayal

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silverhopes ( member #32753) posted at 12:21 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

You guys,

I get that this thread has become a rather heated debate about whether you should or shouldn't tell, which is an important discussion to be had.

However, this thread isn't here for that. This thread is here to support AD.

Please reread his posts. Does it sound to anyone else here like this was sexual assault, rather than a ONS?

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam.

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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 12:48 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

I am open to that. I am ashamed to say that if a female wayward came here with that to say, I would have said assault. She was slipped something. I do side on the "possible more to tell" than what is said because we have had male waywards tell the same story only to have it change over time because they began to TT. I will give the benefit of the doubt because he seems pretty regretful to me.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



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WalkinOnEggshelz ( member #29447) posted at 12:59 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

I wish I felt there was openness on this board to this dissenting opinion. That it's a personal choice. This topic seems to have been settled. It makes me want to close off from those that are trying to teach me.

Can you see that your personal choice is stripping your spouse of making her own personal choice? You are making a unilateral decision under the guise of protection without giving her a choice.

I think if more people that didn’t tell owned the fact that they were making this colossal unilateral decision these camps that you talk about might seem somewhat less segregated. It’s the defensiveness of this position that making such a big decision for an adult that I believe sets people off.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:00 AM, March 13th (Tuesday)]

If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

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Lucky77 ( member #61337) posted at 1:43 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

Hi Walkingoneggshelz,

I do see that, yes. Someday I may tell. I stay here to process all this. I'm learning so much.

My wife's a survivor of childhood molestation and cancer and is now living with a terminal chronic illness and joblessness. Over our 3 decades she's had ample occasion to see my flaws and my ineptitude. I just don't see that puking this in her lap at this moment makes good sense. She's got enough on her plate. Maybe some day.

WS
1 year PA/ 2 Yr EA
Oh the depths of the betrayal

posts: 331   ·   registered: Nov. 7th, 2017
id 8114666
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WalkinOnEggshelz ( member #29447) posted at 2:44 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

If you see that, then why be defensive about your decision? Why not say “I understand that I am making a selfish decision at this time”.

If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

posts: 16686   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2010   ·   location: Anywhere and everywhere
id 8114707
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Lucky77 ( member #61337) posted at 2:48 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

Hi Walkingoneggshelz,

As you say.....I am making a selfish decision at this time.

DaddyDom,

From the rules of the Wayward Board ...

We ask that anyone participating be respectful and non-judgemental.

Are you judging me?

It is NOT OKAY. It will NEVER BE OKAY. By not telling your spouse, you are STILL LYING and STILL making decisions for your spouse and STILL controlling the outcomes

WS
1 year PA/ 2 Yr EA
Oh the depths of the betrayal

posts: 331   ·   registered: Nov. 7th, 2017
id 8114710
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trainedmonkey ( new member #62021) posted at 4:48 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

WS Only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:08 PM, March 13th (Tuesday)]

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DaddyDom ( member #56960) posted at 6:39 PM on Tuesday, March 13th, 2018

Lucky77,

I'm going to go ahead and point out the elephant in the room however, the wayward elephant. These topics, these questions... are all prime examples of wayward thinking, just desperate attempts to deflect attention from the wayward and seek approval instead. It is cowardly and selfish behavior at its core. That is not a personal attack on anyone, I speak from experience because I did the same exact things!

There is a difference between judging someone, and giving them a 2x4 based on my own personal experience and having done the same stupid, selfish things. Stating what you are doing, when you are in fact doing it, is a fact, not a judgment. It is one WS calling out another WS on their bullshit. I did all the same things you did, we all did. And me doing those things, and not being able to admit to and own them, caused continued damage to the relationship and to my spouse. I gain nothing from "judging you". My desire here is to help you to get out of wayward mindset and see how your thoughts and actions are still exactly as they were during the affair. That is what the people here did for me, and again, same as you, I got all defensive and pissed and said that everyone was attacking and judging me. They weren't. They were handing me brutal honesty and I was just still too self-absorbed and playing the victim to accept it. My stubborness damn near cost me my marriage.

You betrayed, you lied, you covered it up, and you didn't tell. Fact, fact, fact, fact. And now you are getting defensive about it as well. (Deflect/Project/Blame-shift). And yet, read the quote above, as well as the rest of the post, and you might notice that I referenced the fact I did the exact same things! We all did, that's why we're waywards! You might also notice that I also used words such as "we" or "wayward" in several places, indicating that I'm referencing or talking about ALL waywards in general. And yet you still took it personally. (Victim/Poor me)

Seriously... Me, Zug, EV, Idiotic... just the people listed on this page alone... ALL have spouses who know what we did. We are ALL liars. ALL cheaters. ALL got defensive, minimized, compartmentalized, justified, were selfish, deflected, blame-shifted, projected... and ALL of us had to face the cold ugly truths about ourselves, what we did, and how awful we were to our spouses, our families and to ourselves. We all look at our spouses, and see someone looking back who knows exactly what we did to them, and who have to make the decision to stay or go every single day of their lives based on the truth of who we really are and what we really did. We all have to look at ourselves in the mirror and face the fact that the person we see looking back at us, did these things, that we were that self-absorbed person who did those things, and OWN it.

Do you understand? We are all doing the hard work every day of trying to make up for awful things we did to our spouses and families. We are dealing with the consequences of what we did, ALL the consequences, not just the ones we choose to. We've all been where you are.

I'm sorry that your wife is having so many challenges in life right now, with her health, with her work, with everything. I truly am, and both you and she have my heart and my sympathy for that. But so what? Do you think our spouses were in the perfect spot in life to get cheated on? My wife was dealing with having lost a job that we moved across the country for, and to get a new job she had to move out of the house and live alone without her husband and family in order to be where the new jobs was, to be the rock and the provider as well as several other "Life changing" issues at the time. And how was she rewarded by me for her sacrifice to keep the family afloat? Her asshole husband cheated on her, lied to her, and brought his new gf home to meet the kids! A tad inconvenient, don't you agree? You say that you don't want to put more stuff into your wife's lap right now by confessing, yet that same, basic human concern seemed to be missing when you decided to have an affair. It was okay to cheat on her when she was going through hard times, but not okay to confess to it. So now she has CSA, cancer, job loss, and on top of that, was cheated on and is still being lied to. Sorry if that's brutal, but those are the facts. And again, same shit I did to my wife, so I'm not judging, I'm telling you truth as someone who has walked in your shoes.

Everyone here is giving you the best advice we can possibly give you. Everyone's goal is to help you save both your marriage and yourself. There is nothing to be gained by attacking you, and everything to be gained by helping you get out of your own head and giving you the tools and information you need to grow in both your personal life and your relationship.

I told my wife the other day that the worst future I can possibly imagine for myself would be a future where I never pulled my head out of my own ass and changed. A life where I still lived as a self-absorbed, frightened, angry, lonely victim, incapable of loving myself or truly loving anyone else, a danger to myself and to everyone that dares to care about me. There I was thinking I was such a great guy who just did this "one dumb thing" and that everything would be okay since no one knew and I was never going to do that thing again. I was so full of shit it's not even funny. I was still broken, still lying, and let's be honest, even if I wasn't still cheating, I was still hurting my family and myself. She deserved better. We all did.

I do care about you Lucky77 and want to help you, so if you want to be pissed at me for being brutally honest, go for it, my feelings aren't hurt. I know who I am and I'm proud of who I am today, flaws and all, and I'm living my truth. My wife knows I cheated. She hates it, she will never ever be okay with it, and it will always be part of our history whether she chooses to stay with me or not. But she knows it, and is making her own decisions based on that knowledge. Now we are in the arena together. I hope one day you realize that giving her back her own dignity and choice is exactly what will give you back your own. But as you said, you are making a selfish decision at this time. Your words, not mine.

[This message edited by DaddyDom at 9:52 PM, March 13th (Tuesday)]

Me: WS
BS: ISurvivedSoFar
D-Day Nov '16
Status: Reconciling
"I am floored by the amount of grace and love she has shown me in choosing to stay and fight for our marriage. I took everything from her, and yet she chose to forgive me."

posts: 1447   ·   registered: Jan. 18th, 2017
id 8114903
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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 1:28 AM on Thursday, March 15th, 2018

Another thing that I though about when telling, yes even with that TT. I reaped the benefits of a faithful companion. I reaped the benefits of someone that loved me unconditional and kept our wedding vows. That just isn't fair. The marriage was one sided. All on my side. How could I move forward reaping benefits that she didn't have in the same marriage. She deserved that choice. To choose to go or stay. They all do. Pain is pain and it hurts like Hell. If a wayward doesn't think this so horrible on the scale of death, murder, and rape- then telling should be no big deal. Right? I mean it isn't like the pain in their eyes isn't going to kill their BS. It is just going to kill how their BS looks at them.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



posts: 4938   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2013
id 8116099
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Zugzwang ( member #39069) posted at 9:27 PM on Thursday, March 15th, 2018

But so what? Do you think our spouses were in the perfect spot in life to get cheated on?

My wife's mother was dying of cancer. Her grandmother died (who helped raise her) right after Dday. During the affair she was in the hospital. Not once did I go back home with my wife for support. We had moved 2hrs away from family, home, friends, my wife's volunteer work, and job while I decided to have my affair. My wife had a toddler and one year old at home to care for alone with no support. She was still dealing with her own childhood issues. The suicide of her little sister. Her mother nagging her about disowning her pedophile half brother. On top of that, my wife was traveling back and forth helping to care for her sister's two boys. All the while taking care of my selfish ass and our family. There is never a good time. That is just it. We fucked them over, and all the while the people around us have their own burdens in life. Yet, we felt entitled to take them for granted and take advantage of them. No BS is in the perfect spot to get cheated on and told. You just do it. I would think it would suck if I got better and then someone comes in...just when things got good and let me know my marriage has been a lie. It isn't about when it is- it is about the fact that you did it.

"Nothing in this world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty." Teddy Roosevelt
D-day 9-4-12 Me;WS



posts: 4938   ·   registered: Apr. 23rd, 2013
id 8116663
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