SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am fairly new to this site and I have heard a lot of WS' doing 2x4'ing. What exactly is that please?

thanks

It means they are going to hit you with a 2X4 - slang for "wake up" here is "Harsh reality". They are giving you a hard thing to think about because you aren't getting "it". So they are hitting you over the head with it.

And there is definitely a right/wrong way to go about it.

If there is a wrong way or it is done wrong, then I would think the mods would step in. IMO some people are just too sensitive to face the truth in general which is why we are usually here to begin with and chose infidelity as a coping skill. I also think many new WS come here to commiserate and look to fill the void that the AP left while they complain about stuff they would have done with the AP. It takes all types to make this site work. Some are there for moral support. Some hold up mirrors and challenge people to go outside their comfort zones. Some call BS when they see it. All are here to get you to keep moving forward and embrace changing who you are. Most know the truths about infidelity and will give it to you straight if you stray (go off into Unicorn land with the I/affair am/is unique and special show), blameshift, or gaslight. Some may not react well to 2x4's. Other's are thankful for the hit over the head. Some aren't ready to be adults and change by developing tougher skins and some still want kid gloves. Like I said, it takes all types. We have all types.

The advice, statements, and challenges I give are usually 2x4s. I don't use kid gloves because I think we have been acting like immature children long enough. That last thing I want to do is enable faulty thinking and behaviors. I don't usually sweeten advice and pat people on the hand because that was my old KISA self. That type of behavior is reserved for my wife and family. On occasion I will when I see someone really working on facing themselves and owning it. DaddyDom is really good at delivering his 2x4s in a more tactful manner than I.

It means what people say to you will hurt so much it will FEEL like being hit with a 2x4 piece of lumber. I LOATHE 2x4's and usually beg people here to be nice to me when I ask for help. Being "harsh" isn't helpful to me anymore. Maybe in the beginning yes but not now. I beat myself up plenty so I don't need anymore of it.

[This message edited by Root at 2:39 PM, May 17th (Thursday)]

Zugs,

Sometimes the tact is lost on people and the point doesn't get through.

I was one of them.

The problem with 2x4ing someone, especially newbies, is the one swinging the 2x4 seems to have forgotten what it’s like to be in their shoes. It’s easy to stand on the pillar of righteous morality some years removed from DDay. It’s easy to forget how horrified and awful many of us WS felt in those early days. The fact remeins, we are ALL WS and have walked the same path at one time or another. IMO, it’s better and certainly more helpful to make this a place where they feel safe to talk and work out their problems. I’m certainly not suggesting giving them a pass but holding someone’s feet to the fire, especially in the early days, is oftentimes counterproductive.

@ZugZwang, the only reason I'm still here is because of some your 2x4's. Both kinds are needed. I could still use some in fact. So thank you for those.

@sorrowfulmate - Some of us have thicker skulls. I still remember the day Zug told me, "Do you realize that your wife trusts the people on SI, complete strangers, more than she trusts you right now? Because none of us ever betrayed her." I about fell out of my chair. He was right. He's still right.

@root - It's not about how much we beat ourselves up, it's about why. Usually, I find that the 2x4's are hurled at me when I'm beating myself up over one thing but clearer headed people can see the bigger picture and point it out to me.

@FF - I'm not sure that people forget what it is like to be a new person here, but I do agree that sometimes the welcome messages can be very harsh. Often it's a matter of how people walk in the door. Someone who walks in and says, "I fucked up, I need help" gets a different response than the person who walks in saying, "My wife caught me banging the babysitter, why is she making such a big deal about it?". The other problem is that we often relate what we write to our own current situations. For example, if someone on SI just got caught TT'ing, and then someone new comes on and talks about TT'ing their spouse, they are likely to get a tirade from the person who just got caught TT'ing and suffered the consequences. It's not anger, it's a warning from someone who just went through that and wants to save another the pain.

@lordtennyson74 - You are going to get a lot of advice here, some of it kind, some of it harsh. My only advice to you at this point is to take both to heart. Usually, I find that the more harsh the responses are, the more I need to hear them. When I find myself getting defensive, it usually means I've got a bug up my ass somewhere and I'm just not aware of it. Bear in mind, the people here don't know you, and so if they are harsh, there is probably a reason. Otherwise, why would they even bother writing to you? Every single WS here has been in some form of your shoes, and has made similar bad choices and had similar bad thinking. So if you get a 2x4, thank them, and take it or leave it as needed.

Good luck

It’s easy to stand on the pillar of righteous morality some years removed from DDay.

Makes me wonder why you would view it that way. Yes, perhaps I can forget how hurt I felt which I credit to getting it and becoming more remorseful than regretful. Honestly, I remember little of the pain but do remember the disgust. No ones words could have bothered me one iota in comparison to my own to myself or my BS. So, yes I can see the disconnect as to why one would get so bothered over a strangers opinions. So pain in the form of how I felt is far removed since the days of owning it and getting it. It isn't from a pillar righteous morality, it is from remorse and years out from the pain being all about me. Been there and done that. Walked through the same fire as the rest of you. Now, if a BS said that without the experience of being a WS I might agree that advice and challenging like I do came from righteous morality. I think the difference in your view is that I owned who I was and have forgiven myself. I can see how someone that hasn't reached that point would view those that have as having "righteous morality" when they are still not "owning" and "forgiving" themselves when they point out things. So, I would probably not focus on who that WS is, but why I felt that way. I would ask myself, "What am I lacking that I need to work on"?

Sorrowfulmate You have a point. You and I have been here about the same amount of time. What worked on me, didn't work for you. Hence why it takes all types for this site. If we all posted the same, what would be the point of the site. It may as well be run by one person.

If the posting is too harsh or too real. The poster just has to say to a particular poster. Don't post. I don't like the approach.

Point made often though. If it triggers you. It is usually something you need to work on. If you get an emotion from it. Explore why.

I think it comes down to what do you want to do? Hit someone with a 2x4 or hand them a first aid kit? I much prefer repairing wounds rather than beating them to death.

If I felt like getting a 2x4 from someone that has been in my shoes is "beating to death" I would wonder why I react that way. Why is reality checks beating to death? What is band aids? Is it really the messenger or the delivery or the person that is getting it might be too sensitive to any criticism? I mean really, why are 2x4s from strangers interpreted as "beating to death"?

Beating to death as in leaving and not coming back for fear of more ‘’reality checks’.

Band aids cover tender open wounds so that they can heal properly and not get infected while the scab forms. Ripping the band aids off is always painful, no doubt, but it’s not a 2x4. You know they even make band aids these days with neosporin in them to further help the wound heal!? Amazing, I know.

How do we know they leave?

Band aides around here were considered bad, just covers up the problem like rug sweeping. Cleaning out the wound is better.

But, there is a point if what strangers say is that important or affects someone so much, there are more important issues do deal with.

Lt74,

Most of the 2x4’s are meant to help, those WS who don't come back after a2x4 was delivered to them, are not up to the task of facing what they’ve done. Some have a problem with rug sweeping or blame shifting, I did that initially, received several well deserved 2x4’s and came back for more, because I needed more. You have to want to fix yourself and take the constructive criticism with the good advice to continue on here.

I’ve noticed many WS who no longer return, one would hope they found the help they needed, or maybe chose to ignore their problems. I hope you stick around, 2x4’s and all and get the help you need. Have you told your wife yet about your A?

Clearly there are issues to deal with. We waywards didn’t end up bc we were leading morally decent lives rather, immorally disturbing lives. The realization of that is mind altering. Some are in so deep they have no idea they’ve sacrificed their morals. Some, like me, find themselves in a psychiatric hospital bc they’ve lost the ability to function. They don’t want to breath. They don’t want to live. They aren’t strong enough to grab that swinging 2x 4. You want me to question why an internet person means that much... here’s your answer. You don’t. You don’t mean anything to me. I don’t let you bother me bc that will only give you satisfaction.

Ever read the Celestine prophecy? I think you’re the second or third insight. I can’t remember but you steal other people’s energy when you swing your 2 x 4 and you stand behind your actions as ‘I’m just giving hard truths’. You know as well as I do that for some reason you enjoy swinging. Just as I enjoy giving the bandaids. If you really want to pull apart the philosophical/psychology of it, I would challenge you to look into yourself and figure out why you’re so comfortable swinging. You seem to be quick reality checks here on newbs posts. Are you possibly competing with other waywards to see who has the most recovery knowledge? Do you care that little about people that are in their weakest life moments that you can’t show them kindness even through ‘just the internet’? And for someone who says ‘it’s just the internet’ you seem to spend a decent amount of time here, so you must think it important and enjoy Giving your input, or 2x 4’s. Why is it easier or most natural for you to hit waywards where it hurts most? Is it possibly bc you’re really still mad at yourself for having an A so the hitting with 2x4s is a form of punishing yourself? Or I s it possible that swinging 2x4’s replaced your past devious affair behavior? I don’t know. Only you can answer this. What I do know is that you definitely get some reinforcement (positive or negative, only you can answer) out of your reality checks or you wouldn’t keep doing it. Behaviors continue bc of reinforcement and rewards. I hope we waywards can agree to that fact especially when applied to affairs.

This is about as 2x4 as I can get. I tried to be as tough in my approach as I could bc that’s how you said you learn best. Maybe that’s why you do it? If so, do you think more people respond better with tough love? You said at home you are gentle and compassionate. Why are you only stern here? Omg. I have to stop philosophizing and we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, as I think likely on others too but I don’t want to be here all night. You do you zig. ✌🏻

Zug

Makes me wonder why you would view it that way.

Its fairly simple; obviously speaking from personal experience, WS have recently called me immoral, disingenuous, selfish etc. because I have not confessed. If I understood your post correctly, I have also not "owned" what I did (I do agree with the not forgiving part). At least from my POV, thats quite hypocritical coming from most other WS. I was not caught; I did not have a DDay; I had no external "motivation" to change. I could have kept my A going in some fashion but I finally decided to change by my own volition. If anything, I could argue that my motivation for change is more genuine than most other WS.

That being said, that doesn't make me better than any other WS. If you read my posts to anyone else, I do not resort to name calling or labelling someone. Yes some WS deserve a 2x4 from time to time but I don't really agree with the "Spare the rod and spoil the child approach". Iit is counterproductive. You can be stern with someone without resorting to belittling them.

If the posting is too harsh or too real. The poster just has to say to a particular poster. Don't post. I don't like the approach.

How do we know they leave?

The issue with this approach is, at a minimum, it can cause the member to stop posting. Again speaking from my POV, reading the posts on SI was not enough, I needed feedback from others. Having someone stay in the shadows because they are too afraid to post is a detriment to those seeking help. I think its our job as people who have been on the infidelity path help those just starting out. I try and take the same approach as I do with parenting. Screaming at your child and telling them that their flawed human beings will accomplish nothing except alienating them.

Daddydom

I'm not sure that people forget what it is like to be a new person here, but I do agree that sometimes the welcome messages can be very harsh. Often it's a matter of how people walk in the door.

I can concede that many WS have not forgotten how they were upon arrival at SI but it does appear that way at times. Harsh and angry responses are to be expected from BS, but I feel is a bit hypocritical of WS delivering the same kind of message. I can still remember how much of a mess I was when I arrived. At one point very early on, I was seriously contemplating taking my life and my intent was pretty apparent in what I was posting. Yet the barrage continued. I was fortunate enough that another member here reached out to me and talked me down. Had this person not done that, I may very well have carried it out.

My point in all of this rambling is WS should try and show a little more empathy in how they deliver their message. It's true that there are some WS who come here for reasons other than change, but I think a good portion recognize what they did (at least at some level). That group has a genuine desire to "right the ship"; making this place of healing unwelcoming benefits no one.

If there is a wrong way or it is done wrong, then I would think the mods would step in.

I have no doubt they will. But, that's not what I was getting at. I think we should use good judgment when swinging.

Zug, you are one of our most helpful voices around here. I don't think I have ever read one of your posts and thought 'what an ass' I appreciate your directness because it's refined.

It's not the style.

You know as well as I do that for some reason you enjoy swinging.

No, I don't. I do hope that by giving reality checks WS face themselves change and stop putting their BS through shit. It has nothing to do with enjoyment at all. Just hope. If it doesn't help, then I know there are others here to help as well.

Just as I enjoy giving the bandaids.

I would believe this. It builds your ego. Is it selfish or selfless motivations? I know I have worked on myself long enough to know my motivations don't come from selfish intentions. You are newly WS, so I would expect yours to be as was I 5 years ago.

You seem to be quick reality checks here on newbs posts.

What else would I do if I see someone lying to themselves or making bad decisions based on being here for this long? Of course I will give them the truth.

Are you possibly competing with other waywards to see who has the most recovery knowledge?

Hardly. I give credit to many older WS that do better than I. Hikingout and Daddydon who have been here less time than myself.

Do you care that little about people that are in their weakest life moments that you can’t show them kindness even through ‘just the internet’? And for someone who says ‘it’s just the internet’ you seem to spend a decent amount of time here, so you must think it important and enjoy Giving your input, or 2x 4’s.

Spot on. I think it is important to see and know the truths of infidelity, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Is it possibly bc you’re really still mad at yourself for having an A so the hitting with 2x4s is a form of punishing yourself?

Nope. Forgave myself a long time ago.

Or I s it possible that swinging 2x4’s replaced your past devious affair behavior?

No. Though I already said that it could be more like a Clockwork Orange thing. Making sure I was never that commiserating, not hold accountable, enabling someone to lie to themselves, encourage one to sit in their shit type of thing. Never step over that line of KISA. But, honestly it is more- we are adults and some posters want to be treated like children. No I would not be that harsh on my children. Already been asked that in the past. Because they are children. I am stern with my children, but not the level I am here.

What I do know is that you definitely get some reinforcement (positive or negative, only you can answer) out of your reality checks or you wouldn’t keep doing it.

This I would expect a new WS to say. Because things are observed from a self centered POV. What can I get out of it. The situation doesn't work because the narrative on intentions is wrong and I understand why. You are still new. Haven't gotten it yet. Still motivated mostly by regret from the posts you have made. It is all about what people get or gain.

I tried to be as tough in my approach as I could bc that’s how you said you learn best.

Exactly. Truthful and honest. Blunt. It is how I learn best. It is how some do learn best. So, for those that do- my approach works. That is why it takes all types to make this site work. That is why communicating and just saying (get the backbone is part of some waywards problem)..don't post on my posts. Your approach is wrong for me.

There is nothing wrong with my approach. It is simple and direct. It is just wrong for you. Nothing wrong with that. How many members here? Bound to be a few that are going to clash and differ in opinion on the best way to approach newbies or those that have been here longer.

Like I said. It works for some and not for others. I also agree with 2timesunfaithful.

In her book, "No Time To Lose", Pema Chodron writes:

"Getting feedback is sometimes the only way to discover our 'blind spots', especially when that feedback stings. Whether it's meant to be mean or hurtful, feedback has a way of getting us to look at things we don't want to see. If we resent it, or close our ears, our blind spots will never be revealed"

Blind spots are our habitual ways of being in the world and we are mostly unaware of them. When we get an emotional reaction from feedback (in the form of a 2x4) that is the time to pay attention, because it is showing us that which is hidden in our blind spots.

Being able to recognize our blind spots is necessary for growth and healing.

And, if you can't handle getting 2x4's by strangers on the Internet, how in the world do you think you will be able to handle the negative emotional reactions of your BS??

Not everyone is everyone’s cup of tea. Some give advise on here that I don’t like their style but someone else can say it in a different way and I receive it better. I have seen 2 x 4s on here that don’t sound mean or harsh. I think it’s all about how the 2 x 4 is given.