SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So... there was one time I was at a dive bar, and felt the urge to go number two. I was out with friends I hadn't seen in a long time and was mentally calculating whether the bar bathroom was clean enough, how long I could hold it, other places I could go to the bathroom on the way back if the walk back to the room ended up increasing the urgency, when some lady thought I was staring at her and her husband came to ask if I had a problem.

I said no, course and went to go take a poo in one of the worst bathrooms I've ever gone in.

We women usually do consider if we look respectful or not.

Maybe people care too much about how others look and not enough about how people act.

^ YES, these. Especially the second one.

it was enjoyable for me to see her power over other men

Her power over other men? Or yours? Or both, like an affirmation of you two as a team?

I'd wear a tank top to a grocery store (after the gym, for example). People stared. I didn't get mad, I knew that was going to happen, and, if I'm honest with myself, I kind of liked it. But of course people gawk in those situations, I'm "showing it off" and people react to that, if they want to or not in a lot of cases.

So you've experienced some of it too. Have you ever been called a slut because of what you were wearing? Has anyone ever put an inappropriate hand on you? Have you ever been assaulted? Can you imagine if you have been, and then being told that you asked for it because you were wearing a tank top? Because you were looking for attention, so why be surprised that someone acted on it?

Can you imagine what those messages would do to you over time?

Even, at the worst impact of the staring urge, where someone is physically drooling, it still is not action.

And that, NTV, is where it's not always the case. You're a decent person, so for you, looking and action are two different things. But for us? Our husbands did not stop at looking. They took action. They cheated.

Or, in other cases, we were groped or stalked or harassed or assaulted. People crossed our boundaries and did not stop at looking. And then blamed us for their choices to cross those boundaries.

You're a decent, good person, so you can separate looking and action. For a lot of us here, looking is triggering, because it led to actions in the past. We're on our guards, wanting to make sure it doesn't happen again. And things escalate quickly. So it makes sense to be suspicious and on edge with looking, since it's the first sign that alerts us.

What I'm curious about, for both you and RIO, is: before they became waywards, did your wives look at other men a lot? And do they look at other men a lot now?

Since I am alone a lot, it is SUPER creepy and sometimes threatening when this happens.

^ This.

For a lot of us here, looking is triggering, because it led to actions in the past. We're on our guards, wanting to make sure it doesn't happen again. And things escalate quickly. So it makes sense to be suspicious and on edge with looking, since it's the first sign that alerts us.

Yeppity yep yep yep.

What I'm curious about, for both you and RIO, is: before they became waywards, did your wives look at other men a lot? And do they look at other men a lot now?

No, not really. As I think about it the staring urge seems mostly a male thing. I know women who look at men, but it never seemed to come from the same place.

But for us? Our husbands did not stop at looking. They took action. They cheated.

I completely understand why its a trigger. I said that earlier. And I also said that it is something that could be controlled, just that it wouldn't be easy.

Or, in other cases, we were groped or stalked or harassed or assaulted. People crossed our boundaries and did not stop at looking. And then blamed us for their choices to cross those boundaries.

And those dudes should get whatever jail time they deserve. And some sort of forehead branding.

There are just as many fucked up dudes out there as there are women. Some women like attention. Even to the point they like being touched by strangers. Some women have sexual assault fantasies they want their significant other to enact. A lot of single women play games. I've seen women lead a fella on and then call the police on him for something she asked for. I've seen others say no in a way that clearly means yes. It's a blurred line in some cases, for single dudes.

I'm not saying anyone is ever right to do those things. I'm saying that the fucked parts of it swing both ways sometimes, and there are men and women that take advantage.

What is socially acceptable is learned socially. Or failed to be learned in some cases.

Which is double true for looking. As a dude, I have a biological urge to look. I have socially been taught when it is and isn't acceptable and for how long.

If his looking is bothering you, make him training it out a requirement for reconciliation. He will either be successful or fail. I've given my honest standpoint on how difficult it would be for me personally to train out. But I'm not all dudes. Other dudes might find it easier. Also, physical discipline comes into play. If I were right out of boot camp, it would be much easier to train myself to do it.

I want to make sure here that it is understood I am not defending it. I am explaining where it comes from, why its there, how impacted I am by it, how it could be overcome... if you view the action as an bad guy, I'm giving you the psych profile to catch it and lock it up. If it is a wild animal you're hunting, I'm the wiki page telling you what type of behavior, habitat, migration takes place as well as the best snare to use.

Take the info or leave it. Your choice.

Sorry Ladies, I guess I've been doing this all wrong for years. I look simply because to me most all of you are beautiful in some way or another. I can understand how we make you scared or feel vulnerable, in some ways that must be how prey feels. I am thoroughly aware of the feeling because during H.S. I felt that way because I was a minority in school and was skinny and slow. (when I graduated I was 6' 1 1/2" and 145 lbs now I'm 6'2" 205 lbs.

I have had Ladies cross the street to avoid me simply because I'm a large male and therefore threatening. I have NEVER physically hurt a woman!!! I NEVER will. (both my mom and dad would rise from their graves and whup my a$$ if I did!!)

In fact I have a severe KISA problem. My hobby after the divorce was when women had a partner that didn't understand the meaning of the words "Leave me alone" I was MORE than happy to intervene and set the man straight!! (Either vertically or horizontally his choice).

I also never do it that badly when my wife is present mainly to protect her feelings. Also because I am very demonstrative in my love of my wife. We hold hands and I love to stop in a store and just kiss her just because that is why I married her!! She is the love of my wife and I let everybody know.

A man that worked with me once told my wife that I was the ONLY guy in the office that told their wife on the phone (and I'm naturally LOUD!!) that I love her! She smiled a lot that day.

I did not pick my AP for ANYTHING but revenge, she was ex's older (2 yrs) sister.

So to all the Ladies that might have taken my looking in the wrong way I humbly apologise for causing negative feelings, I was only admiring your beauty.

P.S. One time I was thinking that I wish I could get women to look at me the way I look at them. Then I thought about all I would have to do. I came up with this, NO I do not want to have to SHAVE my legs OR my armpits (have enough trouble shaving the parts of my face that I do shave ) I'm NOT plucking my eyebrows, although now that I'm getting old I might have to, NO make-up, NO dresses (I am Irish so I'm not doing Kilts either) to worry about who sees what! I finnally figured out I'm too lazy to EVER cut it as a woman!!! JMO YMMV

If you are a fairly well endowed male then you will get the crotch looks and it is shameless it seems to me.

I don't know what it's like for ladies with big boobs. I prefer a more petite type. But I have 'caught' female friends and others having a look. Doesn't bother me to be honest. They ain't getting it.

t/j. We had a band play at our house several years ago and after they quit playin (very late) the lead guitarist pulled out a stuffed sock from his crotch!!! I thought I was going to die laughing.

end t/j

Edit to add; So Ladies "padding" apparently goes both ways!!

[This message edited by Candyman66 at 1:08 PM, July 7th (Saturday)]

So you've experienced some of it too. Have you ever been called a slut because of what you were wearing? Has anyone ever put an inappropriate hand on you? Have you ever been assaulted? Can you imagine if you have been, and then being told that you asked for it because you were wearing a tank top? Because you were looking for attention, so why be surprised that someone acted on it?

No, I've been called gay though. That's the male way of shaming other men for wearing clothes like that. Women have never said anything to me, but, for all I know, they could be thinking "gay bodybuilder".

Yes, women have touched me inappropriately. I don't think it was because of what I was wearing, but, I suppose it could have been.

Yes, I've been assaulted a few times by men, once by women.

No, I can't imagine being told I asked for it because of a tank top. I can imagine being made fun of/shamed/etc if I was really drunk and went home with a very unattractive woman because it happened to me a few times. "Dude, you need to stop drinking so much, your a lightweight, that was a great pick last night, etc". I think that's the closest I can come to "you asked for it" but I doubt there's a real parity be drawn here. Women might enjoy looking at attractive men, but it doesn't have the same effect on most of them that it does men. Hence not may Playgirl subscriptions sold compared to Playboy, as a quick example.

I can imagine if I came home from being somewhere "inappropriate" with a tank top on (which is basically only the grocery store because it's on the way home from the gym) and told my wife "someone hit on me at the grocery store" she'd say to me "what do you expect walking around dressed like that"? Again, I don't think this is parity with women, it's just not the same because seeing some "skin" doesn't seem to have anywhere near the effect on women that it does men. But I know people look/leer at me sometimes, and if I came home and told me "everyone was looking at me in the grocery store" she'd probably laugh at me and say "that's in your head" or what I said earlier "what did you expect going in there looking like that"?

When I was first married, we had to go to my husband's work BBQ. I was brand new and had not met my husband's boss yet. When we arrived, I knew exactly who he was...they creepy dude staring at me for wayyyyy too long, NOT a glance, a STARE. Ugh... Here we go. THESE GUYS ARE SO SCRIPTED.

I knew I would eventually be introduced and I would have to *play the game that females often have to play in these sorts of situations.* That meant, I pretended to not know he was staring. Upon introduction, I had to muster a slight giggle at his creepy compliments that really were falling flat. But because I didn't want to embarrass him or my husband, I went along with it. I was being polite.

Things progress. I was left alone for a few secs while husband went to grab us some beers. As predicted, boss comes over and decides it is joke time...cuz he is the funniest guy in the world now (due to my fake giggle.) He tells a very borderline dirty joke, but I laugh and brush it off. If I were to make a scene, people would think I was crazy or rude or a bitch... and make things quite difficult for my husband after that. It just isn't worth it.

You should know that I swear like a sailor and have some of the BEST dirty jokes around... Also, I was wearing jeans and a crewneck t-shirt.

Even though I SHOULD'VE stopped him cold, it was better for me to "manage" the situation. I continue to manage the situation almost 20 years later when we run into him. He and about 10 other men that I have repeated the same courtesy with. It is tiring after awhile. My husband is unaware this goes on.

I have NO doubt that some women crave that attention...and DRESS for it. But not all and you should be certain which is which before you go down that path. We smile back because we don't want to be called a bitch. We nod or giggle a little because we don't want to be rude.

I carry a couple weapons with me when I am in the backcountry and it is not for fear of critters. It is for the guy I passed a mile back with the weird stare and vibe he put off. And now I gotta wonder if he is turning around to follow me or did he move on? I wear hiking shorts and a tank top because it is 90 degrees out not because I want attention.

You may think these are extreme cases but I can assure you it happens WAY more often than you might guess. I usually go into auto mode and do what I need to do in order to mitigate the issue.

And no, I do not think all men are this way. For the good and decent men out there, please believe that this happens...

It is a scary world sometimes.

have some of the BEST dirty jokes around..

......waiting patiently....

LOL...

I also believe that woman want to be noticed, but that it's socially unacceptable to admit that...

Don’t assume people dress to be noticed. Don’t assume people dress to be gawked at. Be respectful to others but more importantly be respectful to your partner. That’s my opinion.

I have NO doubt that some women crave that attention...and DRESS for it. But not all and you should be certain which is which before you go down that path. We smile back because we don't want to be called a bitch. We nod or giggle a little because we don't want to be rude.

Yes, SOME women do dress to get sexual attention. But ask yourself why... I USED TO dress to get sexual attention when I was younger. I did so because from the age of about 3 years old I was told through word and deed (LOTS of traumatic sexual abuse) that my sexuality = my worth. It's all I was good for. I would only be deemed worthy if men leered at me and "wanted me".

So when men attempt to justify their leering with the excuse "Well she dressed that way for a reason" it's really REALLY sad to me. YES, she did... because she is injured and broken inside! She believes those ego kibble will prove her worth.

Do ya really want to be the guy to validate that message in a woman's head and heart??? Do ya??

I suppose thats why its not okay with me anymore. He was suppose to be mine and I was always confident in that. Thats gone so now when he looks at other women, in my mind, it isn't just appreciation for someone who is beautiful but he only wants me but a potential target for his affection.

Now I know he was open for it, so whomever he is looking at, if they returned the appreciation, could be trouble?

^^^ Yup. We just discussed this last night regarding the situation I mentioned earlier in this thread. WH was telling me how he was advising a co-worker on how to show respect for his GF by not gawking at other women. Seemed like a good time to bring it up.

I told him how I now had these thoughts stuck in my head... what if she DID suddenly return his dreamy eyed stare?? I now KNOW how vulnerable our relationship is to other women.

I want to make sure here that it is understood I am not defending it. I am explaining where it comes from, why its there, how impacted I am by it, how it could be overcome..

NTV, thank you for not defending it. Honestly, I can't imagine what it must be like for a man to live in society today. Men are trained from a very young age what constitutes a "beautiful" woman and that those women are meant to be on display for them. It was really hard as a mom of two boys to raise them to respect women and not see them as sexual objects. My mantra (with regard to respect) when they were teens was "Treat every girl the way you want men to treat your mother". One of my boys told me recently that it's still stuck in his head regarding the respect he shows his wife, so I guess it worked for one of them.

"If you are a fairly well endowed male then you will get the crotch looks "

I have never ever done this. seriously? how on earth would someone even know?

As I think about it the staring urge seems mostly a male thing.

It might be or it might not be, I'm not one to know. I get extremely anxious around people and look at the ground when I'm out most of the time.

I asked that question because I wondered if it was something you saw in your wives but didn't mind. But if you haven't been in the same situation - well, I could be wrong, but I might imagine your perspective would be different if your wife openly ogled other men for years while out with you, then had her A, then continued to openly ogle other men while out with you. I would guess it would trigger you and feel disrespectful to you. But I don't know. You say that you understand how it's a trigger, so I'm guessing you'd probably have a similar reaction.

And those dudes should get whatever jail time they deserve. And some sort of forehead branding.

I wish. In my own experiences, not a single one of them ever spent a day in jail or even a second with the police, even the times I reported what happened. The survivors shoulder the consequences more often than not.

Though, let's be creative. What should be branded on their foreheads? I say it should be gender neutral, so we can brand male and female predators equally.

I want to make sure here that it is understood I am not defending it. I am explaining where it comes from, why its there, how impacted I am by it, how it could be overcome... if you view the action as an bad guy, I'm giving you the psych profile to catch it and lock it up. If it is a wild animal you're hunting, I'm the wiki page telling you what type of behavior, habitat, migration takes place as well as the best snare to use.

Take the info or leave it. Your choice.

I'll take the info. Thank you for sharing it from your perspective, NTV. It does help to know your mentality. The only caveat I would have is this: you're describing what you say is a male urge. True, our WHs are male. But they're very different from you. They lack the boundaries that you have. So wouldn't it follow that they're looking in a different way than you are, from a different frame of mind? Honest question.

Yes, women have touched me inappropriately. I don't think it was because of what I was wearing, but, I suppose it could have been.

Yes, I've been assaulted a few times by men, once by women.

I'm sorry that happened to you, RIO. And NO, it had nothing to do with what you were wearing. You have no control over other people's lack of boundaries. Period.

I can imagine being made fun of/shamed/etc if I was really drunk and went home with a very unattractive woman because it happened to me a few times.

What was your reaction to your friends' making fun? For that matter, do you see hooking up with a "very unattractive woman" as something to be ashamed of?

I can imagine if I came home from being somewhere "inappropriate" with a tank top on (which is basically only the grocery store because it's on the way home from the gym) and told my wife "someone hit on me at the grocery store" she'd say to me "what do you expect walking around dressed like that"?

Has this ever happened to you? Has she said something like this? If you came home and said this, especially if you were upset or shaken by what happened, and she responded that way, I would see this as victim-blaming from her. I would be concerned about her lack of concern or empathy for you. If this hasn't happened before, what makes you think she would respond that way?

More importantly, how do their wives feel when they're stared at?

Now I have to ask her! I thought I knew the answer, in my mind, why wear something like that if you didn't want to be noticed by men? So, I have my homework. :)

How did this conversation go with her? What did she say?

My mantra (with regard to respect) when they were teens was "Treat every girl the way you want men to treat your mother". One of my boys told me recently that it's still stuck in his head regarding the respect he shows his wife, so I guess it worked for one of them.

Love this!!!!

let's be creative. What should be branded on their foreheads? I say it should be gender neutral, so we can brand male and female predators equally.

Well, my idea was gonna be the outline of the side view of a flaccid penis and one testicle, but if we're going with the whole gender neutral thing, I'm coming up with nothing. Maybe a rear end? Eh, that wouldn't work.

Plus, what happens with false accusations? Plenty of those too. And they distract from responses to real situations that need responses.

This thread just flashed to mind. Had the dubious pleasure of listening to my H wax poetic over the v-muscles in Ronda Rousey's hip area... Turn off. Then he started proclaiming how much he loves me and I'm the only woman in his eyes... Bigger turn off, cuz it's an obvious lie.

Solution (for me at least): don't fall in love.

When you consider how there are half-nude women everywhere, especially in media, especially in movies, and you can tell that they're selling whatever they're selling to guys, to get and keep their attention, well... It's everywhere. Guys are offered visual feasts of half-nude women everywhere they go. I suppose it would be dishonest to expect a guy never to see them. Or to never be attracted.

I can accept that. I just probably won't be falling in love. When I fall in love, it has the annoying side effect of me wanting to be the only woman in said guy's eyes, the way he's the only guy in mine. But with the media the way it is, the movies the way they are, and people everywhere, well, I never will be. I never CAN be. That's an impossible dream not worth keeping. Not fair to him to expect that. Not fair to me to fall in love when I won't be cherished by him the way I cherish him - that's just asking to get hurt.

/vent