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I read an article once that interviewed Chicago attorneys anonymously. The interviews were done on the heals of research that said men tie professional success to sexual entitlement. These very successful attorneys described a culture of celebrating big wins in big cases with elaborate parties and escorts. They said escorts were not just expected, they had been earned.

When very wealthy men feel professionally powerful, they equate that with earning sexual rewards.

I have never seen nor been made aware of any women desiring this type of status symbol or bonus. I just don't know, and I don't get it.

When very wealthy men feel professionally powerful, they equate that with earning sexual rewards.

I could have told them that without conducting any interviews at all. :) No crap. I'd go further and say that one of the reasons that men desire to be rich is specifically for sexual access/rewards. This is a bit of an aside, but there's something very interesting going on in Japan (and a few other places) where men are eschewing their drive for women (herbivore men) and spending their days doing other things. Now, in and of itself, that's pretty darn interesting to me (because, how??) but, in relation to this discussion, what's more interesting is what these men typically spend their days doing (because they're not chasing women). It's not building companies, it's not being a professional superstar, it's not becoming a sports hero. No, it's sitting home, playing video games, and making no moves to "start a real life". If you saw the movie "Failure to Launch" it's kind of like that, stay with Mom and Dad, take a low stress job and just kind of "skate by".

How is this in any way related? Well, because I'd advance as a theory that the drive to succeed in men is inexorably linked in men to the drive to sleep with women. Sure, when I started my career, money, cars, a nice house, those were all interesting to me. But what was really interesting and motivating to me was not being a "loser" and having more sexual access to women. I would have been just fine driving a 10 year old car and with old faded clothes from high school; I bought a new car and new clothes (especially the clothes) to impress women. It was the core motivator for me to succeed. Yes, there were others, so it's not as simple as a 1-1 relationship. But, pretty quickly in my career I reached the point of satiety; I had all the "stuff" I wanted, I had a decent place to live, and a job I didn't hate. But I kept pushing and climbing, looking to generate more and more excess wealth. And, if I think about it, a big part of the reason I did that was to use that wealth to attract women. If you'd taken away that goal, my life would have been very different; my career climb would have stopped several rungs lower and I'd be looking to maximize my free time and recreation rather than my income. And that, IMHO, is exactly what we're seeing in herbivore men.

These very successful attorneys described a culture of celebrating big wins in big cases with elaborate parties and escorts.

This is the world I live in. Sometimes, when I post here and describe it and most of the board tells me "Your nuts, that's not how it is" I scratch my head. And no, I'm not a rich/powerful attorney, but I know them, and I run in those circles. It seems like every few years another "scandal" breaks, IT guys are the most recent (Brotopia; a new book published about Silicon Valley culture), but it's a long list. Attorneys, doctors, military. Any career where you couple money, power and influence together, well.. The results are pretty similar. Especially if that industry has few/no women, when men are with other men, things change dramatically and the "real" desires are laid bare quickly.

I have never seen nor been made aware of any women desiring this type of status symbol or bonus. I just don't know, and I don't get it.

Just like women don't hire prostitutes and men don't buy 5,000 dollar handbags, we're just different. IMHO, and I know others disagree, this is simply another illustration of the difference in sex drive between your average man and woman. Men get power/money, what do they want to buy (either directly or indirectly)? More sex. Women get power/money, they buy other things because more sex holds little/no value to them. If it did (in equal proportion) you'd see an equally sized market for Adonis looking men for hire. That market is so small it's the stuff of movie comedy; and it tells you a lot about the sexual marketplace between men and women.

men must desire sex a lot more than I think they do.

My wh was loyal when successful but the first time he failed professionally, out came the wiener. He made a series of bad decisions, including the affair. So he told her that he was very successful and “winning” in order to make himself feel good. She tried to bj her way into a better tax bracket. Things continued to get worse in every part of his life. And of course mine.

Since the big blow up and discovery, he has been taken a look at his choices, the people in his life, what drives him. He’s cleaning that up and it’s once again paying off. Bringing shit in brings more shit in. He’s the example of the man with the ego bucket that can never be filled.

I’m around a lot of very wealthy (self made business) people too. Some are happy, some not. The happiest ones are the ones who have boundaries and live authentically. I’ve admired and emulated them. They are constantly hounded by people who want to tap into their success, and the ones with good boundaries handle that accordingly. The ones who need the ego stroke fumble.

Money does soften the blow though, and I’ve seen that in divorces. It enables a complete new start, which when you’ve been discarded, is helpful. All material things can be replaced and new associations to everyday things can start, and twice a week therapy is a luxury too. My girlfriends who are stuck in the marital home struggle with the memories, neighbors, holidays, a constant hum, day in day out. So in that sense, endless money is better.

Men get power/money, what do they want to buy (either directly or indirectly)? More sex. Women get power/money, they buy other things because more sex holds little/no value to them

I don't think I fully understood this truth until I came here, even though I joked about it for years. But yes, there is something there, something very different between men and women that does impact what happens around the subject of infidelity.

when men are with other men, things change dramatically and the "real" desires are laid bare quickly.

I have also realized this, although I find it very disconcerting.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:04 AM, January 13th (Sunday)]

So, why would Bezos (or any man) pursue an actual relationship rather than beautiful escorts, if money and power make him feel entitled?

Seems like a lot of strings attached, so if sex is the motive, why go through all that drama?

And an even better question, does Bezos think he loves his AP right now? Or is he gaming her? And if so, why?

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:18 AM, January 13th (Sunday)]

Same question. Do men EVER get emotionally attached or is it just sex? From what some ppl here at, it’s always the sex for men and I have a hard time believing that.,

So, why would Bezos (or any man) pursue an actual relationship rather than beautiful escorts, if money and power make him feel entitled?

Because escorts are looked down on by society. "I banged a hot escort last night" isn't nearly the brag that "Sally from accounting blew me behind the mens room" is. Power is all about getting things without asking or paying for them; that's a big part of it, IMHO. If the stigma wasn't there, I suspect you'd see male infidelity rates go up and female go down; men would cheat more with prostitutes and not pursue "regular women" as much. I will say, when you travel to places where it's legal, particularly Asian countries, it's quite common and popular as "entertainment" for men.

And an even better question, does Bezos think he loves his AP right now? Or is he gaming her? And if so, why?

Who knows. It's certainly possible. It's also certainly possible this is just the first time he's been caught. And that he's used prostitutes before and this is his first A with a civilian. It's always very hard for me to believe, when you see these big splashy headlines that this is the "the first". Usually the story trickles out; oh yeah, and there was that time he was photographed with 6 women in the VIP room.. And that hot assistant that suddenly quit and got a 3M dollar settlement. And that housekeeper that they fired suddenly. That's the typical progression of cases like this, maybe not JB, who knows, he might be the exception.

I have also realized this, although I find it very disconcerting.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry that's how so many men are. But the important takeaway, if you don't want to be that subject of joke at the bar, don't be the AP!! I've NEVER heard a man joke about his wife's lazy eye (actual conversation), her smelly vagina (another actual conversation), or relate stories of "kicking her out as soon as I finished so I could get back to work" (another actual conversation). Nope, all these discussions/brags/bravado are for AP's, not for wives. If you don't want to be that person, don't be the AP, it's that simple. And if you are the AP, expect that there's a good chance that your being talked about this way, you're pictures and "intimate thoughts" are being shared and the other men there are angling to be "next" to take a run at you. But that doesn't have to be you, there are attractive women in my workplace, and while, occasionally, something like "Did you see what Sally was wearing the other day, OMG, I'd kill that" will be said, it's a lot rarer than discussion about girls who these men are actually sleeping with. Just because they'd sleep with Sally in a heartbeat doesn't change the fact they respect Sally's work, her ethics, her abilities, etc. Now, if they do wind up sleeping with Sally? She will almost certainly fall in the "AP bucket" and become the subject of gossip/laughs and scorn.

You know, all this sounds awful, but also, you know what? My mother told me all this when decades ago when I was a young man. So while I might be putting it differently, it seems like this is kind of "common knowledge" for women (that some men think/act like this), isn't it? And, the final thing, notice the "some men" in that statement. Yes, it's only some men. But by entering into an A, you've self-selected into that exact group. No, not always, but, yes, most of the time (IMHO). I wish I could draw a Venn diagram on here, but let's say, in my experience, the diagram with male AP's on it and men who use/discard women is nearly a perfect overlap.

Do men EVER get emotionally attached or is it just sex? From what some ppl here at, it’s always the sex for men and I have a hard time believing that.

For affairs, my wife was attached. None of the men I know who've had affairs ever claimed to be or seemed to be attached. So, speaking personally, it's 100% of women and 0% of men. ;) I'm sure the numbers aren't that, occasionally men do get attached and occasionally women have an A for just sex. I think both are rare. 1%, 5%, 10%? I don't know, but I'd be very surprised if the number was higher than about 10% (for both sexes).

For regular relationships I can speak more from personal experience. I dated a lot before I met my wife, I'm not sure the exact number, but let's hazard a guess at 50 women from HS until I met my wife/married. I loved 2 of them, my wife, and a on/off GF from college. And, of course, the love I have for my W is so different, it's hard to compare them, but I do recall thinking, many years ago, "wow, I love her" (about my college GF) and being surprised. I didn't feel that again until I met my W. So, using those numbers, about 4% of the time I dated/slept with a woman I was in love with her.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 8:44 AM, January 13th (Sunday)]

Ok, so then what did the messages from my h to his AP mean... all the I love yous back and forth between them. He has no explanation, he says he doesn't know if he loved her. Was that all just likely nothing?

I find the explanations of male thought processes fascinating. Somewhat comforting.

He is military. They are definitely different in a mostly or all male environment. I am a bit envious of it, actually.

Ok, so then what did the messages from my h to his AP mean... all the I love yous back and forth between them. He has no explanation, he says he doesn't know if he loved her. Was that all just likely nothing?

Well, to avoid generalizing, I'll continue my story. As I supposed before, I loved about 4% of the women I dated. But, how many did I say "I love you" to? 50-75% would be a reasonable guess.

Let me put it another way. Why do so many women (WW's) come on here and tell us that they didn't even really want the sex from their A? It's a lot of them, that's for sure. They wanted the other things, the nice words, someone to talk to, the excitement of a dirty secret. But very few were in it just for the sex, the did that to get the other things that the A brought to them.

So why say "I love you" to women I didn't love? Because that's what they wanted to hear. That's what they needed to start/continue having sex with me. Same reason my wife acted the part of a nympho/sex goddess during her A, because that's just what you do if you want to keep a male AP coming around and delivering ego kibbles. Same thing dating, it's a social norm, a niceness we extend to one another to make the other person feel comfortable and accepting to escalation of physical contact.

You know how when you meet someone you might say "Very nice to meet you"? Well, who the heck knows if you really want to meet that person at all. It might be a disaster to have met them. I said exactly that to my W's AP when I first met him (before the A, of course). It wasn't "nice to meet him" at all. He was a bit of bore in person, his wife had nothing in common with mine and we had little to talk about. But we still say it, all the time, even though most of the people we say it to, in fact, aren't at all "nice to meet".

The same thing with "I love you". It's a social norm (especially when you are younger) before sex. It doesn't actually mean anything in most cases, and, I honestly thought that everyone knew that (I was terribly wrong in this). But people don't know that and do attach meanings to the words. I very rarely thought "say I love you, she'll sleep with you", it was more just like one of the things you did to move a relationship along. All of this, BTW, I've come to realize was a HUGE mistake, but, this is how I thought about it at the time.

In an A, of course, this gets perverted and twisted even further. It's no longer about a "social niceness" it's "what can I say to get her panties off right now". Why do men say "I love you, your the light of my life, my wife doesn't understand me, your the only good thing I have" (and millions of other lines) to AP's? Because it works. It gets them sex. If it was as simple as "wanna f**k", let me promise you, there would be a LOT less of this love babble in A's and lot more "OK, where and when" discussions. And if you'd like to see a view into that, read about gay men and their dating habits. Because there, it is as simple as "wanna f**k". And that's what happens, most of the time, both for relationships and, I'm sure, even more so in A's.

RIO my wh wasn’t attached, except for the giddy excitement at the peak of the affair. It was short , 6-8 months, no love. No indication she was attached either, and has a history of affairs.

I dated a lot, even though I met wh when I was 18. We married 8 yrs later, but weren’t “together” completely those years, we broke up, etc. I had a total blast, but I was never as attached as I was to wh, he’s the only person I’ve ever felt love for. Which is probably why I married him.

We were young and broke and starting out. We built a lot together, we were fortunate and also smart. Not Bezos level success, of course, but nice. The thought that someone could come in and take what I had built enraged me. That he could discard my contribution - 50% - to his success was bullshit. That I could give 100% to my kids and marriage and then be forced to see them less was infuriating. My focus on the family enabled his focus on his career, he agrees fully. One of the reasons I stayed was that I was not going to lose anything in my lifestyle. My whole sense of self was taking a beating, I wasn’t giving anything else up. It was a strange place to be, as an educated woman in her 40s with no career.

The mow was not going to be the recipient of our work, she was nothing to him (and vice versa). But it bugs me that they call Bezos’ money HIS money. She loved him when he was nothing, it’s theirs. During the affair, I was unaware, but confused, and often had dreams of being thrown on the street by wh, penniless. It’s when I went to a lawyer and said I thought he was being funny with money and handed over all our financials to her. I couldn’t fathom he was sleeping with an idiot, one he disparaged for her lack of looks, brains, everything. Couldn’t even fathom that she was where he spent his time. Still baffles me.

all these discussions/brags/bravado are for AP's, not for wives. If you don't want to be that person, don't be the AP, it's that simple. And if you are the AP

Being the wife around here does not feel much better. We get to keep the cheater who talked badly about his AP's smelly vagina? How is that a win?

When the news first broke I didn't know about the affair between him and the Franken-lady. But I still thought it was very sad what wealth and power have done to him/them. I looked at a photo of Jeff Bezos and his wife when they were young and they looked so HAPPY. Dorky, yes, but uninhibited and happy.

The more wealth and power you have, the harder it is to remain grounded and to remember what is really important in life. I wouldn't trade places with any of them.

if RIO is right, here's a word of advice to any man reading: try integrity. you need sex that badly that you'd lie to a woman to get it? how very pathetic.

if RIO is right, here's a word of advice to any man reading: try integrity. you need sex that badly that you'd lie to a woman to get it? how very pathetic.

And my word of advice to women. :) Realize that almost all men who show an interest in you are doing so because they want to sleep with you. Don't act surprised and shocked to find this out, especially when the man showing interest is married. If you just want sex, say so. And if you don't just want sex, don't enter into relationships that are designed exclusively to have sex (ONS's at a bar, A's, etc). Wake up and see the world that's actually around you an act accordingly.

No, men shouldn't act this way. But women shouldn't act like it's a surprise to them either; unless things have drastically changed, it's been standard "girl coming of age talk" from a father to explain "most boys just want inside your pants". It was good advice 50 years ago, and it's good advice now.

And this in no way removes sexual agency from women. If you just want a roll in the hay, by all means, go right ahead. Just don't be "shocked and hurt" that's all the guy was after. X100 if he's married, because, yes, it's almost certain with a married man that what your father told you about men is even more true when he's already married.

What a cop out, RIO - that it's up to women to know what men want, and assume everything is a lie to get them in bed. Why don't the men just say it out loud from the get go? why lie? why not lay it on the line. how very... cowardly.

that's not the message I received from my dad nor is it the message my husband gave our daughters. good grief.

any other man care to weigh in on this?

if that's the case why even get married, just move from woman to woman.

the way men live their lives doesn't support the constant need to get laid, if that's what they so need.

But women shouldn't act like it's a surprise to them either;

I am going to say what I have said many times, RIO. Men make up 50% of the population. You expect us to live on guard for most, if not all, of our lives? Not believing any kindness? Any friendship? Any assistance? We need to work, shop, vacation, form friendships, attend events, join organizations. You seem to be absolving men of all responsibility due to their primal urges and telling us to beware.

Here is my recommendation. Women do not have sex with any man until he signs over all of his property, savings, and earnings. Then, have at it

Let's see if they will somehow control their primal urges then. I'm bettin' they can.

this ^^^

Why don't the men just say it out loud from the get go? why lie? why not lay it on the line. how very... cowardly.

Because, simply put, it doesn't work. How many A's have you read about here where things started out with the male AP saying "Hey you, cutie over there, I'm married but would love to have someone to f**k on the side." About 0. Well, actually, that's not true, there's a whole section for women who've had this happen except that lovely pickup line is "enhanced" with "and I'll give you a few hundred bucks for the f**k".

Simply put, heterosexual men don't say that because it does not work. Gay men, however, do exactly that because, in their case, it does work. If it worked (got men sex) they would do it, I don't believe at all that most men enjoy lying/subterfuge and being insincere. I believe they do it because that's the method they learned that works to sleep with women. And they are right, like it or not, they are behaving in a way that lines up with what gets success vs what does not.

You seem to be absolving men of all responsibility due to their primal urges and telling us to beware.

Absolutely not, I am not absolving men of their responsibility to act ethically. I am, however, taking the world view that many men will NOT act ethically when around attractive women. I think that is a congruent world view with the people I know and the things I've seen, but, I certainly could be wrong.

And yes, I am telling you to beware. Just like I'd tell you to beware if you're walking through a dangerous neighborhood at night because you stand a good chance of getting mugged. Should you have to worry about it? No, you shouldn't. Should the men who mug you be excused for doing it? Absolutely not. Is it, however, reality that walking through some sections of DC at 11PM carrying a 5,000 dollar purse a really bad idea? Yes, it is. That statement isn't excusing the muggers of their crime it is simply stating that some men, when confronted with a woman walking alone late at night who has a 5K purse will steal it. And that's a true statement, at least in my eyes it is, and your right to be wary walking about in a tough neighborhood late at night with an expensive purse.

Having an A is entering the "tough neighborhood". You've selected into the a group of men who are looking to use women. No, not all of them, but most of them, IMHO. So, yes, you should be very wary when you enter that neighborhood because Mr. Rogers doesn't live there! That's just common sense, and it says nothing about men in general, it says something about men who are seeking/willing to have an affair. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk to Jim from accounting. It does mean that if your attractive and you think Jim finds you attractive, you probably shouldn't go out for drinks with him though.

Women are equally 50% of the population. I pretty easily make it through my day without interacting with any of them on a personal level beyond my wife. Professional interaction is fine, but if I'm looking for someone to "hang out with", then, no.. That's never going to be a woman. I attend church with women, but only attend male only prayer groups. Yes, it's 50% of the population that I don't consider for close friendship. Which sounds like a lot until you realize that there are literally billions of people who I have 0 chance of ever cheating with who can all become good friends with me. I choose not to take the risk because the reward isn't worth it to me, but that's just my personal calculus.

Here is my recommendation. Women do not have sex with any man until he signs over all of his property, savings, and earnings. Then, have at it

Let's see if they will somehow control their primal urges then. I'm bettin' they can.

You don't need to go back far to see exactly this. Yes, there was pre-martial sex "back in the day". But it was dramatically rarer than it is today. And yes, men married much earlier than they do today because, again, the access to sex is very important to them. Further, in a lot of ways, I think the world was a better place when these social constructs were in place. Yes, there was still cheating, mostly men, but it still happened. So yes, it does help control the "primal urges" I think that much is beyond refute. But, thing is, we can all dream about our perfect world or accept the world that we live in, and that world isn't at all perfect. And yes, most men showing significant interest in a woman are, at least on some level, interested in sleeping with her if she's attractive to them. Should they be? No, I think we all agree that's true. But they are, and accepting that and dealing with it is a lot better than sticking your head in the sand (which was my W's approach, incidentally).

When I caught my WH cheating online with a woman from his online recovery meeting, I emailed her (found her email in the evidence) and told her she could have him but that he'd never be a good man as long as he was with her and she was clinging to his life. I didn't want her boyfriend.

In Jeff Bezos case, it's measurable. He's now less than half the man he was, because he's not only lost half his fortune but his reputation is now public.